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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Offered. The 2JZ-GTE Supra\SC\IS\GS motor has finally been put to rest with the new IS. Also, Jaguar used to have some wonderful I6 engines. In 2006 though, BMW is pretty much the last one, everybody else uses V6s or flat 6s now. I6s are just not space efficient.
  • lexusilexusi Member Posts: 65
    there is far more casio watches than rolex!! but you can not compare things in this way, compare in the same segment, Tissot is not in the same league as the omega, and dont forget the material, diamonds and so, its not ABC its complicated, but Lexus do sells more than MB thats for sure, is it better becoz it sells more, no i disagree but yes it better becoz it has better quality, features and so, in other words, if you are measuring how succeful a car is by its sales, then MB is better than Lexus is europe!! no, things wont go this way, the sales are adjuvant to the other things the car has, thats what makes a good car not only sales, but sales show how succeful it is.

    back to the story of who is cheaper, do u think that a lexus buyer can not buy a MB or BMW? i bought a lexus not becoz i dont have the money to buy others, becoz i liked the car, and one more important point here, why do MB sells lesser cars for a higher price!! isnt that cheating? why do lexus offers far more options for lesser price, lexus quality is better, engineering is better, options is better, and far more reliable? so whats with the germans?

    iam not saying MB, BMW are bad, but lexus is much better :) at least IMHO, and back to the same thing, ppl are different, that why both lexus, MB are selling good, not becoz lexus sells cheaper cars, hmm what about cadillac or infiniti both have lesser prices? do they sell more?? NO, why? becoz Lexus is the BEST in IMHO

    Lexusization of the WORLD

    Lexusi
  • martianmartian Member Posts: 220
    I mean, we don't see them i the USA-but surely Peugeot, Renault, Citroen must market lines of luxury cars-what are they? Does Citroen still make limousines for the President of France? Or do French bigwigs drive Mercedes? (sacre bleu!)?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    As to I6 engines, what makes u conclude as such ? Pls speak for yourself, don't rope me into the "I have no expertise" excuse....

    In that case let me repeat my question to you: What i6 compares to the current BMW i6 engines? And please dont give me a history course about the outdated IS300 engines. The current BMW i6 is very unique! I just wanted to inform you, that's all.

    Thanks for letting us know. Unfortunately, this is NOT a sport sedan forum, so what do we make of your past & present contributions ???

    This forum is about viewpoints on HELMs and has nothing to do with my motives and intentions for being here. As a LPS fan I am here for a logical reason but I dont have to disclose my reasons to you or anyone.(Hint: auto buying decisions also involve spouses).
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I6s are just not space efficient.

    Yeah that is one disadvantage. But you forgot to mention the advantages of i6 engines. I6 engies are more effient and smoother than v6s. That counts for something, dont you think?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Question to Lexicans:

    If the LS430 is close to being as good as an MB S or a BMW 7 series, then why are LS sales so crappy in Japan itself? Could it be because the Japanese are not crazy about LS cars that resembles the ideal concept of what a 21st Buick should be like! Is it not that the LS is a soft American definition of what a luxury car should be? Unfortunately the LS does not fulfill the worldwide definition of what a luxury car should be! The MB S and BMW 7 series does fulfill that defintion bang on!!
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    If you go back to the original C&D comparo, you will see there was a mild disclaimer that C&D doesn't usually review vehicles such as the LS430.
    I wonder what they meant by that?
    Perhaps, that they aren't interested in vehicles that make them bored and comatose?
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Simple. Just dial 1-800-MERC-1.
    Then:
    For Mercedes, press one
    For BMW, press two
    For Lexus, press zero to disconnect.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Well, according to sales going forward, BMW is enjoying the greatest success in their history.
    How does that make BMW "yesterday's news?"
    You can't just make an unsupported statement and that means it will happen.
    You may be watching too many Twilight Zone Marathons, boss!
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Why don't you drive the new 760Li (which starts at $118,900) and find out for yourself just like I have driven the LS 430 in order to express some semblance of an educated opinion based on familiarity with the vehicle?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    :) Thanks
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    mean, we don't see them i the USA-but surely Peugeot, Renault, Citroen must market lines of luxury cars-what are they?

    I cant think of any French car that can be considered HELM material? Although I have driven some exciting non-luxury Citroens and Peugots in Europe.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    You are quite welcome!
    Always eager to help a rational thinker! :)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    iam not saying MB, BMW are bad, but lexus is much better at least IMHO

    I am glad you clarified your statement with the initials IMHO.
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    I pretty much know exactly what I see in photos, can parse the jump from 3D to 2D and can judge the technical details involved—size, proportion, dimension, scale etc. What I am saying is, according to what I see in the photos, I know almost exactly what I am going to see and the ambience I am going too feel when I sit in that driver’s seat. I am in no way speculating in this regard. Now, others may need to do it live but trust me, I don’t. 99% of the time I know what I am going to see live. You will rarely if ever hear me say it looked one way in the photos and another way live. For all intent and purpose, I HAVE sat in the front seat of the LS460.

    Wow. We need you to work for the CIA or NSA doing photo analysis - then we could catch Osama. And Jack Bauer needs you to prove he is being framed for the murder of ex-President Palmer [sorry, "24" is on while I'm writing this]. ;)

    At least you admit that you could be wrong 1% of the time. Perhaps this is one of those rare occasions... "Rarely wrong, but never in doubt." :P
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    If the LS430 is close to being as good as an MB S or a BMW 7 series, then why are LS sales so crappy in Japan itself?

    Dewey:
    I don't believe that comparison is particularly valid. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that social status and standing are even more important in Japan than in the states. Perception is also very important. As Lexus has not truly existed as a separate Marque, the equivalent in the states would be something like Chrysler, Ford, or Chevrolet branding.

    In addition, in many countries (particularly the states, and I suspect Japan as well), imports have a certain cachet lacking in domestics. An analogy that comes readily to mind is beer (some insight into my personal life, there). One of my favorite beers is Newcastle Brown Ale. My sister (who has lived in the UK for several years) and her husband (a lifelong Brit) chuckle when they see me drinking one, because it is like drinking Pabst over there. On the flip side, they say that Bud Light is a popular, trendy beer over there. Go figure.

    Edit: If you have the sales numbers of Lexus Japan since September, I'm guessing most here would like to see them.
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    Just saw this:
    European sales

    I thought some might be interested.
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    I found some numbers for MB, BMW, and Toyota (the Lexus equivalents) from an article one year ago (it doesn't give the specific year, only an average).

    Japan Luxo Sales

    In short, MB sell 45k, BMW 35K, and "Lexus" 50K. Interesting to note that 10% of MB sales are S and SL, and 7% of BMW are 7s--much higher than European ratios.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    If it was 7 years ago I would give a 'no' to all three brands. Lincoln and Chrysler still are outside the corral.

    Cadillac seems to be serious about making excellent cars after spending much of the 1980s/1990 in the wilderness.

    The new XLR, DTS, STS and CTS Cadillacs compare well with models from the other brands discussed here. Solid car sales increases over the last 5-6 years indicate these cars are well received. Car sales were up again in 2006 by 13.4%.

    The Escalade is now a force to be reckoned with. The new 07 model has moved way up the scale.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    MB just completed their 12th consecutive year of increased sales in the USA. BMW has a stellar track record too.

    The success of Lexus doesn't mean BMW/MB are out of the picture.

    I will grant that Jaguar's future is cloudy. Audi will continue to be eclipsed by reliability issues and the high visiblity of the BMW/MB brands.
  • lexusilexusi Member Posts: 65
    Intersting that someone here said that lexus in japan (formely toyota) is not selling as good as germans??! I want to ask, where do europhiles stand their opinions on?! no numbers, figures? how can you say something without support!! Glad to know that toyota sold more than BMW and MB, but whats more intersting that they are aiming at 100K in the next years, good luck germans, the only places germans are selling is in europe, and they are doing that becoz alot of ppl need taxis there!!

    Lexusi
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    MB just completed their 12th consecutive year of increased sales in the USA. BMW has a stellar track record too. The success of Lexus doesn't mean BMW/MB are out of the picture.

    No they're not out of the picture, nor do I expect that to happen, however Lexus has and imho will continue to gain market share. Some others were asking about "where Lexus' share has come from" and I couldn't find 1990 data, but autochannel has press releases going back more than 10 years:

    10 year growth:

    BMW 1995 93,309...2005 266,200 up 185%
    MB 1995 76,752...2005 224,421 up 192%
    Lexus 1995 79,334...2005 302,895 up 282%

    5 year growth:

    BMW 2000 189,423...2005 266,200 up 41%
    MB 2000 205,614...2005 224,421 up 9%
    Lexus 2000 206,037...2005 302,895 up 47%

    MB's 5 year numbers are somewhat galling, because 9% growth in 5 years is actally slower-growing than the US economy. Just another sign that MB reliability issues have taken a toll.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Thanks for that info. Where on the autochannel site did you find that info? I couldn't find it anywhere on that site.

    Thanks.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Gary… my 1% claim could be a little optimistic. If school records are any indication, perhaps I am wrong about 7% of the time. However if we go by my wife, the number spikes drastically, probably close to 100%. So take it from there.

    ;-)
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Basically you need to go to the news archive (here) and look for the individual press releases. For instance for th 1995 sales I looked at the January 1997 archive...early Jan press releases (Jan 8, 1997 in this case) have 1996 full-year sales but this always includes a reference to 1995 sales.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Thanks for the numbers syswei. Considering the 5-year growth percentages, I think BMW’s 41% is more significant and profound than Lexus’s 47% because Lexus is still establishing itself and still in the process of saturating its niche. I would think there should be more disparity. In any event, it is proof enough that although Lexus is doing just swell* as we all know, they are not conquering the world. Now if someone said Toyota will conquer the world, I would entertain that more seriously.

    *Swell. I think this word could be making a comeback thanks to Alan Shore on Boston Legal.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Well I was surprised that on a 5-year basis BMW grew almost as fast as Lexus. I had a mental impression that BMW has been doing pretty well in the US, but I didn't realize quite how well. However I would disagree that "BMW’s 41% is more significant and profound than Lexus’s 47%" . In my view, Lexus already had more unit sales 5 years ago than BMW, and in luxury sales it is harder imho to post big sales increases from an already large base (largely because some luxury buyers prefer some element of "uniqueness").
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    There is always a challenger ready to take on the established leaders.

    When the market leaders look secure the business barometer swings to 'Prepare for Change'.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Here is a Bloomberg news piece about the Japanese luxury auto market from three weeks ago. The Germans do dominate the Japanese luxury market for good reasons!

    The three automakers(Toyota, Honda and Nissan) want a larger slice of the domestic market for cars costing more than 3.5 million yen ($30,000). DaimlerChrysler AG's Mercedes-Benz, Volkswagen AG's Audi and Bayerische Motoren Werke AG dominate the segment, which accounts for 8 percent of cars sold in Japan. Still, minicars which typically cost less than 1 million yen are the fastest growing part of the market.

    In the first 11 months of this year, BMW's sales in Japan increased 17 percent, Audi's sales climbed 15 percent and those at Mercedes-Benz gained 3.5 percent. Japan's passenger car market as a whole rose 0.6 percent during the same period..

    German Luxury Dominance in Japan and the World
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    The riddle is quite easily solved: Lexus brand simply did not exist in Japan until the last third of 2005. In other words, there has not yet been a full model year history of Lexus in Japan. Of course the German luxury brands dominate the market when Lexus, Infiniti and Acura are all absent; what do you expect? Cadillac or Lincoln domination? The reality is that the four Toyota sedan models (equivalent to IS, GS, LS and SC) outsold all MB and BMW models even when they were marketted as Toyota's! With a separate luxury brand identity, one can only reasonably expect better sales. On top of that, there's also the Toyota Harrier (RX) and whatever they call the equivalent of ES . . . RX and ES account for some 75-80% of Lexus sales in the US. BTW, it's interesting to note that S and 7 series account for only more or less single-digit per centage of their overall sales . . . and the biggest shocker was that cars over $33.6k only account for 8% of car sales in Japan . . . hmm . . . perhaps they have not discovered MBUSA and BMWUSA's creative financing yet: how to reduce the monthly payment to a pittance on a car that has an exhorbitant MSRP.

    Also interesting to note that, Toyota is not folding its top of the line Crown models into Lexus brand in Japan.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    The rapid sales growth at BMW over the past 5yrs came mainly from the SUV's. In 2000, RX300 was already the top selling luxury SUV. . . X5 and X3 did not exist yet.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I think the X5 started in late 99. But I think it is true that the BMW SUV lineup was less "built out" in 2000 than Lexus', given that BMW had only 1 SUV at that point, so their 5-year growth benefited more from an SUV "catch-up" than is the case for Lexus.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Now if someone said Toyota will conquer the world, I would entertain that more seriously.

    Isn't Toyota on the way to becoming world's #1 car maker ?

    I think BMW’s 41% is more significant and profound than Lexus’s 47% because Lexus is still establishing itself and still in the process of saturating its niche.

    To the contrary, an established name like BMW should grow faster than a newbie like Lexus who needs to establish itself. But the reverse was the case, making Lexus' accomplishments even more outstanding. MB grew at ~4000 cars/yr over the last 5 years, BMW at 13,000 car/yr, and Lexus at ~20,000 cars/yr. BMW's trend is great and they obviously are doing real well, despite all the hoopla about the Bangle designs. MB is the real nut to crack. For the history and heritage of the brand, they are falling behind the leaders - Lexus, BMW (in NA) and Audi in Europe. Hopefully Cordes will have the magic wand to turn the ship around...
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    I found this while trying to find which automaker is dominating the Japanese luxo market.

    Interesting sales numbers from Japan

    Unfortunately, they don't break it down by model. Interesting that Toyota is losing (relative) ground, while still selling half of all luxury (please refer to the article's own definition) vehicles. I guess that means that BMW and MB have some conquest sales. I wish it had some numbers for Audi and the U.S. ( :) ) luxury brands.

    The article states that MB, BMW, and VW/Audi dominate the market, then comes right back with conflicting numbers. This probably illustrates what Brightness was saying about how only luxury "brands" are considered on one side of the argument, while vehicle cost is on the other. I don't think we can really say too much about the whole thing until there is a full model year (2007) with all of Lexus-Japan's cars in the lineup (the Celsior/LS is moving to Lexus this summer).
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Thanks for the link.

    10 year car growth:

    BMW 1995: 93,309... 2005: 197,833 up 112%
    MB 1995: 76,752... 2005: 183,169 up 139%
    Lexus 1995: 79,334... 2005: 151,226 up 91%

    It's interesting to see that in the past 10 years, MB and BMW car sales have been increasing at a faster rate than Lexus car sales.

    Lexus kills MB and BMW in SUV sales though. It was smart of them to capitalize on that market.
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    Do you have five year rates for cars alone? That may help determine the shape of the growth curve.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Some people like to count only cars, for reasons I just can't fathom...other than the reason that it makes German brands look better.

    If you were trying to figure out from sales numbers what high-end bicycle company was meeting customer desires better, would you look only at road bikes, and exclude mountain bikes? Would that make any sense?

    If you were trying to figure out from sales numbers what high-end wristwatch company was meeting customer desires better, would you look only at men's watches, and exclude ladies watches? Would that make any sense?

    If SUVs don't matter, and shouldn't count, why does BMW build them? Why does MB?

    Are SUVs less worthy of being counted because they have fewer wheels? No. Less expensive? No. What is the reason for not counting them, then? That Lexus does well with them?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I didnt say BMW is yesterdays news, I said "The BMW" meaning the 7 series. Its aging, and there's just no way it will in a comparison against the S550, or LS460. Other than the styling cues, not a lot has changed since its introduction.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Apparently most automakers dont seem to think that the inherent balance of an I6 is worth the trade-off. It also takes a very well tuned suspension and steering system to notice the difference, I think. If Lexus switched the I6 in the SC and GS for the V6 in the ES, I dont think anybody would've noticed.
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    Personally, I simply like to see both numbers. When I shop for a vehicle, how many vehicles of Brand X are sold versus Brand Y or Z probably won't make one whit of difference. But I would either be shopping for a sedan/coupe or an SUV/CUV/Truck, never both. Maybe it's just me, but I don't consider them the same. From an accountant's or CEO/CFO's perspective, it wouldn't matter.

    One other thing to consider: if gas suddenly goes to $5/gallon, a manufacturer more heavily entrenched in the truck/SUV side of things may suffer more.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    well anyway here are the 5-year numbers, for CARS ONLY, as the germancarfans prefer:

    BMW 2000: 135,983... 2005: 197,833 up 45%
    MB 2000: 152,850... 2005: 183,169 up 20%
    Lexus 2000: 101,441... 2005: 151,226 up 49%

    Any questions?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    well anyway here are the 5-year numbers, for CARS ONLY, as the germancarfans prefer:

    Great stats, shows the Germans are holding their own and growing. And long term stats of 10 years indicates the German marques were superior.

    Thanks for pointing that out.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    You're spinning in a very German way.

    What the 5 year numbers show is that BMW is indeed "holding its own" vs Lexus, in cars. But does 20% unit growth for MB, when BMW and Lexus grew 45% and 49% (in cars), mean MB is "holding its own"? Do you think the MB USA execs are patting themselves on the back for that?

    long term stats of 10 years indicates the German marques were superior.

    The 10 year stats indicate that the Germans outgrew Lexus IN CARS in that timespan. When combined with the 5 year numbers, the 10 year numbers show that the best "car growth" period for BMW and MB, relative to Lexus, was 1995-2000, NOT 2000-2005. In car terms, isn't 1995-2000 kind of "ancient history"?
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    The scary thing for MB is the relative rate of growth.

    Cars only:

    MB: 95-2000=99%, 2000-2005=20%
    BMW: 95-2000=46%, 2000-2005=45%
    Lexus: 95-2000=28%, 2000-2005=49%

    As you can see, you can make the numbers say whatever you want them to say.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Oh really so 10 years is ancient history and 5 years is contemporary modern history. Thanks for providing that distinction.

    This whole 5 years versus 10 years versus 3 years versus annaul versus quarterly versus monthly becomes kind of tedious. What you are doing is called data mining(selectively picking certain periods to support your arguments). The key thing is both MB and BMW are growing quite well whatever period you select!

    Yes I said MB and that was not a typo error. MB is doing fantastic relative to the horrific destruction that was inflicted on the company by the former CEO Juergen Schremp. Your statistics reflects the "Juergen Schremp curse", but now with Zetsche in the helm it will be full throttle ahead for the Benz marque. I cant wait until 2008 when we can discsuss how well MB stats are(oops, in that case I will be doing data mining)
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    If I had checked all 10 years of available data, and then picked the years that made Lexus look best, THAT would have been data mining.

    But I didn't do it that way. I picked 1995 as a starting point because it was the earliest data I could find. (If anyone can find earler data, I'd be interested in seeing it.) And since it was 10 years ago, I picked 2000 as another logical point to look at (duh, because it was 5 years ago, halfway in time). In fact, when I found the 1995 data it was clear to me that using 2005 vs 1996 (instead of 1995) would have made Lexus look FAR better (9 year growth rate rather than 10 year), but I expressly didn't do that. Check the 2005 vs 1996 numbers yourself if you want to see what I mean.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    The scary thing for MB is the relative rate of growth.

    Yes, another way to put it is that they seem to have a second derivative problem. Rate of growth seems to be decelerating.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Can we find any significance between growth rate and price? Looks like growth rate is inversely proportional to price. Is the less expensive brand of cars here more inclined to grow?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Yes, another way to put it is that they seem to have a second derivative problem. Rate of growth seems to be decelerating.

    Growth is growth whether it is accelerating or decelerating. Are you saying what decelerates cannot accelerate in the future? Are you saying MB is doomed? Scary indeed, BOOO !
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    MB is doing fantastic relative to the horrific destruction that was inflicted on the company by the former CEO Juergen Schremp.

    Dewey, what the heck kind of analysis is this? BMW is definitely doing very well, but to say MB is doing "quite well" - let alone "fantastic" - while it is losing ground to BMW and Lexus, is more than just selective "data mining".

    And it's nice to know that all of Mercedes' problems can be traced to just one person. :confuse:

    I don't think even the great and mighty Merc1 can save you in light of this bizarre posting. ;)
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