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Lower priced luxury cars like the LS do sell at greater volume than higher priced cars like the MB S . And lower priced luxury cars will sell at greater volume primarily due to price and not due to superiority. You do know that dont you?
So my question to you again is what makes the LS superior to the MB S?
Your rhetoric does confuse me?
Why do I want the LS460 to fail? Why do I want to throw dirt on the LS? Tell me how my life will improve if the LS fails :confuse:
Don't dare mention that the LS' best in class sales are done *in part* accomplished a lower price than all the German competition because all you'll get is "everyone can and/or does lease".
Forget that the LS has up until now competed with the entry-level versions of the S-Class, 7-Series, and A8, it is still seen as the "best" in U.S. market. The upper level cars from the German makes mean nothing because they aren't luxury cars, especially the 760Li and S600. Yes this is true, seen it myself.
Lastly we exactly what each buyer was looking for, this explains why the LS is so popular because everyone's criteria is the same the LS is best at meeting this standard set of criteria.
Makes sense doesn't it?
M
Too much sense, especially for this forum;)
Using sales as the measurement means Ford/Chevy trucks are the 'Best'.
Based on what you are saying above the answer is yes the higher prestige model would sell more units.
Now I am waiting for the second part of your question?
Bill Parcells has this great quote, "You are what your record says you are.." You all seem to forget these Automakers are in the business of making MONEY...Prestige and handling don't feed the family, $$$ does. I can't think of a single industry that doesn't measure success with Revenues and Profit...
We already know the LS series is the most reliable luxury car built period. It has high residuals and cutting edge electronics that actually work. They have class leading Navigation Systems and Dealers. They win practically every OBJECTIVE measure out there. Maybe this is why the LS does so well?
The German detractors of Lexus push this propaganda that the Lexus has "Barge like" handling..Yet a review done by Road and Track didn't say that. It finished in the middle of the pack even though they didn't test the Sports Suspension model. They even acknowledged that the test was flawed! No one is claiming a Lexus will outhandle a BMW...Remember it isnt SUPPOSED to. What we are saying is that it is competent.
As for the Prestige angle...Pan AM, GM, and Boeing all thought the same way about their competition and look where it got them...Boeing has only recovered due to focus on Product and not Bluster...
SV
First off, this is a truly weak excuse for the S. I have said repeatedly, and Merc1 also agreed, the LS costs less bcos it is produced more efficiently at a lower cost. Conversely, the S costs more becos it is produced at a higher cost. Except if you are asking MB to sell its high-end marque cars at steep losses... to match the LS in price. This is an MB problem, not Lexus'... Besides didn't C&D (or is it RT) in 2004 comparo of the class leaders had the 2004 LS430 beat out everyone in its class ? Need a link to that too ?
Lower priced luxury cars like the LS do sell at greater volume than higher priced cars like the MB S.
More excuses.... Wrong again. The Land Cruiser is priced anywhere from $5K-$10K LESS than its cousin, the LX470. Guess which sells MORE.... Yep, its the higher-priced LX470.
So my question to you again is what makes the LS superior to the MB S?
Lets see again. The LS entered the NA market in 1989, and in 15 short years, became the #1 selling luxury full-size sedan its market. And like I said, the very best from Japan against the very best from Germany. The market spoke, and loudly too.... And many objective tests have shown the LS to be consistently ranked higher than the S.
Reliability, Sound system, Quiet, GPS system, Features for the price, Ride...
BMW has slightly better sport handling, MB Is almost as quiet and almost as nice a ride, many think has a more pleasing look but is much more expensive...and far less reliable.
This is the early foundation, and the American public was eating up the Japanese cars like candy, as the Honda dealerships had waiting lists, and the first Mazda RX-7 sent more shockwaves through the industry. Interesting times. Toyota UNDERSTOOD this and had secret meetings in the early mid-eighties to introduce the Lexus line. By the time Lexus was first released in 1989, Japanese cars were quite mainstream, and the "VALUE" reputation and perception was deeply ENGRAVED into the American consumer's mind.
So, it was little challenge to deliver the goods to a consumer already geared up for DECADES. Had the price of the Lexus vehicles been too high, they would have been no match for the European cars, but the "VALUE" was clear and deliberate, and the American public embraced the Lexus. Lexus did it right, with J.D. Power ratings working in their favor, and HUGE advertising from Toyota, the Lexus had become the "value" in luxury cars.
Therefore, with the historical momentum behind Japanese cars, favorable pricing had been a key ingredient in the Lexus success story. MANY people would have otherwise bought the German counterparts, but the "value" of the Lexus was too compelling. The rationalization being "Why buy this German car, when I can get a Lexus for so much less money?" To further reinforce this thinking was the acceptance of other family, friends, and associates regarding the "acceptability" and "appropriateness" of the Lexus decision. Not only could it be rationalized to the buyer, but it made sense to his social surroundings where he could receive sufficient positive reinforcement about his buying decision. What a perfect formula for success!
TagMan
Good luck with that prediction on the LS. I see the LS smashing its' sales records by alot in year one and holding on much stronger than the 2001 restyle did in the following years. They'll increase their lead and domination of the segment with this car. If your prediction is right sales should fall to the low-mid 20k's. You really believe that is going to happen with 3 models of choice and the write-ups this car is getting??
Well, of course. If Lexus in 1989 had tried to price at the same level as the (then) much more prestigious MB, it wouldn't have had much sales success. There had to be something to counter the 100-year heritage and greater prestige.
The RL is still a great car in spite of the family heritage IMO. I think the new Lexus is clearly going to be huge seller based on it's merits, and the great reputation that Lexus has earned over the years.
The Audi A8 is my choice for cars in this segment, but clearly us Audi lovers are the minority. Unfortunate because this car is truly great but, hampered by reputation.
All that to say, the new LS looks like a big ol Camry :P
I would bet against you on that one, but that is really neither here nor there.
The new Toyota LS460 will have a long way to go to displace the BMW 760Li in luxury and performance.
Toyota is playing catch-up. BMW surely isn't.
Hey, Merc1 doesn't even own a Mercedes but his posts about Mercedes and the other HELM's are always among the most articulate and penetrating on this thread.
Just because I drive a 545i doesn't exclude me from posting here despite what you think.
Since when is what someone drives a prerequisite to posting on the HELM board?
I drove the 2005 LS several times and was most unimpressed-from the flabby over-assisted steering, the slippery wooden steering wheel and the barge-like body lean.
Let's be honest. The LS is nothing more than an over-priced Toyota and Toyota has done you Lexicans a favor by making the Camry and LS almost indistinguishable in style to help remind you of this fact.
From here on in, I will always refer to this car as what it really is:
the 2007 Toyota LS 460.
Displace it in luxury? How is the 7 more luxurious?
Performance? That is more debatable. In torque, hp, straight-line acceleration, the LS is going to win vs the 750. In "driving dynamics" the 7 imho will win, at least among the sport minded.
Toyota is playing catch-up. BMW surely isn't.
Look at the sales figures in this country and then tell me who's playing catch up with the buying public.
that new S class looks like they hired Todd Bridges to steal the fenders off a Mazda RX8 and glue them on the new Benz.
Nice to see Todd's getting some work outside of Hollywood. Nice work T, stay off the crack pipe.
It was funny a day or so ago when one of the german car fanatics said the fenders on the new S would be "copied" by others in the industry. As if prominent fenders were some sort of MB innovation, hahaha!
;-)
The Lexicans have fallen for the biggest dupe in marketing:
Rebadging a Toyota and calling it something else to pretend it's now a "Luxury Vehicle."
Gimmee a break!
Why bother with these lame reasons? We've all been thru this before a million times. The reason the LS sells in greater numbers to the S-class is always because of lower price! Yet, none of the LS detractors can seem to explain how similarly priced competition(ES vs. C-class or RX vs. ML320) can work in Lexus' favor also? I mean if the LS sells in greater volume because of it's price advantage, shouldn't the entry level C-class Benz be outselling the ES330? Or shouldn't the similarly priced MB ML be clobbering the RX??? Yet, the similarly priced RX turns the ML into cow manure!
Also, if the above statement were true, how can one explain the abysmal sales of the Infiniti Q45 or Jaguar XJ? If sales were largely dependant on price, the Q should be smashing sales records!
Please educate me on why a 750 is more of a "Luxury Vehicle" than a LS.
Pure luxury does nothing for me if the performance characteristics are lacking.
Designman is unfortunately correct:
The Lexicans will never get it.
A simple prescription:
Drive the BMW 760Li for yourselves instead of just regurgitating stuff you read somewhere, like I took the time to drive your incredibly over-rated LS 430.
Then come back here and we'll talk.
The Lexicans will never get it.
Never get what? That "driving dynamics" are only thing that matter in a High End Luxury Sedan? Uhhh...if that's the case in your eyes, then as Lexusguy suggested, why are you raving about the 7 and not the Quattroporte?
As far as your comparison of the 760 to the LS460, please remember that we know next to nothing about the LS600h.
Just because I drive a 545i doesn't exclude me from posting here despite what you think.
Since when is what someone drives a prerequisite to posting on the HELM board?
How did you come into this conclusion, Howard ? Just when I thought we were becoming friends, now you just blow it all out of proportion. I simply quoted you that you don't care much for luxury, you said as much yourself, right. So why beat on me for echoing your words ? And being a fan of Merc1 doesn't mean I have to be as well....
Let's be honest. The LS is nothing more than an over-priced Toyota and Toyota has done you Lexicans a favor by making the Camry and LS almost indistinguishable in style to help remind you of this fact.
An overpriced Toyota, eh ? Good one. But I thought you wanted to give the car a spin, No ? Now it appears you are bitter against it, slaming it. Won't be the first time a German fan has called all Lexus vehicles as over-priced Toyota.... Now Lexus (ehm, overpriced Toyota) is the #1 selling luxury nameplate in America. Good for them...
From here on in, I will always refer to this car as what it really is: the 2007 Toyota LS 460.
You'll be in a single digit minority on that one.
Rebadging a Toyota and calling it something else to pretend it's now a "Luxury Vehicle." "
Yet, you *supposedly* went out and almost bought a GS430!
The Lexicans have fallen for the biggest dupe, or the europhiles have fallen for the biggest dupe? Huh...questions, questions.
I have never driven a Quattroporte.
No "soul" as they say in Metaphysics 101.
Exterior:
1) S550: 9
2) A8: 8
3) LS460: 6
4) 750i: 4
Interior:
1) LS460: 8
1) A8: 8
3) S550: 7
4) 750i: 6
(I'm not a BMW hater btw... I think the 3 series is the best looking car in its class.)
What can I say? I didn't feel the LS was worth $60k+.
I had an open mind about it and wanted to like it but didn't due to the reasons I have previously posted.
I plan on driving the LS460 when it hits the showrooms.
If I see driving improvments over the LS430, I will say so.
We can still be friends-sort of like Bush and Chavez.
Even that very good offer wasn't enough to put me in the driver's seat of what I consider to be an inferior automobile.
The key point is: I have an open mind. I will drive any LPS or HELM from any company.
I want to be impressed.
So far the only company that has done so is BMW.
What do you want me to say?
DouglasR
So you sat in one and drove one and know that it's boring huh?
Maser's latest SMG is reasonably smooth in full-auto mode, (not quite as good as Audi's DSG, but better than any other SMG I've tried). I didnt know a high-revving engine cant be in a luxury car. What does service access have to do with anything? Is there a Bentley or RR dealer on every corner? Does that mean those arent luxury cars either?
Fact is, the 750i cant compete with the Maser. BMW would need a Motorsport version with an SMG or a stick to even try.