High End Luxury Cars

hpowders · January 2006

I hope anyone driving out there who has a need to be on a cell phone while driving and maneuvering through iDrive menus at the same time stays far away from me!

Still better than being on the cell phone, going through iDrive menus and reading the morning paper while the car is left on cruise control, I guess....

tagman · January 2006

What is very cool to me is that Voice Command is here NOW, and will just keep getting better.

rayng · January 2006

I have an '02, and was thinking of getting the 750--especially with the toned down Bangle butt. However, I'm intrigued by the new 'LS and am looking at an '06 S500. My wife thinks I should buy a minivan and use the left over $ for a '70 chevelle.

rayng · January 2006

Which systems have you used? And for the group, which have been pretty easy to learn and reliable to use? Is the voice command mainly a navigation feature? I understand that the RL and new GSs have voice command but I don't know if they are really all that useful.

tagman · January 2006

You should go and test the voice command systems themselves, along with the test drive. Depending upon the vehicle, voice command can control the entire audio system, climate control, tell you what time it is, assist with almost any navigation command, and place your phone calls for you, just by telling it what you want.

Since they are NOT all identical, the only way for you to know which ones YOU like would be for you to try them out. They are an important integral part of many new vehicles, and, therefore, should be part of the "test drive". I am a firm believer in voice command, as I have previously posted, and I think it will only improve over time.

bdr127 · January 2006

I have an '02, and was thinking of getting the 750

Yeah, I agree the 2002 iDrive was horrendous.... The current version is pretty good.

aabbcc112233 · January 2006

Avoid the Idrive and go with the MMI in the A8L its more intuitive. Plus, the closest A8 you'll see is 100 miles away. Also, the A8L isnt ugly

rayng · January 2006

Bangle has too much blame and credit for his designs. BMW should be applauded for their great sense of proportions and presence, as epitomized by the handsome and toned down 7 series.

Ultimately, style does have its limits especially when a $100k car is stuck in traffic as all the others.

Cars have no "soul." People do. The hyperbole lavished upon any vehicle is part marketing, part tradition, part experience, and at the end of the day purely up to the driver. BMWs are fun to drive, but so is a Porsche, Vette, Mini, Cobra, etc...

What's pertinent to this group is how much sportiness can be dialed into a luxury sedan. I want a car that can be comfortable for clients. The Lexus certainly fits that bill. And though the LS does not have the presence and prestige of Mercedes, BMW falls a bit short in the prestige category as well. Almost all of the cars we discuss here are fine automobiles and we're all lucky to afford to drive them.

rayng · January 2006

After seeing the A8L and the S8 at the L.A. auto show, I can certainly say that these cars are not ugly. They are gorgeous. If you guys haven't seen the '06 A8, check out the cars stance while parked. The sales guy claims that the air suspension lowers the car when parked giving it a nice crouched, slammed look. Would anyone in this group wait for the v10 this fall? I wonder how it compares to the v10 on the M5. I think the e55 still has the bragging rights for now--especially with the huge torque advantage. The replacement engine will have less torque but more hp to accomodate the new 7 speed transmission. I'll be sorry to see it go.

And for the existing Audi owners, how's your dealer experience? Reliability issues?

lexusi · January 2006

Read this:

What's Edmunds' Take?
And there's a hybrid LS still to come. The Germans had better prepare themselves.  Erin Riches

Source, www.edmunds.com

oac · January 2006

Instead of bragging that its interiors are made of wood from the same tree, give me a vehicle that will steer with road feel and whose steering wheel is not made out of slippery wood. Give me a car that will corner without body lean instead of like a big, bloated barge.

Give me a Bangle BMW 7 series!

Howard: Your needs and desire in a car are NOT necessarily those of the majority. You hardly even notice the interior content of your car... LOL.... Need I remind you that BMW is NOT the benchmark in the HELM space. Far from it. In fact, BMW's only claim to fame is its driving dynamics. That's it. Oh, lets add the 4/50K free maintainance service.... The Bangle design remains as polarizing today as it was 3 yrs ago when the new 7-series came out. I certainly do NOT like it any longer. Even the new e90 is a poke in the eye of Bangle. If Bangle is such a styling genius that everyone is copying, how is it BMW banished him, and ensured their new e90 will NOT be Bangled ?

The LS460 and the S550 will set the benchmark in this class starting in 2006. BMW would scramble to save 7-series sales. A re-do for the 7 won't be out of order, and soon too.

pat · January 2006

While not exactly the same different gear that merc1 proposed, you might be interested in 2006 Predictions: The Lunch We All Wish We Had an Invite To. What do you think?

pat · January 2006

You also may be interested in this article: First Drive: 2006 Maybach 57 S.

Just thought I'd mention this as well since I'm here.

hpowders · January 2006

You know, I kind of think your clients wouldn't object if you transported them in a BMW 760Li.
I and many, many others feel comparable BMW models are at least the equal in prestige as Mercedes.

Call it what you will: "soul" or an undefinable metaphysical something else.
All I know is BMW has it. Lexus doesn't.

I suppose you can prove your rather omniscient statement: "Cars have no soul. People do."

hpowders · January 2006

BMW banished Bangle?
I thought BMW promoted him indicating he will be with the company for a very long time.

rayng · January 2006

Most clients notice what I don't drive more than what I drive. One day, I pulled up in my wife's Honda and they wondered if my car was in the shop. It was.

Whereas my younger clients (30-40s) think bimmers are as good if not better than Mercs, most of my clients who are baby boomers do note a difference. As superficial and image conscious as we are(n't), many of the people I work for do notice.

As to what BMW has and Lexus does not, I think it's a matter of preference. My dad's ES330 is smooth quiet and refined. The 745 is fun, fast, comfortable, and also refined. I do enjoy driving down my parking garage during the weekends. But other than that, I don't get to drive the car as aggressively as I like. Ultimately, the difference between Lexus, BMW, and Mercs is a matter of preference.

BTW, I can't "prove" the supernatural. Can you prove BMW has a "soul"? :P

brightness04 · January 2006

So we agree that the original LS400 was much rounder than S class of
that time. The original LS400 still looks like a today's car, whether you
consider that Lexus or Toyota look is quite besides the point . . . the
point being that the original LS400 was at the very forefront of the
bigggest style transformation that has taken place since 1989: cars
becoming like melted soap shaped

At the same time we both agree that the S class in 1989 looked like
cars from an entirely different era, with the boxy styles of the 80's. How
in the world could Lexus be accused of copying a car that looked
entirely different?

The common luxury car themes, such as slab side, broad shoulder and
high belt time dates back to 1906 Rolls, regardles you know it or not. Why
not 1886? Because cars were toys for the rich back then, and the concept of luxury cars did not
exist, regardless how "really silly" you think it is.

The Mack Truck illustration is called Analogy. Please read analogies
carefully and understand the ramifications and what is being analogized
before tossing around words like "ridiculous." Calling someone's post "ridiculous" is not exactly a rebuttal.

pat · January 2006

And if it is not a rebuttal as you say, you don't need to respond defensively, yes?

To all, let's tone down the personal issues that are going on here. They are not doing anything whatsoever to contribute to an educating and stimulating discussion, so let's just leave them by the side of the, um, road. Okay??

Thanks.

hpowders · January 2006

Sure. Everyone who drives a BMW knows what I am talking about.
Call it soul or an indefinable something.
But BMW's got it.
Some people can see Tinkerbell. Some can't.
What can I say?

blckislandguy · January 2006

Let me tentatively suggest that when a professional or a vendor shows up in an S Class, 7 Series, etc. the image is one of a hard working rich guy driving, in all probablility, a leased car that is in large part a tax write off. Everyone knows this. The secretaries probably say, see one of 'em, seen 'em all. (Both the cars and the drivers.)

Imagine a different scenario. Maybe you work in a community with the climate of Chapel Hill, NC. You, Mr. CPA or you the folding box company president show up in a three year old Morgan with leather belts across the hood. Or maybe, you work/live in the snow belt and you show up in a mint 1986 Jeep Grand Wagoneer. Maybe you show up at the client's with a base 911 you bought 3 years ago. Tossed in the back is a gymn bag.

IMHO for those concerned about their image and their "presentation of oneself" the above vehicles convey a much more assured, less striving image. An image of a man of parts. Not just a guy that knows where to sign a lease. For a lot less money.

tagman · January 2006

This interesting point about a car having a "soul", . . .

I went to dictionary.com to see what was listed as the definitions, and most of the definitions were about the obvious spiritual meanings, but this one got my attention:

sole = The central or integral part; the vital core

So, a car DOES have a soul. And what it has always meant to many is that some cars have a "special feeling" when driven and have "unique characteristics" that "identify that particular car" or type of car for what it is.

When I was younger, I owned a Ferrari (I needed to get it out of my system I think) and it had qualities unlike ANYTHING I had ever driven. It had a soul. And so did my Carrera (no longer own, either). BMW's have a soul, Mercedes have a soul, as most cars do, of course. Not too long ago, on the autospies website, there was discussion regarding the problems with the Mercury vehicles. It was suggested that the problem with the Mercury vehicles was that they had no soul! And that was their very problem. Interesting indeed, and maybe true?

So who ever says a car has no soul . . . stands corrected by the dictionary definition as well as the obvious historical expressive use of the word as it applies to cars.

TagMan

dewey · January 2006

Not even my wife's 83 MB300D will scare off my clients!

My clients dont care what I drive as long as my investment advice makes them rich enough to afford a lifetime of high end marques.

tagman · January 2006

as it should be, dewey

dewey · January 2006

The following is an article from Businessweek. As you said voice recognition will make BMW idrive issues irrelevant:

Scott Nelson, an analyst for Honda's planning group in Torrance, Calif., says: "In a few years, voice-recognition will be good enough to let you say, 'Find me a Beatles tune,' and the stereo will search satellite radio or programmed music and find one."

hpowders · January 2006

Right. It's really a special exciting feeling that is transferred from a high performance vehicle to the driver.
If you have to ask, you haven't driven one of these vehicles.

tagman · January 2006

Right. It's really a special exciting feeling that is transferred from a high performance vehicle to the driver.

I would agree the feeling is probably most obvious in a high performance vehicle, but I would not go so far as to say all ultra-luxury cruisers lack soul. It's more likely just "different".

If you have to ask, you haven't driven one of these vehicles.

YES . . . or . . . as I believe . . . that some people simply do not "connect" with their car!

oac · January 2006

Let's see if we get this correct: The 745/750 has *soul*, but the LS430/460 doesn't ! Right ? Although I'd confine such statements to the realm of the sublime to the ridiculous, but YMMV...

Now let's move on.... Merc1's post on predictions is a good one and well worth our attention and comments.

brightness04 · January 2006

Sure. Everyone who drives a BMW knows what I am talking about.
Call it soul or an indefinable something.
But BMW's got it.
Some people can see Tinkerbell. Some can't.
What can I say?

I think HELM is quite a materialist pursuit, not that of the spiritualists. People who see Tinkerbell are an even smaller minority than those who see Santa Clause or tooth-fairy ;-)

brightness04 · January 2006

If you define "soul" as "the central or integral part; the vital core" how can anything be without "soul"? Even a homogeneous pound of cheese has a vital core, without which you will have less than one pound ;-)

Mercury vehicle certain has a soul by that definition; without the drive train there would be no functional Mercury vehicle.

IMHO, that definition cheapens "soul" in this context.

brightness04 · January 2006

Very much agree with the gist of what you are saying. A small exception: some professions do need a reliable car, which in the mechanical world often means a relatively new car if not brand new car from a reliable marque. That's one of the reasons why historically, HELM's were usually founded on a core value of reliability: Rolls had the Silver Ghosts that kept on ticking for 25yrs; Bentley had the 24hr race records, which in early days was more about reliability than sheer speed; Mercedes was the very definition of automotive reliability in the 70's and 80's. Other brands, even if expensive, were never really considered HELM brands, such as Ferrari, Lambo and to a lesser degree BMW (which even among BMW fans, are prized for the 3 series not 7 series).

tagman · January 2006

Let's see if we get this correct: The 745/750 has *soul*, but the LS430/460 doesn't !

oac, those are your words and not mine . . . there is no post where I ever said such a thing or even suggested such a thing.

tagman · January 2006

IMHO, that definition cheapens "soul" in this context.

Beat it to death if you want to, but I don't.

tagman · January 2006

Other brands, even if expensive, were never really considered HELM brands, such as Ferrari, Lambo and to a lesser degree BMW (which even among BMW fans, are prized for the 3 series not 7 series).

Ferrari and Lamborghini would be better classified in the exotic car category, IMO.

Further, maybe you should review how FORBES classifies the luxury car segment in their latest list of the top 10 luxury cars.

brightness04, Let me just say that I think you are stretching things a LOT to try to suggest that BMW does not (in ANY degree) belong in the H.E.L.M. category, merely because it is "prized for the 3-series". Heck, it is not uncommon for the H.E.L.M.'s to have lower-tiered models that account for the majority of units sold for that particular brand. I do not agree with your suggestion that the flagship models should represent the MAJORITY of units sold (or be "prized") in order for the brand to be classified as a H.E.L.M. That is absolute nonsense.
TagMan

oac · January 2006

...there is no post where I ever said such a thing or even suggested such a thing.

Not in so many words, perhaps... but all these talk about *soul* and its definitions from you and your BMW pals ad nauseum are difficult to comprehend within our HELM board, don't you agree ? We are discussing High End Luxury Marques, and we get statements like "BMW has soul but Lexus just doesn't" (quoting Hpowders).

Let's get back to talking about the merits/demerits of these cars. Now, do you have a comment about FY2006 and beyond for your fav German brands in the NA market ?

brightness04 · January 2006

brightness04, Let me just say that I think you are stretching things a LOT to try to suggest that BMW does not (in ANY degree) belong in the H.E.L.M. category, merely because it is "prized for the 3-series".

The point was not made based on unit sales. I was merely repeating what some BMW fans said, that 3 series being far better at capturing the essence of the BMW brand than the 7 series. BMW is more a sporting brand, along the lines of Porsche, Ferrari and Lambo (not quite as exotic), not a luxury brand in the traditional sense.

brightness04 · January 2006

Beat it to death if you want to, but I don't.

I may be a little slow here (late at night and all), so please elaborate. You claimed to have found a definition of "soul" that makes it possible for a car to have a "soul"; following that same definition (your found), I pointed out that that definition would endow every car, and indeed most everything a "soul" . . . which somehow conflicts with your earlier statement that European cars have "soul" whereas Japanese cars don't . . .

jrock65 · January 2006

"Toyota Australia executive director of marketing David Buttner says the new-look Camry carries a lot of styling cues from the Lexus. It has a similar bull-nosed bonnet, bold grille and lumpy rear end of the Lexus LS460, which was unveiled the previous day."

I thought that Toyota was seeking to separate the Lexus and Toyota more. But then you have an exec come out and say that the plebian Camry was styled similarly to the Lexus flagship??? Errr...

http://carsguide.news.com.au/story/0,20384,17792707-21822,00.html

tagman · January 2006

Those were Hpowders' words, in that case, and not mine. I do not want to be labeled as belonging to one "camp" or another. If you agree or disagree with something I say, then I would be respectfully interested to know your point of view. OK?

tagman · January 2006

I may be a little slow here

It's looking like it.

your earlier statement that European cars have "soul" whereas Japanese cars don't . . .

NEVER said it! Tell me the post number where you think I said such a thing . . . and then I'll get back to you. Gosh, I am assuming that you do know how to determine who the author of a post is, and who the author is replying to?

merc1 · January 2006

The original LS400 still looks like a today's car, whether you
consider that Lexus or Toyota look is quite besides the point . . . the
point being that the original LS400 was at the very forefront of the
bigggest style transformation that has taken place since 1989: cars
becoming like melted soap shaped

First of all the original LS400 looks nothing like the slab-sided LS430, nothing at all. Secondly if you call re-hashing old Mercedes cues from the 80's and rounding them off a "transformation" fine with me, however the LS400 didn't go down in the history books as any such thing when it comes to styling.

At the same time we both agree that the S class in 1989 looked like
cars from an entirely different era, with the boxy styles of the 80's. How
in the world could Lexus be accused of copying a car that looked
entirely different?

I've explained this many time, see above.

The Mack Truck illustration is called Analogy. Please read analogies
carefully and understand the ramifications and what is being analogized
before tossing around words like "ridiculous." Calling someone's post "ridiculous" is not exactly a rebuttal.

Honestly Brightness if you had read the post instead of looking for something to cry foul about, you would have seen where I said it would be ridiculous to get into a conversation about your Mack truck "analogy", not that your post itself was ridiculous.

M

merc1 · January 2006

How dare him say something like that! That can't possibly be true!

M

designman · January 2006

He's a Toyota exec riding Lexus coattails.

lexusguy · January 2006

The restyles of both Camry and LS will only increase their domination further. Maybe they look to much a like, maybe not. In terms of sales, it wont matter a bit. Camry Inc. will beat many automakers by itself.

hpowders · January 2006

Well if I said it Oac, why pin the blame on Tagman?

Also, why do you react like BMW is an anathema to the HELM board every time I talk about it.
Last I looked, the BMW 7 series is part of this thread.

dewey · January 2006

The restyles of both Camry and LS will only increase their domination further. Maybe they look to much a like, maybe not. In terms of sales, it wont matter a bit. Camry Inc. will beat many automakers by itself

The similarity will have a positive impact on the sales of the Camry and a negative impact on the sales of the LS. Many people will be turned off in buying a look-alike Camry at a premium price. Many people will love buying a value priced Camry that looks like a LS.

The BMW sausage concept was a historic success because it reinforced the "different size but same DNA idea". A "sausage concept" between a Camry and a LS may not be as warmly accepted in image conscious North America where the brands of Toyota and Lexus are viewed as being quite distinct.

scott1256 · January 2006

The Camry does look like the LS460 but I see it as a plus.

A unified styling theme gives cohesion and makes the Lexus/Toyota brand stronger.

Will anyone really refuse to buy an LS460 other Toyotas models have a family resemblance?

dewey · January 2006

Will anyone really refuse to buy an LS460 other Toyotas models have a family resemblance?

Yes!

oac · January 2006

Well if I said it Oac, why pin the blame on Tagman?

Also, why do you react like BMW is an anathema to the HELM board every time I talk about it.
Last I looked, the BMW 7 series is part of this thread.

B/w your *soul* comments and Tagman's search for a definition, it can get all mixed up... You are a self-confessed non-LUXURY car owner and buyer, but this board puts LUXURY first in the cars we discuss here. That is why it is labelled High End Luxury Marque. That is also why Pat_Host continually injects himself to get us talking about the HELM to which the 7 is an important part. The 7-series is a LUXURY full size sedan, but biased towards sportiness, more so than the S or the LS. That is a wonderful attribute of the 7 to be admired and respected. But, where Lexus biases towards the luxury scale, you continually bash it as a "floating barge". My LS does not ride like a Buick, or a Ford Grand Marque with body-on-frame chassis; the LS is a uni-body chassis built to the highest level Japan can offer. It is the very best from Japan, period. And seems to be the very best here in the NA market as well, at least in its class.

For those who want luxury at the high end, the LS has met their needs more so than the S or 7. The 7 has had 2+ years on the LS to show itself to the market, and failed... The new LS460 will show BMW what a luxury full size sedan truly should be, and the market will speak in droves buying this car more than the 750i. My prediction.

dewey · January 2006

For those who want luxury at the high end, the LS has met their needs more so than the S

The Lexus LS has met luxury needs better than the MB S?

If you want to focus on luxury how about backing up your assertions with facts?

oac · January 2006

Maybe u missed the part where the LS outsells the S for the last 5 years running.... Need a link ??? The market is the final arbiter of these debates. And the LS is far more popularly bought/leased YoY than the S-class sedans. That is a fact.

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