Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

High End Luxury Cars

1264265267269270463

Comments

  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I'm sure any M-B dealer would be more than happy to give you a sweetheart deal on last year's car. Why would you want a seven-year-old design though, especially when cars like the A8, and XJ are available, as well as the upcoming Lexus?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    This all has me wondering..Do you think I would be able to get a good deal on the leftover S Classes? Do you think the build quality of the last run would be better than what we've seen in the past?

    Yes and Yes. On MBworld people are easily getting 10K off the remaining 2006 S-Classes. Yes the final production years should be the best. The build quality was improved for the 2003 facelift, so I think you're really asking about reliability. Naturally the final year should be the best.

    M
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Nice classy expensive looking envelope from MB with a bunch of S-class pix and details inside inviting me to take a test drive. Very well done by MB - IMO - as they did it with a bunch of small index card like data points and pix rather than a big clumsy brochure. After looking closely at the pix I think the car looks its' absolute best in a direct side view, particularly in a darker color. I really dislike the wheel arches but in general the car is growing on me and in that pure side view I'm prone to agree with Tagman that it is a a beautiful car. But the angular views from front and back expose the wheel arches too much and - in those views - the car loses some of its lustre - to me at least. Oddly enough I think the LS is the opposite - at least from my perspective - and looks weakest in the direct sideviews and best in the front and rear angular views. I'm looking forward to seeing both cars at the NY auto show and may try to get in and take a test drive of the S before then.

    I do agree with SV that the interior is a bit of a disappointment on the S but I like it better than the old S-class interior.

    SV - I think the old car is one heck of a value right now but it's really going to be blown away by the new car and the effort MB seemsto have put forward with it and the LS will also blow it away. That's a tough call.
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    I think you are giving too much credit to German management and unions. I doubt that they could ramp things up quickly and then turn it down. Flexibility isn't exactly their strength. Speaking of German(ic) management, there was an interesting piece in this mornings Fianacial Times on the flashy guy (Rietzle?) who used to run Ford's PAG. When he left PAG, he went to work for Linde Industrial Gas. Recently Linde purchased BOC Gases and he said: "From now on Linde will no longer be run like a German company."
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Gee, I haven't received ANY marketing info since I turned down their invitation to take that grand tour of the R-Class. Oh heck, I know they'll find me . . . they always do.

    So, you've still got some minor complaints about the wheel arches? I bet they'll grow on you over time. I've already been seeing a number of the new S-Class cars showing up in the community, and I still do think it's a very beautiful car as you so kindly remembered. Seeing it in person more and more, I have to say that I've been getting bugged ever so slightly by the trunk at certain angles. I don't know exactly what it is and I keep thinking that it will go away, but it doesn't go away. It sounds a little odd, I know, but I'll need to spend some serious time staring at the car, I guess, to figure it out. When I do figure it out, I'll let you know. In spite of that "quirk", overall, I have serious respect for the styling. I've been way too busy lately and I also still need to get in and give it a whirl.

    I truly think that the new S-Class has a re-kindled level of "presence" that I haven't seen in a Mercedes sedan in quite some time. It's a welcome back feeling.

    TagMan
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Are you following Idol this year? What's your thoughts? Simon's predjudices are bothering me but I think he identified properly the two girls who are likely to go this week. After that it is going to be super tough as the talent is immense. Mandisa is No. 1 in the ladies to me at this point and i love her name. Catherine Mcphee is real close and Kelly Pickler is the most captivating. Paris Bennett and Lisa Tucker are amazing talents and both being only 16 makes it all the more amazing. I like Ayla as well and can't believe she is only 17. Lisa Tucker looks like she could be Lionel Ritchie's daughter with those looks and that voice.

    I'll give you my thoughts on the guys tomorrow after they go on. But at this point I think the first guy eliminated - Patrick Hall - was more talented than half of the guys left. The Harry Potter look alike from Long Island should have been gone last week.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "Gee, I haven't received ANY marketing info since I turned down their invitation to take that grand tour of the R-Class. Oh heck, I know they'll find me . . . they always do."

    Maybe you need to buy a Lexus first and then they'll come after you aggressively. Seriously - I just got it today - give it a few days.

    Block Island Guy - They likely built the units shipped over a longer than normal period of time given it's the initial shipment.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yes I have. I like Paris and Lisa, but they've got to sing some younger songs. Simon may be rude at times, but he is right on the money IMO. I mean Kinnick and Melissa are leaving Thursday night I bet. Yes Mandisa really brought it tonight. It is a shame, but Kinnick is going home because of one bad performance. Just like Sway got voted off last week, though he was one of the best guys there.

    I'm really shocked in that your take on the show tonight mirrors mine exactly, unlike our take on cars...lol!!!

    Oh, for Simon to say he likes Kelly Pickler better than last year's winner was an astounding remark! Kelly will make it the next 2-3 weeks and possibly to the end based on that statement from him alone, unless she does give a really bad performance between now and then. I don't see that happening though.

    I was so glad when Brenna got voted off last week. Her attitude was terrible. Her and Bobby, the guy that did the Barry Manilow number a few weeks back had no place in Hollywood period!

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    My pics from the Chicago Auto Show. Forgot to link them here a few weeks back.

    M
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    If only the Dakota became a Rampage! I'm a big fan! ;)

    I used to watch the first couple of seasons of AI, but Simon is accurate, but not funny or witty, just cold and snotty. Randy and Paula bring little value with their opinions. Simon is the star of the show, and he's not made for TV. Maybe radio?

    Those are some fly names, doh (Ayla, Mandisa)! Very original, without being pretentious and psychotic.

    DrFill
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Hi All,
    The old S Class has a nicer design. I, for one, could do without all the complicated interface systems that are coming out in these cars. I normally try to buy cars to keep them, as I've done with my 1992 LS400. I really haven't been able to find a car that really tickles my fancy. I'm put off by the new designs from all of these High End companies. They concentrate more on fancy and IMHO pointless gadgets and focus less on design and style.

    The new S Class has a nice presence, but the old one is one of the best looking designs in a long time. This car has a nice sleek upscale presence to it. I'm not looking for a dragster, I think the 250 HP in my 92 LS is more than enough. I'm not looking for Night Vision either..

    My hope is that the last run of these S Classes will resemble the quality Mercedes is legendary for. As it is, the 2006 model has enough gimmicks to make me content after having a LS430.

    Don't get me wrong, the LS430 and upcoming 460 are great cars, but I feel something is missing. Their designs lack a certain flair. I've been primarily a Lexus buyer for the value and reliability side of things. The 92 LS has some of that flair I've been talking about. The car is nearly 20 years old in design, but does not look "Old" at all.

    I think the outgoing S Class will hold up well in that regard, much like the W126 cars do. I nixed buying a S430 last year because of the 12K premium they wanted, but now it looks like I could possibly get one for a more reasonable sum...We'll see what happens. My wife will kill me for even mentioning trading my LS in. It's a 2005 with only 7,000 miles..

    Sam
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    Sam, you're a pretty savvy guy. I agree that the intense electronics are a turnoff.

    Having said that what about a new XJ8? Great design, flawless exeucution, great quality (e.g., JD Powers awards), no electronic overkill, and decent pricing. Sure, it doesn't have the same "presence" as an S Class. So what? Your constituents (employees/patients/clients/customers/vendors)won't think you are out of touch with them.
  • rayngrayng Member Posts: 70
    Of course, but pickings will be slim. Since the '06 s has ceased production, you won't have a lot to choose from. Check inventory online if possible. In l.a., Southbay has their new cars online and you should be able to guess many of the option groups by msrp. If you are able to locate the car of your choice, go to carsdirect or mbworld to get a ballpark price. When I helped my buddy get his s350, we knew that carsdirect usually buys from penske or rusnak at $13k below sticker. You should be able to get at least $500 to $1000 off carsdirect prices. For those in l.a., downtown and penske were more willing to deal than newport, southbay, rusnak, and fletcher jones. Watch out for Southbay. In my experience, they lure you in with low advertised demos then switch you to something pricier. We walked out and bought from Penske.

    Our deal was
    '06 s350
    heating
    trunk
    cd
    lojack
    3 year extended warranty
    tax
    title
    destination
    $64105 otd (always talk #s in otd)

    You should get similar savings from your local dealer.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Small point. Infiniti is not a brand for discussion on the HELM board.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I figure Kevin's High school lit up the phone lines and Paula's got to stop her stupidity over his singing ability and cuteness. He has no voice and he's not cute. She's influencing the vote with all her silly fawning. Gideon has more talent in his right pinky than Kevin has in his whole body. Too bad about Ayla also as she deserved better. Simon seemed very upset that these two were eliminated and he should be. At the same time I can't say that Melissa should have gone as she is quite talented and differences between her and Ayla were small. But you can drive the fleet of all the brands we discuss here between Gideon's talent and Kevin's talent. If Kevin ever won the contest the record label would cancel their contract with Idol. What's really bothering me is that if they did this right and not partitioned out guys and gals once you reach the final 16 we'd probably have 8 gals and 4 guys left in this group of 12.

    BTW what did you think of the Lexus LF-A sports car? I don't remember seeing any comments on it from you.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    The deals are astounding that are being offered on these cars. A close friend of mine just bought a brand new S65 AMG.

    MSRP: $171k
    Price OTD: $132k, with the extended warranty.

    And seems that M-B's resale values are still rock solid. He traded his beloved(he loved this car more than he did his wife) '99 S600(box-body) and got $29k for it, which it was in impecable condition. There are some dealers around here advertising the last of the '06 S350/430/500's for $10-$15k off of invoice.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yeah I couldn't believe that Gideon got the boot before Chicken Little. You're right, it was a total disgrace and shame. I'm betting on either Ace or Mandisa to win it.

    I think the LF-A sports car has the right proportions and stance, but the details needs to changed IMO.

    M
  • rayngrayng Member Posts: 70
    Steep discounts off msrp and high resale values are contradictory. The '06 w220 will depreciate significantly, putting downward pressure on market prices across the entire line. Just check autotrader and ebay to see how mb prices have fallen. Used prices are often as high or higher than new.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Merc and I have stated our opinions in the LF-A forum.

    DrFill
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    I agree with that entirely. The main reason for such a fall-off in resale, particular the last model year, is that everyone wants the next best thing. But you're right, some luxo used cars command about the same as new ones, especially M-B's and BMW's.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    (always talk #s in otd)

    Out-The-Door certainly gets to the bottom line for comparisons when purchasing within the same state, and when trying to make a good purchase deal, in general, which I assume you are referring to. When comparing deals across larger geographic areas that cross state lines, however, the price of the vehicle itself needs to ALSO be mentioned.

    There are MASSIVE differences in taxes and license/registration expenses from state to state. And it's noteworthy and important to expose what a dealer sells the VEHICLE itself for, before the different state governments add their nasty share.

    The reason I mention this is because when discussing vehicle prices on an international forum such as this, unless the price of the vehicle itself is definitively represented, it can be extremely difficult for readers from varying locations to determine from an OTD figure what the vehicle price itself actually is, given those differences in the supplemental gov't fees.

    TagMan
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Milage is the achilles heal of expensive cars. So if a used current model generation lux or sports car commands as much as a new car it has nothing to do with the car and everything to do with its limited production. If there is a new car available and a used car available at the same price and equally equipped then who in their right mind is going to buy the used car? Start producing any limited production cars in volumes and the prices will drop like a rock. The laws of supply, demand and common sense apply everywhere.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Not quite so. Take for instance the ubiquitous mainstream Honda Accord. A new '06 Accord EX-V6 lists for around 27k. There is a used '05 with 8000 miles on it in the newspaper for 26.5k. So it doesn't have to be high level/low volume cars to command the price close to new. The same could be said about the Toyota Camry, Nissan Maxima, Acura TL, and Lexus ES, which all carry extremely high resale values. And the yearly productions for the Maxima, Camry, and Accord are in the 100's of thousands. Yet Chevy sells almost the same Impala's in numbers as Camry's, yet at the end of a 4-year cycle, the Impala is worth less than half of the value of the Camry's.

    And to that, not all luxury cars, even some produced in low numbers, have traditionally good resale values. A Jaguar XJR/XKR is not going to a resale for nowhere near what a M-B S/SL or a BMW 6/7 would have. And Merc produces and sells MORE of each of the aforementioned cars.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Residual values dont have anything to do with production numbers. Its all about a perceived cost of future ownership, combined with "the badge effect".
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Hi Everyone,
    I need your help on this potential Mercedes deal I am making. Basically there is this amazing looking 2004 (Registered 7/2004) S430 4 Matic with 8400 miles on it. It has a clean history and zero paint defects. The dealer wants $59,000 asking. This car is also Starmarked for one year. All scheduled maintenance is included since it is MY 2004.

    They are offering me only $43K for my 2005 LS430 with 7,100 miles on it. The Kelley trade in is $49K. I think they should be offering me at least 1-2K more on trade and some discount on the new car.

    To be fair, I saw a similar S430 with 22K miles (at another dealer) for $57K. So in comparison this is a better value. What sort of deal do you think I should be getting?

    The car is amazing. Merc, I finally understand your enthusiasm for Mercedes. This outgoing S is easy on the eyes and has a great interior to boot. After all these years I finally summoned up the nerve to drive one outside of the parking lot.

    Much to my surprise, it drove similar to my Lexus but I didn't have any of the Airmatic buttons pressed. Will I notice any difference with it turned on? Also I didn't drive it past 40 MPH. The Bose stereo was nice, but I missed the fact that it doesn't have a touchscreen.

    I'm also wondering about reliability. The car has a good history, the previous owner traded it on a new S550. My son has offered to pick up the tab for most of it, as a birthday gift to me. I do feel bad accepting that offer since he just started work as a Management consultant. I feel like he should be buying himself a nice car instead!

    Looking forward to your comments,
    Sam
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    First off, if you are going to do this sell the LS on your own. They're killing you on the purchase/trade difference.

    The car is amazing. Merc, I finally understand your enthusiasm for Mercedes.

    Well, you always said you liked the S. Calm down, there will be PLENTY of bargains now that the new model is here, and you'll do a helluva lot better if you walk in without a car to trade.

    That's a great son you have there. And kudos to the parents who raised him.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "Not quite so. Take for instance the ubiquitous mainstream Honda Accord. A new '06 Accord EX-V6 lists for around 27k. There is a used '05 with 8000 miles on it in the newspaper for 26.5k."

    My uncle is a psychiatrist and the guy that pays $26.5K for a one year old car with 8K miles instead of $500 more for a new one (with a full warranty) with 0 miles will need to see him ASAP.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Aye, what are you gonna be doing Sunday night at 9 PM?

    It's been a long time since fat Tony went running through the snow-covered woods in his Ballys.

    ;-)
  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Member Posts: 169
    before you pull the trigger on a used S430 i would search
    for a brand new one. MB is offering really great discounts on the outgoing S models. you should be able to get at least 10k off of a brand new car. 0 miles newer model year and a longer warranty may justify any added costs. good luck.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    That's a steep hit to take on the LS. I'd try to sell it myself before I let an over-acheiving dealer cut me short.

    The price of that used S430/4Matic is very close to what's being offered on new '06 models, a few grand give or take. As to reliability, it greatly improved through and after the '03 m/y. These models saw the least performance and electrical problems.

    P.S.- Is your son adoptable, as I'd quickly swap with you.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Your uncle will be a very busy Dr. as there are thousands of people who purchase vehicles like this.

    P.S.- If the Honda is certified, then it will carry a better warranty than new, 6yr/100k mile.
  • rayngrayng Member Posts: 70
    People fall in love and buy without checking to see if it's a good deal. Dealers count on ignorance and impulse over reason to make money. Hence you'll have people who pay about the same for new as old. Note that for many classified listings, the advertised price is not always the final price. In fact, there's often much more discounting on a used than on a new car. So that $26.5 accord may be had for thousands less. As always, do your research and buyer beware.

    Most manufacturer dealerships will add extended warranties like the 7 year 100k on new cars so there's often no reason to buy used over new for warranty reasons (with all else being equal).
  • rayngrayng Member Posts: 70
    The navi on the s430 has no touchscreen which makes entering street addresses a pain. Please calm down and think about ergonomics as well.

    Please don't let your son buy you a car. Have him save for his own car and retirement first.

    Also keep both deals separate in your mind. The purchase should be made as a separate deal from the sale your LS. Your LS should also last much longer and have fewer problems than your S430. Have you driven the S500? In socal, the price difference is so small and the acceleration difference so great that I would move up to the 500 if I were you.

    Regarding the purchase, check out carsdirect, autotrader, and other web sites to see if you are clearly getting a good deal.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "Your uncle will be a very busy Dr. as there are thousands of people who purchase vehicles like this."

    Thousands of fools if that is the case. Sorry I don't buy it for a second and an advertised price is hardly a closed deal price. People don't overpay 20% on a car like that and people who are buying that type of car are careful with their money.

    SV - that is one terrible deal. You are overpaying on one car and you are being underpaid on your trade. I've seen $76K S430's advertised at $59,900 brand new in the last two months. If you want one that badly pick it up and sell your car privately for $50-51K. I think you're being impulsive and when people are impulsive they make bad deals.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Designman - I've got it being recorded on my DVR and on my DVD recorder at the same time as I am not getting home till 9:30 or so tomorrow. I've even got the record times extended one hour in case of a braodcast timing problem. The show must be watched tomorrow night as everyone will be talking about it Monday morning and this first episode is a "killer".

    BTW - if Johnny Sack is in the pen the whole show I'm going to miss him. He plays that role letter perfect.
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Hi Everyone,
    Thanks for your comments. I came to the same conclusion regarding the deal. I hate selling my own cars, it's such a hassle. However, there is another Mercedes dealer here who is part of the same chain that owns the Lexus dealer I bought mine from.
    I think it makes more sense to buy a new '06 S430 and trade mine in. Normally this chain of dealers will give you full Kelley trade in, which is around 50K in my case. I'll see what it all comes to. I like the car, but like everyone on this board, I'm going to be smart about it.

    Having said all of that, it's a nice car. The reason I want one is the 4-Matic feature and of course the styling. Owning a Mercedes has been a lifetime ambition, but I've never had the nerve to buy one. It is alot of money especially when compared to the LS430..But it is a nice car, that's for sure. It's one of those things that isn't easily explained. If we were all "rational" people we'd all be driving Toyota Camrys.

    My son wanted to buy me the car as a birthday present. I had no idea he's been saving every penny for the last few months to do it. That would explain why he hasn't bought himself an older XJ8 yet. Like me, my son is a car guy. (Much to his mother's annoyance!)

    I wasn't even thinking of buying a new car. He just told me yesterday about his plans. I don't want him spending all of his money on this car (He's only 23) so I'll likely pitch most of it in, that is if he'll let me!

    Thanks for your comments,
    Sam
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Tagman is correct about otd pricing. Otd should never include tags, title, and licencing fees. It just adds to confusion. Car dealers and sales guys love to confuse you.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Sam, is there anything about your LS that you do not like? Why would you want to get rid of it so soon? I am glad you came to your senses at least partially.

    Your son may be rolling in the dough right now but times change. Tell him to save his money that you already have a great car.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Yes, thousands of fools(as you'd have it), but it happens everyday. You're right, the advertised price is not always the final price, however car dealerships have the knowledge to pull a fast one on a unsuspecting shopper, especially an inexperienced person. There are people who fall in to the illusion that they're actually saving money. Does this make them FOOLS? Hardly, perhaps mis-informed or mis-educated on beating salesmen and dealers at their own games.

    P.S.- The average used car transaction is usually much higher than necessary, so yes, people pay 20% over what they should, in some cases more.
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    The last 10 or so posts are a significant improvement IMHO over the usual Lex vs. MB stuff. The analysis in these posts reminds me of a question I have wanted to ask for a long time. When is the best time to buy a HELM? At the beginning of a model run or at the end?

    Clearly, if you are an "early adopter" buying say a new 2007 S Class will give you the benefit of driving the "new" body style for 6 or so years. As a result the initial depreciation should be less than normal because you will have the new body style. Additionally, and no less important, the psychological deprecation should build more leisurely. In other words, because you are driving the current body style you will tire of it more slowly. (My mother never stopped telling us that her 1941 Plymouth was the only "new" car available for 10 years.)

    On the other hand if you buy a new '06 S Class you'll get a quick 10K off the MSRP but probably will be saddled with higher than normal depreciation because it is an "old" body style. I suspect that just like year-end automotive sales, that these additional discounts don't overcome the higher depreciation.

    Finally, lets not forget that the early adopters bear some risk of initial bugs that will need to be worked out. The '07 buyer is a beta tester.

    So, using the S Class as an example, is the smartest move to buy a heavily discounted '06, a new style '07, or next year a debugged '08?

    (For those of you who may think that this analysis is beneath them, let me encourage you to think in terms of pre-tax dollars and opportunity costs. Saving 10K is akin to a 14k raise on your W2 and if invested in say an emerging market bond fund would have doubled in 12 months.)
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    It's a catch-22. True enough you'll be one the first to enjoy the new model, and being the first does have it's perks. HOWEVER, more than usual, there are problems associated with first m/y cars. This occurance is usually more elevated cars, because for the most part they are laden with more techno-gadgetry than we'll ever use throughout the ownership of the ride.

    Mercedes has pushed the envelope even further by developing new-edge technology, which is always the case when the biggest car to wear the 3-pointed star is redesigned. But as cars advance, they get more reliable. It used to be that Honda/Toyota buyers bought those cars on the sole reason for legendary reliability records. Now you have even Hyundai taking accolades for workmanship and top-notch quality and reliability. This is a sign of our time.

    Is it worth it to buy a car in the first m/y? It lies solely with the expression of the potential buyer. DCX upgraded the factories that make German-built Mercedes, so I'd imagine that it would improve the Mercedes once proven track record for good(if not great) reliability. Most buyers of these high-end cars buy them on mostly impulse, not need. So the new '07 S is definetely expressive enough to further the person impulse.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "When is the best time to buy a HELM? At the beginning of a model run or at the end?"

    How about the middle? I think the best time to buy is on the mid-cycle update. That way you get the benefit of some new stuff, tweaked styling, maybe some extra power, etc. but its not a brand new model that could have significant problems.
  • rayngrayng Member Posts: 70
    OTD means out-the-door. If you prefer to compare prices with just MSRP, Invoice, etc... then do so. But I think buyers of MB in California would benefit from knowing the OTD price from my experiences. We're not publishing manifestos, or car pricing guides. This was my experience. I clearly qualified it by naming dealer, location, and when I bought in addition to what was included in the OUT THE DOOR price. My intention was to our fellow forum users an example of how much MB would discount their 06 S classes. If you are confused, then post your questions. We have many smart and savvy car guys here to help. So Tagman and Houdini1, let's not confuse those who might be confused. I'm sure all of us who read this forum can figure it out for ourselves. :D
  • rayngrayng Member Posts: 70
    IMHO, generally buy mid-cycle for the reasons you stated. However, if you like the outgoing model, buy at the end but don't wait until the very end unless you don't really care about colors or options.

    Buying in the middle will also give you the benefit of getting more engine choices, interior options, and model choices (hybrids). While some HELMS like Lexus and Mercedes discount heavily at the end of the model run, lower volume HELMS like Audi, Porsche, and Bentley generally will not.

    There's a good argument to buy the at the end of the model run in cases where you like the old more than the new (ie the incoming model has ugly fender flares and bad ergonomics. :D ) In 1998, the outgoing air-cooled 911 was snapped up by Porsche-lovers who lampooned the new water-cooled and watered-down model. Of course the tear-drop headlines brought the traditionalists to tears.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    I think most people on this forum are "savvy" enough to know they have to pay their taxes and licensing fees.

    I agree that OTD means out the door. I don't pay my taxes and licensing fees at the dealership. They are paid later at the licensing bureau.

    To be meaningful the OTD price MUST be in relation to the msrp. That way you can tell just how much the car has been discounted. Adding in taxes just confuses the issue. If you are going to include TTL you might as well include insurance costs, personal property tax, and maybe even that first tank of gasoline.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    "In 1998 the outoing air cooled 911 was snapped up by Porsche-lovers who lampooned the new water-cooled..."

    Isn't it amazing how things can change? The current water cooled 911, known internally as the 997, is red hot and its predescessor, the 996, that replaced the air cooled version, has retained a lot of its MSRP. No one has ever looked back on the air cooled units. Fully 50% of Porsche sales are now Cayennes.

    Speaking of retaining MSRP, I haven't done a lot of research, but my impression is that the 911 has the best resale of any HELM. Moreover, the transaction prices are close to list. Who says that Porsche couldn't sell a HELM sedan to aging boomers?
  • grandaddygrandaddy Member Posts: 66
    Got to agree with Tagman and Houdini on the tax issue. No reason to include in OTD price. It's a no brainer.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    So Tagman and Houdini1, let's not confuse those who might be confused. I'm sure all of us who read this forum can figure it out for ourselves.

    Sorry, rayng, I can't let you get away with this one.

    Here's why . . .

    I can guarantee you, it’s in nobody’s best interest (except the car salesman’s) to do backwards mathematics to figure out what the VEHICLE's price actually is. Like I said, the OTD price is a good dealer-to-dealer final comparison when purchasing a vehicle, but unless you know the CAR'S price, you are missing the meal's main course.

    Here's the example:

    I live in California. Like you, I'm savvy enough to know a good deal, but I'm not going to learn every state's different sales tax and license and registration fees. Even within different counties of a state there are different tax rates.

    So, if I tell you that a car is 75,000 OTD in California, and it is also 75,000 OTD in Oregon, Nevada, or Illinois, for example, the price of the VEHICLE itself would be dramatically different!

    When you only quote OTD, you cannot determine the actual car's price without first removing the tax and license and registration fees! You may not think so, but that IS important if you want to compare the ACTUAL VEHICLE's final discounted selling price . . . particularly in different regions of the country!

    Do you know all the tax rates in all 50 states, and all the tax rates in all the counties in each of those 50 states, and all the license and registration fees in all 50 states?

    So, when the taxes and license and registration fees can vary so much from area to area, it just doesn’t make sense to keep the price of the vehicle itself HIDDEN. I, for one, like to know the price of the VEHICLE that different people are paying around the country when we discuss it.

    I appreciated your post and the information you offered, but I hope you are willing to see my point of view on this. OTD is fine, yes, but it helps to disclose the VEHICLE price also. It matters! At least IMHO it does, for the reasons I have offered.

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    How about the middle? I think the best time to buy is on the mid-cycle update. That way you get the benefit of some new stuff, tweaked styling, maybe some extra power, etc. but its not a brand new model that could have significant problems.

    This is exactly what I was going to say, especially with a Mercedes, but I think it applies with any luxury brand who sticks to a 5-7 year production run. Oh how I wish a 2003 S500 Sport or 2003 CL500 Sport were withing my grasp!!

    M
Sign In or Register to comment.