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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The plot and point of the conversation was lost pages ago with all that leasing mumbo jumbo. Everyone doesn't lease. Despite your gloom and doom outlook and their loss of prestige (which I agree with) MB is still #1 in that regard when it comes to the mass-market brands.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    It has had a cushier ride than MB since 1989, and outhandles S class since 1998.

    The first point is arguable, but the second isn't. The LS doesn't outhandle the S-Class. The so-called wannbe "Euro" option for the LS can't even be had. Its a rarer car than than a Aston-Martin. Everytime I've driven a LS430 it yowled and keeled over like an old battleship on the high seas. The S-Class isn't nearly as loose and lifeliess, plus you can actually get a S-Class in sport trim.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Audi doesn't surprise me as it's retention is abysmal but Acura's low retention is surprising. Infiniti is missing from that list.

    Why would Acura's low retention be a surprise? They don't have anything to move up to from the RL. A buyer gets a TL then another and then move up to a RL. Then what? They don't have anything to keep a buyer in the fold once the buyer's taste have moved past the entry and middle level market segments. The last RL only took 9 years to be replaced. Why would anyone buy that car again and again every three years? Of course they'd leave the brand. Proof the reliability isn't the only thing that matters. Acura is still sitting on the porch.

    M
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    Okay, so what direction do people feel (or want) each high-end marque should take?

    Infiniti (as it is near and dear to me): Reinvent the Q just like they reinvented the M. AWD option on all car/engine combinations.

    Lexus: Styling (although the new LS looks like it will be a winner), and fewer/cheaper option bundles (sorry, but if I shell out 56k for a base LS, the Ultra package shouldn't add 20 large).

    MB: Concentrate on reliability and their higher end cars.

    Acura: Create a car one level up from the RL (LWB and V8).

    BMW: Improve reliability of the 7. Otherwise I think they are doing everything pretty darn well.

    Jaguar: Dump the X-type. Create dedicated platforms and engines. I don't know if I like the idea of them trying to move higher with their top-end unless they are truly committed to selling (far?) fewer cars.

    Audi: Work on their advertising. Create better name recognition. Rework the fish-mouth--sure it is recognizable, but not everything unique is good or attractive. They produce beatiful cars--from the side and rear as well as on the inside.
  • fennfenn Member Posts: 197
    I believe that Infiniti is working on a Q replacement, but little info or spy photos...so,it sure seems to be quite a secret project at this time. I think that they will probably nail it this time after the success with the M45.

    Acura seems to have missed the mark with the new RL. It is a well-built, nice car, but its appearance is so generic and bland that they get little attention. It looks small for this class. They could use a flagship, but I have not heard any talk about this as a real possibility.

    The Jaguar X type is likely to be dropped in the next couple of years, but they still seem to sell them to the middle aged and older folks who always wanted a Jaguar. Even though they dilute the brand, the X types still constitute a chunk of Jaguar's current U.S. sales, so I wonder how they can dump the car right now. Meanwhile, the replacement for the Jaguar S type is not due until 2008, so Jaguar has little in the pipeline for the next couple of years, except the XK sports cars.

    BMW makes a great car. As many have noted over and over again, their worst point has been the Bangle styling which is going to fade. The recent advance pics of the new 7 series look good. No more Bangle excesses and the ultimate driving machines look like winners.

    IMO, Lexus has really become bland as a luxury car. The current LS430 is as exciting as a comfortable sofa. However, I acknowledge that the upcoming new generation LS may change that. The GS is really disappointing to me. I recently drove a GS430 and it seemed more like a sportier looking, well built Buick, rather than a real contender as a mid luxury sports sedan...By comparison, the M45 is a much better new product. However, the new IS is a really nice lead off to the future. I am sure that Lexus will bounce back with some more hot products
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    It will certainly be interesting to see what happens with the Q. If I were Infiniti, I would be tearing apart a Quattroporte, and copying everything. That car absolutely sets the benchmark on how to make a full size, super-lux sedan that is also a blast to drive. Not even the 7 comes close. I also think the GT-R is going to be a total hit. It's pretty embarrasing that Japan's most famous sports car in the US is still the Toyota Supra... a car that has not been on sale for almost 10 years.

    Unfortunately, the bean counters have given the axe to the idea of using a shortened XJ platform for the next S-type, so instead it will continue with the already obsolete DEW98 platform, meaning everyone will continue to not care about the S-type.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The IS350 is good, but I dont think it's good enough. There's just no way it will win any comparison tests against the 330i. No 350 AWD and no 350 with a MT were also dumb decisions that will hurt them. Also, the next Infiniti G is just a year or so away, and I dont think Lexus will be able to defend themselves against what will probably be an absolute monster.
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    I heard through my dealer that the G-coupe is going to have a convertible hard-top option. What a blast with a 6 speed MT and (minimum) 298 hp.

    Trunk space? What's that?
  • scottphillipscottphillip Member Posts: 249
    I sat in a S550 yesterday. The interior seems a bit busy with all the chrome trim--seems very 70s American. :confuse:

    The seat was quite comfortable. We were unable to drive the car. They are only for display.
  • fennfenn Member Posts: 197
    It really is quite a success story that Infiniti has become more of a leading edge company in recent years. They were lost and dying until they got awakened by the Ghosan/French connection. They went from being lost to becoming somewhat inspired...

    I have to say that the failure of Jaguar to take this aluminum mode to the next generation mid-class sport/luxo sedan (S Type) is a mistake. As the owner of an XJR, I can only imagine how a smaller all aluminum sedan with the Supercharged V-8 would respond. As many have noticed, the current S Type R is slower than the larger XJR with the same engine/drivetrain due to its weight. If Ford had the money and balls to "go for it" in the next generation S Type, they might have had a world class car in this segment.
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    The interesting thing about Infiniti is that when the brand was launched (around the same time as Lexus), it was clearly focused on BMW, while Lexus was focused on MB. I remember at the time hearing that MB was worried about losing sales to Lexus but not Infiniti, while BMW had the opposite concerns.

    Infiniti then lost its initial focus and seemed to try and chase Lexus. Now Infiniti has come back to its initial "mission" and is thriving. Of course, Infiniti's initial launch did not help it much. The ads were interesting, but at some point you do have to show and discuss the actual product. They should have run the Zen stuff for a month or so before switching gears.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    . Also, the next Infiniti G is just a year or so away!

    I think the new G are in the the thoughts of BMWUSA and Canada too.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    success of the new 3 series, I hardly think BMW is worried about the new G.
    Nobody will ever be able to displace BMW from being at the top of the sport sedan heap.

    I can't see anybody who can afford either car, choosing the new G over the 2006 Car Of The Year, the 330i.
    Infiniti can keep believing they are turning out Japanese BMWs, but the simple fact is, they are not.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Not sure what you mean by "mumbo jumbo." Lump sum cash and stream of future cash flow are interchangeable financial instruments. Lease happens to be MB's chosen method of clearing its cars through the market place. $100k MSRP has no meaning whatsoever when there is a $30k cash discount and even more discounts through leases.

    "MB is still #1 in that regard when it comes to the mass-market brands. "

    #1 in what regard? Most MB's sold today are not even in the luxury price range today, much less high end luxury luxury, thanks to all the discounting.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    A MB S350? What continent do you live in? Does North America actually sell MB350s?

    Yes, Virginia, S350 are sold in North America, earth, solar system, milky way. . . where have you been? I see S350 ads all over the places around where I live . . . the last time I checked, MA is still in North America.

    What royalty do your mortals belong to ? The House of Saud? The successor to a 2800CS is a BMW 6 series. Also 8 thousand dollars spent on a BMW 2800CS during 1970 was not exactly an immortal act

    A little over $500/mo is equivalent to lump sum of about $38k, assuming ordinary bank rate on lease and realistic depreciation. Both $500/mo and $38k today are much smaller numbers compared to $8k in 1970. $8k in 1970 is approximately $80-100k today. Ordinary cars were only $800-1000 brand new back then.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Everytime I've driven a LS430 it yowled and keeled over like an old battleship on the high seas.

    And how many times would that be?

    The S-Class isn't nearly as loose and lifeliess, plus you can actually get a S-Class in sport trim.

    That must be why they are discounting S-class like there's no tomorrow. People just don't buy 200+" cars for sport trimmings.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    can't see anybody who can afford either car, choosing the new G over the 2006 Car Of The Year, the 330i.

    It's kinda hard for anyone to see anything, since we don't even know what the new G entails. What we do know for fact is that numerous people who could afford both in the last go-around picked G over the 3.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    IMHO, the real problem is RSX owners moving to Accord/Pilot/Odyssey for family movers. RSX attracts a very young pre-marital audience, who may need more bang for the buck after getting married.
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    What we do know for fact is that numerous people who could afford both in the last go-around picked G over the 3.

    How so? Is that based on facts or opinions? And what/when was "the last go-around"???....
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Facts, and only facts. The last go-around meant before the recent and upcoming new designs. I personally know several people who picked G over E46, including several sedan buyers over the past four years and a coupe buyer only a few months ago.
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    Facts, and only facts. The last go-around meant before the recent and upcoming new designs. I personally know several people who picked G over E46, including several sedan buyers over the past four years and a coupe buyer only a few months ago.

    So is that "factual evidence" or "anecdotal evidence", then? Sounds like the latter.... How about we use the actual sales numbers from BMW's and Infiniti's annual reports. We'll use 2004 numbers, if that's okay...

    BMW 3-Series: 98,615 units sold
    Infiniti G35: 71,177 units sold

    Even if I take out the 3-series convertibles and wagons (which Infiniti doesn't make), BMW is still at 81,904... and that's not even including about 8,000 M3s sold last year.

    Now we've got the facts.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    with even greater urgency than before.
    No person in his right mind who can afford a 330i picks the G.

    I can only conclude that the 71,177 people who bought or leased the G in 2004 did so because they simply couldn't afford to move up to the ultimate driving machine which is the amazing and incomparable 330i, the undisputed leader in the entry level luxury performance sedan category.

    As for myself, I would rather spend another year or so saving and sacrificing to purchase the 330i sometime in the future then to drive such a weak imposter now.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    What is your point with these lease numbers when they have no relation whatsoever with the 2800CS successor called the BMW 6 series.

    A MB S350 in USA?. They certainly dont sell any S350s in Canada so I am quite amazed that a single S350 is selling in hp hungry USA.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The only reason I love BMWs now is because I think they are the best driving sedans. And I strongly believe the BMW e90 will remain the benchmark vehicle in the future.

    Having said the above I can assure you that if I test drive a second generation G and I find it the best among all my test drives then I will buy a G. An unlikely scenario, but you never know?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Interesting that you've already written the '07 Gxx's obituary, since nobody but Infiniti even knows anything about the new car yet.

    "Nobody will ever be able to displace BMW"

    Thats a pretty rediculous statement to make. Even you know how close Infiniti got to the "invincible" BMW 5 series with the M. The 540i dominated every comparison test it was in. The new 5 in almost all cases has lost to the M. The previous 3 was also essentially given the #1 spot in every comparison test. The '07 G could very well follow in the M's footsteps and become the darling of the press. The IS350 is already faster than fabulous 3 series, and I have no doubt that Nissan will make sure that the next G is faster than the IS350.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    They pay me the big bucks around here to be provocative and stimulate debate.

    It's doubtful that the new G will be displacing the 330i in sales or performance.
    BMW has taken a great car, the 330i, and made it even better. All the car mags acknowledge this.
    BMW is not resting on its laurels and never will. Infiniti will always be playing catchup.

    The M "beat" the 5 in comparos because the former is considered to be an outstanding value.
    Every car mag that picked the M over the 5 has acknowledged that the "losing" 5 was the better performer.
    I thought these car mags put performance at the top. Obviously another agenda is at work here.

    Motor Trend in its November issue picked the 545 non-sport over the M45 sport!
    It's good to see honesty finally returning to a comparo. Performance was paramount in this comparo.

    Where is the integrity when a car mag shows off a Maserati on page 37 that none of us can afford ( and they all do this over and over, ad nauseum) and then proceeds in a comparo on page 83 to praise the M as "number one" because it's a better "value" than the 545 and yet admits the 545 wins in every performance category. Road & Track did just that and it made me sick.

    I remember a few years ago the car mags were singing the same tune when the G came out, that is was an outstanding value and hence "beat" the 330i.
    People are smarter than that. They drove both and the sales reveal that people are willing to spend a little more because with BMW, you do get what you pay for.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    BMW 3-Series: 98,615 units sold
    Infiniti G35: 71,177 units sold


    In other words, roughly 20k 330i vs. 71k G35. Yes, I know a lot of 325 poser buyers.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Hey, don't ask me why; ask MB. All I know is that North America market is a little bigger than that of Canada alone.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    A bit of accuracy would help if you want to make comparisons. Your G35 and BMW 3 series sales figures are both wrong.

    G35 November YTD sales = 62,507
    BMW 3 series Nov YTD sales = 96, 358

    A 54 percent difference is quite a difference dont you think?

    G35

    BMW 3 series
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Hey, don't ask me why; ask MB. All I know is that North America market is a little bigger than that of Canada alone.

    Thanks for answering a question I never asked in the first place. The MB product range in Canada is larger than that of the USA. MB Canada sells the B Class and Smart cars.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Hey you can talk about discounting until forever, but the LS430 doesn't outhandle the S-Class. Period. Switching the subject doesn't change this, nor did I say the S-Class was some kind of sports sedan either. Spinning and twisting won't work here brightness.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    #1 in what regard?

    Prestige.

    Most MB's sold today are not even in the luxury price range today, much less high end luxury luxury, thanks to all the discounting.

    Bull, plain and simple. Did it ever occur to you that the current S-Class is being discounted heavily because uh...in about 45 days a new version goes on sale?

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    If I were Infiniti, I would be tearing apart a Quattroporte, and copying everything. That car absolutely sets the benchmark on how to make a full size, super-lux sedan that is also a blast to drive. Not even the 7 comes close.

    So refreshing to see a "lexusguy" liking a car like the Quattroporte so much. I know you don't like Audis, but I think the S8 will give the Maser a run for its money, though it still won't be as exotic.

    M
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Your G35 and BMW 3 series sales figures are both wrong.

    Please follow thread before making accusations. Those numbers were not mine. They were quoted from bdr127's post regarding 2004 sales. As for G35 vs 3, please note:
    (1) only 330i is really relevent; 325i is a poser mobile that has no counterpart in the G; 325i accounts for something like 70-80% of 3 sedan sales
    (2) I never claimed G outsells 3, only that many would-be 3 buyers bought G instead in the last go-around, so your point that the new 3 (especially 325i) outsells the long-in-the-tooth G35 is quite irrelevent.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    I can only conclude that the 71,177 people who bought or leased the G in 2004 did so because they simply couldn't afford to move up to the ultimate driving machine which is the amazing and incomparable 330i, the undisputed leader in the entry level luxury performance sedan category.

    You can conclude whatever you wish. My conclusion was that, until the arrival of the 2006 model year E90 330i in the Spring of 2005, BMW 3 series was way underpowered when compared to the G. Also, the E46 was too small when compard to G. Performance sedan is by definition a compromise . . . an entry level luxury performance sedan is more so . . . different people simply make different compromises.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    I don't think 330i ever outsold G35. 3 series sales over-all is 70-80% in 325i. No one in his/her right mind would claim 325i (E46 or E90) out-performs G35.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Thanks for answering a question I never asked in the first place. The MB product range in Canada is larger than that of the USA. MB Canada sells the B Class and Smart cars.

    Thanks for reminding us how far from prestige MB has descended. Don't get angry with me. You are the one who try to deride me for talking about S350 before knowing that it actually is sold in North America.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    LS430 out-handles variants of S-class quite well. Have you driven an S600 lately? Quite a porker indeed. Spinning and twisting won't work here indeed, M(itsbishi).
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Prestige.

    Prestige my you-know-what. Massive discount in pricing is reflective of massive loss in prestige.

    Bull, plain and simple. Did it ever occur to you that the current S-Class is being discounted heavily because uh...in about 45 days a new version goes on sale?

    LS430 is being replaced very soon as well; do you see 30% discount on them? Of course not. Is R class being replaced soon? Is E class being replaced soon? Both MB models have massive discounts. "Bull, plain and simple."
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Dude the LS430 doesn't outhandle anything in this class. Nope, haven't driven a S600. Now one minute the LS430 doesn't compete with the S600, but now it does? I mean which is it? If I were to bring up that a S600 would blow the doors off a LS430 it would be seen as desperate and what not, yet you feel the need to bring up that LS430 could (in your words) outhandles a S600. Thats wrong too because the S600 has standard ABC suspension that is stiffer than the Airmatic setup on the S430/600 models. The S600's suspension is closer to the S55's and we all know a LS430 doesn't have a prayer of out handling a S55.

    To make matters even worse you can't even get a LS430 with its wannabe Euro option. A Euro LS430 is more exotic than a VW Phaeton.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    LS430 is being replaced very soon as well; do you see 30% discount on them? Of course not. Is R class being replaced soon? Is E class being replaced soon? Both MB models have massive discounts. "Bull, plain and simple."

    Nope because the LS430 has at least 9 more months to go, not 30 days! Big difference. I already acknowledged that the R-Class launch didn't go well. Even I got an email and a flyer in the mail about the R-Class.

    Problem is you're trying to imply that the S-Class has been discounted at the current level all the time and that simply isn't true.

    M
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Stiff suspension does not mean good handling. S600 positively plows thanks to its weight up front . . . the most terrible setup for a RWD car, a big reason why AMG did not make anything based on that V12 power plant.

    LS430 handles plenty good enough for this class.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Still does not explain why E class is being heavily discounted. I will tell you why, the auto industry turning drasticly down in the last few months . . . as they say, when tide goes out, we get to see who's been swimming naked.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Never driven the S600 so, but I haven't seen anyone complain about the handling of the S600 either. Again, why is that the S600 can be compared to the LS430 at certain times? If I had made such a ridiculous comparison you'd be harping about how no one buys a S600 compared to the S430 and S500. Lexus double standards again.

    LS430 handles plenty enough if you like the boat-like experience, but it doesn't handle better than the S-Class (like you originally stated), 7-Series, XJ or A8.

    Uh as far as AMG not making anything based on that "V12 powerplant", wrong. The S65 AMG is based on the same engine.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Still does not explain why E class is being heavily discounted. I will tell you why, the auto industry turning drasticly down in the last few months . . . as they say, when tide goes out, we get to see who's been swimming naked.

    That nakedness must apply to the Acura RL, BMW 5-Series and others in the segment. The fact is that every car in this class can be had with some type of discount. Naturally you'll point to the Lexus GS and say it isn't being discounted, yet the car just came out this year, unlike the E-Class. As cars age they get discounted, but in the case of MB it means that the sky is falling.

    M
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Never driven the S600 so, but I haven't seen anyone complain about the handling of the S600 either.

    That's because handling matters very little in this class. They are all land yachts.

    Uh as far as AMG not making anything based on that "V12 powerplant", wrong. The S65 AMG is based on the same engine.

    My bad, I forgot the latest entry.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    That's because handling matters very little in this class. They are all land yachts.

    I don't disagree with that handling isn't the main thing for this class, but they aren't all land yachts. The 750i Sport isn't a land yacht, nor is the upcoming S8 or any AMG S-Class. They're very sporty for their size and weight. The Maser Quattroporte certainly isn't a land yacht. The only one that is a land yacht is the LS430 because it doesn't offer a sportier setup, or at least one an actual living, breathing person can purchase.

    M
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    If RL were the core of Acura business, the company would be in serious trouble. The matter of the fact however is that Acura would do just fine even if not a single RL is sold this month or next.

    E on the other hand is bread and butter of MB (well, in the prestigeous past anyway, before C took over the bulk of sales). Both E and C are being heavily discounted, and both are actually newer than LS430 and ES330; the Lexi have not even bothered with engine/badge updates like MB has since their model introduction years ago.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    S8 and AMG account for such a tiny per centage of this market segment, it's not even funny. Besides, both of them, plus 750i, are not exactly "sporty" . . . unless you think the S in "SUV" stands for "sporty." 750i is very heavy. They can go pretty fast in straight line, good accelearation off the line and on highways; that's about it. Don't bother tossing them in corners.

    As for the Maser, I suppose, in the tail end of an economic boom, even the most overweight, gas guzzling and technologically benighted cars can find buyers if the price is high enough to make exotics. Since we are in a forum about marques, my prediction is that Maser will be out of the US market again within a few years.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    E on the other hand is bread and butter of MB (well, in the prestigeous past anyway, before C took over the bulk of sales). Both E and C are being heavily discounted, and both are actually newer than LS320 and ES330; the Lexi have not even bothered with engine/badge updates like MB has since their model introduction years ago.

    The LS and C-Class both came out for 2001 so they're the same age in fact. The E-Class has the unfortunate position of suddenly being the next to oldest car in a class that has been completely transformed since 2004. The 5-Series, A6, RL, GS, M, and STS are all newer so it would be expected for the E to face an uphill battle. You act as though this can't happen to anyone else. Lexus' 1998-2005 GS was just as discounted and towards the end it didn't sell much at all, unlike the E-Class which no matter what its age is always stays either #1 or #2 in the sales race.

    BTW, the ES330 is only a year older than the E-Class but more importantly the ES330 has a segment nearly to itself, hardly a valid comparison. No foreign luxury brand makes a fwd-bluehair set car to compete with the ES330.

    M
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