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Open mind, eh ? OK... I'll grant you that. But what did you expect if you've been driving a 3-series for 12 years and suddenly test drive a GS430 and an LS430 ???? These cars are not even remotely close to what a 3-series is. I am curious what you'd expect the GS and LS to drive like, since these cars are mid- to large-sized sedans, with little to no sporting pretensions relative to a small, compact 3-series.... I don't see a 3-er driver kicking the tires of a GS/LS and coming out raving about how they drive... not gonna happen...
Like Bush and Chavez ??? Eekkkeee, u must not like me at all... Why ???
MB also builds zillions of cheapie C, E and S cars that litter the roads of Europe as taxi-cabs. You can see plenty of them at European airports... I've ridden in many of them on business trips. I suggest some of you German fans take a trip to Europe and see things for yourself about your MB, BMW and Audi cars on taxi cab ranks... If MB sells any of these cheapie ones here, there luxury marque brand name will suffer greatly in brand-conscious America... They are no different from Toyota, but you won't find the Celsior (LS430) on every street corner in Tokyo as a taxi cab. You'll find the Celsior taxi/limo at the high-end hotels, like you'll find some S500 or Maybach.
We've been over this before, but both BMW and MB blow Lexus away in US car sales. (2005 Sales: BMW=197k / MB=183k / Lexus=151k)
The RX330, by itself, sold over 100k units last year. In fact, Lexus actually sold more SUVs last year than cars..... However, BMW sold more X5s than Lexus did their GX470 (37k to 34k).
Total sales, of course, pushes Lexus up to 300k, BMW to 266k, and MB to 224k.
So, really, if you take only one vehicle out of the entire Lexus equation (RX330), things are entirely different and the results quite flip-flopped. Interesting to think about...
#1 Luxury Nameplate in America... And you come back with car sales... So a nameplate is only about cars ??? Yep, German car fans discount anything that doesn't advance their argument... like it doesn't exist, eh ?
Take away RX330/400h sales to reduce Lexus sales #s, eh ? Yep... Since it will advance the point you are trying to make, which doesn't hold water, as you yourself proved with the ~40K lead in sales over the nearest BMW competitor.
BTW, how many of the 266K cars/SUVs from BMW were 3-er sales ??? So why not take away the 3-series # and see where that leaves BMW in total sales ???
My point was that it was interesting to note that if you simply removed the RX330, Lexus' standing is much different.... Try not to take that as an insult. I'm just pointing out the numbers.
I do remember at the time saying the steering was wishy-washy, the brakes were too grabby and I couldn't get comfortable in the driver's seat.
TagMan
Oh wait, those are just "poseur-mobiles", as someone said before. (previous post)... so I shouldn't have even counted those in the first place...
I really did try and like the GS 430 but it didn't meet my expectations. As a matter of fact, I stated that the GS300 handled better but I wanted a more powerful engine.
True: I did get the 545 for less than the GS430 (about $25 a month less) and I did say the BMW comfort seat was better than the GS' drivers' seat, but if the GS outhandled the 545, knowing me, I would have shelled out for the GS.
The way a car drives is still #1 with me and $25 a month is almost insignificant to me.
Actually, MB, Porsche, Audi and BMW are desperately trying to catch up to the market. From the X3/X5, Cayenne/Touareg, to the GL, followed by the Q7, and then a me-too R-class clone from BMW. Pretty soon, all the Germans would be band-wagonning on SUVs and minivans..... What would die-hard, car enthusiasts then think of their fav German brand ???
2390 of 2808 Re: No GS 430 for me [maxhonda99] by hpowders Jun 06, 2005 (3:37 pm)
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Replying to: maxhonda99 (Jun 06, 2005 2:47 pm)
Thanks for putting some sanity into all this. I'm not a reckless driver and I do mostly highway driving so hopefully I can get more than 15k out of those tires.
I just got another nice lease offer and I do believe I will take them up on it.
I love the GS430.
I maintain to this day that the GS300 is a better car than the GS430. If only it had more power.
Honest mistake: the dealer slipped me a GS300, not a GS430! He probably didn't have a 430 at that time for me to drive.
Definitely not mea culpa!
I am a victim of circumstance and I will not retract my nomination to the US Supreme Court.
hpowders,
Looks like you've been pinned! ljflx has most definately nailed you. Just admit you suffered from temporary insanity already, and that was your frame of mind at that moment in time. The bigger question is ... have you recovered?
TagMan
Road test coordinator Marc Noordeloos performed the complicated procedure, took a test drive, and, while grinning from ear to ear, pronounced the car transformed.
Someday there might be a simple switch so that the "driving dynamics" crowd can simply turn the thing off.
I drove the real GS430 two times after that and I knew the first car obviously wasn't the 430.
I then asked to drive the GS300 and sure enough I realized the first dealer slipped me a GS300.
I guess on seeing my disheveled appearance (hot Florida day), the first dealer could have assumed the 430 was out of my league.
Now you are really looking bad. This wasn't your only indication of love or desire for the car - so take tagmans advice. Plus you were getting ready to pay GS430 prices for a GS3??
Useless procedure, given that generally only "Lexus" drivers will be behind the wheel of a Lexus anyway. In fact, disabling the VSC could endanger a "Lexus" driver's life! Attention Lexus drivers . . . NEVER try this at home...this procedure to be performed by professional BMW drivers only.
(OK, just kidding . . . don't get like oac and have a stroke)
TagMan
It needs a better driver's seat and a bigger engine.
The dealer made me the offer after driving the second GS430, but I had issues with the brakes, steering and driver's seat.
It was a good offer but since I didn't jump at it, how in love with the GS430 could I have been?
If I did love the car, the dealer never would have made me that offer in the first place.
I know you were kidding, but why use me as the poster child for Lexus ? And I will let you know that I love sporty cars, for now, family needs dictate my car needs. Once the kids are off to College, I plan on something a lot more fun. I have said that repeatedly on this forum.
At least I realized a little later that it wasn't the GS430.
The guy wasn't trying to sell me a GS300 for a GS430 price.
Simple miscommunication. Hey it happens.
After all this grilling, I don't even get the supreme court seat.
Geesh!
All in all, too much "innovative interference" on the GS430 for me.
The VDIM switch was a non-issue for me.
I drive fast but I'm not suicidal.
I would park it in the back of Lexus Florida Corporate.
Believe me, Lexus needs no help in Florida.
There are almost as many Lexi down here as man-eating 'gators.
What am I doing here?
Now that Toyota/Lexus is emulating Bangle all of a sudden Lexicans are united in thier admiration for the Bangle curves of their upcoming LS460.
I hereby declare that all Lexicans should be put on trial based on their anti Bangle posts from prior years.
How about - Enjoying the sun.
I was just down in Sarasota on business a month ago when it was freezing up here. But I stayed in Tampa at the Renaissance Vinoy. Great hotel. It was 84. Came home to a snowstorm in NY and asked the same question to myself.
How about - We don't see the resemblance. But I guess the big 7 is a big Camry to many of you if that's what you see though.
Yes! But if you are trying to suggest that a LS is equal to a MB S, forget it! Prestige is reflected in price premiums but prestige also has to be earned with good engineering and design. As I said before if the only advantage MB S has over the Lexus LS is prestige then MB S would be in the same dire consequences as Jaguar is right now.
Completely disagree!
MB is not as cost efficient as Toyota just as Toyota is not as cost efficient as Hyundai. This is not about cost efficiency but about how highly MB is perceived relative to the LS and the willingness of buyers to pay bigger bucks for an equivalent MB.
Good luck with that prediction on the LS.
I am willing to wager that after the first year of intro, LS sales will fizzle and fall flat like Coca Cola sitting in a glass for three days!
How many buyers of a RL know that they are driving a car with the same platform of an Accord? Certainly not a majority. The RL does look distinct from the current Accord and most buyers can easily be fooled.
How many potential buyers of a Lexus LS460 will know that the Camry and a Lexus LS have different platforms when both look so much alike? Certainly not a majority.
Oh yes we forum members can look beyond the pretty styling of any car and view its chassis and drivetrain with X-ray vision. But the majority of buyers outside this forum lack our X-ray vision and cannot look beneath the skin of a car. The majority of buyers will be swayed primarily by appearances and that is the key liability of having a LS resemble a oversized Camry .
Only time will tell!
Lot's of Lexi there, that's for sure.
For you. I have no doubts.
If buyers are willing to pay bigger bucks for the S why does the LS continually trounce the S in sales YoY for the last 5 yrs running ? Hmmmm.... could it be bcos they are NOT willing to pay bigger bucks, especially where there is a very comparable or better car in the LS ???
I gave you an example of the LC v LX470. Loaded, a 2006 LX470 retails for $70K. A loaded 2006 LC retails for $60K, a $10K difference. Yet, the higher priced LX470 sells more units than the lower priced LC. Meaning: people will pay for quality. There is a real quality difference b/w these two trucks. If the S430/500 are that much better than the LS, people will gladly pay the higher price, and MB should sell lots more than the cheaper LS.
Finally, let's do a comparison: How many variants of MB sedans are there v Lexus models ? How many sales of MB cars/SUVs v Lexus cars/SUVs ? How many MB dealerships v Lexus dealerships ???
No, dewey, it's going to stay carbonated for years to come, although, there's been some sort of chatter about bad transmissions and hesitation issues in the Lexus and Toyota counterparts. Hmmm, maybe there's a slight hairline crack in the Lexus reputation?
Do you folks realize the volume of messages you are all posting? This forum has been running for just over 6 years, and for those first 6 years there were an average of just over 2000 messages per year (BTW, merc1 had 2 of the first 10). Since January 1st of this year, there have been 722 posts in just 13 days - that's the equivalent of over 20,000 posts per year, or over 10 times the previous rate of posting.
So if that's the quantitative analysis, how about a qualitative analysis? Does anyone believe that the rantings about the "barge-like" qualities of the LS, or the failure of the BMW 7 to be a true HELM, or the superiority of the LS being proven by its sales (as opposed to sales showing that the LS better captures what the American public wants in a car than the S does), or - perhaps what IMHO will be the worst prediction ever made on this board - that the new LS will fail in the marketplace after the first year*, really add anything to our shared knowledge about luxury cars?
How about this as a New Year's resolution for 2006: let's shoot for less quantity and more quality!
*Dewey, I hope your stock picks are better than your auto sales projections! Do you really think that by fall 2007 LS will no longer be the sales leader in this segment? If so, I'll take that wager with you - you choose the amount.
The LX470 doesn't have a Sequoia equivalent sitting next to it taking away sales. There's a reason why Lexus is planning to replace the LX altogether with a Sequoia based JX470.