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back to the story of who is cheaper, do u think that a lexus buyer can not buy a MB or BMW? i bought a lexus not becoz i dont have the money to buy others, becoz i liked the car, and one more important point here, why do MB sells lesser cars for a higher price!! isnt that cheating? why do lexus offers far more options for lesser price, lexus quality is better, engineering is better, options is better, and far more reliable? so whats with the germans?
iam not saying MB, BMW are bad, but lexus is much better at least IMHO, and back to the same thing, ppl are different, that why both lexus, MB are selling good, not becoz lexus sells cheaper cars, hmm what about cadillac or infiniti both have lesser prices? do they sell more?? NO, why? becoz Lexus is the BEST in IMHO
Lexusization of the WORLD
Lexusi
In that case let me repeat my question to you: What i6 compares to the current BMW i6 engines? And please dont give me a history course about the outdated IS300 engines. The current BMW i6 is very unique! I just wanted to inform you, that's all.
Thanks for letting us know. Unfortunately, this is NOT a sport sedan forum, so what do we make of your past & present contributions ???
This forum is about viewpoints on HELMs and has nothing to do with my motives and intentions for being here. As a LPS fan I am here for a logical reason but I dont have to disclose my reasons to you or anyone.(Hint: auto buying decisions also involve spouses).
Yeah that is one disadvantage. But you forgot to mention the advantages of i6 engines. I6 engies are more effient and smoother than v6s. That counts for something, dont you think?
If the LS430 is close to being as good as an MB S or a BMW 7 series, then why are LS sales so crappy in Japan itself? Could it be because the Japanese are not crazy about LS cars that resembles the ideal concept of what a 21st Buick should be like! Is it not that the LS is a soft American definition of what a luxury car should be? Unfortunately the LS does not fulfill the worldwide definition of what a luxury car should be! The MB S and BMW 7 series does fulfill that defintion bang on!!
I wonder what they meant by that?
Perhaps, that they aren't interested in vehicles that make them bored and comatose?
Then:
For Mercedes, press one
For BMW, press two
For Lexus, press zero to disconnect.
How does that make BMW "yesterday's news?"
You can't just make an unsupported statement and that means it will happen.
You may be watching too many Twilight Zone Marathons, boss!
I cant think of any French car that can be considered HELM material? Although I have driven some exciting non-luxury Citroens and Peugots in Europe.
Always eager to help a rational thinker!
I am glad you clarified your statement with the initials IMHO.
Wow. We need you to work for the CIA or NSA doing photo analysis - then we could catch Osama. And Jack Bauer needs you to prove he is being framed for the murder of ex-President Palmer [sorry, "24" is on while I'm writing this].
At least you admit that you could be wrong 1% of the time. Perhaps this is one of those rare occasions... "Rarely wrong, but never in doubt." :P
Dewey:
I don't believe that comparison is particularly valid. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that social status and standing are even more important in Japan than in the states. Perception is also very important. As Lexus has not truly existed as a separate Marque, the equivalent in the states would be something like Chrysler, Ford, or Chevrolet branding.
In addition, in many countries (particularly the states, and I suspect Japan as well), imports have a certain cachet lacking in domestics. An analogy that comes readily to mind is beer (some insight into my personal life, there). One of my favorite beers is Newcastle Brown Ale. My sister (who has lived in the UK for several years) and her husband (a lifelong Brit) chuckle when they see me drinking one, because it is like drinking Pabst over there. On the flip side, they say that Bud Light is a popular, trendy beer over there. Go figure.
Edit: If you have the sales numbers of Lexus Japan since September, I'm guessing most here would like to see them.
European sales
I thought some might be interested.
Japan Luxo Sales
In short, MB sell 45k, BMW 35K, and "Lexus" 50K. Interesting to note that 10% of MB sales are S and SL, and 7% of BMW are 7s--much higher than European ratios.
Cadillac seems to be serious about making excellent cars after spending much of the 1980s/1990 in the wilderness.
The new XLR, DTS, STS and CTS Cadillacs compare well with models from the other brands discussed here. Solid car sales increases over the last 5-6 years indicate these cars are well received. Car sales were up again in 2006 by 13.4%.
The Escalade is now a force to be reckoned with. The new 07 model has moved way up the scale.
The success of Lexus doesn't mean BMW/MB are out of the picture.
I will grant that Jaguar's future is cloudy. Audi will continue to be eclipsed by reliability issues and the high visiblity of the BMW/MB brands.
Lexusi
No they're not out of the picture, nor do I expect that to happen, however Lexus has and imho will continue to gain market share. Some others were asking about "where Lexus' share has come from" and I couldn't find 1990 data, but autochannel has press releases going back more than 10 years:
10 year growth:
BMW 1995 93,309...2005 266,200 up 185%
MB 1995 76,752...2005 224,421 up 192%
Lexus 1995 79,334...2005 302,895 up 282%
5 year growth:
BMW 2000 189,423...2005 266,200 up 41%
MB 2000 205,614...2005 224,421 up 9%
Lexus 2000 206,037...2005 302,895 up 47%
MB's 5 year numbers are somewhat galling, because 9% growth in 5 years is actally slower-growing than the US economy. Just another sign that MB reliability issues have taken a toll.
Thanks.
;-)
*Swell. I think this word could be making a comeback thanks to Alan Shore on Boston Legal.
When the market leaders look secure the business barometer swings to 'Prepare for Change'.
The three automakers(Toyota, Honda and Nissan) want a larger slice of the domestic market for cars costing more than 3.5 million yen ($30,000). DaimlerChrysler AG's Mercedes-Benz, Volkswagen AG's Audi and Bayerische Motoren Werke AG dominate the segment, which accounts for 8 percent of cars sold in Japan. Still, minicars which typically cost less than 1 million yen are the fastest growing part of the market.
In the first 11 months of this year, BMW's sales in Japan increased 17 percent, Audi's sales climbed 15 percent and those at Mercedes-Benz gained 3.5 percent. Japan's passenger car market as a whole rose 0.6 percent during the same period..
German Luxury Dominance in Japan and the World
Also interesting to note that, Toyota is not folding its top of the line Crown models into Lexus brand in Japan.
Isn't Toyota on the way to becoming world's #1 car maker ?
I think BMW’s 41% is more significant and profound than Lexus’s 47% because Lexus is still establishing itself and still in the process of saturating its niche.
To the contrary, an established name like BMW should grow faster than a newbie like Lexus who needs to establish itself. But the reverse was the case, making Lexus' accomplishments even more outstanding. MB grew at ~4000 cars/yr over the last 5 years, BMW at 13,000 car/yr, and Lexus at ~20,000 cars/yr. BMW's trend is great and they obviously are doing real well, despite all the hoopla about the Bangle designs. MB is the real nut to crack. For the history and heritage of the brand, they are falling behind the leaders - Lexus, BMW (in NA) and Audi in Europe. Hopefully Cordes will have the magic wand to turn the ship around...
Interesting sales numbers from Japan
Unfortunately, they don't break it down by model. Interesting that Toyota is losing (relative) ground, while still selling half of all luxury (please refer to the article's own definition) vehicles. I guess that means that BMW and MB have some conquest sales. I wish it had some numbers for Audi and the U.S. ( ) luxury brands.
The article states that MB, BMW, and VW/Audi dominate the market, then comes right back with conflicting numbers. This probably illustrates what Brightness was saying about how only luxury "brands" are considered on one side of the argument, while vehicle cost is on the other. I don't think we can really say too much about the whole thing until there is a full model year (2007) with all of Lexus-Japan's cars in the lineup (the Celsior/LS is moving to Lexus this summer).
10 year car growth:
BMW 1995: 93,309... 2005: 197,833 up 112%
MB 1995: 76,752... 2005: 183,169 up 139%
Lexus 1995: 79,334... 2005: 151,226 up 91%
It's interesting to see that in the past 10 years, MB and BMW car sales have been increasing at a faster rate than Lexus car sales.
Lexus kills MB and BMW in SUV sales though. It was smart of them to capitalize on that market.
If you were trying to figure out from sales numbers what high-end bicycle company was meeting customer desires better, would you look only at road bikes, and exclude mountain bikes? Would that make any sense?
If you were trying to figure out from sales numbers what high-end wristwatch company was meeting customer desires better, would you look only at men's watches, and exclude ladies watches? Would that make any sense?
If SUVs don't matter, and shouldn't count, why does BMW build them? Why does MB?
Are SUVs less worthy of being counted because they have fewer wheels? No. Less expensive? No. What is the reason for not counting them, then? That Lexus does well with them?
One other thing to consider: if gas suddenly goes to $5/gallon, a manufacturer more heavily entrenched in the truck/SUV side of things may suffer more.
BMW 2000: 135,983... 2005: 197,833 up 45%
MB 2000: 152,850... 2005: 183,169 up 20%
Lexus 2000: 101,441... 2005: 151,226 up 49%
Any questions?
Great stats, shows the Germans are holding their own and growing. And long term stats of 10 years indicates the German marques were superior.
Thanks for pointing that out.
What the 5 year numbers show is that BMW is indeed "holding its own" vs Lexus, in cars. But does 20% unit growth for MB, when BMW and Lexus grew 45% and 49% (in cars), mean MB is "holding its own"? Do you think the MB USA execs are patting themselves on the back for that?
long term stats of 10 years indicates the German marques were superior.
The 10 year stats indicate that the Germans outgrew Lexus IN CARS in that timespan. When combined with the 5 year numbers, the 10 year numbers show that the best "car growth" period for BMW and MB, relative to Lexus, was 1995-2000, NOT 2000-2005. In car terms, isn't 1995-2000 kind of "ancient history"?
Cars only:
MB: 95-2000=99%, 2000-2005=20%
BMW: 95-2000=46%, 2000-2005=45%
Lexus: 95-2000=28%, 2000-2005=49%
As you can see, you can make the numbers say whatever you want them to say.
This whole 5 years versus 10 years versus 3 years versus annaul versus quarterly versus monthly becomes kind of tedious. What you are doing is called data mining(selectively picking certain periods to support your arguments). The key thing is both MB and BMW are growing quite well whatever period you select!
Yes I said MB and that was not a typo error. MB is doing fantastic relative to the horrific destruction that was inflicted on the company by the former CEO Juergen Schremp. Your statistics reflects the "Juergen Schremp curse", but now with Zetsche in the helm it will be full throttle ahead for the Benz marque. I cant wait until 2008 when we can discsuss how well MB stats are(oops, in that case I will be doing data mining)
But I didn't do it that way. I picked 1995 as a starting point because it was the earliest data I could find. (If anyone can find earler data, I'd be interested in seeing it.) And since it was 10 years ago, I picked 2000 as another logical point to look at (duh, because it was 5 years ago, halfway in time). In fact, when I found the 1995 data it was clear to me that using 2005 vs 1996 (instead of 1995) would have made Lexus look FAR better (9 year growth rate rather than 10 year), but I expressly didn't do that. Check the 2005 vs 1996 numbers yourself if you want to see what I mean.
Yes, another way to put it is that they seem to have a second derivative problem. Rate of growth seems to be decelerating.
Growth is growth whether it is accelerating or decelerating. Are you saying what decelerates cannot accelerate in the future? Are you saying MB is doomed? Scary indeed, BOOO !
Dewey, what the heck kind of analysis is this? BMW is definitely doing very well, but to say MB is doing "quite well" - let alone "fantastic" - while it is losing ground to BMW and Lexus, is more than just selective "data mining".
And it's nice to know that all of Mercedes' problems can be traced to just one person. :confuse:
I don't think even the great and mighty Merc1 can save you in light of this bizarre posting.