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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    M1,
    I know I've asked you about the GL before . . . but do you know anything definative about this model coming to our shores with the diesel? I have gotten very mixed messages again lately. Do you know anything absolute from a reliable source regarding this? I'm very interested in that vehicle.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Nothing "definite" yet about at GL-Class diesel, but during an interview during the autoshow Mercedes did state that a GL320 is coming here. I've read this fall or early next year so it is pretty much up in the air. I think it will really depend on how popular the ML320 and R320 CDI models (both definites for this fall) are. The only definite about the GL is that GL450 goes on sale in March/April. What I didn't get about the GL is that there is no mention of a GL550. With Range Rover and Cadillac full size SUVs packing 390-403hp a 382hp GL550 should be a given.

    M
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    That makes sense, all the interest in the extra HP. But, for me, I've shifted my thinking this past year. I truly have. HP is fine as long as it gets decent MPG. The giant ICE doesn't do it for me any more. This is my new preference in a powerplant . . . It's either got to be a smaller V8 ICE, V6 ICE with good torque, hybrid (which theoretically could be coupled with a larger engine), or a diesel. I'm done with the hogs. Done. That's why the GL diesel sounds so good to me. I wonder if others feel the same way as I do about their choice of powerplant?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I wonder if others feel the same way as I do about their choice of powerplant?

    I'm sure some do. That may be the reason for Mercedes introducing the GL with the smaller V8 first. With the diesels they have to wait until clean diesel is in place nationwide.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I think Mercedes is smart to be focusing on a V6 TD engine, rather than something larger. The big V10 Toureg has barely any better mileage than the V8 version, for a massive price increase. Hardly worth it.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I don't know if you've actually driven the current diesel or not, but I drove it recently in an E-Class sedan. I happened to be at the Mercedes dealership chatting with a friend, and it was sitting on the used car lot. The diesels can't be sold new in California. I asked about it, and before you know it, he had me driving it. It was amazing for a diesel. Tons of torque. I'm talking neck-snapping torque. I was also surprised at how quiet it was when driving. It was actually the standing-still idle that was the most noticeable. Probably because that is when there is no road noise, not to infer that the road noise was bad, but at stand-still idle there is just none at all. Very smooth power curve. Very willing and generous power. It really was terrific, but, of course, it was NOT the legendary silky Mercedes gasoline ICE. And how could it be? But it is definately a winner, IMHO. I want one in the GL . . .at least I think I do, and I would love the opportunity to get one. We'll just have to see.
    TagMan
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    I stopped by my Mercedes dealer last night specifically to see the S550. They only have ONE and it's not for sale. I only got a brief view of it because they were moving it to the back. It was black and looked very nice.

    You're correct that the fendor bulges are hardly perceptable in person. In fact, in black, I could see the bulges at all from the distance I was away from it. Beautiful looking car in person, in black.

    On another note, while I was there, I was hit with a proposition. I posted my question on the LPS board, so all you LPS folks in here, hop back over there and give me a hand.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    in another discussion that the publicity photos MB took make the S look much worse than all the pictures we have seen since.

    Glad to hear from others that the car looks good in the metal.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    of several new NASCAR recruits.

    Nissan, Honda and Hyundai are likely to follow Toyota's lead over the next few years.

    You heard it here first.

    :)
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The only recent diesel I've driven was an '05 Audi A4 2.0TDI. I too was surprised about how quiet and civilized the engine was. There's that tell-tale diesel hum from the outside, but when sitting inside the car, you really dont notice it.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I seriously doubt that. Espeically BAR Honda, they are too busy with real racing.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Interesting info:

    German automaker BMW AG reported a 5.2 per cent rise in 2005 net sales to 46.66 billion euros ($57.28 billion US), exceeding analysts' expectations.

    Analysts had been predicting overall sales of 46.3 billion euros ($56.84 billion), and BMW shares rose 2.3 per cent to close at 36.79 euros ($45.21) in Frankfurt trading. The Bavarian automaker said it sold a record 1,327,992 cars in 2005, up 9.9 per cent on the year.

    Sales for the BMW brand were up 10 per cent on the year at 1,126,768 cars, helped by strong demand for the revamped version of the company's 3-series model.

    Sales in BMW's core automotive division rose 7.8 per cent to about 45.86 billion euros ($56.3 billion), while sales in the financial services division rose 14.4 per cent to almost 9.41 billion euros ($11.55 billion). Sales in the motorcycle division rose to 1.22 billion euros ($1.49 billion).

    The company reported spending 9.8 billion euros ($12 billion) on "reconciliations" but did not elaborate.

    Looking ahead, CEO Helmut Panke said the company hoped to build on its successes in 2006.

    "Our aim is to increase sales volume yet again and once again set a new record," he said.

    Analysts expect more news on BMW's outlook for the current fiscal year on March 15, when the company releases its full-year 2005 earnings.


    As indicated, a good portion of the news is attributed to sales of the 3 Series, but certainly not all, and it does paint an overall healthy picture at this point for the automaker. BTW, Porsche also reported good fiscal numbers with sales up 15% and net profits up 13% in the first half of their fiscal year. Always nice to see good news for these German automakers.
    TagMan
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Can you give us a source?
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Can you give us a source?

    Pat, I'd be happy to. This is data exactly as reported in the latest Autospies newsletter. Typically they re-quote the original source, when applicable, so I re-checked their website to see if there was an original source. They showed no additional information beyond their own posting of the BMW data, and they indicated the Porsche data to have been originally from the "Toronto Star".
    TagMan
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    I mean a link to what you copied ... if it's Autospies, that's fine, it's just good to provide a link to where you read what you are quoting.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    These should be the links to the BMW and Porsche sales data I provided earlier:

    BMW info:
    link title

    Porsche info:
    link title

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    In the March issue of C&D there are first drives and/or roadtests of the Audi S8, Maybach 57S, Audi Q7, Jaguar XK, and Cadillac XLR-V. Porsche wins one comparo loses another. The results for each seem to be the reverse of what I'd thought they'd be, then you look at the scoring. Lots of interesting reading.

    M
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    There's been the suggestion on a Lexus forum that there will be absolutely no comparison between the new upcoming Mercedes S 450 and the Lexus LS460. It was argued that only the S 550 can compare. I have disputed that argument and believe that a comparison between the S 450 and the LS460 will ultimately be made, and that it is only natural and inevitable. I think this discussion is also applicable to this forum.
    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I posted this on the 2007 Lexus LS forum, but I am certain that it has relevancy here as well, so here it is:

    barrys – Your concern about the suggestion that Lexus should actually RAISE its prices is reasonable and logical, IMO. I agree with you and DrFill that the Lexus price structure does not need encouragement to rise too quickly, for its own sake, but I do believe that the more extreme opinions expressed here will not influence Lexus's strategic marketing.

    Remember, Toyota/Lexus is among the best in the world at this. Many of the Lexus fans on this forum have a major affection for the automaker, which is clear from some of the posts. This is quite natural for there to be more extreme views like this. The views expressed by many of the German car fans are just as powerful, and those views sometimes in a similar fashion are supportive of the price and/or value of the German cars.

    Let me clarify that I believe that the high-end German car prices are often too lofty and have posted this opinion in the past. I have also posted that the Lexus price strategy of keeping the prices lower than the competition has been essential to their success, and is, in fact, an integral part of their marketing formula.

    I have tremendous respect for companies with brilliant strategies, and I include Toyota/Lexus (Wal-Mart is another) among my most respected. They are not perfect, of course. And my respect for them should not be construed as an endorsement or to infer that I am biased in favor of their products . . . just a respect for their marketing brilliance.

    The price advantage is essential to perceived value. Consider DrFill's opinion that the S450 cannot compare to the LS460. Well . . . buyers and critics alike WILL make the comparisons, and as they do so, many of them will draw the conclusion that DrFill draws, partly due to the price difference as it relates to how much car the buyer perceives to obtain for the $$$. Lexus will continue to stand out as a good value, because it has an historic reputation and foundation based upon reliable value, with good momentum in its wake, and it will be deliberately priced to further the cause. However, there are other factors that affect the sale of an automobile, and many people will choose other marques instead of the Lexus, of course. There are no actual "right or wrong" choices when purchasing an automobile . . . only a spectrum of preferences, criteria, and/or "need-fulfillment" . . . which buyers will perceive as "right" for themselves and/or others.

    Will Lexus boost prices? Beyond factors such as monetary exchange rates and/or political global trade pressures, there have been views expressed that they will and that they should deliberately do so . . . and those suggestions of deliberate price increases and a shrinking price gap/advantage have raised your concern. However, aside from minor fluctuations and tweaking, I think it is clearly more likely that Lexus will stay on their successful path and maintain the integration of perceived price advantage as a key factor in their brilliant and successful marketing strategy. In essence, it is a key component to what defines Lexus, and Toyota/Lexus is not about to tamper with its core perceptual definition.

    TagMan
  • ideleidele Member Posts: 200
    (Also posted on Lexus GS450h forum)
    Last week I was in Osaka. I had the hotel concierge locate a Lexus dealer for me. The closest was three subway stops away. Lexus was introduced in Japan last August. The building was new, of contemporary architecture three stories high. The interior was very elegant and refined. Reception and a showroom on first floor with some offices. The second foor had a lounge and more offices and an additional car display area. The third floor was devoted to service with quite a few car lifts. There is an elevator to transport cars from street level to the service floor. A very impressive facility. I was surprised to learn it was owned by Toyota. They've made a huge investment. The only cars currently sold are the IS250, IS350, GS350, GS450 and SC430. Contrary to a recent post, the LS430 is not available: it's still sold as a Celsior at Toyota dealers. The upcoming LS will be sold at the Lexus stores. The RX400h is also not sold there. The GS450h will arrive in March, the same time as for the USA. A GS430 on display had a beautiful very light blue pearl color (the Japanese designation is 074) not seen in the USA. I suspect we don't get the same color choices. The sales consultant I talked to spoke English. He had an appointment coming up and when I left he pointed to the S class Mercedes that had parked with the client emerging.
    Added comments for this forum:
    I stayed at the Hilton. Just a short distance away adjacent to the Ritz-Carlton hotel is a Cornes store. Cornes is a Japanese dealer in luxury cars with a store in Tokyo which also sells Bentley. The Osaka store is devoted to Ferrari and Maserati. They had a Ferrari 430 and 612 Scaglietti and a Maserati coupe and quattroporte on display. These are all elegant cars. I would have no interest in purchasing one. I am #1 at my Lexus dealer for the upcoming GS450h and would be interested in any upcoming LS hybrid.
  • ideleidele Member Posts: 200
    should be GS430 not GS450
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    Now that Lexus is in Japan, Toyota has some decisions to make about its own high end products.

    What will Toyota do with the Century, Crown and Celsior model lines?

    My guess: they will transfer key components (the V-12 Vvti engine, superb interiors, hand assembly, etc.) to Lexus models and move Toyota down market in Japan.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    The Celsior is the LS and will clearly move on to Lexus when the new LS debuts. Not sure about the others. If they don't fit the image Lexus is establishing they will remain Toyotas. But the announcement in the past was that the Toyota models moving onto Lexus will only do so when the new models role out. Why on earth would anyone who is as established and revered in Japan the way Toyota is, move down market. They will keep building everything they currently build with year-to-year improvements as always. What belongs in Lexus will move onto Lexus. What doesn't - including some high end Toyota's I'm sure - will stay Toyota.
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    Your knowledge of marketing shows...For my two cents--I think Lexus will have a very small increase above their present prices..They`l make more money with the options, and I base this on the volume of cars they can make...They sure don`t want to have a very specialty car and make just a few a month....As you say they are very astute and will market as they have learned....I am afraid they have lerned over the years from the Germans, and have noticed from the last four cars I have purchased from them, that they have gotten more and more attuned to the Germans...Before that (when they first started) they were more American oriented..Tony
  • callmedrfillcallmedrfill Member Posts: 729
    Oh, Tagman, it's you. Well I'll tell them the same thing I'm told you in the LS Forum:

    Sorry for the confusion, but my message and your interpretation of my message are different.

    What I was implying was that the S550 should be more impressive than the Lexus LS, given it's higher price point, past and present.

    Not discounting the S550, not saying it's not a great car, or the new standard, but I am VERY confident Lexus will have the last word on who is the standard around here.

    As far as I know, the only flaws in the current LS are styling and HP, and those have been erased with verve!

    The only question to me is does Lexus want to sell 40-45k units at $65k-90k, or sell 20-25k units at 75-100k. They could sell that many, and outsell the S450/S550, but I don't see them doing that right now.

    The new LS I've seen, can sell on it's merits (and sterling track record) alone, without a major discount to the Germans. It's as good looking, or better, than the 750/S-Class, as powerful, better quality, as many top-flite luxury features, is now as big, offers more gears, and a hybrid.

    A price difference is not an apology from Lexus.

    It's a gift. Thank you, Lexus!

    DrFill
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    Lexans, please don't write off the S quite so quickly. Just consider:

    1. Some folks who have seen the S in person have said that the wheel flares and the butt bulge are not as unattractive as they may have looked in the pics. So even if the LS has removed the basis for the knock on its styling, it doesn't mean that people will flock to it because the S is so much less attractive.

    2. As far as I know, no one - including the reviewers - has even driven the LS yet. What if the drive is basically the same as the current car (very good but perhaps not great)? Meanwhile, the S has received rave reviews for its handling.

    3. What if Mercedes really does fix its reliability issues, and restores its "bullet-proof" reputation? And what if - heaven forbid - Lexus slips up and has some teething problems with its new technology (OK, I have to admit this last one is hard to imagine...).

    My point is that the battle is not yet even joined, and some of you are pronouncing victory. A nice looking, reliable, great handling and prestigious S is nothing to sneer at - if, if, if.

    [I had another word that I wanted to use in the title, but I thought I'd better not.] ;)
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "1. Some folks who have seen the S in person have said that the wheel flares and the butt bulge are not as unattractive as they may have looked in the pics. So even if the LS has removed the basis for the knock on its styling, it doesn't mean that people will flock to it because the S is so much less attractive."

    Gary - saw one today - trust me - the wheel arches are awful and so is the trunk. The car definitely had great potential but was badly overdesigned. Designman has pointed this out a number of times in many posts - cars are being overdesigned and too many car designers today are trying to outdo each other and are simply following each others lead like a bunch of beached whales. The existing S-class is a far more attractive car. No comparison in my book.

    Agree with you that claims of Lexus dominance and MB being finished are way overblown. But the Lexus issues have to be created for there to be a problem and the MB issues have to be solved. Big difference. But the biggest issue of all facing MB in the future is Price. It's overlooked everywhere but my business acumen tells me MB has to accomplish all their fixes and drop prices as well. It all starts with resale - if you can't hold up the resale then the upfront has to fall. You can't keep propping up leases and lease residuals forever. I see a continued slow to modest acceleration of Lexus in the class at the expense of the Germans. They are not running away with the match in a year or two but over 4-5-6 years more and more damage gets done.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    NO ljflx . . . the new S550 IS gorgeous. I saw it up close in traffic last week. TRUST ME . . . it's beautiful. I can't wait to take a closer look!

    And the S-Class' beauty does not add or subtract ANYTHING to or from the new Lexus LS460 which will be judged in its own right. So far the reviews on the S550 are stellar, calling it the new benchmark. When the new Lexus LS is fully reviewed I think it is quite likely that it will also be favorable.

    You may have a hard time with this, but guess what? . . . it is entirely possible that BOTH vehicles will get positive reviews!

    TagMan
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I don't have a hard time with anything. I don't find the car good looking - it's that simple. If you do than I respect your viewpoint. For me the trunk is too busy and the wheel arches ruin what is a great silholuette. In my view it's an overdesigned car and a falloff from the existing car. This has nothing to do with the LS.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I also respect your opinion and am pleased that your view of the S-class has nothing to do with the LS.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Normally I'd say that this is too funny to read a styling critique from anyone who prefers a Lexus when they've had to live without an inkling of "style" or "styling" with their ride of choice for years and years. Too funny. Everyone has their opinion on styling I guess, even those not used to seeing any. ;)

    I didn't expect anything else though. Things have to change when Lexus does something. The complaint about MB/BMW/Audi/Jag making all their cars look alike will never be mentioned again because Lexus has no adopted a styling "theme" across their entire line. So what if the LS460 is a upsized, slab sided, duller version of the IS350.

    M
  • callmedrfillcallmedrfill Member Posts: 729
    The German's "familial" styling are better carried off as by some than by others. Jaguar's XJ and X-Type were too close in styling, as were the 5 and 7-series of the early 90's.

    I've mistaken an A6 for an A8 at the Auto Show this week!

    Having traits of other family cars, in itself, is not a bad thing, but basic things like headlights and greenhouses should be noticably different, IMHO.

    Having the Maybach and S-Class virtually share taillights, or the C-Class and S-Class of a generation ago, is not a good thing, as it says cost-cutting to the trained eye.

    As far as I know, over the last 20 years, the S-Class was only really attractive this past generation. The '92 car was a tour de force, but more Queen Latifah than Queen Elizabeth. :cry: The '90 that had to deal with a new LS, was obviously designed in the early '80's and was well past it's prime. :sick:

    Mercedes sedans aren't paragons of sex appeal, as Mercedes most beautiful cars are coupes (SLK, SL, CL, SLR), so I wouldn't raise my sword too high, Merc, on sedan styling issues. The '92 325 and the '95 740 were better looking than any Mercedes sedan over the last 20 years, including the last S500.

    Having seen 4 new Lexus sedans for release over an 18 month period (new pictures of the next ES are up at the ES forum), I'd say Lexus has stepped up, and their cars now have noticably more style.

    They aren't Lamborginis, but they have nothing to be ashamed of, and can at the least, sit with any Mercedes sedan when it comes to style.

    And I go on record, again, that the current 5-series is the sexiest luxury sedan on the market :shades: , so I am not a total homer, and I maybe just crazy.....

    DrFill
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Having the Maybach and S-Class virtually share taillights, or the C-Class and S-Class of a generation ago, is not a good thing, as it says cost-cutting to the trained eye.

    Yeah this is a good example. Now if this were true, why doesn't it mean the same thing for Lexus? Lexus is doing the same thing with design from model to model. Anyway, the cars you mention don't have the exact same taillights in the way they could be changed out from car to car like you suggest. Totally off there doc.

    Sure Lexus' new designs are better than what they used to be, well except for the still awful looking (side view) GS, but they aren't up to Mercedes' outgoing S or current E-Class yet. Not by a long shot. The CLS flat out stomps holes in anything from Lexus.

    Have you taken a good look the new ES? Nothing more than a collection of LS/IS cues with even more slab siddedness. But I guess you'd only mistake one Audi model for another, but not Lexus because they're still different enough from model to model right? Right.

    A 1995 7-Series better looking than the 2000 S-Class? Ok. In AMG trim the outgoing S had no equals in styling until the current A8 came along.

    The 5-Series I like also, but I wouldn't call it the sexiest sedan on the road. It is edgy, aggressive and mean looking in the BMW tradition with a much better rear than the 7-Series.

    You've got that about the 92 S-Class way, way backwards, it was poorly done 2001 replica LS430 that was past its prime mimicing a car "designed in the 1980's" as you put it.

    M
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    The E60 is the boldest, sexiest, most aggressive looking luxury sedan on the market, IMNSHO.
    The headlamps remind me of the eyes of exotic ancient Egyptian goddesses.
    I've had my 545 now for 6 months and I still remain transfixed gazing at it every morning.

    The "If You've Read This Far" Department:

    On a side note unrelated to your post-how carefully some of us seem to be stroking each others' egos!
    Gives me the creeps!
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Guess my opinion that the current S-class was the best styled in the current group was irrelevant and funny too. What is funny to me is your opinion. Reading thru the lines it's quite clear to me that you know the S took a wrong turn in styling but you keep trying to dress up your wording to make it sound otherwise.

    "The complaint about MB/BMW/Audi/Jag making all their cars look alike will never be mentioned again because Lexus has no adopted a styling "theme" across their entire line"

    Several of us have already said we are not happy about this - what more do you want.

    "So what if the LS460 is a upsized, slab sided, duller version of the IS350."

    Your opinion of course.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "Normally I'd say that this is too funny to read a styling critique from anyone who prefers a Lexus when they've had to live without an inkling of "style" or "styling" with their ride of choice for years and years. Too funny. Everyone has their opinion on styling I guess, even those not used to seeing any."

    As I read this closer I realize how personal an attack this is and how predjudiced your entire view is to a car buying decision. It's downright silly and foolish of you to think so one dimensionally. Do you have any clue of the type of house I live in, furniture that exists in it, clothes I buy, jewely I buy etc etc etc. While we are at it let's be clear that you drive a Japanese car and have yet to lay out a dime on the cars you profess to love so much. That is the most telling thing of all to me. When it was time to write a check - you put your wallet in a completely different place than where your mouth is.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Guess my opinion that the current S-class was the best styled in the current group was irrelevant and funny too. What is funny to me is your opinion. Reading thru the lines it's quite clear to me that you know the S took a wrong turn in styling but you keep trying to dress up your wording to make it sound otherwise.

    You couldn't say anything other than that previous S-Class was the best styled car in the class - anyone sighted could see that. My point was that anyone who even remotely thought any Lexus, especially the LS430 was a good looking car or a car with a "classic look" can't really talk about the new S-Class looking bad or taking a turn for the worse, when Lexus has done far worse - and it was accepted as being a "classic look". How hypocritical is that? My point.

    Lexus fans convincing themselves that a car like the LS430 had a "classic" look when the look was anything but, is "dressing up" the wording. The new S is "ugly" according to you but the LS430 has a "classic look". That isn't biased? Right.

    I'll give you that the new S-Class in base form isn't as good looking as the outgoing model but ugly it ain't and in AMG trim (just like the outgoing model) it is stunning. Thats my opinion.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Sorry you took it so personal, but it was my opinion on the perspective being represented here. But this tired old "you can't talk about a car unless you own it" is just that tired, and irrelevant (on your part). I really couldn't care less what type of house, jewelry or anything else you buy/have. Your point about what I drive is equally silly because I haven't bought a car in years and your point would only be valid if I didn't buy a Mercedes next time I buy a car. Period.

    M
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Merc1-You are not playing the game!

    When dealing with the defensive-impaired, you must stroke gently, like one of the other articulate non -Lexus-loving posters does.

    Anyone with any sense of logic knows that one does not have to own a car to write about it.
    I recall someone here who has taken the ownership prerequisite point of view writing about Maserati, Rolls-Royce and Lamborghini! One of each in his garage?

    A typical defense-mechanism for the insecure.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    merc1 said:
    I really couldn't care less what type of house, jewelry or anything else you buy/have

    TRUE!
    ljflx - All the money in the world won't make your opinion any more credible than anyone else's. It just might get some more fanfare, but that's it. If you've really made a TRUE success of yourself, than you should already have learned that lesson in life. No reason to compromise yourself like that . . . especially since so many of your posts are more balanced and interesting. I often enjoy your "business" perspectives as well as your opinions.

    As for the HELMS . . . sure, the cookie cutter styling is rampant. And, not too long after I had read that the next E-Class was going to be different than the new S-Class . . . last week I saw a spy photo of what is likely to be the new E-Class . . . and guess what? . . . it looks like it has borrowed a LOT from the styling cues of the new S-Class. Here we go again! I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

    BTW, the X-Type Jag is history. One more model year perhaps, but then the ax, thank goodness. It is NOT an XJ! The S-Type DOES have different styling (although I hate it), and there is word of a radically different XJ possibly around 2009. IMO, the XJ has been an historical lesson and icon for gorgeous styling. They should have NEVER made the X-Type to cheapen it.

    Also, IMO, the 5-Series BMW IS truly a beautiful automobile, from a design standpoint and performance standpoint. Few come close. It's a terrific "all-in one".

    The new LS is an improvement, no doubt, and will represent itself well in the marketplace. There is no way that Lexus is the only company guilty of the "cookie-cutter-syndrome". I think the newest styling is somewhat "subdued", but it is now clearly adequate, and I think Lexus styling is "easy on the eye" in a certain sense because of that. It's a safe, and perhaps smart, place to be in the marketplace.

    TagMan
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "All the money in the world won't make your opinion any more credible than anyone else's. It just might get some more fanfare, but that's it. If you've really made a TRUE success of yourself, than you should already have learned that lesson in life. No reason to compromise yourself like that . . . especially since so many of your posts are more balanced and interesting. I often enjoy your "business" perspectives as well as your opinions."

    This has nothing to do with success. The point I was making was that you don't set yourself up as a God on styling, nor do you think someone else can't see great styling because you don't like the car the person chooses to buy. It's absurd. Preference for car styling is personal and is hardly universal. There's a lot more that goes into buying a car like one of these than styling anyway - which makes the point all the more silly.

    Want to see what silly means - All this is happening because I said I didn't like the S styling. If you read back I never said anything bad about the car - and Hpowders fails to see merc1's defensiveness and inability to handle a comment he doesn't like.

    Hpowders - give me a break! Your posts are getting worse and worse.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The point I was making was that you don't set yourself up as a God on styling, nor do you think someone else can't see great styling because you don't like the car the person chooses to buy. It's absurd.

    I agree. TOTALLY. I think you could have said it like you just did, and it would have reflected better on YOU, that's all. ;)

    BTW, did I read correctly that Ford is going to pump another 2 billion into Jag?

    Take care,

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Yes, perhaps in an effort to snub Mr. Ghosn's efforts to buy the company, Ford paid another $2 billion. For the money Ford has spent thus far to keep Jag alive, they could've purchased Jaguar 3 times over.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    This just kills me . . . There are some things to truly love about Jaguar . . . but what a stupid mismanaged mess. I wonder if there is any hope.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Well, the space that Ford seems to want Jag to move into now is the Maserati area of $80-100K sports cars and sedans. Its working for Maserati, but the Masers are something special that you just cant get from a Mercedes or Lexus. Jaguar needs a hook like that.
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    Just when I thought we were making progress toward actually communicating with, rather than electronically spitting at, each other, we seem to be slipping back. About 18 days have passed since my plea in #13202.

    And now, to give tagman what amounts to a true backhanded compliment for being "gentle" in his comments....

    I think people need to learn the most basic lesson in electronic communication: don't say in an email or posting something that you wouldn't say if the person were standing in front of you. I respect what tagman has to say not only because of his knowledge, but because he knows how to disagree without being disagreeable. Everyone needs to learn from that, not disparage it.

    At the risk of being too personal, I have to say to a certain southern BMW-loving poster here that your love of humor is evident, but if you want to use insult and hyperbole as your style, how about taking a lesson from Don Rickles, who got away with being obnoxious by applying the same style to EVERYONE, from his best friend to his worst heckler. Continually using that style of humor on only certain people or points of view is not so funny -- and I bet you wouldn't do it so one-sidedly in your personal or business life.

    To me, the best thing about this forum (and the LPS forum as well) is the opportunity to learn about the pros and cons of a lot of different competing cars and their manufacturers. If someone just wants to heckle or insult, then I suggest they go to Clublexus or Germancarfans and post about how the MB or Lexus respectively is far superior to the preferred cars of the other posters there. That would be a better test of your critical skills.

    How about using this forum for expressing strong opinions, not strong insults?
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Agree Gary. But if saying you don't like the styling of a car warrants a personal attack on your tastes back - what is going to happen around here if you say something a lot stronger?
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Excellent post. You expressed my thoughts exactly when you said you thought we were making progress toward actually communicating. I was thinking the same.

    Let's drop all the insults and insinuations going forward. This discussion is too high-class to get mired in mud-throwing.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    ... This discussion is too high-class to get mired in mud-throwing.

    But don't high-class people take mudbaths? :confuse: :P
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Well, the space that Ford seems to want Jag to move into now is the Maserati area of $80-100K sports cars and sedans. Its working for Maserati, but the Masers are something special that you just cant get from a Mercedes or Lexus. Jaguar needs a hook like that.

    Do you think it can work for Jaguar, though? I wonder if there is sufficient marketing research to validate this decision . . . or is this just management's theory and hope, and therefore a very big throw of the dice?
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