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High End Luxury Cars

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  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I think we don't really know what the pricing will be like on this car. Personally I believe the NYT number of 125k is going to prove way too high.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I'm thinking even $95K puts it in that realm.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    That is my point. In the larger hybrids it is more about power than mpg, so don't expect the LS600h to get 30 mpg in the real world because it just won't. Should have plenty of power though.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Some of you will remember that I recently bought this car to use as a daily driver and to haul my golf buddies around in. So far I like it a lot. In my opinion it feels more like a performance sedan than a helm.

    Just yesterday I drove a 2006 ES 350 on about a 60 mile round trip(loaner car)so I got a good opportunity to compare the two. The ES actually felt like a bigger car. It was quieter and the engine was smoother. The only place I would fault it is in the actual driving experience. You get absolutely no feedback from the steering wheel. It felt completely numb to me. In the Acura you are not just along for the ride but you are a part of it. You can feel the steering and the road. A feel that I much prefer.

    I do not get the numb feeling with my LX 470. Nor have I experienced it in the LS that I have driven many times. It is just in the ES, not only this time but any time I have driven this car.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I believe Lexus has brought down the MPG claim for the LS460 from mid-20s to low-20s. I too wouldn't expect great MPG from the LS600hL.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    So, are you putting your deposit on the $150K Panamera Turbo S or what?

    Firstly, I can't imagine there is any urgency to do anything yet, but I remind myself of a true story about the Boxster when it was first came out. There was a small amount of information leaked out about it many years before it was actually produced, similar to the Panamera situation. I placed a deposit more than three years ahead of production. I was so early in doing so that the dealership folks didn't really even know what I was talking about, which surprised me a little, as I expected them to be up on everything. I was in line for the first Boxster, but as it finally got closer to reality, it was at that point that I started making the real choices in how to equip the vehicle. Allthough ultimately underpowered, it was amazing to have the early edition for awhile. If I move forward with the Panamera, I'm sure that once the real engine and feature choices became real, I would make them. I am still not completely certain about my direction here, and I have to admit that I am also interested in a BluTech S-Class, but there is no real animal as yet. Merc seems to think that a hybrid BluTech may be in the works, and that would be interesting indeed, don't you think?

    For some reason a different bug may be biting at me. . . a nice two-seater. (SL? . . . new upcoming Acura HSC?) So, I either let that bug bite or I get out the "Raid" and put an end to it.

    TagMan
  • psychdocpsychdoc Member Posts: 147
    ...Like driving a four door Ferrari.

    And @ "only" ~$100k, it's really not stratospherically priced.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    You seem to hint that the Germans going to do gasoline hybrids before they do diesel hybrids. Why not go straight to diesel hybrid?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Did you mean ES330? The 350 is brand new, and if Lexus dealers have any, I'm sure they arent handing them out as loaner cars.

    I would agree that the old RL was a more entertaining ride than the old ES (I think only Buicks are more boring) but performance sedan? Not quite.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The Q45's problems are too numerous to count. It looks like Joan Rivers from the front, and the rear is copied from a last gen A6. It handles poorly, its slower than every other RWD competitor, and it has the same awful "minivan" centerstack as the first generation M45. In a stroke of brilliance, they put the cassette player! right in the middle of the dash, while burying the CD changer in the glove box. What's not to love?
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    It looks like Joan Rivers from the front…

    Wow. If you were a client of mine I’d have a REAL hard time picking up perception and preference cues with that one…

    …and the rear is copied from a last gen A6.

    Ditto²

    :confuse:
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    The statement about HP was vague and one has to wonder why. They could have ballparked it and said 430-440 or 430-450. Could it be that they are trying to still get that switch into the car that enables the driver to choose MPG or HP. Maybe 430HP is the lowest possible level. With a car like this you need to think outside the box. Something is going on here and the vagueness indicates that some important decisions on the car are still pending. The car is due in the showrooms next March - so there's no need to make everything crystal clear this early in the game.

    Tagman - put myself on the list for both the LS460L and the the LS600H. My fear is that the L may be in short supply also - similar to the shortage of ultras in 2001.

    Syswei - I'm still thinking AWD is an option in the LS460L but not in the SWB version.

    Drfill - in the internet age press releases this early in the game become free market research tools.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    For some reason a different bug may be biting at me. . . a nice two-seater. (SL? . . . new upcoming Acura HSC?)

    Quite a swing from the SL to the Acura. I’ve got my antenna up for the latter.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    This technology is very convoluted. It’s not easy to give and parse performance specs with hybrids. You have two power sources working at various times (actually three with AWD) and a variety of electronics and transmission devices. When are the electric motors working alone, when are they working with the engine, when is the engine working alone? Plus the characteristics of the electric motors vs engine are extremely different. In the end the empirical data will put them in their place—the split times for acceleration. If the LS hybrid can get into the sub-5 second 0-60 range, perform with that consistency above 0-60, and get considerably better mileage than its ICE counterparts then it will be very successful indeed. Until we see this, I wouldn’t worry about the specs.

    Is the Rx400h a performance/economy success? If so, the LS hybrid will also be a success. I don't know about that price though.

    Then, consider that these vehicles are being designed around the Toyota/Lexus formula. I'm curious to see what the BMW, Mercedes and Porsche engineers come up with when they get their hands on it... and that is happening right now. You know, these are some of the best performance engineers in the world, so don't sell them short, not for a minute. Now that the genie is out of the bottle, we'll see how this develops. I don't think anyone can read those tea leaves accurately right now.
  • benzsterbenzster Member Posts: 152
    Don't misunderstand, benzster. I said "an" ultimate HELM, not "THE" ultimate HELM.
    Sorry for the late post.
    I saw that, but you used the word ultimate, and it made me think ultimate. ;)
    And as far as pulling out the Maybach, as you can see I am no card player.
    I just figured with the extra 40" or so in length and 6.5' wide it might shed some light on the loosely used term of luxury.
    I am impressed with the level of acutrements on the Lexus, but other than the camera to see if you are looking ahead, I see no break thru technology. BTW I would like to know if those pedestrians must be moving to cause braking. The S550 has a similar system but the object must be moving some. Don't try to drive into a wall. Slower auto, no problem.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I am impressed with the level of acutrements on the Lexus, but other than the camera to see if you are looking ahead, I see no break thru technology.

    The LS600hL will have a hybrid system unlike any other to date. Certainly the Prius with its HSD (hybrid synergy drive) has afforded a foundation for this Lexus Hybrid Drive system, but it would appear that there will be unique and advanced differences. So . . . in that respect, I would have to say we will see breakthrough technology. Also the Park Assist will be included. Breakthrough? . . . I'll let you decide. AWD may be different than typical, but breakthrough, don't know yet.

    Obviously the powertrain is the big button here. It will standout as a unique vehicle in that regard.

    Mercedes will certainly have wonderful vehicles to choose from, and the LS600hL will only be available in a limited number anyway, so the potential "damage" to Mercedes will not be staggering and is likely to be more about "image" than in units sold perhaps. I think that Mercedes will do very well with their current plans, IF, IF, IF, they improve reliability and don't delay their upcoming changes.

    TagMan
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    other than the camera to see if you are looking ahead, I see no break thru technology

    Has anyone put a CVT in a large lux sedan before? Might help acceleration and offset some of the "lack" of hp. Plus it is more "luxurious". Some of the german fans were crowing about MB jumping from 5 to 7 speed AT....now Lexus leapfrogs to..."infinity and beyond"!
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Yes, ES330. Just a typo. The old ES that you refer to is actually the current model. The ES350 is not available yet so we do not know how it will drive. I would love to see it be a real rip snorter! Up thru 2001 I really liked the ES300.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    First Ting: Yes, it is! :shades:

    And B, my enthusiasm is only slightly dampened due to the release date, and the lack of depth of the information on the car.

    The smart move may be to "Soft Sell" the car for the next year, but I feel it'll be anti-climactic, and the Kool-Aid might be all gone by NEXT April (OH, but I have a lotta more, at least while my Mets are ruling the majors! :)

    I, personally, would do this soft press briefing in Tokyo later this year, the full disclosure next January in Detroit, and be able to say "Reaching dealerships THIS WEEK!" at the '07 NYIAS.

    Highly probable that the "430+" number is being used as atest balloon, and can be adjusted as needed, since we have a few days still before release. I vote for 450. And EPA of 25/23.

    Toyota definitely has their own way of ruling this here place we call America, and I trust their judgement.

    The car will be a success, because every single sale is one taken from the "competition", so.......

    LJ, Kool-Aid please. Shaken, not stirred! ;)

    DrFill
  • benzsterbenzster Member Posts: 152
    likely to be more about "image" than in units sold perhaps
    Does that mean that it will not be a good value? hehehehe :lemon:
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    Sorry for the cross-post... (Posted in ELLPS, LPS, and HELM) Since the news applies to all of these cars, didn't want to leave anybody out! :P

    BMW Announces New iPod Interface With Expanded Model Availability and Features
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    You know, benzster, it is not beyond the realm of logic to consider that the LS600hL could truly be sophisticated enugh to challenge Lexus's own reliability statistics. After all, can Lexus, or anyone for that matter, have so darn much going on in one car, and still not have any significant service issues? When we consider ultra sophisticated transportation, have we ever thought of these words? . . . "Houston, we have a problem."

    This LS600hL is going to make a major statement to the world about Lexus' capabilities. Even though it won't sell in giant numbers, it WILL represent Lexus in a big way . . . bigger in "image" than in units sold. If it works as planned, and delivers all that performance and does so efficiently without service issues, and at the same time provides so many techno goodies that also work without a hitch, all the while continuing for years as a reliable vehicle . . . if it really does it all and does it well . . . then you've got to admit, it will set a benchmark of sorts. The bar will be raised for sure.

    Otherwise it's . . . "Houston, we have a problem".

    If history is any guide, however, then I think it's conceivable that Lexus reliability might actually pose a challenge to NASA ;)

    :)

    TagMan
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    You are sounding more and more like a true Lexican :):):) When it comes to the LS600hL, there seems to be no greater believer or supporter than you and DrFill.... Strange bedfellows, certainly, but one I'd take in a heart-beat... :)

    Everyone knows Lexus needs a sedan above the LS4XX, so the 600hL is that sedan. But would there be another sedan slotted b/w the LS4xx and the 600hL ? Who knows ? But it begs the question: which other car would that 5L V8 be used in ??? IS, GS, LS, or the new and upcoming JX.... Enquiring minds will like to know.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    An IS500 has been widely speculated. I think the JX is supposed to have a 5.7 liter engine.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Something tells me Lexus will restrict the volume of the 600h to no more than 2k for 2007.

    Although Lexus doesn't really have a history of limiting itself to low sales volumes.

    I guess if they get 2k orders by this time next year, and it roars into the market, like the SC430 did way back in 2001, then they may sell 5-6k! Who knows? :confuse:

    DrFill
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Although Lexus doesn't really have a history of limiting itself to low sales volumes.

    Ehm... Not quite. The 2007 GS450h was limited to 2K production in MY2007. We'll see how it performs in the market.

    I guess if they get 2k orders by this time next year, and it roars into the market, like the SC430 did way back in 2001, then they may sell 5-6k!

    That would be outstanding !! But I doubt that much volume... This car will be a limited production as well. Maybe even a 1K production run. But with a 1-yr head start, Lexus may be trying to gauge the level of interest to determine production run... Cars in this range are in the 1K or less in total annual sales, of course they are priced out of reach of main car buyers at $110K and above. But if Lexus can price the 600hL at or below $100K, they should reach whatever sales target they set.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    This is sheer speculation, but since Lexus seems to want the LS600 to be its "halo" model for the near term, doesn't that suggest relatively high pricing (by Lexus standards) and small volumes?

    $100k?
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    The GS450h just came out.... like.... last week, so I wouldn't say that is an established precedent.

    The hype for the GS450h and this car is no comparison. 1k or 2k could be pre-ordered by this time next year easily.

    As a matter of fact, I'd be surprised if it didn't get 1000 pre-orders by next April! :D

    I'll look up what sales numbers to expect.

    DrFill
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Depends on their longer-term strategy both from a higher-end car over the LS (that has been rumored) and a hybrid strategy standpoint. Somehow I don't get the feeling that Lexus only wants to sell 2K hybrid LS cars a year. But if they make this a halo car than they need to keep volume to about 2500 cars or less.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    True...

    But, a loaded S550 can reach $103K, and it has only a V8 motor. A loaded 750iL can reach $90K also with a V8. Using these as benchmark numbers, a loaded LS460L should be in the $80 - 90K range, IMO. Add in the bigger V8, AWD, hybrid, CVT, slight styling change, a few other gizmos, and you can see $12 - 20K mark-up on the 600hL over the 460L. I will say the 600hL should then be in the low low $100K tops. Still a relative bargain compared to the S600 and 760iL.

    All speculations, of course ;)
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    That was my point in Post #14802.

    In August 2005, BMW had only sold 382 760Li, YTD.

    They sold 46 this January, 54 last January.

    I'll presume Mercedes is selling 100-300% of that, so lets give an S600 1500 sales a year?

    Could a LS600L get 1000 in 8 months of 2007? Maybe.

    I think outselling the 760 should be an initial goal, then we'll reassess.

    With the Hybrid tech, AWD for Northern markets, hype, and substantial value, I'd try to get to 1000 units.

    I wonder what Merc thinks is realistic? :blush:

    DrFill
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Nissan had a fairly large RWD sedan with a CVT tranny that was only sold in Japan. I don't remember the name although I might be able to track it down.

    Well after a little looking I think the model I was thinking was called the Bluebird.

    Here are a couple of articles.

    http://www.nissan-global.com/GCC/Japan/NEWS/19991013_0e.html

    http://www.autointell-news.com/News-2005/March-2005/Mar-2005-1/Mar-02-05-p9.htm
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    No rip snorting for the ES any time soon. While it is a brand new car, its already been in the mags, and you can always read the Edmunds review:

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=109687
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    with a 1-yr head start, Lexus may be trying to gauge the level of interest to determine production run

    Exactly, oac. Bullseye.

    There is good concensus here that production on the LS600hL will be somewhat limited, but also lots of speculation of course.

    Consider that Lexus has had enough history of pre-orders on some of its vehicles to statistically extrapolate just how many pre-orders turn out to be bonafide sales. Assuming good communication with its dealer network, Lexus can make a very reasonable prediction regarding true demand and projected sales after a period of time of pre-orders. Production calculations and projections can then be made with greater assurance and Lexus will ultimately determine with strategic deliberation just how many LS600hL's it should manufacture. Now is that sweet or what? It's an enviable position any business would love to be in.

    :)

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well its going to be hard enough to get a diesel to be 50-state legal so imagine the engineering nightmare of getting that plus a brand new hybrid system to work with that. A daunting task for even Mercedes-Benz. Toyota has spent an untold amount in R&D on hybrids because no one else really had the cash to do it. A diesel-hybrid is at least 5 years off and it will be sold in Europe mainly, IMO. The Germans will do gas hybrids here and diesels over there IMO.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    We'll see what happens, but you don't appear to have recovered yet. :surprise:

    I see you're making predictions about where the sales will come from, yet really the only folks really ogling about it so far are current Lexus folks.

    I don't know what would be realistic as far as sales for a car like the LS600h until they price it. If it under 100K I can't see them limiting it to 2K a year. I'd sell at least 3K or more. Now if really does come in at 125K then 1-2K at best would be the goal. Oac is right about them likely introducing the car so early so they can gauge demand. This car will either soar or flop there won't be much middle ground, IMO.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Some of the german fans were crowing about MB jumping from 5 to 7 speed AT....now Lexus leapfrogs to..."infinity and beyond"!

    I seem to remember more than a few Lexusfans saying that a 7-Speed was pointless, I guess that is no longer the case with Lexus coming out with an 8-speed.

    M
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    The germans and the Japanese and everybody else will take different routes. The Germans are leaders in diesel and they will move towards diesel-hybrids.

    Japanese will improve their diesel know-how and then use their advanced hybrid systems to get a japanese version of diesel hybrids.

    I think all major OEM's will sell both gas-hybrids and diesel-hybrids in all continents. The localization will slowly dissolve into larger global context.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I think you're correct here, I can see a 100K price or maybe a little over that just for image, but not 125K. A 125K price would kill the value aspect for a lot of folks.

    M
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    Who wants to bet with me on pricing. I say it wont exceed $85K base MSRP.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    You're likely right, but a diesel hybrid is going to be a mightly expensive car. I mean Mercedes can sell one at the S-Class level, but at the E-Class level it would be ridiculously priced out of the E's market segment making it pointless IMO. Diesels already cost a little more than their gas counterparts, then adding a hybrid system....$$$$$$$ :surprise:

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Place your bets while the going is good folks!

    A - 80-90K
    B - 90-100K
    C - 100K and beyond

    I vote B.

    M
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    Impossible I say. If Lexus wants to go in 100K plus territory it will have to offer something more than a V8 or V8-hybrid.

    Something which will compete directly no cylinders barred with S600.

    Thats just the nature of the market. A V8 or a hybrid-V8 wont do here.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    That statement is going to set off alarms!

    M
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    I vote A

    and I throw an open challenge to anybody who votes any other than A. You will lose! Thats as assured as the sun rising from the east tomorrow morning.
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    It wont exceed 430 hp. On the other hand I suspect all the benefit of extra power will evaporate if the power to weight ratio is not better than LS 460 L.

    Ask any Ferrari or Porsche engineer and they will tell you that its not power but power to weight ratio that matters.

    Thats why S65 AMG shows very little improvement over S600. Even edmunds admits it.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Thats why S65 AMG shows very little improvement over S600. Even edmunds admits it.

    Nah I think its traction in the case of the Benzes with their superhero torque.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    A timely article on hybrids.

    It really does touch on all the points made here by everyone I think.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Well I'll only speak for myself, but when MB introduced the 7-speed I think I said something like "Yes, I want one, the mileage and acceleration will be slightly better but I think there are diminishing returns...the benefit of going from 6 to 7 is less than that of going from 4 to 5."

    I don't think I exactly trumpeted the 8 speed in the LS460 as being a major revolution, maybe other people did.

    And I hope you'll admit that going to effectively infinite gear ratios as in the CVT of the LS600 is a "bigger" jump from MB's 7-speed than MB's 7-speed was versus its competition at the time of introduction.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I also vote B. My guess is the base version goes in the low 90s and the fully loaded (reclining back seat etc) near 100.
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