High End Luxury Cars

dewey · December 2005

Why own a Audi?

Audi does not have the performance/handling of a BMW or the reliability of a Lexus or the status of a Benz but
IMO they have the best "fit and finish interior quality" in the industry.

Based on that A.T Kearney study which was not performed by a bunch of flunkies as claimed by one forum member:

New and interesting exteriors draw consumers to showrooms, but it's the
interior styling that closes the deal," said Carrannanto. "For the consumer, a
vehicle interior is a lot like a living room and they have to like it before
they'll go through with the purchase."

merc1 · December 2005

Your well-worded post makes me realize that different brands are successful for different reasons. In fact it seems to me that people will actually turn to a particular brand because of the success it represents and they expect.

Yes. The disagreement comes when one side suggests that what they look for in a brand is more important than what the other side looks for. Everyone here, including me is guilty of this.

The problem, then is when a particular marque no longer represents what people expect from it. Such as, the reliability question that recently has hit MB. I believe MB will work through it, in my opinion, and I also think people buy MB for other reasons.

This is true, which is why I listed several things that Mercedes is known or prized for. This is why I think Mercedes situation has a subtle, yet clear difference to say GM's situation back in the day when the Japanese (and Europeans) were coming on strong. Mercedes still makes great car in most respects outside of absolute reliability. GM on the other hand simply ignored the competition and wished they would go away + they built some truly lousy cars to boot. I mean Mercedes aren't ugly, slow, under-engineered or unsafe, but they could use a overhaul in the reliability area for sure. Mercedes has made a many changes to remain competitive, which is one reason for the current trouble. Mercedes doesn't do cheap well. Remember the old way was to build the car with very little consideration to cost (in other words their cars were of the engineers dreams) and then let the accountants deal with pricing them to make a profit. The 2000 S-Class showed that they didn't fully understand how to build to a price. Now this new S-Class appears to be correct from a build quality point of view as does the CLS and SLK, all having wonderfully built interiors.

GM's downfall is similar to what Rolls-Royce went through before BMW bought them and gave them the funding and technical know-how to be competitive again. The car the Phantom replaced, the Silver Seraph was an antique compared to a Mercedes or Lexus or BMW, but the Phantom is state-of-the-art, but a tad bit overpriced to sell 1K units a year.

M

merc1 · December 2005

MB's boutique approach may work, for a while, but unless the fundamental issue of quality (real or perceived) are tackled and solved satisfactorily, their troubles may not be over yet.

True. I think their model approach will work also, but like you state the quality has to be there.

I'm sure BMW's free maintenance is a big draw for a lot of buyers, but more importantly BMW has stayed true to being a driver's car. That and the fact that most of their models are relatively new is what really put them in the right position.

M

merc1 · December 2005

I think I remember this being asked previously and don't remember if you commented, but have you ever tried to get a job as car mag writer?

Not seriously, no. I have written the mags before of course, even had a few letters to get published over the years.

M

dewey · December 2005

MB's boutique approach may work

I dont know how boutique and MB can be used in the same sentence. Or maybe that is because I live in Canada where Smart Cars and B200s are sold in every MB dealership.

merc1 · December 2005

Your knowledge and thoughtfulness shines through much better for me personally when it is applied in the positive. Of course, I have to quickly add the same comment applies to some other posters here as well. Everyone's thoughts get a much clearer airing when they aren't buried in diatribe.

Thanks. I agree about not being buried in diatribe, but some things I read here just send the meter into the red.

M

merc1 · December 2005

IMO they have the best "fit and finish interior quality" in the industry.

I agree. Audi just has a way of working the materials and design that just makes their cars so slick, IMO.

It should also be noted that Audi's head interior designer (Stefan Sielaff) was hired by Mercedes to do the new S-Class' interior, but now he has gone back to Audi.

M

merc1 · December 2005

Or maybe that is because I live in Canada where Smart Cars and B200s are sold in every MB dealership.

I've had some knock-down arguments with some other diehard Mercedes fans on Germancarzone about the A/B-Classes. I personally thinks Mercedes needs to kill one of them next time around. Now the A-Class is a hit in Europe with over 100K being sold in a less than a year on the market, and it seems that the B-Class has caught on too so the chances of Mercedes killing off one of them is that much slimmer now. How do the A and B-Classes sell in Canada? What do you think of them? They are the only Mercedes models I've never had the chance to see and inspect in person.

M

flyfisher1 · December 2005

I couldn't agree more about Audi's interiors. I spent an evening in a friends new BMW 545. The interior is just plain DULL. In addition, he couldn't get to the proper screen on his (idrive - is that what it's called?).
There is absolutely no comparison to my A8L. I do not know how the 7 series compares.

jjacura · December 2005

Leave for a few hours and this forum lights up like a Christmas tree! :shades:
Very active following your post. I have to compliment you on a very well thought out contribution and it reveals your vast experience and knowledge of cars period. Quite profound and as garyh1 stated...positive and without diatribe. When the host compliments you and then returns a second time to defend an issue that's pretty cool. All things considered it looks like Kudos around the board.

garyh1 · December 2005

I have completely missed your point....

Well, finally something we can agree on!

You have no justification in caliing this study crapolla unless you have access to the details of their statistical methodology.

Gee, how many times do I have to say something before you will acknowledge it? Here are some quotes from my posts:

But this "study", at least as reported here, seems pretty lame.

On further reflection, "lame" is probably too kind a term for this study (again, at least as reported here).

Based on the summary provided, it's so flawed as a study...

Somehow, I don't think that looking at a few JD Power surveys and some Ward's sales reports constitutes ATK's best work. But as you pointed out and as I stated multiple times, I am only going on what this summary said. But note that this was a press release issued by ATK itself, not some newspaper reporter who didn't know what was being talked about.

And by the way, I don't recall anyone using the word "flunkies" except you, and a search of this forum only picks up this post of yours and the next post where you stated "Based on that A.T Kearney study which was not performed by a bunch of flunkies as claimed by one forum member...." You totally made this concept up and then quote it as fact! I certainly never said that. However, having spent part of my early professional career in high profile management consulting, I can say from personal observation that not all work done by these organizations is of equal high quality.

ljflx · December 2005

GaryH - perfectly stated. The report is worth less than the paper it's printed on. If they are using that survry to call attention to themselves than they wasted money and made themselves look bad and unprofessional at the same time. A double whammy.

lexusguy · December 2005

"I really think that if Toyota (not Lexus) had a drop in reliability like Mercedes or VW have had they'd sink much faster because that is what they mainly depend on. It surely isn't design or the driving experience."

I totally agree. This is exactly what Katsuaki Watanabe (Toyota's current CEO) has been saying recenetly. "We're not leading anymore, why not?" The one thing I like about Watanabe is that he's definitely not afraid to say whats on his mind. I dont remember Hideaki Otaka being nearly as vocal.

The difference between, say MB or VW and Toyota is focus. VW let Piech run wild, and he nearly brought down the entire company in the process. Mr. Schremp did basically the same thing at Mercedes. Porsche buying VW shows that the board is still not looking at reality.

Toyota is in full expansionist global conquest mode, but they havent lost focus on the details. Toyota doesn't have any serious quality problems yet, and they are going to make sure that things are fixed before those problems ever get a chance to develop. Toyota is like the Maytag of cars. Sure, they are appliances, but damn good ones. Thats what the vast majority of the car buying public wants, and Toyota is happy to do it better than everyone else. Let Honda, Nissan, Mazda, and Subaru divide the "fun" market among themselves.

Speaking of which, I think the new synergy with Subaru is really going to help both companies. Toyota now has an easy path to an AWD Camry and Avalon, and Subaru now has a financial backer that actually has its finances in order. Subaru's flat 6 is an ok engine, but they could do wonderful things with the Toyota 3.5, that is if they're willing to have a Subaru with a "V" engine in it.

syswei · December 2005

Very well said and I'm in total agreement with your post.

designman · December 2005

dewey · December 2005

I don't recall anyone using the word "flunkies

No you did not use the term flunkie but crapolla is usually produced by flunkies.

. But as you pointed out and as I stated multiple times, I am only going on what this summary said

And the summary reveals nothing about their statistical methodology. But you claimed previously that their methodology did not isolate variables?

I just based my opinion on the summary.

Discussing this topic further would be as productive as flogging a dead horse.

dewey · December 2005

How do the A and B-Classes sell in Canada? What do you think of them? They are the only Mercedes models I've never had the chance to see and inspect in person.

The A Class is not sold in Canada.

I have inspected the B Class and the interior certainly does not lack any of the high quality you find in other Benzes. I read there is more passenger space than the MB E Class.

I have never had any desire to test drive the B because it's FWD. Psychologically I cannot accept a FWD car with a Mercedes Benz logo on it.

The car that is selling really well in Canada are SMART cars. MB cannot sell enough of them. In my neighborhood I can see quite a few driveways sharing a bigger luxury marque car with a SMART fortwo car.

For myself a fourtwo would be a very practical car since I live and work in downtown Toronto. But I am not that practical.

jjacura · December 2005

Very Funny!
Lecter actually said, "I wish we could chat longer, but I'm having an old friend for dinner."

dewey · December 2005

Speaking of which, I think the new synergy with Subaru is really going to help both companies. Toyota now has an easy path to an AWD Camry and Avalon

An AWD Camry or Avalon would be a death-knell for Subaru.

A Lecter-like cannibalization of sales would benefit neither Toyota or Subaru

garyh1 · December 2005

No you did not use the term flunkie but crapolla is usually produced by flunkies.

Wow, I guess dictionaries in Canada are different than down here. :confuse:

Flogging a dead horse seems more productive...

I would think "dead horses" produce more crappola than "flunkies", but that's just IMO. :P

Finally, Dewey, I think you need to once again read that press release. They didn't do any real study. Based on their own statement, they just reviewed a couple JD Power surveys and matched them up with some sales figures from Ward's. THERE WAS NO INDEPENDENT SURVEY DONE. SO THERE WAS NO OPPORTUNITY TO ISOLATE ANY VARIABLES THAT WERE NOT INVOLVED IN THE DIFFERENT THIRD PARTY STUDIES (LIKE ADVERTISING, PROMOTION, ETC.).

Hey, if you want to buy their report, be my guest. I can tell you my firm will not!

Now we can "let sleeping dogs lie" next to those flogged dead horses....

designman · December 2005

Lecter actually said, "I wish we could chat longer, but I'm having an old friend for dinner."

Pardon my paraphrase. I was figured it wasnt exact.

docnukem · December 2005

Commonly overheard by brand:

Cadillac: I remember driving in one of these with my grandpa.

Lexus: Hey, if you look out the window you can tell we're moving.

Infiniti: Didn't we just fill up with gas?

BMW: Whoa, Mario, I'm gonna be sick...
Also: Who'd have thought an Interstate could feel like a "natural beauty" road.

Mercedes: When did the mechanic say we could get back on the road?

Audi: What kind of car was this again?

Jaguar: You know, I own a Ford, too.

Porsche: So do you really get a lot of dates with this thing?

Nothing like hyperbole and stereotyping to stir the pot....

Please understand I don't adhere to all of these mythperceptions (intentionally misspelled)...I just wanted to be sure that I was an equal-opportunity offender.

designman · December 2005

I once hammered a jughandle in my old Volvo and my father-in-law said... holy spit, does this thing have four wheels?

dewey · December 2005

OK I know CNN Money is not exactly an authority in terms of auto opinions but they rated the Audi A6 as their best pick versus the BMW 5, Infiniti M, Lexus GS and Acura RL.

Audis seem to get the short end of the stick in this forum since there seems to be very few Audi enthusiasts here.

That is a shame since Audis are such wonderful cars. The Europeans certainly knows something that we dont(A4 beats BMW3 sales and A6 sales is tied in top spot with BMW5 sales).

IMO this forum is too narrowly focused on Lexus, BMW and MB. I guess that is a reflection of fourm member biases.

CNN Money

hpowders · December 2005

Since when is to be biased defined as being passionate about one's car?

I own and love BMW's. That makes me biased?

Anybody who drives an Audi A8 can post here.

There is no conspiracy to keep Audi lovers out.

It's not my problem if only one guy here drives an Audi.

Since I have never driven an Audi, I have no opinion and certainly no bias.

tagman · December 2005

This is MY take on the Audi thing here. Just MY opinion. When I think of these different cars, I immediately have thoughts about them . . . preconceived ideas . . . as to what each of them IS somehow to ME.

The BMW most definately makes me think of a sedan with great handling, engineering, and more . . .

The Mercedes represents engineering, sophistication, and luxury to me.

To me the Lexus represents comfort, modest luxury, and almost bullet-proof dependability.

The Jaguar makes me think of gorgeous yet classic styling, luxury, and comfort.

The Audi, however, leaves me pondering momentarily. I am aware of the well-done interior, but don't seem to grasp onto any immediatley identifiable traits that just yell "Audi".

So . . . I believe that Audi needs to catch a serious case of "brand recognition". . . . or something?

TagMan

tagman · December 2005

The Audi, however, leaves me pondering momentarily. I am aware of the well-done interior, but don't seem to grasp onto any immediatley identifiable traits that just yell "Audi".

So . . . I believe that Audi needs to catch a serious case of "brand recognition". . . . or something?

Shortly after I wrote this brief remark, I wondered what company handles Audi's advertising campaign? Anyone know?

Fair or not . . . when it comes to perceptions about products (nothing to do necessarily with the truth, mind you), I ALWAYS tend to give a fair amount of credit AND blame to the ad agencies.

TagMan

anthonyp · December 2005

As most people seem interested in the other brands, and I have not had my Audi very long, I have been waiting to give an update after a bit more time has gone by and I have taken the car on a trip--next week-....So far the Audi has been the best delivered car I have owned..Everything worked right from the beginning, although I did not know how to work everything as I have a steep learning curve coming from Lexus from the beginning. The car feels very crisp and sure of itself...The only difference I feel between it and my wife`s 530xi is it is heavier therefore not quite like the bmw, but not far off..My dealership treats me very nicely--but the real test will come when something is wrong...I do not believe I could have a better relatonship than the one I had with Lexus--great people-- I personally like the interior of the Audi much better than the Lexus, as it is new, so I will comment further after time...The screen extracts itself from the dash, and I know I like that better and will continue to do so..The car warms up way way quicker inside---like two minutes or so, and the seats warm up in reacord time..Personally I like the grill, but can understand how others may not...Seems all cars have something to not like....Further I got the sports suspension and although I have not been able to compare it against the regular suspension, it is great....All in all I think anyone considering this type of car would do themselves justice to test drive the a8...It is more expensive than the Lexus but cheaper than the Mercedes, and about the same as the bmw 7 Tony Further there is very little promotion and the dealership network is way behind the others---probably contributing to the sales numbers.

tagman · December 2005

I realize that you have not had the Audi long, but right after reading your take on the car, I stopped myself from reading your post a second time. I did this on purpose to see just what it might be that I would recall about the car from your report. I remembered (regardless of accuracy) that you indicated that it did not handle as well as your wife's BMW, and that you liked the interior, and that you were getting used to the car, but you generally liked it. That's how I remembered your post.

Then, I went back and read it a second time. There was more detail, of course, but I found myself searching your words for that "something special" that the car offered you.

PLEASE do not misunderstand my post to mean ANYTHING negative about you, your post, or your car. I thank you for taking the time to share your Audi experience so far, and hope to hear more after you have it longer. I hope it turns out to be a GREAT car for you, as I would hope for anyone buying a car.

I think that your post is further indication of the lack of a well-known identifiable trait regarding the Audi. However, I will soften that statement a bit by saying that I believe there is a continuing trend towards "interior awareness" regarding the Audi, and your post also further indicates this to me.

Stay in touch.

TagMan

bdr127 · December 2005

Years ago I actually bought an A4, so I'll give you guys my take....

At the time, I needed/wanted AWD for the blizzardy New England winters. Audi was the #1 luxury brand if you wanted AWD, hands down. Since then, the other luxury brands have "caught up" and offer AWD in much of their model linup.... With regards to the questions about advertising, I see quite a few Audi commercials that focus on AWD.

I also wanted something that was dfferent... Lots of people had BMWs and Mercedes and Lexus. As a 20-something recently out of college, I wanted something that was a little more unique and not as common. Audi fit the bill there.... Of course, you can't really advertise "not as common" without really saying "you don't sell as many cars as your competitors." :confuse:

anthonyp · December 2005

Maybe you should read it a third time this time more slowly...I do not possess the writing skills to eloborate on the subjective, I`l leave that to Mr. Cincinatti, as he does it well...I might also say I don`t spell very well, but I`l keep trying..Tony

lexusguy · December 2005

So the Legacy is an AWD Camry? I dont buy that at all. The Legacy is something of a "tweener", its not really in the same class as Accord or Camry, nor is it up in near-lux with IS350 and TL. The Rav4 and Forester and the Tribeca and Highlander are already in the same class. I dont recall Subaru having any plans to kill off either of these vehicles because of Toyota competition. The Legacy with a bit more muscle could be Toyota's answer to the MazdaSpeed6 and Altima SE-R. The Camry, AWD or not, could never compete with those cars.

brightness04 · December 2005

The Europeans certainly knows something that we dont(A4 beats BMW3 sales and A6 sales is tied in top spot with BMW5 sales).

The overwhelming majority of Audi's sold are FWD; FWD is considered blasphemous around here ;-)

lexusguy · December 2005

In Europe you can even buy a FWD Jag X-type. Not that anyone has, but the point is you can

tagman · December 2005

There's always the risk to say something that might be misunderstood. I apologize if you have misunderstood my post. Your writing skills are just fine. I enjoyed reading it many times.

Let me clarify this a bit more: The point I was making was that I have been trying to identify what would be a "unique-to Audi" or "identifiable-to-Audi" reason that would motivate you or someone else to buy that particular car. In post 12166, that reason was indicated as AWD, which was described by the purchaser as a unique feature of the Audi, at the time of purchase. Let's be clear that you are not being asked to justify your purchase. It's OK to buy a car for ANY or NO reason! It happens all the time. But often there IS a common-thread reason that people will buy a particular car. That's what this is about.

So, again, the real question is whether or not there was a clearly identifiable reason that you and other Audi purchasers have in common that becomes the motivating factor for the purchases.

For example, BMW buyers very often buy BMWs for the drivetrain and performance, and the vehicle has a well-known reputation as well as widely-accepted preconceptions regarding this attribute.

The Audi has a well-known reputation for ???, and what would be the widely-accepted preconceptions about the vehicle?

Those "Audi" attributes may very well be there, but are they well-known? And what exactly are they, if they ever were to become well-known? What positively identifies an Audi?

So . . . after all this, I still think that Audi (regardless of its greatness or lack thereof) needs to catch a serious dose of "brand recognition" . . . and to go a little further . . . to be successful, it would need to be based on some particularly special, unique, and recognizable "AUDI attribute(s)".

That's still my perspective.

TagMan

emauss · December 2005

My first Audi was a 1976 Silver Fox (special addition Fox). It was very similar to the VW Seracco (sp?), but with fuel injection rather than carbs. I was surprised when I went to the dealer and learned it was within my price range.

At the time I had consider Audi to be a high-end German car that was (and is) something a little special and unique.(...and I still do...)

I guess the sales department wishes it weren't *so* unique!

I am now patiently waiting for my A8L to show up at the dealer.

To many of us with old-time sports car background (Austin Healey, MG, Triumph, etc) I think Audi has always had a good and important name. The attention to detail and interior space that Audi has demonstrated in recent years is one other thing that sets them apart from some other manufacturers. They had evolved into an even better car manufacturer than they had been.

(e)

merc1 · December 2005

My take on Audi is they were known for being bargain priced German luxury compared to Mercedes and BMW. This along with AWD and some different technology (like Aluminum construction) were their calling cards.

Audi being part of the VW Group has had to live with the stigma of being just a glorified VW - to some people. They were back in the day with certain models, but this has long since changed. However this perception always kept them grouped in with second tier European brands like Saab, Volvo and Saab, not with the starlets Mercedes and BMW.

Now since BMW offers awd on some models and Mercedes-Benz offers awd on every sedan and wagon they make, Audi is losing that advantage to a degree. Secondly they aren't exactly all that cheap anymore, but there is still some room between certain Audi models and upper BMW and especially certain Mercedes models, plus you're more likely to get a bigger deal on a Audi still, again depending on what model we're talking about.

Audi's dealer network has been a big problem. Now in my area every Audi dealer except one is a brand new ultra-modern facilty, and a lot of them are placed on or near "dealers row" with MB/BMW/Jag/Lexus etc. Another problem was that they didn't have enough dealers. Back in the day when Mercedes only offered AWD on the E-Class (say like in the day of the W124 E-Class) and BMW didn't offer it at all, Audi didn't have enough dealers to really exploit that in the areas of the country in which it would have made a difference, like in the Northeast. Upon a recent trip to Minnesota it was interesting to see that every Mercedes sedan was of the 4Matic variety. In a market like that Audi should clean up, but I don't think I saw more than one or two A4s there the entire time.

What I think identifies and Audi today is design, both inside and out, technology (all-aluminum construction, FSI) and just being the alternative to the old-guard German makes like BMW and again, especially Mercedes. They also have a long history (for those who care to know) and they've practically owned certain racing venues in recent years.

They don't have a absolute lock on direct-injecton or aluminum construction now though, so I guess for now they'll have differentiate themselves through design and a price advantage (compared to MB/BMW in some cases). I personally think a lot more people would buy an Audi if they knew about them. Audi needs to offer brochures on their website like everyone else and just get that Audi name out there more.

Also, I see a lot more growth potential for Audi than either MB or BMW in this country. As gas prices start to inch upwards again I'm reminded that Audi is very, very late to the SUV party, as nice as the Q7 appears to be, the launch will likely be blunted somewhat by a general turn away from SUVs. Mercedes will likely face the same thing with this new "GL-Class" also, and I bet BMW is no longer considering that "X7" that has been rumored for years.

That said, and as everyone knows I love Audis, always have. I like them because of their design uniqueness compared to Mercedes and BMW, they're such slick, tasteful, edgy cars IMO. For me there was nothing in the mid-size class as elegant and tasteful inside and out as the previous generation A6 during those years, not even the W210 E-Class. I almost feel the same way about the current A8, but I haven't seen the new S in person yet.

Audi does still enjoy a small nichce to themselves among their German competitors, awd performance models. Mercedes only made a handful of previous generation E55 4Matics for the German market and BMW has said NO to awd for any Motorsport model so the S and RS cars are unique from that prespective. The S4 Cabriolet is a wonderful, go-anywhere during any season car.

M

anthonyp · December 2005

There is no apology necessary, I just find it frustrating to try and describe a subjective issue such as a car...Over the years I fortunately have owned a variety of cars--some lemmons, and other superb machines--That experience has imbeded in me `senses` everything from smell to feel to touch and many more...Those have been the overiding decision makers ...Just me personally, I find the Mercedes a bit less than taught, the BMW a little shy on the refinements(interior) Lexus just so so(and a little not real) All are fine cars...Why I said at the end of my post that a person would do themselves a favor to test drive an Audi---what I was suggesting was that they themselves would then be able to (through their senses) experience it...If you were to search way back in the a6 posting, and find Markcincinatti and where he got his new a6, that is enthusiasm... For me only Porsche awakens those old memories...I also don`t think any of the above luxury cars really are that much different, but I really like my a8, and far more than I am able to express---it`s in the feeling-- I would like to chllenge you to give yourself a test and mentally try and describe why you are attracted to a person....There may be no single answer...I think Audi has a good way to go on the marketing front..A good and diverse dealer group is a must then the adversising...They are on the way Tony

dewey · December 2005

Majority of Audis are FWD in Euroland .

You can find BMW 518s and MB C180s in Euroland

You cant get new BMW M5s with a manual tranny in Euroland

Euroland, the land of enthusiast cars but with few enthusiast drivers.

dewey · December 2005

Secondly they aren't exactly all that cheap anymore,

No Audis are not cheap at all.

The A3 3.2 sells for the same price as a BMW325xi in Canada.

OUCH!!!

designman · December 2005

For me there was nothing in the mid-size class as elegant and tasteful inside and out as the previous generation A6 during those years, not even the W210 E-Class. I almost feel the same way about the current A8, but I haven't seen the new S in person yet.

Merc, when I see a car in photo, 99% of the time its what I see in person. The only visual element I find somewhat deceptive is scale, but it has little consequence on the ultimate impression. Do actually think seeing the S in person is going to sway what you see in photos?

blkhemi · December 2005

......... is an Audi? Evidently so called enthusiast aren't exactly that at all. If someone is a Euro-car lover, then for sure they'll remember that Audi is the champ in Rally competition sports events and Audi's quattro system is hands down without peer, yes this means X-drive Bimmers and 4Matic Mercs. And for mainstream cars, the Audi interior from a $30K A4 to my $120K A8L W-12 is best in class. The technology that Audi puts in its cars is unmatched. Take for instance the DSG tranny that is light years ahead of even the best(Poooooooorsche) manumatic. It has time and time again scored higher than the BMW SMG and even Ferrari's F1 tranny for ease of use and relialbility.

What is an Audi? For sure that is a joke and not reality. Audi may not be a household name in comparison to the everyday usual BMW and Mercedes, even for that matter Lexus, it is a car that has the latest technology to compete with even the best luxo cars.

Don't get me wrong, I love Mercedes. But their quality of late is not deserving of the three-pointed star. Having just owned a S600, S65, and a G-Wagen55 that I'm looking to load off onto someone, the cars are just plan dated. Maybe '07 will be the year Merc and Buick.....er.......Lexus gets it right.

tagman · December 2005

Euroland also gets some great diesel alternatives. Interestingly, they are starting to show up more significantly on our shores. I believe MB will lead in the high-end group with the "R" and "M" and new "GL" all coming in with diesel options, as well as the existing "E". The one that excites me is that I have heard that the all-new "S" will be available with a diesel in '08. I'm going to be patient for that IF, IF, IF, I like the new "S" when I look it over in February.

TagMan

tagman · December 2005

What is an Audi? For sure that is a joke and not reality

I think you've misunderstood. The point is more about which attributes of an Audi are PERCEPTUALLY known to folks in general. When one thinks of "Audi", what does it bring to mind to most folks? About "brand recognition". It was not intended to be a test of knowledge . . . but rather to get some good perspectives, which it did . . . great and intriguing viewpoints IMO.

merc1 · December 2005

Do actually think seeing the S in person is going to sway what you see in photos?

No not really, but I've always reserved final judgement until I'm standing beside the car. With the S I like it a lot, but I've got to see those rear-wheel arches. In some pics they're way too big and others they're not so big.

M

brightness04 · December 2005

I'm not at all against FWD; in fact, one of my cars is a FWD, in fact the make was one of the pioneers of FWD. It is a very efficient system for lands that see snow often (like in Europe, and much of north America north of the Mason-Dixon line). OTOH, the many who pay attention to HELM for snob appeal seem to consider FWD heretical, even if their own daily drivers are FWD's.

designman · December 2005

Every time I like a concept, in NEVER happens. This thing is pretty cool with some smooth and subtle lines. So what does it mean? I'm not so sure we will really see it. By the way, this is where Mercedes should be. But they chose the friggin' Nissan Pathfinder look instead. Tough noogies on them!

By the way, with regard to the geniuses in the press who say it looks like a BMW particularly the 5-series, keep this in mind that butt and profile has the ES genes, there is no doubt about it. Correct me if Im wrong but the ES was out two years before the E60 5-series.

dewey · December 2005

A majority buy a Legacy or other Subaru vehicles because of their reasonably priced AWD offerings. I do think a reasonably priced AWD Camry will compete with Subaru.

And what is likely to happen if there is a AWD Camry? Will Honda, Nissan and even Hyundai allow lost sales to a AWD Camry. Wont they be motivated to offer their own versions of a AWD Accord, AWD Altima and a AWD Sonata to compete with a AWD Camry.

And if most marques offer reasonable priced AWD cars then what would be the advantage of owning a Legacy. A boxer engine? I dont think so. Most people do not buy a SUbaru because of their boxer engines.

dewey · December 2005

After painfully squinting my eyes and getting a second opinion about my eyeglasses RX I cant see any resemblance whatsoever between a Lexus ES and a BMW 5.

tagman · December 2005

Keep up the good work while I go on a Christmas vacation to be with family until January 3rd. Unless I can get to a computer that's not being used for video games, I'll have a lot to catch up on when I get back. You gentlemen do keep it interesting, and I can't tell you how much I enjoy your posts. Thanks for allowing me to be a part of it. All of you have a great holiday, if I don't chat with you until next year!! '06 is going to be great . . . I can feel it.
TagMan

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