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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    This statement of yours that people will refuse to buy the LS460 bcos it bears styling resemblance to the Camry is not borne on any FACT ! Neither the 2007 Camry nor the 2007 LS460 has been released for sale. But I can understand where you are coming from: a strong desire to see the LS460 fail, throwing all sorts of dirt on it... This car, LS460, will change once again its sector much more so than the new 7-did (nada), and the battle will be with the new S450/550.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I think the LS is too good of a car to be supported by such a weak argument that is based on sales volumes, especially when a comparable MB S costs far more.

    Lower priced luxury cars like the LS do sell at greater volume than higher priced cars like the MB S . And lower priced luxury cars will sell at greater volume primarily due to price and not due to superiority. You do know that dont you?

    So my question to you again is what makes the LS superior to the MB S?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    But I can understand where you are coming from: a strong desire to see the LS460 fail, throwing all sorts of dirt on it..

    Your rhetoric does confuse me?

    Why do I want the LS460 to fail? Why do I want to throw dirt on the LS? Tell me how my life will improve if the LS fails :confuse:
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    You see Dewey sales = "best" whenever a Lexus is the bestseller within its class. If the Lexus isn't the bestseller it is best due to reliability. The standards change to fit the situation.

    Don't dare mention that the LS' best in class sales are done *in part* accomplished a lower price than all the German competition because all you'll get is "everyone can and/or does lease".

    Forget that the LS has up until now competed with the entry-level versions of the S-Class, 7-Series, and A8, it is still seen as the "best" in U.S. market. The upper level cars from the German makes mean nothing because they aren't luxury cars, especially the 760Li and S600. Yes this is true, seen it myself.

    Lastly we exactly what each buyer was looking for, this explains why the LS is so popular because everyone's criteria is the same the LS is best at meeting this standard set of criteria.

    Makes sense doesn't it?

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Dewey, if two luxury cars were the same in EVERY way, including price, in the eyes of buyers, EXCEPT that one had higher prestige, do you think that the higher-prestige one would sell more units?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Makes sense doesn't it?

    Too much sense, especially for this forum;)
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    Why even mention HELM cars if the definition of success is units sold?

    Using sales as the measurement means Ford/Chevy trucks are the 'Best'.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Dewey, if two luxury cars were the same in EVERY way, including price, in the eyes of buyers, EXCEPT that one had higher prestige, do you think that the higher-prestige one would sell more units?

    Based on what you are saying above the answer is yes the higher prestige model would sell more units.

    Now I am waiting for the second part of your question?
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Oh boy here we go again,
    Bill Parcells has this great quote, "You are what your record says you are.." You all seem to forget these Automakers are in the business of making MONEY...Prestige and handling don't feed the family, $$$ does. I can't think of a single industry that doesn't measure success with Revenues and Profit...

    We already know the LS series is the most reliable luxury car built period. It has high residuals and cutting edge electronics that actually work. They have class leading Navigation Systems and Dealers. They win practically every OBJECTIVE measure out there. Maybe this is why the LS does so well?

    The German detractors of Lexus push this propaganda that the Lexus has "Barge like" handling..Yet a review done by Road and Track didn't say that. It finished in the middle of the pack even though they didn't test the Sports Suspension model. They even acknowledged that the test was flawed! No one is claiming a Lexus will outhandle a BMW...Remember it isnt SUPPOSED to. What we are saying is that it is competent.

    As for the Prestige angle...Pan AM, GM, and Boeing all thought the same way about their competition and look where it got them...Boeing has only recovered due to focus on Product and not Bluster...

    SV
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    So, doesn't that mean that higher prestige is "worth" something? That if a higher prestige (but otherwise exactly the same) car was priced higher than a lower prestige car, that the higher prestige/higher price car could actually sell the same number of units as the other car, as long as the higher price were in line with the higher prestige?
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    I think the LS is too good of a car to be supported by such a weak argument that is based on sales volumes, especially when a comparable MB S costs far more.

    First off, this is a truly weak excuse for the S. I have said repeatedly, and Merc1 also agreed, the LS costs less bcos it is produced more efficiently at a lower cost. Conversely, the S costs more becos it is produced at a higher cost. Except if you are asking MB to sell its high-end marque cars at steep losses... to match the LS in price. This is an MB problem, not Lexus'... Besides didn't C&D (or is it RT) in 2004 comparo of the class leaders had the 2004 LS430 beat out everyone in its class ? Need a link to that too ?

    Lower priced luxury cars like the LS do sell at greater volume than higher priced cars like the MB S.

    More excuses.... Wrong again. The Land Cruiser is priced anywhere from $5K-$10K LESS than its cousin, the LX470. Guess which sells MORE.... Yep, its the higher-priced LX470.

    So my question to you again is what makes the LS superior to the MB S?

    Lets see again. The LS entered the NA market in 1989, and in 15 short years, became the #1 selling luxury full-size sedan its market. And like I said, the very best from Japan against the very best from Germany. The market spoke, and loudly too.... And many objective tests have shown the LS to be consistently ranked higher than the S.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Dewey:

    Reliability, Sound system, Quiet, GPS system, Features for the price, Ride...

    BMW has slightly better sport handling, MB Is almost as quiet and almost as nice a ride, many think has a more pleasing look but is much more expensive...and far less reliable.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    To some extent, the Japanese cars, in general, years ago, initiated their surge in sales due to the favorable yen/dollar exchange rate. Additionally, their reliability statistics were beginning to prove themselves. Also, they were a relief valve for the frustration over increasing gas prices. (Remember the big "gas crisis" in the late 70's, and long lines at the pumps?) For the most part, they were a good reliable value that delivered great fuel economy as well. The earliest models were not very sophisticated, but at that time there was the "Z" car from Nissan (known as Datsun back then), and it became an icon for its time. After a while, Toyota countered with their "Lexus type" approach with the Supra . . . in other words more plush, but less performance. Then came the Maxima (with the Z engine) from Nissan, and Toyota responded with the "Lexus approach" again and introduced the Cressida.

    This is the early foundation, and the American public was eating up the Japanese cars like candy, as the Honda dealerships had waiting lists, and the first Mazda RX-7 sent more shockwaves through the industry. Interesting times. Toyota UNDERSTOOD this and had secret meetings in the early mid-eighties to introduce the Lexus line. By the time Lexus was first released in 1989, Japanese cars were quite mainstream, and the "VALUE" reputation and perception was deeply ENGRAVED into the American consumer's mind.

    So, it was little challenge to deliver the goods to a consumer already geared up for DECADES. Had the price of the Lexus vehicles been too high, they would have been no match for the European cars, but the "VALUE" was clear and deliberate, and the American public embraced the Lexus. Lexus did it right, with J.D. Power ratings working in their favor, and HUGE advertising from Toyota, the Lexus had become the "value" in luxury cars.

    Therefore, with the historical momentum behind Japanese cars, favorable pricing had been a key ingredient in the Lexus success story. MANY people would have otherwise bought the German counterparts, but the "value" of the Lexus was too compelling. The rationalization being "Why buy this German car, when I can get a Lexus for so much less money?" To further reinforce this thinking was the acceptance of other family, friends, and associates regarding the "acceptability" and "appropriateness" of the Lexus decision. Not only could it be rationalized to the buyer, but it made sense to his social surroundings where he could receive sufficient positive reinforcement about his buying decision. What a perfect formula for success!

    TagMan
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "The similarity will have a positive impact on the sales of the Camry and a negative impact on the sales of the LS."

    Good luck with that prediction on the LS. I see the LS smashing its' sales records by alot in year one and holding on much stronger than the 2001 restyle did in the following years. They'll increase their lead and domination of the segment with this car. If your prediction is right sales should fall to the low-mid 20k's. You really believe that is going to happen with 3 models of choice and the write-ups this car is getting??
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    favorable pricing had been a key ingredient in the Lexus success story

    Well, of course. If Lexus in 1989 had tried to price at the same level as the (then) much more prestigious MB, it wouldn't have had much sales success. There had to be something to counter the 100-year heritage and greater prestige.
  • ideleidele Member Posts: 200
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I also dont buy that argument one bit. The LS has been fighting the "big Camry" stigma since day one. Newsflash: the people that call it that would never buy a Lexus anyway, so I dont see this latest restyle costing Lexus any sales in the least. Unlike say.. the Acura RL, the LS460 really is not a big Camry.
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    It's fair to say that the car should be judged on it's merits. It doesn't happen very often, the RL is one of those times. Great car, but the styling turns to many people off. No snob appeal in driving a 50k car that resembles a mid 20k car.
    The RL is still a great car in spite of the family heritage IMO. I think the new Lexus is clearly going to be huge seller based on it's merits, and the great reputation that Lexus has earned over the years.
    The Audi A8 is my choice for cars in this segment, but clearly us Audi lovers are the minority. Unfortunate because this car is truly great but, hampered by reputation.
    All that to say, the new LS looks like a big ol Camry :P
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Interesting how you presume to know that our host Pat must be a "he."
    I would bet against you on that one, but that is really neither here nor there.

    The new Toyota LS460 will have a long way to go to displace the BMW 760Li in luxury and performance.
    Toyota is playing catch-up. BMW surely isn't.

    Hey, Merc1 doesn't even own a Mercedes but his posts about Mercedes and the other HELM's are always among the most articulate and penetrating on this thread.
    Just because I drive a 545i doesn't exclude me from posting here despite what you think.
    Since when is what someone drives a prerequisite to posting on the HELM board?

    I drove the 2005 LS several times and was most unimpressed-from the flabby over-assisted steering, the slippery wooden steering wheel and the barge-like body lean.

    Let's be honest. The LS is nothing more than an over-priced Toyota and Toyota has done you Lexicans a favor by making the Camry and LS almost indistinguishable in style to help remind you of this fact.

    From here on in, I will always refer to this car as what it really is:
    the 2007 Toyota LS 460.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    The new Toyota LS460 will have a long way to go to displace the BMW 760Li in luxury and performance.

    Displace it in luxury? How is the 7 more luxurious?

    Performance? That is more debatable. In torque, hp, straight-line acceleration, the LS is going to win vs the 750. In "driving dynamics" the 7 imho will win, at least among the sport minded.

    Toyota is playing catch-up. BMW surely isn't.

    Look at the sales figures in this country and then tell me who's playing catch up with the buying public.
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    Lot's of hilarity here. So before anyone thinks I'm anti Lexus
    that new S class looks like they hired Todd Bridges to steal the fenders off a Mazda RX8 and glue them on the new Benz.
    Nice to see Todd's getting some work outside of Hollywood. Nice work T, stay off the crack pipe.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    new S class looks like they hired Todd Bridges to steal the fenders off a Mazda RX8 and glue them on the new Benz.

    It was funny a day or so ago when one of the german car fanatics said the fenders on the new S would be "copied" by others in the industry. As if prominent fenders were some sort of MB innovation, hahaha!
  • grandaddygrandaddy Member Posts: 66
    Bottom line, Lexus is superior to BMW or Mercedes, regardless of price. This simply cannot be objectively denied. It should have its own class (supercar) above the other two. There is really no comparison. Any rational person could see and understand this. Period.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Oac, Ljflx… did you guys call in the Lexican National Guard?

    ;-)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    How can a Toyota with all the mediocrity that name implies be considered superior to BMW or Mercedes?
    The Lexicans have fallen for the biggest dupe in marketing:
    Rebadging a Toyota and calling it something else to pretend it's now a "Luxury Vehicle."

    Gimmee a break!
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    "Lower priced luxury cars like the LS do sell at greater volume than higher priced cars like the MB S. "

    Why bother with these lame reasons? We've all been thru this before a million times. The reason the LS sells in greater numbers to the S-class is always because of lower price! Yet, none of the LS detractors can seem to explain how similarly priced competition(ES vs. C-class or RX vs. ML320) can work in Lexus' favor also? I mean if the LS sells in greater volume because of it's price advantage, shouldn't the entry level C-class Benz be outselling the ES330? Or shouldn't the similarly priced MB ML be clobbering the RX??? Yet, the similarly priced RX turns the ML into cow manure!

    Also, if the above statement were true, how can one explain the abysmal sales of the Infiniti Q45 or Jaguar XJ? If sales were largely dependant on price, the Q should be smashing sales records!
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Rebadging a Toyota and calling it something else to pretend it's now a "Luxury Vehicle."

    Please educate me on why a 750 is more of a "Luxury Vehicle" than a LS.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Performance, perhaps not, but the BMW 7 series is one of the LEAST luxurious cars in the HELM segment. Both the A8 and the new S blow it out of the water in that respect. It doesnt even have the best performance in the segment, either. The Quattroporte has better performance, and is much more luxurious. "The Ultimate Also-ran".
  • grandaddygrandaddy Member Posts: 66
    Sorry, but it is you who has fallen for the hype that less is somehow more. I fell for the hype back in 1985 and bought a new BMW 325. How did I like it? Well yesterday I was figuring up all the cars I had bought over the years and got up to 41. Today I remembered #42. You guessed it. The '85 Bimmer!!
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    As a digression, I too have to admit that the best cars I ever had were my 1993 and 2002 325i's.
    Pure luxury does nothing for me if the performance characteristics are lacking.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Don’t bristle or respond to this latest bag of bluster. They’ll never get it. Never.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Say what you will. The simple fact is the BMW 760Li will most likely run rings around the Toyota LS460 pseudo-luxo-barge.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    How can so many people be so wrong about so little?

    Designman is unfortunately correct:
    The Lexicans will never get it.

    A simple prescription:
    Drive the BMW 760Li for yourselves instead of just regurgitating stuff you read somewhere, like I took the time to drive your incredibly over-rated LS 430.
    Then come back here and we'll talk.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Designman is unfortunately correct:
    The Lexicans will never get it.

    Never get what? That "driving dynamics" are only thing that matter in a High End Luxury Sedan? Uhhh...if that's the case in your eyes, then as Lexusguy suggested, why are you raving about the 7 and not the Quattroporte?

    As far as your comparison of the 760 to the LS460, please remember that we know next to nothing about the LS600h.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Hey, Merc1 doesn't even own a Mercedes but his posts about Mercedes and the other HELM's are always among the most articulate and penetrating on this thread.
    Just because I drive a 545i doesn't exclude me from posting here despite what you think.
    Since when is what someone drives a prerequisite to posting on the HELM board?

    How did you come into this conclusion, Howard ? Just when I thought we were becoming friends, now you just blow it all out of proportion. I simply quoted you that you don't care much for luxury, you said as much yourself, right. So why beat on me for echoing your words ? And being a fan of Merc1 doesn't mean I have to be as well....

    Let's be honest. The LS is nothing more than an over-priced Toyota and Toyota has done you Lexicans a favor by making the Camry and LS almost indistinguishable in style to help remind you of this fact.

    An overpriced Toyota, eh ? Good one. But I thought you wanted to give the car a spin, No ? Now it appears you are bitter against it, slaming it. Won't be the first time a German fan has called all Lexus vehicles as over-priced Toyota.... Now Lexus (ehm, overpriced Toyota) is the #1 selling luxury nameplate in America. Good for them...

    From here on in, I will always refer to this car as what it really is: the 2007 Toyota LS 460.

    You'll be in a single digit minority on that one.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    The Quattroporte is considerably more money and its drive train goes out of the luxury realm with sport, from the high-revving engine to the sequential gearbox. The reviews knocked it for city driving. It’s a tuner barge. Furthermore, service access is limited, extremely limited. So the 7-Series/Quattroporte comparisons aren’t very convincing.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    "The Lexicans have fallen for the biggest dupe in marketing:
    Rebadging a Toyota and calling it something else to pretend it's now a "Luxury Vehicle." "

    Yet, you *supposedly* went out and almost bought a GS430!

    The Lexicans have fallen for the biggest dupe, or the europhiles have fallen for the biggest dupe? Huh...questions, questions.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    When is the S class being launched in the US?
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Actually he thought it was a great car and wanted it badly. But he's just toying around and having fun with these posts now, don't take them seriously.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I remember when he was cross-shopping. He got caught in the Lexican frenzy until he drove the GS… whoa... pop went the balloon, end of show… it ain’t no BMW. Hence he bought the 545.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    For a very good reason.
    I have never driven a Quattroporte.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    And was that GS a huge disappointment.
    No "soul" as they say in Metaphysics 101.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    This is how I'd rank the exteriors and interiors in this class.

    Exterior:

    1) S550: 9
    2) A8: 8
    3) LS460: 6
    4) 750i: 4

    Interior:

    1) LS460: 8
    1) A8: 8
    3) S550: 7
    4) 750i: 6

    (I'm not a BMW hater btw... I think the 3 series is the best looking car in its class.)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    When I slam a vehicle, I make sure I have driven it several times.
    What can I say? I didn't feel the LS was worth $60k+.
    I had an open mind about it and wanted to like it but didn't due to the reasons I have previously posted.
    I plan on driving the LS460 when it hits the showrooms.
    If I see driving improvments over the LS430, I will say so.
    We can still be friends-sort of like Bush and Chavez. ;)
  • baller4ever85baller4ever85 Member Posts: 14
    many delarships already have the black/balck s550 demo. they should be offcially on sale next month. the s450 will come out a couple months after that in the spring.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I didn't almost buy a GS430. I was given an incredible leasing offer probably because I showed the salesman such lukewarm interest.
    Even that very good offer wasn't enough to put me in the driver's seat of what I consider to be an inferior automobile.

    The key point is: I have an open mind. I will drive any LPS or HELM from any company.
    I want to be impressed.
    So far the only company that has done so is BMW.
    What do you want me to say?
  • douglasrdouglasr Member Posts: 191
    Lexus came to America as an export model only, not available in Japan initially. That allowed Toyota to beat the World Trade Organisation regulations and gain market share by selling it undervalued for $38,500 in America. Moribund products from Cadillac and Lincoln handed customers to Lexus. Today the story is different, while the LS460 may be packed with equipment, it is: BORING. Cadillac, with Simon Cox at least is trying; Lincoln is seemingly lost with new designs in the pipleine from Messrs. Horbury and J. Mays; BMW's Haptic Approach to design has won them many new customers they never had; Mercedes has dollowed their lead. No matter how you cut it, Toyota is afraid to enter the very top reaches of the market even though they want 15% of the global market. So they satisfy themselves with moderate designs packed with equipment and (hopefully) fail-safe reliabiliy. But that leaves it all to BMW, Mercedes, Cadillac (they're trying), Bentley, and Rolls-Royce. Mr. Zetsche will hammer back with Imperial: and the V-10 is what they need to put the pedal to the metal against Lexus, and maybe the nail in the Lincoln coffin. Lexus might be a fine premium sedan, but it is NOT at the top of the market.

    DouglasR
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "while the LS460 may be packed with equipment, it is: BORING"

    So you sat in one and drove one and know that it's boring huh?
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I'm just curious . . . does the Lexus LS460 excite the SENSES or the INTELLECT?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I think the comparison is quite reasonable. Start putting options on a 750, and its not that much cheaper than a Quattroporte. The LS460 is comparable to the S550, is it not? There's a huge price difference there as well.

    Maser's latest SMG is reasonably smooth in full-auto mode, (not quite as good as Audi's DSG, but better than any other SMG I've tried). I didnt know a high-revving engine cant be in a luxury car. What does service access have to do with anything? Is there a Bentley or RR dealer on every corner? Does that mean those arent luxury cars either?

    Fact is, the 750i cant compete with the Maser. BMW would need a Motorsport version with an SMG or a stick to even try.
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