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Comments
It builds character (if one doesn't die from dehydration first).
Yes competition is alive and well even in the luxury markets.
I'm shocked that the mother-factory would actually allow this.
For example, will a Lexus outperform a BMW on a tight twisty country road? NO, IT WILL NOT! Will it give a sumptuous ride without many visits to the shop? Yes.
Lexus is better at some things and BMW is better at some things, Mercedes is better at some things, etc., etc.
I try to respect you Lexus guys for having certain feathers in your caps, but do not try to steal away the ones that rightly belong to the other marques. Credit where credit is due.
TagMan
I guess this is why all serious performance cars should have cup holders. It's good to have character and be alive at the same time.
TagMan
Is that what I said? I dont think so?
Found in translation
Your view was that the Lexus LS is not only cheaper but equal or better than German offerings.
My view was that if a cheaper Lexus LS was really better than German offerings then the Germans would have serious problems like Jaguar.
".... get better ZZZZZZZ's in the back..." ... "LazyBoy recliner" ... "TemperPedic beds".... Were these same reclining feature not on an MB Maybach 57 or 62 ? But the LS460L can provide this for a whole lot less $$$, than a Maybach. I'd hope the S550 can try to match the LS460L in this area...
Maybe I am missing something cos I forgot what all the noise is about ? What exactly is the point you German car fans are making about the new LS460 ? I have lost touch with what the beef about this car is ??? Why not just promote the heck out of the Bimmer 745/750 and S500/550 ? There is no need to bash Lexus to make anyone feel good...
(It truly DOES look comfy)
Heck, if we can add the DirecTV that ljflx was joking about, then we can watch Monday Night Football on ESPN next season in the back seat! C'mon now . . . lighten up.
What do you think, oac?
Oh I didn't think you would, though in the pics its obvious from the rear. I agree that the GS doesn't look the same from the side. Thank goodness the LS and IS don't have the humpback whale look of the GS - its awful looking from the sides.
And the ML has obviously learned quite a bit from the original RX300.
HA! Small problem, the ML came out BEFORE the original RX300 so this statment is just flat out false regarding styling.
M
First part of this is true - I agree. I passed a 2006 S500 Sport this morning in Pewter, absolutely gorgeous. However the new car doesn't look nearly as bulky in person as the 1992 Blitzen Benz S-Class.
M
I guess it is acceptable when a German company does it, but not acceptable when a Japanese company does it?
Yeah its more acceptable for Mercedes to take cues from Maybach because for one the Maybach was to be a "Mercedes" in the first place. Remember the original concept from the Tokyo autoshow in 1997? Secondly, the knock your fellow Lexus fans heaped on MB (and others) was that they made their cheap cars look like the least expensive ones. Well the S taking cues from the Maybach is the opposite. Big difference from that to a LS430 looking like a overfed Camry. Huge difference!
M
Everyone? Try the NYT likes the styling. They in no way, shape of form speak for "everyone". Is this the same "source" that had a writer that said something ridiculous about liking a Maxima more than LS430?
M
I already gave you that the original LS400 was a rounder car, but it doensn't look anything today to my eyes. Just a large Toyota. True the W126 S looks like it was from another era because it was, having debuted in 1979.
Strangely enough I agree *somewhat* about the original Audi V8 and the original LS400 - that agreement being that they were both rounder than the W126 S, though the Audi was no curve presentation either. However Audi being a nobody doesn't have anything to do with them being the one to usher in the Aero theme with their 5000 model. This had a lot of influence on a lot of cars including the original Ford Taurus.
Going back to 1906 really doesn't make sense to me so you can have that one. Hell if we're going to go back that far then why not 1886? Really silly IMO, we're talking about modern day car styling.
Don't know enough or care enough to get into a ridiculous arguement about semis and who copied who.
M
Yeah I'd like to know too. The only S-Class model the LS has "dethroned" has always been the entry-level model. I have never seen a S500 lose a fight to any LS model. Secondly the "S-Class" isn't just one car, it is a group of cars and to beat the S-Class you have to have something at the top to compete with the upper models, which is why Lexus is going for their faux "LS600h" to do battle at the upper end. When you look at the big picture the LS is hottest car in the segment (by sales) in the U.S, but worldwide the S-Class is still the segment leader by far, and if the S-Class isn't (as some say) then its the A8.
M
Good advice, now remember that next time you knock the S and predict the end of Mercedes-Benz. This is hilarious. The 2007 LS thread is nothing but a Mercedes this and Mercedes that thread. Lexusfans can't help but mention Mercedes whenever a new Lexus comes out. Go to the MB threads and see how much they mention Lexus, let alone knock Lexus like you Lexus guys knock Mercedes. That was good advice, but the source is just really interesting. I have never seen a group of car fans so pre-occupied with a competitor brand whenever their favorite brand introduces a car.
M
BMW - 300K+ units for 2006? The 3-Series continues its rollout and will save BMW's overall sales picture from the pending downturn in 7-Series sales. (a new S is in town). E-Class and 5-Series will duke it out again, but the 5 won't win in 2006 with a revised E on the way. New X5 due this fall, important in the sales race for them. M5 and M6 remain sold out for 2006. M6 cabrio on the way by the end of the year.
Lexus - Likely to hit 350K sales in 2006 with all the new an relatively new product they have on tap. Yes all you Lexusfans your brand will sail to new sales heights for 2006 for sure. The LS, IS and GS will do this, but I see a big dropoff for their aging SUVs (minues the RX) and the SC430. Since there is a new Camry, I suspect a new ES"350" is due for spring? A GS350 and GS460 will be added late in the year.
Mercedes-Benz - Will hit 250-260K or so this year on the back of the ML,S,CLS,E (E facelift by summer), GL. The R-Class (which I like for some reason), has seen a gradual increase in sales every month but I don't think it will ever be a "hit" in its current guise. C-Class will have a bad year due to its own age and the newer competition. New CL is due in the fall, but that isn't a volume seller per. Facelifted SL due by summer also.
Audi - lots of new niche models coming for 2006 and a new SUV. The RS4, S8, S6, and Q7 to be exact. I don't see a major spike in sales for them, but the Q7 will be a hit (for them that is). The A6 will likely get the new FSI V8 and the new 280hp V6 from the Passat during 2006.
Infiniti - will cool down somewhat in 2006 with the G35 aging the Q45 a non-starter. The next G isn't due until spring 2007 from what I've seen? The M will continue to gain new friends in 2006, but I see Infiniti sales being flat overall for 2006.
Jaguar - New XK will be a hit of course, but it alone can't save the company. They'll likely end up selling less units in 2006 compared to 2005 overall because the XJ is falling, the S-Type has fallen the X-Type can't get up.
Cadillac - Really impressed with the STS-V and XLR-V models, but the real news for them is the new Escalade. In in pics you can tell this is much better vehicle than before. The interior alone at least looks like it comes from someone other than GM. These will be hits for about the first few months but as summer comes and gas prices spike again (as we know they will do) they might face some sales hurdles.
M
I'm not sure that Lexus SUV sales are going to take that much of a hit. The 400h should help boost RX sales, and the GX is really not that old, it was brand new for '03, no older than FX, and much newer than the comparatively ancient Acura MDX. They wont sell many LX470s, but they've never sold many LX470s. '07 will bring brand new versions of both of Lexus' biggest selling cars, and they should have a very good year.
For Audi's sake, I hope they are able to save the Q7 from the curse of Toureg that is giving Toureg and Cayenne reliability scores that make Land Rover look great. The A6 isnt getting a new V6 any time soon, and definitely not the Passat's VR6. It faces the wrong way.
Infiniti is showing the "concept coupe" which is basically the next G35 coupe, so I dont think that the next G is that far away. I think it will definitely be a '07 model, just not sure when its going to show up.
I think the XK is going to do well, but as you said, it cant save the company. They basically already need a brand new XJ, even though the current version is just 2 years old. The new Benz S and the LS460 are just going to slaughter it. Whats worse, considering how long the last XJ6\8 and XK ran, the XJ will additionally have to deal with a brand new 7 series, and at least an updated A8 before it even gets a refresh, let alone a redesign.
Pushing Jag up into the "new Bentley" space of $150K products seems like the only place to go, as there's just no way they can compete in the volume luxury arena. If\when they get there though, I dont think Ford will be the owner any more. Ford just doesnt have the scratch to fund that kind of a transition, which could take a decade.
The interiors for all of the new GM full-size trucks, even the Chevy Tahoe, are really impressive. Not quite as good as the latest Toyota interiors, but better than just about every one else in the segment. I never thought I'd say that about a GM product. Cadillac needs a new CTS though, and quick.
I forgot about that, they've turned the arrangement around for the Passat for this generation! The Q7 I've seen is supposed to get the Passat V6 though. I gotta look up that info again.
Yeah the Jaguar XJ does have a long time to go, but then again maybe not. Automobile is running a story this month about a radical re-skin planned for 2009 which will see the XJ move away from the tough S/LS/7 segment and turns towards the CLS/Quattroporte segment. I keep seeing where everyone says that Jaguar is going to be taken upmarket to face Bentley, but I've never read that anywhere? Such a thing I don't think is possible.
M
I think the lack of name recognition and dumpy styling hurt the car more than anything else. Rolls got much closer to their sales goal in 2005.
M
M
So far it's in my number one slot for styling star of the year. I can't imagine anything beating it on my scorecard with all of the abominations and gropemobiles out there. It is both elegant and sporty-aggressive which is a very hard feat to achieve. And it presents more than a facelift. I hope it's the production version.
The S still has a tailored appearance, but with a little more bulk/muscule in the profile.
Not as chunky as two generations back, the '1992 Blitzen' as you call it.
The story on Jags future is kind of wierd. Supposedly, PAG wants to push Volvo up into Benz and BMW territory (maybe get the cars in line with Volvo's outrageous pricing?). The new Lincoln "concept" that will be the replacement for the LS is supposed to be a cousin of the next S80, which will be V8 powered. The X-type will be killed off, and something is going to happen with the S-type, but I'm not quite sure what. They were originally going to make it aluminum like the XJ and XK, but now it seems that wont happen. Sadly, both the X-type and S-type will continue basically unchanged until at least 2008, so the immediate future for Jag looks pretty bleak.
I agree that Infiniti sales will be flat this year, probably slightly down.
Problem with Infiniti is that they just don't have enough models (like Lexus) or line extensions of those models (like MB and BMW).
Nor do they have cheap sub-$30k vehicles like the RSX and TSX or volume FWD biased, utility SUVs like the MDX and RX.
Lexus - Up substantially in 2006. New LS should be a hit.
Mercedes-Benz - Flat. Up or down slightly (~2%) for 2006. New C and E needed for the next big sales jump.
Audi - Down for 2006. Not distinct enough to succeed against BMW and Mercedes.
Infiniti - Flat or down slightly for 06. A super Q (a la LS) is needed to come to the rescue! G is aging.
Jaguar - Another decline, not as steep in 2006. The XJ and XK lines aren't enough to put the brand up to 50,000+ units.
Cadillac - Double digit car sales increase of recent years is tough to maintain. The DTS, CTS, STS and 'V' models combined with the new Escalade may make it happen again.
Scott
BMW's Chief Designer
Enjoys Newfound Respect
"Suddenly, everyone is trying to do the kind of styling for which the auto journalists criticized the BMW group so loudly," BMW Chief Executive Helmut Panke crowed at a dinner with reporters here. "You look at the Camry rear end and you see another 7 Series. It is not the 'Bangle butt' anymore."
The new LS 460 from Toyota's Lexus brand also has a profile that almost exactly follows that of the 7 Series, while models from Nissan Motor Co.'s Inifiniti brand have moved to a modernist styling.
In an interview, Mr. Bangle said he is pleased BMW's work is being emulated, but, "I don't dwell on these issues," he said. "In this business, you don't spend a lot of time looking in the mirror. You try to figure out what curve is coming up."
They will always be one step ahead of the competition.
No time wasted looking in the mirror.
Funny how all the Bangle-bashing has turned into automotive plagiarism.
all greatness attracts criticism. The critics will only get louder as Bangle basks in worldwide glory !
Also, remember that I've also indicated a possibility for those S-Class wheel arches to have an impact on industry styling in the future, although I think it will be mild.
The latest approach to the 7's rear has really dialed in the styling concept, IMO, particularly due to the way the rear lenses carry over into the trunk. It's good.
2005 Sales:
ES: 67,577
IS: 15,789
GS: 33,457
LS: 26,043
SC: 8,360
RX: 108,775
GX: 34,339
LX: 8,555
Total: 302,895
2006 Sales (prediction):
ES: 71,000
IS: 48,000
GS: 36,000
LS: 25,000
SC: 7,000
RX: 103,000
GX: 28,000
LX: 7,000
Total: 325,000
Imitation IS the sincerest form of flattery.
Bangle should be collecting royalties from Toyota/Lexus.
Kind of dismaying how many Lexicans seem to be in complete denial over this.
But, the pretenders can superficially copy all they want.
Style has its limits.
What makes BMW's unique: the soul, the passion and exciting driving dynamics.
The pretenders will always come up a bit short.
Instead of bragging that its interiors are made of wood from the same tree, give me a vehicle that will steer with road feel and whose steering wheel is not made out of slippery wood. Give me a car that will corner without body lean instead of like a big, bloated barge.
Give me a Bangle BMW 7 series!
They will always be one step ahead of the competition.
No time wasted looking in the mirror.
Funny how all the Bangle-bashing has turned into automotive plagiarism.
Notice how many other luxury marques are doing the whole "joystick" thing?.... Funny how BMW takes the heat 3-4 years early, then everyone else follows along.
AUDI:
ACURA:
INFINITI:
It's almost inevitable despite what Lexus says.
These HELM's are getting so complex with electronic sophistication, I don't see how they can avoid it much longer.
TagMan
So it's not a question of hardware, but software! The other car companies, from what I read, have systems that are much more intuitive, even though they use the joystick like BMW.
That is hardly the case. I've designed navigation systems for Air Force planes and they'd fire me if I designed something as inane as iDrive or these pointless systems. Look at the cockpits of Boeing 777's and 747's. Despite the glass cockpits, there are buttons everywhere.
A 747/777 is far more complex than anything BMW, Audi, or MB could ever build, so if the military doesn't "need" one then I doubt a car will ever "need" one. The LS460 is as technologically as advanced as the competition yet they don't see the need to put a dumb iDrive clone system in there.
If I need to change a radio station on my LS430 I merely set the right station and hold down the pre-set location for a few seconds. That's called user friendly. Notice how Lexus is able to pull off complex technology like Navigation systems without making it needlessly complicated?
I'd never consider BMW the leader in style or anything beyond driving dynamics...The style award probably belongs to Audi or more recently Mercedes.
SV
Acura (and Honda) vehicles have a terrific voice command system that was developed cooperatively with IBM. Others have early generations voice command, and it will only get better. One command and it's done. Coupled with bluetooth . . . just say "call TagMan" and the call is placed automatically. "Find nearest gas station", and the navigation system calculates a route, or gives you choices of different gas stations. Tell the system to tune into "satellite channel 21", for example, and it's done!! Tell the system to set the "temperature at 70 degrees" and it's done!!
So . . . problem solved!!
TagMan
What year is your 745? IDrive still gets bad press for some reason, even though the current version in the 750 is amazing intuitive and easy to use...