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Comments
Take a look at the rear of the new Volvo S80 and a '97-'98 Accord - almost identical shapes! However, I don't see photos and claims here that Volvo is copying Honda.
Notice how many cars have the "triangular tail lights" that were such a point of contention a while ago. Acutally, most do, as it makes the trunk lid a convenient shape.
Again - who really cares?
Honda better watch out - Maybe Saab is next to copy them!!!
(If you can't tell, I'm being sarcastic)
I used to think there was a lot of resemblance in the rear between these two cars until I saw them parked side by side about a year ago. The only similarity I see is in the fact that the rear end tapers in as you look from the top down. Oddly my memory of the Accord included the flared sides like the S80 but it really isn't there (there is a bow to the sides but if you open the doors and look at the shape it isn't even close).
The Accord, nor any other car, has sculpted rear lights like the S80 either (and once you consider size these cars really start to diverge). If you see the S80 in a light color where the molding stands out you won't even think about the Accord (I prefer the dark color to hide the molding).
For those who seriously do think there is a lot of resemblance, the S80 is based off of the ECC concept car Volvo showed many years ago (1991 or 1992?) and predates the Accord I believe. If there is any copying it is Honda copying the ECC but again, as much as some Japanese car companies copy, I think the actual resemblances are slight and accidental on the part of Honda. In fact, with further digging, I wouldn't be surprised to find that there are other cars with similar rear designs from a few years back (I would guess small European cars that never make it here).
-rdo
russell.ollie@usa.net
Please don't be so defensive - I am only trying to make the point that this copying issue has no point. The rear of the Accord DOES look a little like the S80 -
- About as much as the LS looks like the MB, or as much as countless other cars look alike. I'm just tired of the constant vituperation against Lexus for unknown reasons.
Enjoy your excellent car!
newwestd, sorry, I did not mean to come off defensive. The point of my long post was that the rear-end design of the Accord and the S80 may resemble each other somewhat because the S80 was based off the Volvo ECC show car which came before this Accord.
Thanks.
-rdo
russell.ollie@usa.net
Western World has so much for the east to learn from. And that's a fact.
Makers need to sell cars. If some fashion item or feature becomes popular, then other makers will adopt the trends. It's just common business sense.
In addition, there are cultural differences in what is considered attractive and desirable in a car. The easiest way to adapt to a new culture is to follow the trends of that culture. Again - common sense.
Is this copying? I think it's called doing business.
Is Toyota/Lexus "doing business"?
I think they're stealing from competitors.
I own neither a Mercedes nor a Lexus.
Neither I write German nor Japanese. English only.
When I walk into a shop, witness someone stealing, naturally, I'll scream "Hey! That person is stealing".
I drive daily on the roads, I see Lexus, naturally, I'm screaming "Hey! Lexus is stealing".
Other people may witness the same but choose to turn their heads the other way, why bother?
Some other people see it but can't believe their eyes.
Still someone thinks that "that person" is just "doing business".
Someone else chooses to buy imitation goods because of lower price, similar looks...
"Culture"?
Let me finish my input to this forum with 2 gold-on-silver designs, please bear with just 2 more pictures that have nothing to do with luxury cars but they have everything to do with people who drive Mercedes and Lexus:
Both are watches that tell time as you can see.
On your left is a Rolex with original gold-on-silver design and looks, MSRP $4275 US.
On your right is a Seiko with that stolen gold-on-silver looks, MSRP $195 US.
The truth:
Rolex=Mercedes
Seiko=Lexus
It's the "culture" thing that's going on overthere.
...
Someone wrote earlier about our earth, moon, and sun. I want to add to his/her remarks:
"If you live on the moon then you see the earth orbiting the moon".
Analogously,
"Lexus' owners would disagree that Lexus steals Mercedes' styling".
Personally, I would not buy a Seiko when knowing that Seiko stole the looks of Rolex, nor I would step into a Lexus knowing that Lexus imitated Mercedes' looks because I would not feel good driving a Lexus.
I would feel like driving a stolen design.
Good-bye
Who is this? And who can they be copying or "stealing from"?
Is this Evil Lexus copying M-B? No, wait it's Evil Cadillac copying Lexus, or are they also stealing from M-B? OR maybe it's just car makers adopting the latest trend in auto styling!
Also - there are a lot of European watch makers that use the same gold-on-silver design. Who "stole" it first? Further - the people that will buy the Rolex at $4275 and the people that buy the Seiko at $195 are not the same crowd.
Conundrum, unless you are driving a Hupmobile and wearing hand-made clothes you own and use something that has design aspects shared with other products. Give it a rest!
By the way conundrum, your simile is flawed. The Seiko watch is not an "imitation Rolex" , an imitation Rolex sold in alleyways is an imitation.
I do hope that this is the end of this unwarranted harangue against Lexus.
I don't drive a Lexus or MB...yet. But try this on as an analogy:
If Sprint and MCI each let my phone work correctly, I'll pick the one that's cheaper and more reliable. They both "stole" from AT&T. I don't care.
I think I'll visit the Lexus dealer soon.
The Mitsubishi Galant and the BMW 3 Series.
Anyone else notice this?
The mitsu galant rear end and BMW 3-series rear end.
Acura TL and Honda Accord
Lincoln LS and Mitsu Diamante and BMWs.
Who cares?
They age the best. A well maintained two year old Mercedes feels like a new Mercedes that feels like a well maintained Mercedes with 200,000 miles on it. There structures are the best in the world and have always been but its not just the over-built unibody. Its the seat frames and transmisions and door handles and door movement and heft of controls. It breaks you fix it and you have a new car again. Lexus dont do that. BMW's dont do that. The automotive world will copy Mercedes so that there cars will have that shift gate or door handles or whatever Mercedes have worth copying. The copiers are getting closer and closer.
Mercedes maintain thier desirablility. Old 4 door Mercedes with few exceptions are classy. Old 2 doors are more likely to classics than unpresentable as time goes on. They have the best mass production car stylist in the world. That's why they are slavishly imitated. By America and Japan. If you read up on the machine Mercedes has in place to get it stylist and engineers you'll know why they are trend setters.
For the short run they always shake out at or near the top of the total cost heap for luxury cars (check consumer guide/report).
Lexus are great cars. I think that they are priced appropriately in the US. You get a pseudo Mercedes for 10-15% less than the price of a real one. They actually do most of things as well or better than a Mercedes. It is not a stretch to call a Lexus a pseudo Benz. They copy Mercedes within an inch of copyright infringement with every succeeding model. I actually thought the new LS430 was originally looking until I saw them side by side in this discussion group.
Mercedes are modern classics. I have had two BMW's. I could see buying a 3 series but the 5's and 7's are garbage. My 98 BMW 528i always had mechanical problems and felt relatively cheap after a few months.
If you really like cars or going to keep your car for a while get a Benz.
If you are not really a car person chances are you are not going to appreciate Mercedes qualities enough to pay extra for them unless you're going to keep your car for a while.
BMW's are fun to drive but you pay for that fun with poor reliability and all around poor quality.
M
"the being of being is being." In the case
of Lexus quality is the quality of quality.
I work at a dealer than handles pre-owned highline/exotic cars.
Right now I am driving a 92 500SL with almost 93K on the clock.
It feels like I am driving a new one.
I recently drove a 100K mile SC400.. And I have to agree with Jaw7, as much as I love my Jaguar that I own.. nothing "feels" like a Mercedes.
Bill
Can you explain that last comment? (I drove a SC400, and even though I like my Jag, nothing feels like a Mercedes.)
M
M
The plastic rear window has nothing to do with the driving feel of the SL. It is a very nice driving car, except for somewhat numb steering. But for a 4000+lb. roadster it handles very well and has great brakes and strong acceleration.
The MB SL500s interior, though, is not expensively detailed. Except for the leather being higher grade, the interior looks basically like a scaled down version of the old S-class interior. Overall the material of the interior and design is very similar to that of even a E-class MB(last gen.). The Audi TT has a expensively detailed interior as does the Jaguar XK8.
M
My impression was that it was much higher quality than an E (which it should be). The solidity, the power, and if I can say, the style of it make me unhappy that such a car as this will not be made much longer. You're going to hate me for saying this but I saw an S Class today and it's tiny!
It's probably very large but in person to me it seems small and insubstantial compared to the previous generation.
M
As a further note I'd prefer a telescoping steering wheel since my legs must be longer (arms shorter?) than the prototype driver.
Any kind suggestions?
even surpassed the old
SL(92) model was stated
structure stiffness,
you won't find a 92
corvette that would be
safer or be in as good
a shape as the SL. If I
had a choice of which
to be in during a wreck
or own, or sale after
owning it would be the
SL. I believe when the
Aurora came out, they
said it was as stiff as
an E class, I don't
recall which year they
meant, but they also
said the materials
attached to didn't.
Originally, when the Aurora came out in the early 90s it met the structural standard set forth by the 1986-1995 Mercedes-Benz E-class, at 25MHZ.
I remember also, one or two magazines pointed out that even though on paper the Aurora might be as solid, in person the car did not drive as solid as a E-class nor did the Aurora feel like it was carved out of one piece of metal like the E-class felt.
I too would much rather be in a accident in a SL over a Corvette.
Anyone on this board drive a MW 7 series or a new Merc S class in Arizona, Texas, or Florida?
Joe
Even the Olds reps were embarrassed when people didn't want to "turn-in" the S320 and LS400 at the end of the drive, while the 3 Auroras on hand sat quiet and locked...long forgotten.
M
Can anyone comment on what price they paid for a BMW7?
My local dealer in Denver is offering a no haggle price of $2k off the 7s.
I checked carorder.com and their price is about $3.5k off for the options I want on a 740iA that include the sport package, rear sun shade, and rear side airbag. MSRP is $68560. Carorder has it for $64890. Local dealer has same car less the rear shade and rear side airbag for $65930 with MSRP of $67970.
I checked the BMWUSA site and read about the special prices they had for european delivery. For the 740i, the price is about $4300 off MSRP. At this price, it would be the best price I've seen, better than even carorder.com! Has anyone done this? Is it worth the trip if you hadn't plan to travel to Germany otherwise? What are the final charges for shipping and handling?
Final question: what is the best color for a 740i with the sport package? I know color is a personal choice but I would like to know why you like the color that you choose. I was thinking of choosing a bright firey red. "Imola Red" would be my first choice. This color is only available on the 740i with sport package. I was concern however that the red color will emphasize too much on sport and not enough on the luxury side of the 740i. Would a white, silver, or black be a better color choice for a luxury sport car?
Thanks for any input.
M
If I had a few hundred thousand dollars to throw around, I'd prefer a more individually tailored and styled Bentley or Rolls-Royce over a bland, mass-produced and common-as-apples "Kraut Wagon" like a Mercedes-Benz. And yes, I'm well aware of the fact that Bayerische Motoren Werke and Volkswagen purchased RR & Bentley from Vickers. IMHO, Crewe still builds cars that will always be leaps and bounds above anything the three-pointed star can churn out in terms of sheer majesty, elegance, and sophistication.
Moderator: Before you delete this post for the "Kraut" remark, take into account the fact that I'm of Austrian descent. Thanks. ;o)
M
I understand and respect the fact that we both have differing opinions, Merc. I don't expect to "convert" you, just as you will never "convert" me. *Smirks* I'm sure we each have rational reasons for thinking the way we do.
I sincerely think that Rolls-Royce and Bentley top Mercedes-Benz by a substantial margin. The difference is in the craftsmanship, the quality of the materials, and the build quality. Rolls-Royces and Bentleys are quite literally designer items. You don't go to a dealership and just buy one like you do in the case of a Mercedes-Benz; you commission them.
The "technological" argument is rather moot, IMHO. Arguing that Crewe cars are "decades behind" in technological sophistication is like arguing about the obsolescence of the front-engine, rear wheel drive layout or the internal combustion engine (two things which every Mercedes-Benz has). Just because something may be "outdated" in accordance with modern standards does not necessarily mean it's inferior. Quite the contrary, the "obsolete technology" in Crewe cars is time-proven and just as good if not better than the "superior technology" in a Mercedes-Benz.
You also seem to forget that the recent investments by Bayerische Motoren Werke and Volkswagen have contributed greatly to the "modernization" of Rolls-Royce and Bentley motorcars. I'm sorry, Merc, but I'm afraid we'll have to differ on this. In my honest opinion, I think the Mercedes-Benz "superior technology" you speak of consists of nothing more than gimmicks and "toys" (like the chromed wands which extend from the rear of the car) to make an affluent buyer feel "special." They are trivial "extras" which experienced drivers will never need or have a use for in their lifetime. Rolls-Royces and Bentleys have individuality, and endear to their owners in ways German cars couldn't match on their best day.
Also, making a car more "idiot proof" only increases the risks of expensive repairs when that "superior technology" fails, and in a way fosters irresponsible driving. Simply put, if we absolutely need technical innovations like Parktronic and that cruise control that slows the car down when you approach another car too quickly, we really shouldn't be on the road.
So if I had $300,000 lying around, I'd go with a more individual Rolls-Royce Corniche convertible over a bland and ho-hum (in my opinion) SL600, or a Park Ward over an S600. To me, Mercedes-Benzes, BMWs, and Lexii are as common as apples and, as the Edmund's staff puts it, clutter the highways like salmon travelling upstream to spawn.
Anyhow, I think I've said enough. Once again, this will be my last post, and let's not allow our differences in opinion make us mortal enemies. ;o)
You also said that some of Mercedes' technical innovations are just "gimmicks". Hmmm, an electronic stability program for a rear-drive hi-performance car is indeed a revelation in bad conditions, something that I don't recall any Rolls and Bentley models having. Side airbags and Xenon lights gimmicks, yeah right. Xenon lights have changed many peoples perspective of night driving, because they are now comfortable doing so because of the level of vision these type of lights provide. Parktronic, something that Bentley does have, so if it's a so-called "gimmick" then Bentley is guilty too. Any big car owner will tell you that any parking assistance system is helpful, but not a must-have. That is the point of a luxury car...convenience. About VW and BMW sharing Rolls and Bentley. If those British brands were so good, they would not have needed a savior from.....Germany. Their cars would be 25 years behind without their help. My point is that while Bentley and Rolls are fabulous cars, they aren't the all around best. The best in my opinion are from Germany, ho hum and all.
However, I were filthy rich I would have several Bentleys too. I like them both, but Mercedes is just my #1. Lastly, don't group Mercedes and BMW with even more pedestrian brands like Lexus.
M