High End Luxury Cars

tagman · April 2006

But the wife couldn't take the driving with all the curves and elevation changes so we only went half-way.

Somehow, I'll bet that your driving style had a little something to do with it

One of the very best places on the planet to learn to surf, other than "Cowells" in Santa Cruz, California, is at "The Cove" in Maui. I also know some of the best places to eat there. I'll be there next spring for a couple of weeks.

TagMan

dhamilton · April 2006

the B&O system in the new A8/S8. For 7 grand it outta be bangin my osticles

stevekilburn · April 2006

Just too much gasoline!

I am not surprised, Lexus needs to put performance in LS or they are doomed.

They need to stop undercutting prices and get those increasing recalls of Toyota/lexus under control. It is really starting to worry me, seriously.

GM has now a good chance to keep that title of No.1 for many more years. Well done GM!

stevekilburn · April 2006

Yeah I was taking my in-laws to white mountains the other day all the way from Jersey and they complained how it almost bought their food up on those twists and elevations.

I seriously recommend you not to do that again.

merc1 · April 2006

Did my eyes deceive me or was the top time turned in by a Honda Civic Type R? Is this a front wheel drive car?

Not sure I'll have to look at it again. Yes, all Civics are FWD cars but that is one (hot) version we don't get here.

M

merc1 · April 2006

Aren't many new cars already designed in accordance with the regs?

Not yet, only those that went on sale in 2005 onwards that are totally new vehicles like the S-Class, LS460, S80 etc. etc. It was said that Mercedes rushed the CLS to production in 2004 so it wouldn't have to comply with the new regs. Just watch, from now on every new car that will be sold in Europe will have some type of thick hood or a pop-up system for the hood like the new Jaguar XK.

I personally think that they're addressing the problem in a bass-ackwards manner. They can make a car even softer but if you get hit at the right speed you'll fly up and over it or you'll get trapped under it. I just don't see why they don't address the places where people and cars meet and make those places safer instead of making car companies design cars out of putty.

Yeah the slab sides like on the new Lexus IS, VW Jetta are also the result of side impact regs too both here and Europe. It really takes a good stylist to pull it off and so far very few have been able to do it without the resulting slab-o-side look.

M

merc1 · April 2006

The Sport GT Quattroporte would be a much fairer fight vs the CLS.

True, I've seen the Quattroporte Sport GT called the best handling sedan in the world by a few of the British magazines.

M

garyh1 · April 2006

Does any know what happened to the Bose auto suspension system that was being touted as "the next big thing" a while back? They demonstrated it installed in an LS, which led to speculation that Lexus was going to introduce it.

Also, some time ago we had a Bose car audio engineer posting here, and he made it very clear that the home stereo division was totally separate from the car division (he clearly wanted to separate himself from the admittedly inferior home stereo products). He also confirmed that the car company set the price parameters and then Bose did the best that could be done within that budget.

merc1 · April 2006

BTW, what's the word on the next CLK (yes, K, no typo) AMG that will be released?

The CLK63 is supposed to be here in July/August. What a convertible it will be with 475hp!

Do you post on that site?

No, not on that one just MBWorld.org and Germancarzone.

I like Jaguars also to a degree and it almost seem blasphemous to throw an XJ of any kind around like that.

M

tagman · April 2006

The CLK63 is supposed to be here in July/August. What a convertible it will be with 475hp!

Any news/rumors of a retractable hardtop on the CLK? I, personally think it would be a terrific feature for the line.

TagMan

lexusguy · April 2006

Yeah as I've said, there have been some truly excellent Bose car stereos. I dont automatically dismiss them as junk until I've at least given a shot. I also much prefer the Infiniti M (despite its Bose stereo) to the GS, even though ML is one of the most respected names in audio, and shows that Lexus definitely "knows their stuff".

The cold, ugly truth about Bose home products is spelled out in this review:
http://www.intellexual.net/bose.html

merc1 · April 2006

Any news/rumors of a retractable hardtop on the CLK? I, personally think it would be a terrific feature for the line.

I haven't heard/seen anything about a hardtop CLK, but iI guess there is a chance that the next generation model just may very well be a hardtop considering all the 4-seat hardtop convertibles coming on the market now. That and the fact that the CLK is the only soft-top convertible Benz left.

M

tagman · April 2006

I haven't heard/seen anything about a hardtop CLK, but iI guess there is a chance that the next generation model just may very well be a hardtop considering all the 4-seat hardtop convertibles coming on the market now. That and the fact that the CLK is the only soft-top convertible Benz left.

Well, I thought you might have stumbled across something, the way you seem to pull data out of thin air sometimes, but I would bet large ones that the next round is a retractable hardtop. Is there any data on the next generation CLK? I am not aware of any.

TagMan

tagman · April 2006

I am little surprised that so much of the news of upcoming models and engines from MB is still primarily about increasing POWER. It just seems that there should and would be more news about upcoming diesels and hybrids.

TagMan

merc1 · April 2006

Nothing really on the next-generation CLK just yet. All the info I've post in futures MB models thread is partly gleamed from dedicated MB sites and just knowing how MB operates. Once a new engine appears it will soon be placed into everything in some form or another. Facelifts come anywhere between 3-4 years redesigns for most models in 7...really not that hard to predict what MB will do. SLK appears for the 2005 model year with the new 3.5L V6 then came the ML350, E350, CLK350, C350, R350 in that order. MB has just shown a direct-injection version of the 3.5L V6 that makes 292hp for the European CLS350. I'd say we'll get that engine first in the 2008 C350 and then the normal pattern will follow. I thought I read something about regular gasoline being cleaned up too as in getting rid of sulfur?

Anyway, the same is happening now with the new 5.5L V8, first the S550, now the SL550, then the E550, CLS550 on so on....see how it goes? BMW is pretty much the same way....first 750i, then 650i and then 550i. Now Audi doesn't always adhere to this pattern.

The only thing no one has been able to figure out is why the 2007 ML500 hasn't become the ML450 or ML550 according to a 2007 order sheet that was posted on MBWorld.org.

Next up look for the turbocharged version of the new 6.2L V8 in the SL63, S63 and CL63. Hp numbers you ask? About 570hp and over 600lb-ft of torque. I'm always right about this...lol!

Now the CLK getting 475hp did shock me a little, I had it pegged at 440-460hp, not 475hp! You know what this means right? Come facelift time the SLK55 is history, enter the SLK63. Ditto for the next generation C-Class AMG model.

Well the diesels are official on for 2007 in 45 states for the R320 CDI and ML320 CDI. The only thing not clear yet is whether or not the E320 CDI Bluetec will be certified for all 50 states. I suspect that there is something going on with this process everyday. I think the tanglement centers around how to keep track of whether or not owners are keeping that urea canister filled/changed at the recommended intervals. I think the car itself is ready for sale in all states, but MB and government are likely wrangling over the maintenance schedule and keeping track of it. God forbid a customer drive a diesel for a few days/weeks in between services in Cali that isn't compliant!

I bet GM/DCX/BMW are working overtime to get a hybrid out while the craze is still on, but I doubt you'll see one from any of them before the 2008 model year.

M

tagman · April 2006

I bet GM/DCX/BMW are working overtime to get a hybrid out while the craze is still on, but I doubt you'll see one from any of them before the 2008 model year

Soon, the craze will explode. It's like the alignment of the planets thing . . . the gas prices go up and suddenly Washington pretends to be concerned. Prices ease up a tiny bit for political reasons and to get the monkey off big oil's back. Then, comes the summer gas price increase! All about this time, the hybrid vehicles start to roll into showrooms in even greater numbers. Soon people are ticked off even more about gasoline prices and sure enough, the new model year starts out with even MORE hybrids, and soon thereafter the flagship hybrid LS is released with even more hybrid attention in the news. More advertising dollars. Gasoline goes up and down a bit, but remains relatively high, of course, and another round of hybrid awareness digs its heals into our society. Then there are even MORE hybrid vehicles, and the question is . . . where the ---- is Mercedes Benz during all this? . . . Pushing their shiny new GIANT GL SUV with a nice big juicy V8 under the hood.

Amongst other cool things, of course. Actually, the diesels should do well, IMO.

Truth is, merc, I do love the MB's, but gosh they make it difficult sometimes. They really did suffer with reliability for a while there and I pray that they get it back. And they sometimes just don't seem to be in touch at all with what the market is REALLY about. They could truly kick butt. I mean across the board, not just here and there with a hit.

Heck, I'm tired . . . done for the day.

Later,

TagMan

merc1 · April 2006

Well MB (and all the others except Lexus) were late to hybrid party so it will take a few years from them to change direction so in the meantime they'll push diesels while pondering if Hybrids are really worth it in the U.S. market when the rest of the world seemingly prefers diesels. That is an awful lot of investment on the part of DCX/BMW/GM for what will really be primarily the U.S. market. I still don't think they've committed to it like Toyota is, nobody is except maybe Honda. It looks like Honda may be cutting back production of their Accord Hybrid so they might not be as committed as Toyota in the future.

I think gas prices will have to stay at the current level for a year or better before the luxury SUV party is over and even then it will still be a smaller party going on in the back for those who really don't care about gas prices and have the money to deal with it. Then large SUVs will be more a second vehicle than a daily driver, such a change has likely already happened for those large SUV owners who have a car to drive during times like these.

I've been told that some people actually need large SUVs. Can't stand SUVs in general myself.

Yeah Mercedes has had a rough 4-5 years but I think the worst is over for the most part. The only fly in the buttermilk is the lackluster R-Class, everything else introduced in the last few years has been a hit. The reliability problem will take longer to change in both perception and reality. For what it is worth the S-Class owners on MBWorld haven't experience any problems so far which is a good sign. Last time around with the W220 the problems were immediate and considering the new S has been on sale in Europe since Sept and nothing has cropped up there either this is a small glimmer of progress I think.

M

designman · April 2006

I think the very earliest we'll see hybrid from the Germans is 2010 and that could be wishful thinking. There's too much in the way of engineering, contracting, manufacturing, patents, etc. plus these partnerships could present a lot of momentum that has to be overcome.

There is no craze yet and even if there was, can or will Toyota meet demand?

houdini1 · April 2006

I hope the Germans stay away from hybrids and start shipping us diesels, diesels, diesels. Something they know a thing or three about.

I still rank my 1978 240 D among the best cars I ever had. Rock solid. Could cruise all day at 75 and never break a sweat. Steering wheel was about 2 feet in diameter. I had to give it up when I got a company car. One of the worst cars I ever had the pleasure to drive. A 1980 Olds Cutlass. Shocks went before 20,000 miles. Tires too. I still remember the vibration in the steering wheel right at driving speed. The vibration was there from the first day and never went away.

I have to scratch my head when I see the R class. They already had the Pacifica, which looks better and costs less.

blkhemi · April 2006

The B&O system that is in my W-12 will absolutely cause at the very least temporary hearing lost.

Audi has this informative video that you get if you choose this option. They had a A8 at a lab in Ingolstadt to perform a test on the system: It registered off of the meter chart. $6800k??? Way worth it for a super-high quality system. Heck I spent $23k for the system in my home, so yes, sound is of incredible importance to me.

blkhemi · April 2006

For what's worth, I think that MB knows that this time around, these car's need to put up or shut up. With the new LS on the horizon, the S in the U.S. has to be a much more reliable car than the W220 it replaces. Not only that, but quality has to be taken up a whole notch.

We all know that the LS will be even more flawless in terms of materials and reliablity. But this time around, the company has gotten serious about what MB has absolutely killed them on: PERFORMANCE. With the base 460 coming out of the barn making 380hp, they'll finally give them a run for the crown.

The new W221 intitial quality has reported to be light-years ahead of the old W220, both here and abroad, which is a good sign that all of the money that DCX poured into the factories are paying off. I want to believe that they've worked out all of the quality bugs, but it's to early to call it home run. Let's wait on '08 for a final analysis.

benzster · April 2006

One of the worst cars I ever had the pleasure to drive
Is that the one with the double chevron tail lamps? We had one and it was the worst car ever. I mean ever!

B&O
I had a cool turntable by B&O with linear tracking but never speakers. I have expierienced the system though. Did I not see a McIntosh car reciever once? Maybe the answer is 2 "Voice of the Theater" speakers in the trunk. I think that car and home audio can't be compared. The statement about "levels" of car audio, squashes the across the board "Bose, HK, ML,B&O are great" thought. There is something about being able to pull off the grill and get all the production info. Even the infinity speakers in the T&C van won't match the infinity speakers I put in a 190E. Who really knows what is in there. Face plates and grill badges are cheap :confuse:

They already had the Pacifica, which looks better and costs less.
I always have an issue with this type statement. MBUSA buys cars from DC. MBUSA doesn't sell a Pacifica. If MBUSA wants a minivan to fill the void DC will produce it. The SPRINTER does get a little fuzzy. FedEx bought some from Germany badged as a MB to test. Then Freightliner badged them, and MB sometimes serviced those. Now Dodge carries them badged as Dodge. MB does not service those. BTW they have an awesome camper on a Sprinter chassis.

Back to the HELM subject. I am visiting a friend that drives an Audi with the V12. He keeps a few cars at a small private airport. Can't wait. He said we can cut loose there. First up, 356 Carrera. WooHoo!

benzster · April 2006

I am sorry for the misinformation. Brain fart. As Shultz says "I know nothing!".
The AMG's will do away with the superchargers. A "6.3" will be out. On the hard top issue: In Europe there is an aftermarket lift off top. The question as to the US seeing a Volvo (nice) 3 piece folding top? We do not know. I have always heard price point was the issue on the release.
Again, sorry for any confusion.

lexusguy · April 2006

Subaru had partnered with McIntosh for the previous gen outback. The headunit actually looked like a McIntosh pre-amp (only about 1\4 actual size), it was cool! I dont think they still are, as the new Legacy\Outback stereos make no mention of it anywhere, and if you're packing McIntosh amplification and speakers, thats the kind of name you want to drop, big time.

hpowders · April 2006

Mama's Fish House on the road to Hana is very good.
Spago's in the Four Seasons is pretty good.
My favorite, however, is Nick's Fishmarket in the Fairmont.

Like I said, next time I do the road to Hana ALONE!
What a great test to demo a car's agility!

hpowders · April 2006

Thank you very much for that excellent link.
It really speaks the truth about Bose "audio."

I drove a Subaru Impreza through the Maui twisties and that little baby has earned my respect. A lot of fun!

syswei · April 2006

I thought MB was originally planning hood airbags rather than redesigning for hood/engine distance. What happened there?

syswei · April 2006

I think it is still in development, and will eventually see production...hopefully in an LS but that is speculation.

pat · April 2006

Follow-Up Test: 2006 Lamborghini Gallardo Spyder?

stevekilburn · April 2006

Hi gary

Thanks for these comments. I posted the same argument a day ago, that Bose is constrained by the budget of car companies,so a bose in a porsche is very good whereas a bose in a mass market company is not that impressive.

Bose home systems are very good. I have great respect for some of their innovations and cutting edge research.

Good luck and thanks for your support.

merc1 · April 2006

Oh goodness yes. I'm sure MB knew exactly what you speak of especially for their flagship model. What exactly have you seen about the W221's quality so far? The only thing I've seen is a total lack of "problem" threads on various Benz websites. Yeah can't wait to see what CR and JDP has to say about the 07's models. The build quality being much, much better than before is obvious from the moment you see the car, but the relibility has been the real demon in the past. Fingers crossed.

M

merc1 · April 2006

As far as I know that idea was nixed for complexity/cost reasons. I really didn't want them to go that route too much that could go wrong there IMO.

M

garyh1 · April 2006

Thanks, Steve. I was with you on the first paragraph regarding the Bose auto systems, but you lost my support on the "Bose home systems are very good" line in the second paragraph. In fact I fall in the "anti-Bose" camp on their home audio line.

But that's what makes horse races. :shades:

lexusguy · April 2006

"but you lost my support on the "Bose home systems are very good" line in the second paragraph. In fact I fall in the "anti-Bose" camp on their home audio line."

I'm with you on that one. A flagship speaker (the 901) that hasnt changed in what.. 30 years? is not what I would call "innovative" or "cutting edge" in the slightest. B&W's diamond tweeter, now that's cutting edge. Bose home equipment has not been cutting edge since Nixon was in office.

merc1 · April 2006

I must say I'm in awe reading all of this audio talk! I'm going to have to see if I can hear that new Audi B&O system one day. I see the LS460 is going for a record as far as the number of speakers on board. Like 19?

M

merc1 · April 2006

I think the very earliest we'll see hybrid from the Germans is 2010 and that could be wishful thinking. There's too much in the way of engineering, contracting, manufacturing, patents, etc. plus these partnerships could present a lot of momentum that has to be overcome.

I think it may be a little sooner than 2010, they seem to be working overtime on getting their hybrid technology on the road. A nice article about it just came out today.

M

designman · April 2006

Well that was Johnny on the Spot. Looks like a PR press release written in such a way to make us believe we could see a hybrid from them in 2008.

The Germans were slow with SUVs and there was more of an immediate gold mine there. Hybrids are a much more complex issue and I dont think there is any sales pressure from the market for them to rush it.

I am anxious to see what they bring to the table but I bet you a cup of coffee that it doesnt happen for MY 08.

;-)

stevekilburn · April 2006

Well then I will have to carry on without your support. I am in the pro-Bose camp forever and most of you guys are on the other side.

I am feeling like the few, the proud, the marines!

stevekilburn · April 2006

You could be in error there. They will bring it in Fall 07 as Year 2008 models.

blkhemi · April 2006

Most of the things I've read are the same things that you've come across. It's basically the lack of complaints reported to M-BZ/MBUSA vs. this same time in launch of the W220 in '99, as an early 2000 model. Interestingly to note that with this car completely covered in more electronics than before that this hasn't been an issue, not yet at least, much unlike the dreaded no-starts and complete electronic failures of the W220. Thankfully, my '01 S500 were absent of these problems and was virtually trouble-free.

BTW, I heard that M-B will bring the direct-injected S350 to the States along with the S450 and S600 next year. With a reported 300-hp(30+ less than the S450), this thing may not be such a slouch after all, much unlike the S350 it replaces. Wonder why they won't bring the CLS350 around the same time? Maybe they feel if a customer wants a V-6, they'll shoot for the E350.

tagman · April 2006

The 2-mode hybrid that the article refers to is a joint effort of Chrysler, GM, and BMW. Strange bedfellows . . . but the question is which vehicles would see it first. I would be very surprised to see it show up in any Mercedes or BMW models for a while. Unless the system is rock-solid, I would expect to see it first in Chrysler's own badge and GM vehicles.

If it does turn out to be rock-solid, then yes, it could be a good addition to the Mercedes line-up, possibly on the ML and the new upcoming C-Class first, since the E will aready be offering the diesel.

TagMan

tagman · April 2006

Nobody?

volvomax · April 2006

Car and Driver did a comparo between the Gallardo and an F430 this month.
F430 won.
Between the two, I would take the Lambo.

designman · April 2006

Yeah, I like it. But I'll take an F360 with three pedals.

lexusguy · April 2006

I dont like the Lambo's cut-and-paste A4 center stack. I had the exact same problem with the V12 Vanquish's Jag XK center stack. If I'm paying that much money for a car, I dont want to see mass market parts in it. Something like a vent here or a door handle there is ok I suppose, but not that kind of blatantly cheap cost cutting. The Maserati Spyder and V8 Vantage don't have Fiat or Ford center stacks, and they cost quite a bit less than the Lambo.

tagman · April 2006

lexusguy - Amazing . . . because we were just talking about that Quattroporte recently, and earlier today I saw one drive by in the neighborhood, a silver one, and I nearly twisted my neck off as my eyes were GLUED to that gorgeous vehicle. My gosh, so beautiful. It's the first one in the community that I've seen.

TagMan

tagman · April 2006

I spotted this on the internet earlier, so I posted it in the Toyota Prius forum for all those Prius folks, but since I don't post there, I thought I'd also share it with the rest of you.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12529975/

Maybe it is relevent to the upcoming Lexus LS600hL!!!!!!!!!

TagMan

drfill · April 2006

Have not been feeling well.

After reading a few posts, all I have to add is:

Merc

Re: Post #15191. Comparing the Jetta and IS350 stylistically, calling both "Slab-sided", to meet government crash regulations is a reach, at best. I am disappointed. You know better.

And regarding Honda's swing and a miss with the Accord Hybrid, maybe they had some faulty "Focus Clinics", maybe they thought Civic is for the frugal, and a flagship Accord Hybrid would be appropriate, and cover the extra costs.

But problems selling cars overseas, and Europes love of the Diesel means very little to me. The US is THE market to rule! We've got the cash, and we LOVE to spend it on cars, so making America your profit center, vs. incredible competition, unlike in Europe, speaks volumes, IMHO.

DrFill

blkhemi · April 2006

I came across a report yesterday that Mercedes sold almost 5000(4987) copies of the E320 CDI here in States in '05. Company target was only about 2500. So they've doubled their estimates. Now one can only wonder if M-B will cash in on our latest energy crisis and speed up delivery of the Bluetec into the U.S., which the technology is said to be ready for mass-market.

It seems that DCX is on a roll with diesel's in this country. Jeep sold almost 11k(10,845) CDI-equipped Liberty's last year. And it fully expects to sell all they can make for '06. Now there is even word that we'll get to enjoy what Europe's been enjoying in Jeep's for years: the 3.2 CDI for the Commander and JGC.

With gas prices as high as they are now, I fully expect DCX to completely rule the diesel passenger car market within 2-3 years in the States, with it's closest competitor being V-Dub. But they don't have nearly as many subsidiaries as DCX does in the states, or the amount of production. Sure, they'll have the usual Bettle and Jetta, but if they can't refine the awesome V-10 TDI before DCX makes their move, then they'll be left way behind.

Boy does this feel like 1975 all over again. :P

british_rover · April 2006

Land Rover should have a Bi-Turbo diesel in the US within the next two years. It will probably be a V8 although I am not sure. Rover is about to launch a new V8 Diesel in Europe to replace the old BMw TD6 they use right now and we might get a different version of that or maybe something totally different.

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