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The reason why some Germancarfan asked for just the 5-year car numbers was because some Lexicon said that the reason BMW has increased its sales over the last 5 years was because they added SUVs.
When you're talking about total units sold, you can't say you must include SUVs, then turn around and discredit BMW's growth because they introduced SUVs. How hypocritical... You can't have your cake and eat it, too.
When you say equivalent to Lexus IS did you include the Toyota Corolla? Where did you get your figures from? Bloomberg was quite concise in defining luxury as being over 3.5 million yen?
Also where did you see that ad with the 100K $ discount for the Maybach? I find it kind of ludicrous that Maybach would sell their cars so publicly at such a huge discounts like a baker who sells stale bagels at a discount. Talk about snob appeal!
Now we're comparing Corollas and Camrys to luxury cars? Huh?
No, I'm not an MB doom and gloom theorist. But I do think they have failed in recent years (relative to their arch-competitors in the US) to "deliver the goods" in terms of meeting customer desires. I actually think the RELATIVE growth rates for them are apt to improve, because I actually do think they have made SOME and will continue to make SOME progress on the reliability front.
As far as "Growth is growth whether it is accelerating or decelerating"...I thought you were in the securities business? Would you rather have own a company that was growing at a 15% cagr in the past, but more recently is down to 4%, or would you rather have a company that was growing at a 5% cagr in the past, and is now up to 8%. Is a 8% grower better than a 4% grower? Is acceleration not prefered over deceleration?
When you use the words scary I have difficulty associating those words with any kind of growth. Even in the investment business I associate the words scary with failure and negative growth. No, MB is not in a scary situation.
You had already posted the overall numbers, so no reason to post them again. I wanted to see car information because I'm interested in industry trends in that segment, and posted it for those that care. Just because the numbers favor one brand over another, don't assume that there is a hidden agenda. If anything, to the extent that I have a bias, it is against German brands.
So... is it forbidden to post trends about cars? Didn't know that it was the law of the land that you can only post overall sales, and not breakdowns.
I started posting total vehicle numbers, and still maintain that that is the most rational way to look at things. Yet when the German side responds by talking about car-only numbers, I'm not allowed to talk the same way without being called hypocritical?
So, germancarfans, every time you say we ought to focus just on cars, why don't I say that as long as we're being exclusionary, why not focus just on HEL Sedans?
NO. The most rational way of looking at this, imho, is the inclusive way. Total vehicles.
Most rational way of looking at what?
If you're interested in the relative performance of brands, you look at overall numbers.
If you're interested in the relative performance of cars, you look at car numbers.
If you're interested in the relative performance of SUVs, you look at SUV numbers.
If you're interested in the relative performance of high end cars, you look at HEL numbers.
I don't agree with the notion that the focus should ONLY be on cars, but I don't agree with the notion that the focus should ONLY be on overall sales either.
My bad, Docnukem is the culprit!
Reposted Link
Toyota already sells 50,000 units a year of the four luxury Toyota cars it plans to rebrand as Lexus models.
Later, it states:
The carmaker, which produces four in 10 vehicles on Japan's roads, sells the the Lexus IS as the Toyota Altezza at home. The Lexus GS is sold as the Toyota Aristo, the Lexus SC as the Toyota Soarer and the Lexus LS as the Toyota Celsior.
Sorry, no Corolla.
Or is the brand too lacking in prestige to be successful in the HEL segment, no matter how good the car is?
My unstated (sorry) concern was that the growth deceleration was due to reliability concerns. Ask Jaguar, but those tend to take some time to correct (like turning a barge--or, as Hpowders would say, "an LS430").
Altezza, Aristo, Soarer and Celsior were and are Lexus models and are included in the 50K figure below. So let us look at the following numbers:
Lexus = 50,000
BMW 35000 + MB 45000 =80,000
So based on that data where is Brightness getting Lexus sales exceeding both MB and BMW sales?
People spending that kind of cash are looking for luxurious appointments over performance. I have to admit, this is really not where BMW belongs.
OR!
Are the Toyota Altezza, Toyota Aristo, Toyota Soarer and Toyota Celsior... Lexuses?
You know what they say about a rose by any other name. Before any of you Lexicans get bent out of shape, I could care less if I had a Lexus and someone called it a Toyota. You gotta go with it because that's what it is.
When we talk about sales numbers, would you agree that we have moved out of the realm of "what's best for you personally"? That we're really looking at "what has been best historically for the buying public"? At least, that's my interpretation of why sales numbers come up on this board. If merc1 buys a MB at some point, I know its because it is the best FOR HIM, and can't dispute what's best FOR HIM, after all.
So if we are looking at sales numbers to answer the question "who has best served the buying public", it seems to me that it would make sense to look at things on a cars-only basis if the buying public only bought cars.
Even if you think it is "interesting" to look only at cars, for whatever reason, I think the numbers would only really make sense if people never cross-shopped say, a BMW car vs a BMW SUV. I know that's not true from personal experience. When I bought my first Lexus, an RX (which I still own) I also test drove an E, GS, and LS.
Also, the M has a larger interior than the current Q. They need to be careful not to try and make something too bloated (trying to stay on the performance/sporty side of things, yet offer more space than the M)
Toyota has instituted one of the greatest snake oil schemes in business history and shows that you can fool most of the people most of the time.
Wonder what the Toyota executives think about the gullible Americans?
High prices didn't keep MB from substantially outgrowing Lexus and BMW "in cars" in the 1995-2000 period.
Also, in other markets, it seems to me that retailers that are carry higher-priced goods often outgrow more mainstream retailers. Example: Whole Foods.
I do not talk about cars I have never actually driven.
I hope to in the future, and if I find the Audi is an over-rated rip-off, I will deem it the VW A8.
Also keep in mind, if you are happy with the LS, nothing anyone here says to the contrary should really matter.
Like I have also written here before, I hope the new LS improves upon its driveability factors. The luxury aspect, we all know will be a home-run.
I will definitely be checking it out when it hits the showrooms.
If you read what preceeded the "hypocritical" statement, then you would understand what was hypocritical.
I'll say it again:
"The reason why some Germancarfan asked for just the 5-year car numbers was because some Lexicon said that the reason BMW has increased its sales over the last 5 years was just because they started selling SUVs."
And my point: "You can't say you must include SUVs when you're talking about total units sold, then turn around and discredit BMW's growth because they introduced SUVs."
What I wonder about is what the Germans must think about all the pseudo intellectuals in this country fawning over (and paying premium prices for)what they use as common domestic taxi cabs!! Now that's funny!!
The $118,900 760Li too?
I wonder what qualifications make one a "pseudo-intellectual?"
I guess, someone who writes English well and disagrees with you.
In that case, count me in! I wear the mantle proudly.
Wow! I have to start getting over to Germany more!
That's like Tiffany's having a three for one sale. That does sound desperate.
MB: 95-2000=99%, 2000-2005=20%
BMW: 95-2000=46%, 2000-2005=45%
Lexus: 95-2000=28%, 2000-2005=49%
MB sales/growth goes from 99% --> 20%
BMW sales/growth goes from 46% --> 45%
Lexus sales/growth goes from 28% --> 49%
OK, we got the stats.... Now comes the spin
German cars are doing fantastic... Take out the cars, and they are far out-growing Lexus... Jurgen was MB's problem, and now that he is out, its full steam ahead for MB sales.... higher prices led to decreased sales for the German brands.... Lower priced Lexus led to increased Lexus sales... and on and on ....
---------
MB sales are primarily from C-class ($30 - 45K)
BMW sales are primarily from 3-series ($30 - $45K)
Lexus sales are primarily from RX/ES ($30 - $45K)
---------
MB has 5 C-class; 4 E-class; 5 S-class; 3 CLK, 2 SL; 3 CL; 2 M; 2 R; 1 G; GL (?): 2005 sales = 224K
BMW has 5 3-series; 4 5-series; 3 7-series; 2 X5; 1 X3; Z3/Z4; 1 6-series, 1 M3; 1 M5: 2005 sales = 266K
Lexus has 2 IS; 2GS; 2 RX; 1 ES, 1 SC, 1 GX, 1 LX, 1 LS: 2005 sales = 302K
---------
Which car company is truly doing the best darn job of all 3 ? Seems kinda obvious, isn't it ?
Now there's a man who knows what he wants, knows what it is and appreciates the benefits of what it is. Good answer.
As far as my car being a taxicab, it's the best darn cab I've ever been in!
Hey, I hear some German cop cars are Porsches. Are we supposed to feel bad about that too?
;-)
The LS430 would never be mistaken for a 3- or 5-series sedan, cars you are most familiar with. What the LS430 is is a world-class luxury sedan far and above a 3/5-series, and as the links to the comparos show, better than many of its German counterparts, including the 7-series. Last I checked, the 7-series is an all-around better car than either a 3-/5-seris. If the only area that you find the LS430 weak IYO is driveability, turns out many more people don't consider this a weakness. Or put another way, many more people prefer the LS driveability to the 7-series driveability. That should tell you something, doesn't it ?
Sounds like a good subject. Maybe I don’t have a clue and perhaps you would be kind enough fill me in. I’d be more than interested to hear. Anything to get away from the repetitious contentiousness in this place. I thought the discussion about long-term sales figures was interesting until it descended into the muck as usual.
To learn about the LS story, take a short trip to your nearest Lexus dealership, venture into the Service lounge area and you'll find a copy of the book sitting around. If you cannot find one, simply ask for it, I am sure someone would provide it to you. Spend 10, 15, 30-min leafing through and you'll be amazed at the Lexus LS story. That car was built so meticulously, and to the highest standard possible. That gave it a huge leg up in its debut. The Germans could not find anything wrong with the car, except to ignore it and assume it would not hurt them any.
I figure you'd better read for yourself than have me regurgitate the story on the HELM board.... Could be so boring, you know...
This comment is rediculous. You're complaining that the Lexus owners are getting annoyed, and then you turn right around and insult our intelligence. Americans are badge and status concious. This is in no way Toyota's fault. Europeans, generally, are not. If they were, the same company that sells commercial trucks, airport shuttles, etc, would not be able to get away with selling the S600 under the same badge. Can you imagine if Mercedes tried to sell a competitior to the Ford E350 shuttle van here? The American Benz owners would go ape. It would absolutely destroy any prestige that having the 3-pointed star on the hood brings. In Europe, nobody cares.
Also, you're forgetting to call Lincoln, Cadillac, Chrysler, Saab, Buick, Acura, Infiniti, and Audi, who do the EXACT same thing as Toyota does with Lexus "snake-oil salesmen".
Could be so boring, you know...
It wouldn’t hurt to give a synopsis of sorts. If someone doesn’t want to read it they can just move on. In my opinion nothing is so boring as repetition around here.
I did not mean to insult anyone's intelligence.
The car is a quality vehicle, whether I like it or not.
I just wonder why Toyota called the LS a Toyota in Japan but felt it was necessary to establish the prestigious Lexus department over here.
Nothing to do with the vehicle. Everything to do with the marketing.
Funny.... But for you Designman, I'd consider it a honor to give you some synopsis... Watch out for it...
Somehow, I don't think that chapter made it to print.
Can we try to talk about the marques as the title says we are here to do? If we can't stop attacking and/or insulting each other, there's not much point in continuing.
What did I miss here? What is it about this book that proves all Germancarfans wrong?
Because the LS is a Lexus despite being a Toyota?
Because a Lexus book in a Lexus dealership will give us the ultimate unblemished truth about the Lexus LS? :confuse: :confuse:
Dont you think if all of Toyota's products were sold at the same place, the people buying Camrys or Highlanders would be very upset at the level of service people buying "Toyota LS430s" were getting that they themselves were not? Do you really think a Toyota dealership is going to come to your house to pick up a Corolla for service?