High End Luxury Cars

ljflx · January 2006

Why would I think what?

That the driver view would be the top pix. See my other post for the rest.

designman · January 2006

I didnt say the top view was the driver view. Essentially, I said that it contains the IMPRESSION I will see when I finally get to sit in the drivers seat. It is the shot that gives me the sense of actual proportions, dimensions and ambience.

ljflx · January 2006

I misunderstood your point.

lexusi · January 2006

The battle will be hard this time, MB, BMW you better have something in your pockets, coz lexus will smoke you all!!

Lexus has also emboldened the exterior design, flaring and widening the wheel wells, pulling the roofline back, eliminating the door moldings, strengthening the sheetmetal's convex/concave intersections, and raising the tail end. Super sophisticated equipment including adaptive radar cruise control, a lane departure warning system (I posted this before, it is called LKA -Lane Keep Assist-), and infrared night vision technology are also available on the new 2007 Lexus LS 460.

Source: http://www.autoweb.com/content/shared/articles/templates/index.cfm/article_id_in- t/976

Lexusi

tagman · January 2006

The sentiment is exactly how I feel about BMW (too rough riding to be high end luxury),

Naturally, there are those that would not necessarily make BMW their top pick for a variety of reasons, and obviously many do love Bimmers and make it their number one choice, of course . . . but to EXCLUDE them from being high end luxury is going overboard, IMHO.

(BTW, I am not biased for or against BMW in general. I am just amazed at your exclusionary remark.)

designman · January 2006

Actually, it would be good if Lexus kicked some butt. It would sharpen up the Germans. But I suppose this means the Germans will try to outdo them with technology, slathering on frivolous feature on top of frivolous feature, sticking their hands in our pockets while doing it. That goes for the Japanese too.

tagman · January 2006

Actually, it would be good if Lexus kicked some butt.

designman - Lexus has been kicking butt for some time now.

ljflx · January 2006

Tagman - completely agree. BMW promotes sport over luxury but to exclude them from rank is absurd.

hpowders · January 2006

Not the first Toyotist-Lexican to attempt to exclude the 7 series from this board.
I mentioned my preference for the 760Li just the other day and was shot down for it-'the BMW is far lower in luxury (read "boredom") than the LS,' yada, yada. Ad nauseum.

hpowders · January 2006

We BMW-philes do have "something in our pockets."
The great, incomparable Comfort Access key fob which makes starting up our matchless, smooth inline engines, which nobody else has been able to copy, that much easier to start and achieve that ultimate driving sensation a little faster.

As a compassionate person, I can empathize with your frustration.
It is, after all, quite maddening to try and defend the undefendable.
Good luck with that.

Of course, the obvious solution for relief would be for you to visit your nearest BMW dealer as quickly as possible and drive a 760Li.

tagman · January 2006

The 760Li may not be everyone's preference, but to go through a massive rhetorical puking process to try to NUKE it (and others as well) . . . is . . . well . . . you know.

. . . consider the source?

hpowders · January 2006

These folks who put down BMW-I wonder how many of them have actually driven the 7 series?
Someone earlier spoke of "integrity."
It would be nice if people will qualify their criticisms by indicating their experience driving a specific vehicle they claim they don't like.
If someone says he doesn't like the 7 series-fine-tell us specifically what you didn't like-the steering, brakes, seats, legroom, body lean, maneuverability on passing, the suspension, iDrive, trunk, acceleration, hi-fi system, quality of the leather and wood?
"Not luxurious enough to be on the HELM board" doesn't cut it and is usually the kind of remark made by someone who has not driven the vehicle.

oac · January 2006

"The great, incomparable Comfort Access key fob which makes starting up our matchless, smooth inline engine, which nobody else has been able to copy...."

Baiting posters can only go so far before it starts to lose its point.... A smooth I6 engine is not unique to BMW, neither is a keyless go system. BTW, the keyless start system on the BMW is inferior to that in the Lexus IS or GS. In the latter, you simply depress the brakes, press the Start button, and off you go. Can the BMW do that ???? NOT ! And the LS460 one-ups the IS/GS system with a Smart Card, doing away with a key altogether and setting the bar even higher. SO which technology is incomparable, Howard - the old one in the Bimmer or the new one in the IS/GS/LS ?

pat · January 2006

a lurking troll ...

:shades:

hpowders · January 2006

Who was baiting whom?
For every action there is a reaction.

The first batch of Comfort Access cars required you to ridiculously insert the key fob into a slot and push a button while depressing the brake.
The current 2006 models let you carry the key fob in your pocket, depress the brake and push a button just like the Smart Key.

I see that Lexus will be instituting a credit-card device in place of a key fob for the LS460. I wonder if that will work in one's wallet?
I would hate to have to carry a thin card like that loose in a pocket.

lexusi · January 2006

Smooth inline engine?? yah right, tell that to someone that drives a lexus, i tried BMW, and found it noisy and harsh just like all euros, coming to the ENGINE COPY!, who wants to copy an engine that is 5.0 Liter and produce 360 HP, and has this EPA MPG....

MPG (city) 17
MPG (highway) 25
MPG (combined) 20

Annual Greenhouse Gas Emissions of 9.50 tons

Source: http://www.fueleconomy.gov

more on that engine:

4.8L V8
360 hp at 6,300 rpm
360 lb-ft of torque at 3,400 rpm
5.8 seconds to 60 mph

BTW, the LS430 and not LS460 beats those EPA estimations

lets see what the LS460 will do, with its highly advance super smooth silky engine (BTW DUAL FUEL INJECTION, try to beat that) that outdo in HP, torque, MPG and greenhouse effect

try to copy that my friend

or at least come close to it, and BTW the 750i is not inline is V shaped engine! same goes to 760i also 12V, hmm intersting

Lexus Era

Lexusi

designman · January 2006

Lexus has been kicking butt for some time now.

BMW is doing better than ever and MB is not doing as bad as their woes suggest. You call that kicking butt? Cadillac and Lincoln are getting their butts kicked, and not only by Lexus.

lexusi · January 2006

The first batch of Comfort Access cars required you to ridiculously insert the key fob into a slot and push a button while depressing the brake.

which car you meant here? is it the LS430? becoz according to my info, since 2001 the LS430 had a smart key, that opens the doors, start the engine without leaving ur wallet, no need to insert it anywhere (although there is a key hole, that is used if the key is low in battery (as an emergency) but I have one, 2002 model, and there is absolutely no need for you to have the key in ur hands, once you are close to the car, the lights on the lower side of the mirrors start to welcome you, and then once you touch the door handle it opens the car, then just turn the ignition w/out the need to insert the key!

yah as you brought this, i wanted to ask, how does the previous SMART key of the 2002 7 series worked, i guess there was a key fob? wierd and what about the new one, the 2006 model, iam not sure but someone told me, if you are 3 feet away from the car with the key, the doors get open! really? becoz thats not smart IMHO

Lexusi

tagman · January 2006

In an expanding marketplace, if Lexus sales are growing in the American market, it must be at some expense. Yes, BMW can boast their sales figures, and so can MB, and I do love the Eurocars, but the Lexus IS something MAJOR to contend with, and I will not join the ranks of ANYONE to be in denial of that.

designman · January 2006

Well, I'm insulted that you won't join my ranks. While we're on the subject, which ranks would they be? I never said Lexus isn't to be contended with. What I said is that I wouldn't mind seeing the Germans sharpen their products by way of a competitive butt kicking. Hasn't happened yet.

lexusguy · January 2006

In my opinion, this is taller, and more imposing than the new LS center stack. Luxurious, yes, but I find the switch gear to be rather cheesy.

oac · January 2006

Lexus went from 0 sales in 1989 to 300K+ sales by end of 2005. Sure the market expanded, new markets created, some died, but these sales are outstanding by any measure. So much that Lexus became #1 luxury nameplate 6 years running. Someone is losing market to Lexus. And as MY2007 rolls in later this year, the IS will win more sales, the GS is holding its own, and the new LS will definitely win some. I seriously don't see the new S winning sales, more like retaining its market share and holding off the LS460L. And that will be a tough order.

designman · January 2006

The center stack is bulky and imposing but I think it is integrated better into the dash. Its not a separate entity as on the LS460. The lines also have the horizontal character that I prefer. Im not exactly crazy about it either but like it better than the LS 460. The Lexus touch screen is the hands-down winner over iDrive IMO. But thats a different subject.

oac · January 2006

Even more so in the new S550... This interior, especially the dash and center stack is certainly NOT a strong suite, imo. Clean look, no doubt, but I don't think it looks $85K+ car to me.

designman · January 2006

Well, as you mentioned, the overall market has grown since 1989 and everyone has benefited. We went from one to two to three car families. Can someone analyze who has taken the biggest pieces of the pie since then? Im sure they can and would like to hear about it. But the simple fact remains that Lexus aint conquering the world like Alexander the Great, Hannibal and the Roman Empire.

hpowders · January 2006

for all of us if Lexus continues to improve the LS.
BMW and MB won't be standing still.
We consumers continue to benefit as the cutting edge of HELM's continues to be re-defined through healthy competition.
No losers in this game among BMW, MB, Toyota-Lexus, IMO.

oac · January 2006

Well, as you mentioned, the overall market has grown since 1989 and everyone has benefited. We went from one to two to three car families. Can someone analyze who has taken the biggest pieces of the pie since then? Im sure they can and would like to hear about it.

I would love to see the analysis too. My neighbor has 5 cars, for a 2-person family. We sure live in excess of our needs sometimes. The new LS460/460L/600h would peel off even more S and 7-series buyers, and expand the market and sales growth even more.

But the simple fact remains that Lexus aint conquering the world like Alexander the Great, Hannibal and the Roman Empire.

I have to disagree somewhat. Where did all 300K sales come from ? Cadillac, Lincoln, MB, mostly. The new car-based SUV market for the RX, and the obliteration of the mid-size lux market by the ES. Of course, the LS did its share peeling off a large chunk of would-be and ex MB owners.

dewey · January 2006

A smooth I6 engine is not unique to BMW,

The smooth BMW i6 is not unique? Please tell me another manufacturer that offers such a smooth I6?

dewey · January 2006

Where did all 300K sales come from ? Cadillac, Lincoln, MB, mostly.

MB, who are you kidding? MB sales have grown tremendously since the introduction of Lexus.

oac · January 2006

MB sales have grown tremendously since the introduction of Lexus.

Care to back this up with facts ? How much %-wise has MB sales grown since 1990 ? This is also a period when MB was dominating the HELM market, but now is #4 in sales...

dewey · January 2006

Care to back this up with facts ?

As far as I know Lexus was introduced before 5 years ago! Lexus started in 1989 or 1990 and MB sales grew quite substantially since those years!

Also MB sales at the tail end of 05 grew quite nicely indicating the beginning of a turnaround.

And the Lexus LS remains a lower priced alternative to a MB S. There are more Tissot watches sold than Omegas due to price. Despite higher sales volumes, Tissots are not considered superior to Omegas. I dont why that is so hard for many forum members to understand?

Syswei pointed out you got to consider how prestige and price offset each others to find out if the Lexus LS or MB S is superior. Such a task is not quantifiable and a waste of time. The fact remains MB S is the Luxury BEnchmark since they are most valued by the market. In fact the MB S is more valued than an equivalent BMW 7 series.

oac · January 2006

And the Lexus LS remains a lower priced alternative to a MB S.

The well-worn and untenable excuse of pricing rears its ugly head once again. Let's repeat once again: If the S is such a higher prestige car to the LS, why is the price difference hampering its sales ??? Or, is the S and LS on the same marque brand level, where price becomes the only difference ???

Maybe Tissots are not better than Omegas, but the LS has beaten the S in head-to-head competition. So the LS is better than the S, and I'd ask you to point to any aspect that the S trumps the LS in. Any ????

dewey · January 2006

Maybe Tissots are not better than Omegas, but the LS has beaten the S in head-to-head competition.

The Lexus LS beat the MB S in head to head competition. Please englighten me with the facts? It appears the world and myself are quite ignorant.

garyh1 · January 2006

I didnt say the top view was the driver view. Essentially, I said that it contains the IMPRESSION I will see when I finally get to sit in the drivers seat. It is the shot that gives me the sense of actual proportions, dimensions and ambience.

Actually, I think Len was right the first time on this issue. First, I have to say that we haven't actually sat in the new car yet, so we are really all just speculating. And certainly, as designman said, pictures can lie. But the low perspective of the first pic is not one that the driver would ever see to create any impression. I am pretty confidant of that based on experience with the current model, which has a very similar long lower expanse on the passenger side. What isn't so obvious is that most of the lower mass drops away towards the front of the car, so it doesn't show up to either the passenger or the driver nearly as much as this picture seems to suggest. For example, the items on the lower part of the driver's side can't be seen at all by the driver; as a matter of fact, one of my complaints is you have to feel your way to hitting the gas tank flap opening button - there is no way you can see it without twisting your body way down low.

And I actually like the shape of the center stack more than in the current model. To my eye, the NAV and electronics at the top of the stack coordinate much better with the lower portion; the one thing I don't like about the current version is that there is no smooth transition from the dash materials at the top to the wood panels below. The vertical ribbon of buttons along the sides in the new version better pull the whole stack together.

I also like the more monotone color of the display model better than the high-contrast two-tone version in the pics you posted (even though both my LS and my MB E have the similar two tone beige/taupe theme).

Yikes, now I'm disagreeing with designman and, perhaps, Len, too. Next, Pat is going to brand me a troll!

grandaddy · January 2006

You mean sort of like that remark by designman about the dash in the LS 460 being too high? He certainly hasn't driven it nor has he been inside it. Maybe he just needs a booster chair?

lexusi · January 2006

Although in my IMHO I do not judge the car by its sales, but thats why manufacturers produce cars? to sell no to display?! anyhow, Lexus sales were shown against BMW sales, and here is the other part of the story, the MB sales (USA only), lets see how tremendous it is! yah BTW, here is an intersting point:

"Posting its best sales month with 31,192 units sold in December, MBUSA marked its strongest year-end finish with a 17.2 percent increase over last December's sales, the company's former best sales month on record"

this is for you to judge -->>> "The GS 300/430 achieved best-ever year-end combined sales of 33,457 units"

the GS alone beats the MB sales!! no need to say more

read this:

Lexus sales

source:
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/01/04/205146.html

Total MBUSA sales,

2004 - 221,610
2003 - 218,717
2002 - 213,225
2001 - 206,638
2000 - 205,614

an increase of 1.00% hmm no 1.1%?? is that tremendous according to europhiles dictionary?

Source:
www.mbusa.com

see the details below!! and keep saying MB sales increased tremendously!!

Model Dec '05 Dec '04Monthly % YTD 2005 YTD 2004 Yearly %

C-CLASS 9,806 8,870 10.6% 60,658 69,251 -12.4%

E-CLASS 6,334 7,576 -16.4% 50,383 58,954 -14.5%

S-CLASS 1,912 2,378 -19.6% 16,036 20,460 -21.6%

CL-CLASS 196 255 -23.1% 1,320 2,683 -50.8%

SL-CLASS 1,098 1,081 1.6% 10,080 12,885 -21.8%

CLK-CLASS 1,748 2,115 -17.4% 18,227 22,556 -19.2%

SLK-CLASS 976 1,701 -42.6% 11,278 7,360 53.2%

CLS-CLASS 1,230 n/a n/a 14,835 n/a n/a

R-CLASS 2,430 n/a n/a 4,959 n/a n/a

M-CLASS 5,340 2,458 117.2% 34,959 25,681 36.1%

G-CLASS 122 173 -29.5% 1,334 1,491 -10.5%

SLR 200 45 344.4%

Maybach 152 244 -37.7%

GRAND TOTAL 31,192 26,607 17.2% 224,421 221,610 1.3%

source:
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/01/04/205146.html

Once again i say, IMHO, i dont consider selling more is being the best although it is the main point of building cars, but if this figures are joined with top quality, top features and so, IMO, LEXUS IS THE BEST

global Lexusization :P

Lexusi

lexusi · January 2006

MB sales did increase, but well not tremodously!! they did a good job, thanx to lexus that taught them how to build luxury cars, i say, this belongs to lexus, otherwise MB cars were/will be the same until now if there was no lexus

2004 - 221,610
1993 - 61,899

something around 3.6 % !

will you compare it to lexus growth!! hmm NA!

Lexusization of the world

Lexusi

oac · January 2006

The Lexus LS beat the MB S in head to head competition. Please englighten me with the facts? It appears the world and myself are quite ignorant.

You asked, and I am pleased to inform: Better be ready with excuses....

1) 2004 Motor Trend Comparo (1st = A8L, 2nd = LS430)
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/luxury/112_0409_class/index14.html

2) 2004 Car and Driver $70K sedan comparo (1st = LS430)

Ranking (last place = S430)
6. Mercedes-Benz S430, Price as tested $87,975
5. Volkswagen Phaeton, Price as tested $69,800 est.
4. Audi A8L, Price as tested $74,690
3. BMW 745i, Price as tested $79,145
2. Jaguar XJ8, Price as tested $64,595
1. Lexus LS430, Price as tested $70,380

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?article_id=7248 (it may be archived now, but I have the actual print copy - Dec 2003 edition)

dewey · January 2006

Ok so two reviews confirm what you are saying! What does that prove?? There were magazine reviews from prior years that showed the Lexus IS300 and the Infiniti G35 as superior to the BMW 3 series. Despite these reviews the BMW 3 series remains the benchmark sport sedan.

Sport sedans are my focus. I have no expertise in luxury crusers as it appears you do not have expertise in i6 engines . So I am left with my last secret weapon that will be able to provide a whole slew of other reviews that shows the superiority of the MB S.

Let me alert my secret weapon: Calling Merc1 , calling Merc1, I do need your assistance!!!

tagman · January 2006

Without relying on lots of data, for the moment, let us consider that WITHOUT Lexus, what choices would the high end buyer have? Then go ahead and add Lexus to that mix, and there is going to be subtraction at SOME level from the other possible selections. That substraction, theoretically, should be equal to the number of Lexus's sold. Simple enough. Lexus has shaken things up. The flip side is that competition is usually a good thing for those that can endure the process. For those that can't endure it, it's bye-bye-baby.

hpowders · January 2006

2004? Who cares about 2004? Who's looking backwards?
That's ancient history in this dynamic business.

My prediction may come as a shock so brace yourselves, loyal readers:
The BMW 760Li will win the next Car And Driver HELM Comparo, assuming the testers don't die of boredom after testing the Toyota/Lexus entry and are still around to test the other vehicles. Hope they test that one last, so we will at least be able to read the notes of the dynamic vehicles that blend luxury and performance left behind by the comotose testers.
Why the heck do you think BMW is advertising so much at that magazine?
At the very least, they should be able to come up with a win after spending all those Euros.

hpowders · January 2006

And BMW can and will endure it.
Thanks to Japanese quality control, BMW has noticeably offered a much more reliable product.
We consumers all benefit from healthy competition.

lexusguy · January 2006

Dont think so, chief. The BMW is yesterday's news. The winner of the next full size comparo will be either a Lexus or a Mercedes. The BMW will be midpack with Audi, and Jag. No Phaetons this time.

dewey · January 2006

hpowder you are beginning to be indoctrinated by those Lexicans. What has reliability got to do with performance/handling/ride/luxury/design/ exterior and interior fit and finish?

oac · January 2006

Sport sedans are my focus

Thanks for letting us know. Unfortunately, this is NOT a sport sedan forum, so what do we make of your past & present contributions ???

I have no expertise in luxury crusers as it appears you do not have expertise in i6 engines....

As to I6 engines, what makes u conclude as such ? Pls speak for yourself, don't rope me into the "I have no expertise" excuse....

dewey · January 2006

Thanks to Japanese quality control, BMW has noticeably offered a much more reliable product.

hpowder you are beginning to be indoctrinated by those Lexicans. What has reliability got to do with performance/handling/ride/luxury/design/ exterior and interior fit and finish?

oac · January 2006

2004? Who cares about 2004? Who's looking backwards?
That's ancient history in this dynamic business.

Of course its history bcos your German car brands lost to the LS430... Figures. These are auto rags who love the German cars but are objective enough to declare the LS430 as top notch among its peers.... Bitter pill for some German car fans to swallow, no doubt. BTW, the current 2006 versions of these cars are mostly the same, with a few engine upgrades (745 --> 750). So what's really different between MY2004 and MY2006 for the HELM comparo ??? You tell me...

ljflx · January 2006

Gary - I feel the same way you do. Sometimes I'm fumbling for the seat heater buttons and a few other things. But having experience with the current car and the RX I know full well you never will see that view of the first image Dman posted - unless you get into the car on your knees.

oac · January 2006

Please tell me another manufacturer that offers such a smooth I6?

Toyota offers an I6. Was in the IS300 as recent as MY2005. This engine is silky smooth, but old technology compared to the new direct injection V6 in the IS350. More fuel efficient, more tunable, and newer more modern technology... Out with the old, buddy... This is 2006 !

designman · January 2006

Actually, I think Len was right the first time on this issue. First, I have to say that we haven't actually sat in the new car yet, so we are really all just speculating. And certainly, as designman said, pictures can lie. But the low perspective of the first pic is not one that the driver would ever see to create any impression.

Well theres really no right and wrong here. I was just giving my impressions and opinion. Let me put it this way. I pretty much know exactly what I see in photos, can parse the jump from 3D to 2D and can judge the technical details involvedsize, proportion, dimension, scale etc. What I am saying is, according to what I see in the photos, I know almost exactly what I am going to see and the ambience I am going too feel when I sit in that drivers seat. I am in no way speculating in this regard. Now, others may need to do it live but trust me, I dont. 99% of the time I know what I am going to see live. You will rarely if ever hear me say it looked one way in the photos and another way live. For all intent and purpose, I HAVE sat in the front seat of the LS460. Same goes for the exteriorI have seen it live. Same with the MB S. By the time they actually get here, they're a year old already.

The only thing we really cant judge from the photos is textures, material quality, build quality, the fine distinctions in color etc. But I never give opinions on these aspects at this stage.

However let's not confuse physical perception with aesthetic opinion. They are very separate.

High End Luxury Cars

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