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Comments
hpowders . . . just remember . . . you have the right to remain silent. Anything you post can and will be used against you.
Caution . . . Merc will surely be able to retrieve any data you post at a moment's notice, without warning.
TagMan
I will make sure I have a double espresso the morning I drive the LS.
Can't risk regressing into third plateau dementia and mistaking the IS for the LS-could get downright embarrassing. I don't know how many times I can use the excuse, "it was dark."
Happened to me already when I thought I was driving the GS 430 and it was really the GS 300. The business guy from Joisey caught me on that one!
What a revoltin' development that was!
No kidding.... would be a nice study to perform. Last I checked, San Diego has LOTS of uber-rich folks. Realtors, retirees, techies, bankers, energy speculators, Hollywood recluses, insurance execs, golf magnates, biotech execs, and of course, home to the US Pacific Naval Fleet, and the accompanying military-industrial complex ! It has been shown that Rancho Santa Fe (92091) is on the top 5 richest zipcode in America, located a couple miles to my home - tho' physically close, but miles apart in bank statements.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050508/news_1h08rancho.html
Rumor has it that a few years ago, one gentleman outbid everyone else for an oceanfront home here in La Jolla, by a whopping $40 Million over the asking price !!! Now that is a grand purchase, and one that would fit Steve's definition of *premium* or "quantum leap" in pricing... An uber-HELM purchase, to be exact...
My money is on Chris now though I can't (won't) make time to watch it anymore..still upset about Paris, Mandisa, Ace all having been voted off.
Oh, well we both know that this whole thing is driven by age and looks to a point and the singing just happens to be the cover.
See any interesting HELMS today?
M
oac is living in a great area indeed.
I'm also a Californian, but relatively closer to Silicon Valley area / S.F. Bay area. Our area does have the number ONE richest zip code in Atherton, and number 6 in Marin county.
Truthfully, the entire area out here is so economically powerful it is almost ridiculous. But there is something to be said for that "sunshine tax".
And to paint a fair and balanced picture, there are also some areas that you would not want find yourself alone at night.
As oac can tell you, home prices are usually beyond many folks wildest imagination. The secret out here has always been to purchase real estate as soon as possible and keep working your way up as fast as possible to keep building more and more equity.
There is a magazine called "Unique Homes" that often showcases some of the nations top real estate from various areas, and it gives a glimpse into some of these markets. Also, for fun, you can go to some of the internet real estate sites and click on various areas around the country and see just what is on the market and how much it costs. It's a real eye-opener!!!
Personally, I love California. Yeah, there are a few too many "fruits and nuts", but nowadays they are everywhere, anyway. Recently, we went skiing and snowboarding on a Friday and surfing at the beach the next day, Saturday. Now, that's truly amazing to me. Then there are those giant redwoods and Yosemite and so much more.
I have some friends that just moved to New Jersey (job thing), and said it was absolutely beautiful. So, it just goes to show . . .it's a beautiful country we all live in, that's for sure.
But then again there's those guys from Long Island with 19-car garages! And those lucky Europeans are the ones that get the diesels . . . go figure.
TagMan
Ah. Good old 94027, tagman. Very nice!
Beyond belief, one would think that places like Southern Florida, Vegas, even rich-ole Houston Tex would have more of them. But here on the east coast, I'm seeing more and more very high-end exoctics(saw my first Enzo on this coast last week, and the guy down the street from me just purchased his Flying Spur). But we're still far behind other parts of the country.
TagMan
A not-so-hidden weakness ??? My dear Designman, my love for BMW has never been hidden ! It's just that I like Lexus just a tad more .... My wife's favorite HELM style-wise remains the 750i... I told her she needs to see the new LS before she decides a favorite... I hope the LS is better styled than the Bimmer, otherwise I won't hear the end of it if I choose to buy an LS460 instead of the Bimmer. Personally, I like the 3-er the most. Give me a 330i w/SP in silver/black, or an IS350 w/ML/Nav in red/tan, and I am a happy camper. The way I drive, I sure need an aggresive car, while the LS serves as a change of pace car for me. For my money, that IS350 looks far more aggresive than the Bimmer, so if I had a choice it'd be a tough one b/w the two... 5 years from now, with both of my kids in College, and a need to downsize from the big LX470 to a coupe/convert/sports car, then I'd see which one to take b/w an IS500/IS coupe, a 335ci w/SP, a Boxter, or something else in that $40-60K range in a true sport sedan/coupe... who knows what it'll be?
The only drawback(s) that a person would have on buying a Cali car is the Cali emissions(a few hp less than all other states), and if the car is used everyday, which can mean the car was idled extensively if driven in LA Freeway traffic.
The way I drive, I sure need an aggresive car
With an LS an LX you can’t rationalize trading the Matrix for the roller coaster ride? Heh, heh, it's easy helping people spend their money.
;-)
Kinda makes me wonder, does the Lincoln LT count? If so, I know where the customer base resides.
Oac
I'm surprised! Sounds like you have yet to see the Next LS? Having seen it live, and on tape, the styling is easily better than the S or 7, by generally taking less risks, while executing on the style upgrades they tried to make (Rocker panels, exhaust, chrome greenhouse surround, LED headlights).
Drove the 745/750 for a spell. When you are right up next to it, it seems like a very aggressive design for the old-money set. And it takes door chimes to an Amedeus-level! Didn't expect a concerto without my iPod locked and loaded!
DrFill
There's a certain style here, but it's often too easily misunderstood by Easterners. But I'd say that some folks are better represented by a slightly re-worded line from the animated movie Shark Tales, . . . "Deep down, they are very superficial".
Anyway, I thank God that Steve Kilburn is from New Jersey, because otherwise he'd have ALL of us out here in California totally misrepresented . . . he's Right Coast . . . if you know what I mean, dude.
TagMan
Au contraire... I am certainly an LS460 buyer, sight unseen; I have said that repeatedly, even tho' I have NOT seen the car in person yet. Pics, I hear, do not do the new LS justice enough, especially the 600hL. I am so much looking forward to seeing the new LS series soon. For the life of me, I could not believe Lexus didn't even let us on the Left Coast see this car ! How so ? I mean, 50% of the LS460/600hL buyers reside right here in SoCal, so why diss us this way, Lexus ?
I gather you like the 07 3-series coupe? Please elaborate.
I saw a cameo of the new 3-er coupe (front and back) and it didn't look that pretty to me. Like I said, its 5-yrs away before I can justify downsizing the family truck once we become an empty-nester home... When the time comes to buy a sport sedan/coupe/convertible, I will ALWAYS consider a Bimmer... especially a 3-er. I was seriously thinking of an IS350/330i last year but the LX470 won... You know why, right ? :) I drive my friends' e46 330ci/MT enough to love that car... BTW, me no likey the 5 or 7 !!
With an LS an LX you can’t rationalize trading the Matrix for the roller coaster ride?
Hehehehe.... That's a good one... The wife would not mind me getting rid of the Matrix, but I won't hear it. Need I repeat my oft stated love for my little Trix ? That car is very deceptive in speed. Its a damn dog going up the hill, but on flat or curvy roads, the car rocks... I am often at 90mph without even knowing it. Yes, I admit, I am lead-footed. Got to be out here, as you dang know very well Designman. You must be as well, I suppose, with a Boxter and a 530i... if you are not, I'd be shocked !!
I'm surprised! Sounds like you have yet to see the Next LS? Having seen it live, and on tape, the styling is easily better than the S or 7, by generally taking less risks, while executing on the style upgrades they tried to make (Rocker panels, exhaust, chrome greenhouse surround, LED headlights).
DrFill: Hope you are feeling much better now. No, I haven't seen the new LS series yet, sucks ! The pics are great looking tho', but nothing like seeing it in person, I'm sure. Got a call from my local Lex dealer that they were taking deposits. So I am on the list - Numero diez. Still think I should wait till March/April 2007 when the 600hL gets here to see if Lexus will deal on the LS460... I can hope, can't I ? BTW, the LED headlights are only on the 600hL. That car will be tough to beat when it gets here.
1. Any price increase on the E-Class for 07'?
2. In the new issue of Star there is a article about the diesels in which they confirm that a S320 will be added to the U.S. lineup early next year, any info as to whether it will be a LWB or SWB model?
Unfortunately it implies that Mercedes is still wrangling with the EPA on how to sell these cars in those remaining 5 states so the ones coming this fall and early next year are 45 state only.
3. The S65 AMG's price please?????
4. Why oh why aren't the M and R getting the new V8s for 2007 when every other Mercedes is?
Just a few questions sir....
M
As for the diesels, I've talked with my Jeep rep and he has confirmed to me that they will sell a variant of the Bluetec in the JGC and Commander, and possibly the Liberty, for the '08 model year. And they will get MB's 7-Gtronic tranny as the new engine is "supposedly" built around it, unlike that of the outgoing 3.2 CDI, which remains with MB's 5-speed Auto. So what does this means for MB? Judging from past marketing strategies, I don't think they'll let the Jeep come to market before the MB's are released. Maybe in unison, but not before. And I also here that Audi will encroach on the growing NA diesel market with release of their super clean(same technology as used on Bluetec, super-high capacity particulate and soot trap with only water vapor to exit the exhaust pipe) 3.0L V-6 TD that the Europeans have been boasting about since it's inception in '04. Hopefully the both of them will stick to the game plan.
As to the S65's pricing, I read in Autocar that the S65 won't stray far from it's '06 pricing, meaning about 170k. Then I heard to expect a price of about 173-175k, not too far off the mark. The new S-Class' price hasn't increased drastically, so I don't think the car would be priced to far off the mark. The S63 isn't that far off the S55's mark. The only S to be priced drastically higher(so to speak) is the S600, but that's because they wanted the flagship model to have every possible option standard, except of course the eventual interior upgrades.
I wondered too why the M and R aren't getting the new V8's for '07. The only new V-8 going in the M is the 6.2L for the ML63. But I've heard talks of the 4.7L out of the GL to be offered in the ML, to be priced 3-4 grand less than the bigger V-8. We'll see.
It is sort of a letdown to find out that the Bluetecs won't go on sale until the 2008 model year, but there is a S320 on board for sometime next year. That will be real interesting to see how it does.
There are so many new and/or facelifted MB products hitting the market in the latter half of this year its getting hard to keep track: E550, E63, CLS550, CLS63, ML63, S65, ML320, R320, E320, CLK63, CLK550 and a few more...gee whiz. :sick:
They've said all along that they're going to share the bluetec technology so I'm not surprised that Jeep will be getting a version though I remember seeing a Bluetec Grand Cherokee at Detroit, not the Commander, but either or doesn't really matter I guess.
I don't understand what Audi is going to do yet. I don't see the point of both a hybrid Q7 and a diesel version. One of them won't make the cut for the U.S. market IMO.
M
You and I both. Prior to the release of the Q7 on our shores, Audi said that the Q7 would be available in the following sequence: the 4.2 V-8, followed in the fall by the 3.6L V-6, and then a V-10 " 50 state compliant-clean" TDI. Now they say that the 5.0L V-10 will be in short supply because the Toureag will take most of the orders and with Porsche contemplating a TDI/hybrid model of the hot Cayenne(no pun intended :P ), so hence the release of the less torquey("only 395lb-ft") V-6 version, already on sale in Euro markets, and elsewhere. I don't see this engine making the NA cut either to satisfy we power hunger Americans. It's likely that the Audi will be paired with the V-10 TDI because the hybrid versions are years off because of development/production delays. It's likely the hybrids won't get here until the new for '09 A8 gets here to compete head-on with the LS600hL if Lexus holds true to what the car will be, V-8/hybrid/AWD technology.
BTW, I don't know if you knew or not, but VW/Audi and MB execs met with the EPA and DOT to discuss and finalize the approval on the Bluetec and TDI engines. My guest is they had to assure them that these engines are what they say they are. But surely the agencies will conduct in-house testing to certify they are. Funny how they can inprove emissions tests, which is well needed, but they can't improve or invent new ways of measuring fuel economy. Oh and the old CAFE increases are just a cute way of getting out of it. Why? Why? Why?
$200k FOR AN S65 AMG????? WHAT????? :mad: Can we all say Flying Spur, which is faster at the same price. To go from 170 to 200k is flat out ridiculous. Very dangerous territory. And I was crying over the 160k that I laid out for my S65. Price increase of 30-fold, huh? So the S63 is looking even better know. :P
Perhaps someone has started listening to Steve's pricing advice...but it isn't Lexus.
170k isn't enough. 200k sounds better.(lol)
Well that was just an estimate that Autoweek gave, nothing official yet. The Bentley may have a higher top speed, but the Benz will smoke it off the line and around the curves. Also, the Benz has the option of being de-limited as far as top speed goes.
M
Think of them as having similar power but differnt personalities like the A8L W12 and the S8, both have 450hp, but they arrive at that figure differently and have different driving characteristics.
M
Oh for sure. And with the option of being de-limited from it's restraint of 155mph(for the States, not Germany), it may take the Flying Spur's claim of the fastest 4-door car.
I think the Benz gets to 60 in 4 sec. flat, while the Flying Spur needs 4.5 secs. And that car is much too heavy(about 700 pounds heavier than the MB) too hustle around a corner like the S.
The only department it may have an edge is in ride and build quality, where it has to justify it's expensive cost of admission.
BTW, to get the Benz de-limited, is that a factory option now? I had a guy in Miami who is a authorized Brabaus agent take the limiter off of my S65. I got it up to about 180(on a closed track of course), but the car had so much in reserve that I ran out ot track, and it was nowhere near redlining.
Well . . . how 'bout THAT!
TagMan
I agree about the Bentley's build and hand crafthing though, that is the real reason why one would buy a Bentley, not to race it. I just don't look them as being "pure" anymore when I know that they have a lot of Phaeton underneath, but that is my issue. I like the Arnage a lot more than the Flying thingy.
M
M
As to MB's diesels, yes the company has shortcomings as all car companies experience. But it has been my experience that MB knows a thing or to about diesels, especially in the homeland of Europe, where they set the tone and standard for new diesel technology. Heck, all of the old 300SD's still tugging along( some are close to 20-years old mind you) should be a testament about how well the company executes, refines, and innovate diesel technology, like no other. The S320 will surely be a welcome model in MB's ever-expanding model line-up. I wonder if we'll get the 292-hp(400lb-ft of torque!!) variant? I read that all U.S.-bound models will get this variant? Then again, who knows. I also wonder how did MB support their claim of this engine being as quiet(at start-up even) as a gas engine. They say at full throttle, the engine is more refined and QUIETER than the outgoing super-smooth 5.0L V-8. This will be interesting to watch.
M
I also asked about the S65's pricing, and he says that MB will command about $185k for it. So about $15k from a year ago. But like the S600, EVERYTHIMG will be standard. Even as costly as the previous model was and the SL/CL65 were(are), they still had(have) options to be had. He also says that the SL65 will command OVER(yikes) $200k fully dressed. This is making the Continental GT look like a K-Mart Blue Light Special.
This is the same dealer that I purchased my '01 S500 and the S65 from and he's just waiting to pluck me from my W-12. I told him that I'll just have to wait until the S63 gets here to make a final analysis. But the S600 is very interesting and a marvel of a car. I can fully attest to MB stepping up huge in terms of quality and engineering on the W221 v. W220, and I thought the '05 S600 was impressive.
I always laugh at comments like this. It's almost as relevant as comments from the test drivers at the auto mags when they are asked what test car they'd buy if they could afford it. Let's look at this from a "REAL" business perspective instead of a homer perspective. That LS car is coming out to steal the thunder of the new S-class in the most important market in the world for the S-class and will cost $10K+ less (in many but not all cases) and will have a lot more horses and more technology. This isn't a one year thing - this is a tough long-term strategic initiative that Lexus is unveiling here and it's going to cause a lot of price problems, way more than the one dimensional pure American swb LS, and it's coming from a company that's on the top of its' game amd minting $16bln. a year in profits right now. Would you be sleeping soundly if you were an MB exec??? I sure as heck wouldn't be.
It's like '89 all over again. People and the industry predicted that the LS will be the surefire to end the production of the S, it's main nemesis. But MB counter-fired with the radical '92 S, much more edgy(and hugely bigger) than the classic outgoing '91. Lexus wanted this so badly that they imitated MB's designs for quite sometime in hopes of people forgetting about the world's luxury car.
Lexus has one huge obstacle standing in it's way: EUROPE! People there are so set on the status quo that they don't care if the Lexus could do it's on maintanence, they aren't that willing to give up the MB's, Bimmers, Jag's , and Audi's. Yes the price will yet again undercut the S, and probably every other car in it's class, as a base model. But price doesn't tell the whole story with people shopping in this category. The 16 year-old Lexus just doesn't have the decades and decades of prestige and loyalty that most of it's competitors have, albeit it does have a high return customer rate.
And this is not the first time that a redesign of the LS has stirred the pot. First the '95 redo, then '98, and '01 now comes '07. But the release of the '07 could prove detremental to the brand as the '01 didn't kick off like the S that came out only a year before it did.
I'm not a MB fanatic, however I do appreciate the brand for it's innovation and continued push on safety and convience products. Sure the brand has recently been plagued with quality probs, but what brand hasn't, including Toyota/Lexus?
MB's fan base is so much more superior to that of other brands that it proves unneeding for any other car company to try and overtake them. And judging from the sales of the W221, and the factory orders, which are both more than that of the W220 this time in it's release, yes, the MB execs can sleep for now.
The 2001 LS sold 36K cars vs a planned 25K. Followu-up years all exceeded the targeted 25K unit sales planned im year one. That model was a huge success so I don't get your point at all.
We'll now need to forget that Mercedes' sales are up a great deal this year both here and worldwide.
Funny thing is others here predicted the same type of doom and demise last year about the E-Class and 5-Series because of the new GS, but the GS is already hitting the skids one year later. Go figure. I wonder what the business reason is for this?
blkhemi - your comments are irrelevant, but all that business jazz (that most people couldn't care any less about) is somehow relevant.
M
We'll see about that. The LS460 has 380hp and the S550 has 382hp so I don't know where you're getting "more power" for the LS from. I guess you're comparing the LS600h to the S550? If Lexus wants to badge their car as a "600" in their usual wannabe attempt to imply status then they need more than 430hp to get with a real "600", a S600 that is.
I understand what you're saying about Lexus and their long term strategy, but homer (i.e. the average buyer) couldn't care less about that, they're looking at the car not Lexus' business model.
With all the quality problems Lexus' parent Toyota have had lately with Avalons and Camrys I wouldn't get too cocky about Lexus being so untouchable. Lexus was so lucky to have the Camry to come to market first so their owners would suffer those transmission failures first allowing Lexus to make sure it didn't happen on the ES350.
M
I guess the business reason for this is, don't have your CEO publically make untrue and ridiculous claims about a new vehicle.
You can fool some of the people.....
However, I am eagerly anticipating driving the new LS 460 this fall.
With the restyling, Lexus will have a winner here.
I don't remember anyone saying the GS would put the E out of business. Just that it would do well in sales at someone's expense, and it has. Somehow you seem to take every reference to problems to this extreme case of going out of business.
Flying Spur - In depth story in today's NY Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/14/automobiles/14AUTO.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
BTW - in that same auto section there's a lease ad for the $80K CLS500 at $749 per mo with $4K down, 39 months. Basically it's the equivalent of $850 a month. Looks like MB is dealing them as that looks like a cheap lease for that expensive of a car.
This is just spin, Merc1. No one is that dumb, to infer MB is going away bcos of the LS. That the S sales will be impacted by the new LS series is what Len is saying, and I concur. I believe you do too. Until the new LS series gets here, the S550 has the field pretty much to itself, hence it is enjoying its advantage right now. I have said it often, the LS and S will battle for sales supremacy. The LS will outsell the S, but the S will remain the top marque for sometime to come. With time, Lexus will achieve a status close to the MB... Its already 4th in prestige, according to a recent survey, just behind MB. We'll see...
But pls do NOT discount the business side of the car industry. Its why GM and Ford are in such big trouble today, while Toyota is minting $$$... To not include the business angle is perilous.. But of course, as a pure enthusast, and a narrow viewpoint, you are correct to focus solely on the car itself. That view is not general and too narrow...
I guess you missed the hype about the new GS this time last year. Anyway the GS has NOT done well at someone's expense. The Infiniti M that some here said didn't matter is actually starting to outsell the GS on a monthly basis and the E and 5 still outsell it quite easily so at who's expense has the GS been successful at??? Very curious to know who that is.
BTW - in that same auto section there's a lease ad for the $80K CLS500 at $749 per mo with $4K down, 39 months. Basically it's the equivalent of $850 a month. Looks like MB is dealing them as that looks like a cheap lease for that expensive of a car.
And your point is what? It would appear to me that what you saw was a local thing and not a nationwide deal for the CLS?
M
Nah the spin is when the implication is that Mercedes is going to be oh so severly impacted everytime Lexus makes a move. Then we get the more logical spin on the original whenever its called into question. Naturally I agree with what you're saying now. Sometimes though you guys make it seem like the S (and Mercedes itself) is going to all of a sudden stop selling because of the new LS, that is nonsense.
But pls do NOT discount the business side of the car industry. Its why GM and Ford are in such big trouble today, while Toyota is minting $$$... To not include the business angle is perilous.. But of course, as a pure enthusast, and a narrow viewpoint, you are correct to focus solely on the car itself. That view is not general and too narrow...
Really? Ford and GM's problems have nothing to do with this conversation nor does all this business doubletalk. Buyers don't care one bit about any of this. Are Toyota buyers staying away because of the CEO drama Toyota is currently having? Of course not. Nor do they care about how much money Toyota made last year. Not discounting the business end, just saying that it isn't relevant to us talking about cars.
You'll be unhappy to know that the GS is already down in sales just a year after introduction. That Infiniti M that you claimed wouldn't matter in the sales race due buyers not wanting a sportier car in that segment has managed to outsell your GS last month. I seem to remember a lot of hype this time last year about how the GS was going to do so much and yet its already hitting the skids. Go figure.
The only way all this business mumbo-jumbo would have anything to do with this is if Mercedes had put out a half-done, lacking S-Class like the W220 was upon its introduction as far as build and quality is concerned. Clearly (so far) this isn't the case this time around.
M
Superior? I don't think so. Even though I personally lean on the side of Eurocars, I still must recognize that the Lexus fan base is incredibly brand loyal, and statistics further prove that to be true . . . in fact, maybe even more so than MB fans.
TagMan
I think the point oac and lj are making is the S won't be so hot next year, so have your fun now, and pull that gross, cus a storm's coming!
Calling the LS Hybrid a 600 is fine, but with not much more than 450HP at the end, a price over $100k might justify the 600 moniker, to show a true S600 competitor.
Maybe LS550 would be more like it?
DrFill
But no matter how crappy, snotty, poorly MB assembles there cars, and I'm not saying they are, people will continue to buy them in droves. Some of the same people who're buying the W221 in it's first year are some of the ones who got pinched on the inception of the W220 with all of it's quality problems. And there are several in-house/independent studies that back up this.
But it has to be said again. The new LS, while said to be a greatly improved vehicle over it's predecessor, will not shudder the S alone. And yes, the marvel LS600hL will be a welcome addition to it's line, but it will not topple a S600. And we all forget that MB has so many different variants of the S that they too help push sales. Hopefully the LS won't be so one-dimensional this go round. It's going to take more than an Ultra pkg. to take on the S.