High End Luxury Cars

tagman · May 2006

I will post my impressions at that time. Hopefully, I will pay enough attention so I won't be actually driving an ES by mistake-a sure characteristic of a third plateauer.

hpowders . . . just remember . . . you have the right to remain silent. Anything you post can and will be used against you.

Caution . . . Merc will surely be able to retrieve any data you post at a moment's notice, without warning.

TagMan

hpowders · May 2006

"Anything you post can and will be used against you."

I will make sure I have a double espresso the morning I drive the LS.
Can't risk regressing into third plateau dementia and mistaking the IS for the LS-could get downright embarrassing. I don't know how many times I can use the excuse, "it was dark."

Happened to me already when I thought I was driving the GS 430 and it was really the GS 300. The business guy from Joisey caught me on that one!

What a revoltin' development that was!

blckislandguy · May 2006

Funny, I'd never have imagined that a Navy town would be big on conspicuous consumption. Does San Diego really have more HELMs on a per 1000 car basis than say Ft Lauderdale, Palm Beach, Las Vegas, LA, etc? Someone could do an R L Polk analysis on this and pick up an MA.

oac · May 2006

Funny, I'd never have imagined that a Navy town would be big on conspicuous consumption. Does San Diego really have more HELMs on a per 1000 car basis than say Ft Lauderdale, Palm Beach, Las Vegas, LA, etc?

No kidding.... would be a nice study to perform. Last I checked, San Diego has LOTS of uber-rich folks. Realtors, retirees, techies, bankers, energy speculators, Hollywood recluses, insurance execs, golf magnates, biotech execs, and of course, home to the US Pacific Naval Fleet, and the accompanying military-industrial complex ! It has been shown that Rancho Santa Fe (92091) is on the top 5 richest zipcode in America, located a couple miles to my home - tho' physically close, but miles apart in bank statements.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050508/news_1h08rancho.html

Rumor has it that a few years ago, one gentleman outbid everyone else for an oceanfront home here in La Jolla, by a whopping $40 Million over the asking price !!! Now that is a grand purchase, and one that would fit Steve's definition of *premium* or "quantum leap" in pricing...

An uber-HELM purchase, to be exact...

merc1 · May 2006

Yeah that may have been a little harsh because I do like Katherine too, but I guess overall this year was the worst group of finalist in the history of the competition, IMO of course.

My money is on Chris now though I can't (won't) make time to watch it anymore..still upset about Paris, Mandisa, Ace all having been voted off.

Oh, well we both know that this whole thing is driven by age and looks to a point and the singing just happens to be the cover.

See any interesting HELMS today?

M

tagman · May 2006

I have friends who live in La Jolla that I had first met when I lived in Maui for about three years. Wow . . . San Diego, La Jolla, and area are top notch due to incredible weather and beaches. If you like great restaurants, the area is loaded with 'em.

oac is living in a great area indeed.

I'm also a Californian, but relatively closer to Silicon Valley area / S.F. Bay area. Our area does have the number ONE richest zip code in Atherton, and number 6 in Marin county.

Truthfully, the entire area out here is so economically powerful it is almost ridiculous. But there is something to be said for that "sunshine tax".

And to paint a fair and balanced picture, there are also some areas that you would not want find yourself alone at night.

As oac can tell you, home prices are usually beyond many folks wildest imagination. The secret out here has always been to purchase real estate as soon as possible and keep working your way up as fast as possible to keep building more and more equity.

There is a magazine called "Unique Homes" that often showcases some of the nations top real estate from various areas, and it gives a glimpse into some of these markets. Also, for fun, you can go to some of the internet real estate sites and click on various areas around the country and see just what is on the market and how much it costs. It's a real eye-opener!!!

Personally, I love California. Yeah, there are a few too many "fruits and nuts", but nowadays they are everywhere, anyway. Recently, we went skiing and snowboarding on a Friday and surfing at the beach the next day, Saturday. Now, that's truly amazing to me. Then there are those giant redwoods and Yosemite and so much more.

I have some friends that just moved to New Jersey (job thing), and said it was absolutely beautiful. So, it just goes to show . . .it's a beautiful country we all live in, that's for sure.

But then again there's those guys from Long Island with 19-car garages! And those lucky Europeans are the ones that get the diesels . . . go figure.

TagMan

hpowders · May 2006

is great if you live there, but if you don't, try and find a parking space!

Ah. Good old 94027, tagman. Very nice!

blkhemi · May 2006

I have to agree. My son lives in La Jolla(techno overload geek) and there are some pretty nice HELM's there that makes Rodeo Drive look like a strip mall(He drives a Lambo Murecilago, and I thought that was something until I saw a Porsche Carrera GT-twice the price). It's like the further south in SoCal, the better. During my years in Orange County(uber-rich Newport Beach-Balboa Estates), I saw more HELM's there than in LA, you'd think it would be vice versa.

Beyond belief, one would think that places like Southern Florida, Vegas, even rich-ole Houston Tex would have more of them. But here on the east coast, I'm seeing more and more very high-end exoctics(saw my first Enzo on this coast last week, and the guy down the street from me just purchased his Flying Spur). But we're still far behind other parts of the country.

tagman · May 2006

One other very cool fact about HELMS and cars in general in California is that the milder climate and sunny weather cause less wear and tear to the vehicles. Years ago the difference between a used East-coast car and a California car was much more dramatic, particularly regarding rust and body damage, but modern manufacturing techniques have improved a lot in that area. But there is still a general advantage to a California car, IMO.

TagMan

oac · May 2006

(Pssst... Oac shows a not-so-hidden weakness for bimmers. He could be here soon enough.)

A not-so-hidden weakness ??? My dear Designman, my love for BMW has never been hidden ! It's just that I like Lexus just a tad more .... My wife's favorite HELM style-wise remains the 750i... I told her she needs to see the new LS before she decides a favorite... I hope the LS is better styled than the Bimmer, otherwise I won't hear the end of it if I choose to buy an LS460 instead of the Bimmer. Personally, I like the 3-er the most. Give me a 330i w/SP in silver/black, or an IS350 w/ML/Nav in red/tan, and I am a happy camper. The way I drive, I sure need an aggresive car, while the LS serves as a change of pace car for me. For my money, that IS350 looks far more aggresive than the Bimmer, so if I had a choice it'd be a tough one b/w the two... 5 years from now, with both of my kids in College, and a need to downsize from the big LX470 to a coupe/convert/sports car, then I'd see which one to take b/w an IS500/IS coupe, a 335ci w/SP, a Boxter, or something else in that $40-60K range in a true sport sedan/coupe... who knows what it'll be?

blkhemi · May 2006

I totally agree with you on this one. The drier air does wonders for the cars in the way they maintain their "newness". In the older days, it used to be a statement to advertise a car as a "California" car, meaning that because of the mostly sunny and dry conditions, the car was in better shape than say a wet-from-the-winter New York-owned car.

The only drawback(s) that a person would have on buying a Cali car is the Cali emissions(a few hp less than all other states), and if the car is used everyday, which can mean the car was idled extensively if driven in LA Freeway traffic.

designman · May 2006

Oac, you dont sound like your ol self with regard to the new LS but Id be surprised if you didnt buy it. I gather you like the 07 3-series coupe? Please elaborate.

The way I drive, I sure need an aggresive car

With an LS an LX you cant rationalize trading the Matrix for the roller coaster ride? Heh, heh, it's easy helping people spend their money.

;-)

blckislandguy · May 2006

Tagman, speaking of fruits and nuts, half the people I talk with from the Left Coast have this Kato Catlin (of O J fame) non-linear way of thinking. If you know what I mean, dude.

drfilll · May 2006

Representin' H-Town, haven't seen many HELMs, outside of more than a couple SC430s and a Shelby Cobra. But then again, I do live in the Po' side of town.

Kinda makes me wonder, does the Lincoln LT count? If so, I know where the customer base resides.

Oac

I'm surprised! Sounds like you have yet to see the Next LS? Having seen it live, and on tape, the styling is easily better than the S or 7, by generally taking less risks, while executing on the style upgrades they tried to make (Rocker panels, exhaust, chrome greenhouse surround, LED headlights).

Drove the 745/750 for a spell. When you are right up next to it, it seems like a very aggressive design for the old-money set. And it takes door chimes to an Amedeus-level! Didn't expect a concerto without my iPod locked and loaded!

DrFill

tagman · May 2006

Tagman, . . . half the people I talk with from the Left Coast have this Kato Catlin (of O J fame) non-linear way of thinking. If you know what I mean, dude.

There's a certain style here, but it's often too easily misunderstood by Easterners. But I'd say that some folks are better represented by a slightly re-worded line from the animated movie Shark Tales, . . . "Deep down, they are very superficial".

Anyway, I thank God that Steve Kilburn is from New Jersey, because otherwise he'd have ALL of us out here in California totally misrepresented . . . he's Right Coast . . . if you know what I mean, dude.

TagMan

oac · May 2006

Oac, you dont sound like your ol self with regard to the new LS but Id be surprised if you didnt buy it.

Au contraire... I am certainly an LS460 buyer, sight unseen; I have said that repeatedly, even tho' I have NOT seen the car in person yet. Pics, I hear, do not do the new LS justice enough, especially the 600hL. I am so much looking forward to seeing the new LS series soon. For the life of me, I could not believe Lexus didn't even let us on the Left Coast see this car ! How so ? I mean, 50% of the LS460/600hL buyers reside right here in SoCal, so why diss us this way, Lexus ?

I gather you like the 07 3-series coupe? Please elaborate.

I saw a cameo of the new 3-er coupe (front and back) and it didn't look that pretty to me. Like I said, its 5-yrs away before I can justify downsizing the family truck once we become an empty-nester home... When the time comes to buy a sport sedan/coupe/convertible, I will ALWAYS consider a Bimmer... especially a 3-er. I was seriously thinking of an IS350/330i last year but the LX470 won... You know why, right ?

:) I drive my friends' e46 330ci/MT enough to love that car... BTW, me no likey the 5 or 7 !!

With an LS an LX you cant rationalize trading the Matrix for the roller coaster ride?

Hehehehe.... That's a good one... The wife would not mind me getting rid of the Matrix, but I won't hear it. Need I repeat my oft stated love for my little Trix ? That car is very deceptive in speed. Its a damn dog going up the hill, but on flat or curvy roads, the car rocks... I am often at 90mph without even knowing it. Yes, I admit, I am lead-footed. Got to be out here, as you dang know very well Designman. You must be as well, I suppose, with a Boxter and a 530i... if you are not, I'd be shocked !!

oac · May 2006

Oac

I'm surprised! Sounds like you have yet to see the Next LS? Having seen it live, and on tape, the styling is easily better than the S or 7, by generally taking less risks, while executing on the style upgrades they tried to make (Rocker panels, exhaust, chrome greenhouse surround, LED headlights).

DrFill: Hope you are feeling much better now. No, I haven't seen the new LS series yet, sucks ! The pics are great looking tho', but nothing like seeing it in person, I'm sure. Got a call from my local Lex dealer that they were taking deposits. So I am on the list - Numero diez. Still think I should wait till March/April 2007 when the 600hL gets here to see if Lexus will deal on the LS460... I can hope, can't I ? BTW, the LED headlights are only on the 600hL. That car will be tough to beat when it gets here.

benzster · May 2006

Something I thought was interesting.... My sister in law was driving an ES and replaced it with an RX300. She loves Lexus for all the reasons that everyone states. She is an empty nester and just replaced it with a top of the line Camry. Go figure right. About 2 weeks ago she stated that her next car was going to be a BMW. I thought, no way, has she even driven one? She said she wanted a "sporty hugging the road" kind of car. I suggested that she drive my CLK350 to see if maybe the handling and ride might be an easier transition for her. After driving she said it was very luxurious but not sporty enough. Well I was very surprised! One more for the German side! Maybe I will put her in a CLK6.5 hehehe

merc1 · May 2006

A few 07' model questions:

1. Any price increase on the E-Class for 07'?

2. In the new issue of Star there is a article about the diesels in which they confirm that a S320 will be added to the U.S. lineup early next year, any info as to whether it will be a LWB or SWB model?

Unfortunately it implies that Mercedes is still wrangling with the EPA on how to sell these cars in those remaining 5 states so the ones coming this fall and early next year are 45 state only.

3. The S65 AMG's price please?????

4. Why oh why aren't the M and R getting the new V8s for 2007 when every other Mercedes is?

Just a few questions sir....

M

blkhemi · May 2006

I haven't read anything on any price increases on the E-Class, despite the mild refreshening and the use of the 5.5L V-8 in the E550. The E63 is said to increase only nominally so. No biggie for arguably my favorite mid-size luxury, the super E55/upcoming E63(used to be the RS 6 before Audi pulled the plug on it, but the Euro's are still enjoying the M5 beating beast on the new A6 platform). Can't wait to drive the car as the E55 scared the living daylights out of me.(Hope they've dialed down ESP and dialed UP ABC and reworked Airmatic and brakes, like the CLS's system)

As for the diesels, I've talked with my Jeep rep and he has confirmed to me that they will sell a variant of the Bluetec in the JGC and Commander, and possibly the Liberty, for the '08 model year. And they will get MB's 7-Gtronic tranny as the new engine is "supposedly" built around it, unlike that of the outgoing 3.2 CDI, which remains with MB's 5-speed Auto. So what does this means for MB? Judging from past marketing strategies, I don't think they'll let the Jeep come to market before the MB's are released. Maybe in unison, but not before. And I also here that Audi will encroach on the growing NA diesel market with release of their super clean(same technology as used on Bluetec, super-high capacity particulate and soot trap with only water vapor to exit the exhaust pipe) 3.0L V-6 TD that the Europeans have been boasting about since it's inception in '04. Hopefully the both of them will stick to the game plan.

As to the S65's pricing, I read in Autocar that the S65 won't stray far from it's '06 pricing, meaning about 170k. Then I heard to expect a price of about 173-175k, not too far off the mark. The new S-Class' price hasn't increased drastically, so I don't think the car would be priced to far off the mark. The S63 isn't that far off the S55's mark. The only S to be priced drastically higher(so to speak) is the S600, but that's because they wanted the flagship model to have every possible option standard, except of course the eventual interior upgrades.

I wondered too why the M and R aren't getting the new V8's for '07. The only new V-8 going in the M is the 6.2L for the ML63. But I've heard talks of the 4.7L out of the GL to be offered in the ML, to be priced 3-4 grand less than the bigger V-8. We'll see.

blkhemi · May 2006

With Houston being the richest city in the Oil State, and one of the richest cities in the U.S. and 4th biggest city in the nation, it only makes since that there will be some pretty nice HELM's there, even on the Po'Side(lol). :P

merc1 · May 2006

I'm not sure if the S65 will remain in the 170's Autoweek is saying 200K...gulp! I'd bet on 185-190K.

It is sort of a letdown to find out that the Bluetecs won't go on sale until the 2008 model year, but there is a S320 on board for sometime next year. That will be real interesting to see how it does.

There are so many new and/or facelifted MB products hitting the market in the latter half of this year its getting hard to keep track: E550, E63, CLS550, CLS63, ML63, S65, ML320, R320, E320, CLK63, CLK550 and a few more...gee whiz. :sick:

They've said all along that they're going to share the bluetec technology so I'm not surprised that Jeep will be getting a version though I remember seeing a Bluetec Grand Cherokee at Detroit, not the Commander, but either or doesn't really matter I guess.

I don't understand what Audi is going to do yet. I don't see the point of both a hybrid Q7 and a diesel version. One of them won't make the cut for the U.S. market IMO.

M

blkhemi · May 2006

"I don't understand what Audi is going to do yet......"

You and I both. Prior to the release of the Q7 on our shores, Audi said that the Q7 would be available in the following sequence: the 4.2 V-8, followed in the fall by the 3.6L V-6, and then a V-10 " 50 state compliant-clean" TDI. Now they say that the 5.0L V-10 will be in short supply because the Toureag will take most of the orders and with Porsche contemplating a TDI/hybrid model of the hot Cayenne(no pun intended :P ), so hence the release of the less torquey("only 395lb-ft") V-6 version, already on sale in Euro markets, and elsewhere. I don't see this engine making the NA cut either to satisfy we power hunger Americans. It's likely that the Audi will be paired with the V-10 TDI because the hybrid versions are years off because of development/production delays. It's likely the hybrids won't get here until the new for '09 A8 gets here to compete head-on with the LS600hL if Lexus holds true to what the car will be, V-8/hybrid/AWD technology.

BTW, I don't know if you knew or not, but VW/Audi and MB execs met with the EPA and DOT to discuss and finalize the approval on the Bluetec and TDI engines. My guest is they had to assure them that these engines are what they say they are. But surely the agencies will conduct in-house testing to certify they are. Funny how they can inprove emissions tests, which is well needed, but they can't improve or invent new ways of measuring fuel economy. Oh and the old CAFE increases are just a cute way of getting out of it. Why? Why? Why?

$200k FOR AN S65 AMG????? WHAT????? :mad: Can we all say Flying Spur, which is faster at the same price. To go from 170 to 200k is flat out ridiculous. Very dangerous territory. And I was crying over the 160k that I laid out for my S65. Price increase of 30-fold, huh? So the S63 is looking even better know.

:P

syswei · May 2006

$200k FOR AN S65 AMG????? WHAT?????

Perhaps someone has started listening to Steve's pricing advice...but it isn't Lexus.

anthonyp · May 2006

Thank goodness..

blkhemi · May 2006

Let's hope not. I wouldn't think a company that's been around 120 years would charge for a car what "feels" right.

170k isn't enough. 200k sounds better.(lol)

merc1 · May 2006

$200k FOR AN S65 AMG????? WHAT????? Can we all say Flying Spur, which is faster at the same price. To go from 170 to 200k is flat out ridiculous. Very dangerous territory. And I was crying over the 160k that I laid out for my S65. Price increase of 30-fold, huh? So the S63 is looking even better know

Well that was just an estimate that Autoweek gave, nothing official yet. The Bentley may have a higher top speed, but the Benz will smoke it off the line and around the curves. Also, the Benz has the option of being de-limited as far as top speed goes.

M

oac · May 2006

Excuse my ignorance, Merc1 or blkhemi, but what other difference exists b/w the naturally aspirated S63 and the turbo-charged S65 ?

merc1 · May 2006

The S63 is or I should say will be a turbocharged V8 with "around" 570hp/610lb-ft of torque and and the S65 is a turbocharged V12 with 604hp and 738lb-ft of torque. The S63 will be the lighter, better handling of the two. Not sure what other differences Mercedes will make between the two.

Think of them as having similar power but differnt personalities like the A8L W12 and the S8, both have 450hp, but they arrive at that figure differently and have different driving characteristics.

M

blkhemi · May 2006

"....but the Benz will smoke it off the line......"

Oh for sure. And with the option of being de-limited from it's restraint of 155mph(for the States, not Germany), it may take the Flying Spur's claim of the fastest 4-door car.

I think the Benz gets to 60 in 4 sec. flat, while the Flying Spur needs 4.5 secs. And that car is much too heavy(about 700 pounds heavier than the MB) too hustle around a corner like the S.

The only department it may have an edge is in ride and build quality, where it has to justify it's expensive cost of admission.

BTW, to get the Benz de-limited, is that a factory option now? I had a guy in Miami who is a authorized Brabaus agent take the limiter off of my S65. I got it up to about 180(on a closed track of course), but the car had so much in reserve that I ran out ot track, and it was nowhere near redlining.

tagman · May 2006

In the new issue of Star there is a article about the diesels in which they confirm that a S320 will be added to the U.S. lineup early next year

Well . . . how 'bout THAT!

TagMan

merc1 · May 2006

Yeah its one of those things that "if you ask" we'll do it. With the 030 AMG performance package on the CLS55, SLK55 and SL55 the limter is adjusted to 186mph on those cars. Of course with money in hand AMG will take it off completely from what I've read about the S65 AMG. We're talking 200 mph here I think!

I agree about the Bentley's build and hand crafthing though, that is the real reason why one would buy a Bentley, not to race it. I just don't look them as being "pure" anymore when I know that they have a lot of Phaeton underneath, but that is my issue. I like the Arnage a lot more than the Flying thingy.

M

merc1 · May 2006

Yes, imagine my reaction as I read that. A S320 diesel in time for spring 07'! Going to be a hot car if all those old S-Class diesels I see lumbering down the road come in for an upgrade.

M

blkhemi · May 2006

The Flying Spur is indeed not a "complete" Bentley. Bentley will argue that they used a lot of Phaeton underneath to keep relative(production) cost down. I can somewhat see that, but the average person(s) that buy these cars buy them because of the exclusivity and unobtainablity. And they have so much disposible income that they could care less about trying to make the car more affordable for those with "less". The Flying Spur is a great car tho. But the Arnage/T scream "all" Bentley with it's upright, somewhat boxy profile(classic Bentley), as do Bentley's extremely powerful 6.75L(engines).(What other car company can get away with giving their engine's a numerical symbol of 6.75L besides Bentley?)

As to MB's diesels, yes the company has shortcomings as all car companies experience. But it has been my experience that MB knows a thing or to about diesels, especially in the homeland of Europe, where they set the tone and standard for new diesel technology. Heck, all of the old 300SD's still tugging along( some are close to 20-years old mind you) should be a testament about how well the company executes, refines, and innovate diesel technology, like no other. The S320 will surely be a welcome model in MB's ever-expanding model line-up. I wonder if we'll get the 292-hp(400lb-ft of torque!!) variant? I read that all U.S.-bound models will get this variant? Then again, who knows. I also wonder how did MB support their claim of this engine being as quiet(at start-up even) as a gas engine. They say at full throttle, the engine is more refined and QUIETER than the outgoing super-smooth 5.0L V-8. This will be interesting to watch.

merc1 · May 2006

Well I think we'll only see the V6 diesel here. The V8 would be a very expensive addition and I don't think it would make sense to MBUSA to clean it up for 50-state duty. The new 3.0L V6 makes 224hp and 376lb-ft of torque, that would make the S320 a decent performer.

M

blkhemi · May 2006

I turned the S600 back in today(sadly so-I had it for a week and it was a blast to have) and I mentioned to the GM of the MB dealer that a lot of us fellas have debates over Lexus, Audi, BMW,MB, Jag, even Caddy and I asked him if he'd heard anything about the new LS being superior to the S in terms of technology and innovation. The only thing he would relate to me was that the LS wilil be a "total" departure from Lexus, BUT, it still won't have MB execs losing sleep, albeit, a few sales the first year tho. He did mentions also that the LS600hL will "be a technological force to be reckoned with".

I also asked about the S65's pricing, and he says that MB will command about $185k for it. So about $15k from a year ago. But like the S600, EVERYTHIMG will be standard. Even as costly as the previous model was and the SL/CL65 were(are), they still had(have) options to be had. He also says that the SL65 will command OVER(yikes) $200k fully dressed. This is making the Continental GT look like a K-Mart Blue Light Special.

This is the same dealer that I purchased my '01 S500 and the S65 from and he's just waiting to pluck me from my W-12. I told him that I'll just have to wait until the S63 gets here to make a final analysis. But the S600 is very interesting and a marvel of a car. I can fully attest to MB stepping up huge in terms of quality and engineering on the W221 v. W220, and I thought the '05 S600 was impressive.

ljflx · May 2006

"The only thing he would relate to me was that the LS wilil be a "total" departure from Lexus, BUT, it still won't have MB execs losing sleep"

I always laugh at comments like this. It's almost as relevant as comments from the test drivers at the auto mags when they are asked what test car they'd buy if they could afford it. Let's look at this from a "REAL" business perspective instead of a homer perspective. That LS car is coming out to steal the thunder of the new S-class in the most important market in the world for the S-class and will cost $10K+ less (in many but not all cases) and will have a lot more horses and more technology. This isn't a one year thing - this is a tough long-term strategic initiative that Lexus is unveiling here and it's going to cause a lot of price problems, way more than the one dimensional pure American swb LS, and it's coming from a company that's on the top of its' game amd minting $16bln. a year in profits right now. Would you be sleeping soundly if you were an MB exec??? I sure as heck wouldn't be.

blkhemi · May 2006

It's nice to think that the new LS will take the class by storm. But we can't dream forever and we must at one point come down on our artificial high.

It's like '89 all over again. People and the industry predicted that the LS will be the surefire to end the production of the S, it's main nemesis. But MB counter-fired with the radical '92 S, much more edgy(and hugely bigger) than the classic outgoing '91. Lexus wanted this so badly that they imitated MB's designs for quite sometime in hopes of people forgetting about the world's luxury car.

Lexus has one huge obstacle standing in it's way: EUROPE! People there are so set on the status quo that they don't care if the Lexus could do it's on maintanence, they aren't that willing to give up the MB's, Bimmers, Jag's , and Audi's. Yes the price will yet again undercut the S, and probably every other car in it's class, as a base model. But price doesn't tell the whole story with people shopping in this category. The 16 year-old Lexus just doesn't have the decades and decades of prestige and loyalty that most of it's competitors have, albeit it does have a high return customer rate.

And this is not the first time that a redesign of the LS has stirred the pot. First the '95 redo, then '98, and '01 now comes '07. But the release of the '07 could prove detremental to the brand as the '01 didn't kick off like the S that came out only a year before it did.

I'm not a MB fanatic, however I do appreciate the brand for it's innovation and continued push on safety and convience products. Sure the brand has recently been plagued with quality probs, but what brand hasn't, including Toyota/Lexus?

MB's fan base is so much more superior to that of other brands that it proves unneeding for any other car company to try and overtake them. And judging from the sales of the W221, and the factory orders, which are both more than that of the W220 this time in it's release, yes, the MB execs can sleep for now.

ljflx · May 2006

And in all that bluster MB's ink turned red, it's growth was undercut worldwide and went flat to down a tad in the US, it's costs skyrocketed, and it's quality slipped precipitously. I can't imagine an MB exec that sleeps with no fears. That's being quite unrealistic. The moment Lexus builds cars for the European market and builds them in Europe just watch how fast people there snap them up. Europe is nationalistic but foreign companies that build a quality product score very high provided they build their products there. As long as it's built there the Europeans consider the company one of their own.

The 2001 LS sold 36K cars vs a planned 25K. Followu-up years all exceeded the targeted 25K unit sales planned im year one. That model was a huge success so I don't get your point at all.

merc1 · May 2006

You'll have to forgive some of our resident Lexusfans, they'll try to put a business spin to everything like the cars themselves don't matter at all. Its all about the business and how MB execs are so worried and can't sleep at night and the always pending demise of Mercedes-Benz. It has been this way for years now. The Lexus LS is coming to compete with one car, the S-Class...not the others in the class so it is said. Only the S-Class will be hurt according to this theory and the same thing was predicted back in 2001 with that LS. Mercedes is always in dire trouble anytime Lexus introduces a new model.

We'll now need to forget that Mercedes' sales are up a great deal this year both here and worldwide.

Funny thing is others here predicted the same type of doom and demise last year about the E-Class and 5-Series because of the new GS, but the GS is already hitting the skids one year later. Go figure. I wonder what the business reason is for this?

blkhemi - your comments are irrelevant, but all that business jazz (that most people couldn't care any less about) is somehow relevant.

M

merc1 · May 2006

That LS car is coming out to steal the thunder of the new S-class in the most important market in the world for the S-class and will cost $10K+ less (in many but not all cases) and will have a lot more horses and more technology.

We'll see about that. The LS460 has 380hp and the S550 has 382hp so I don't know where you're getting "more power" for the LS from. I guess you're comparing the LS600h to the S550? If Lexus wants to badge their car as a "600" in their usual wannabe attempt to imply status then they need more than 430hp to get with a real "600", a S600 that is.

I understand what you're saying about Lexus and their long term strategy, but homer (i.e. the average buyer) couldn't care less about that, they're looking at the car not Lexus' business model.

With all the quality problems Lexus' parent Toyota have had lately with Avalons and Camrys I wouldn't get too cocky about Lexus being so untouchable. Lexus was so lucky to have the Camry to come to market first so their owners would suffer those transmission failures first allowing Lexus to make sure it didn't happen on the ES350.

M

hpowders · May 2006

"The GS is already hitting the skids."

I guess the business reason for this is, don't have your CEO publically make untrue and ridiculous claims about a new vehicle.
You can fool some of the people.....

However, I am eagerly anticipating driving the new LS 460 this fall.
With the restyling, Lexus will have a winner here.

ljflx · May 2006

Homer was a reference to the dealer GM not the buyer.

I don't remember anyone saying the GS would put the E out of business. Just that it would do well in sales at someone's expense, and it has. Somehow you seem to take every reference to problems to this extreme case of going out of business.

Flying Spur - In depth story in today's NY Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/14/automobiles/14AUTO.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

BTW - in that same auto section there's a lease ad for the $80K CLS500 at $749 per mo with $4K down, 39 months. Basically it's the equivalent of $850 a month. Looks like MB is dealing them as that looks like a cheap lease for that expensive of a car.

oac · May 2006

You'll have to forgive some of our resident Lexusfans, they'll try to put a business spin to everything like the cars themselves don't matter at all. Its all about the business and how MB execs are so worried and can't sleep at night and the always pending demise of Mercedes-Benz. It has been this way for years now. The Lexus LS is coming to compete with one car, the S-Class...not the others in the class so it is said. Only the S-Class will be hurt according to this theory and the same thing was predicted back in 2001 with that LS. Mercedes is always in dire trouble anytime Lexus introduces a new model.

This is just spin, Merc1. No one is that dumb, to infer MB is going away bcos of the LS. That the S sales will be impacted by the new LS series is what Len is saying, and I concur. I believe you do too. Until the new LS series gets here, the S550 has the field pretty much to itself, hence it is enjoying its advantage right now. I have said it often, the LS and S will battle for sales supremacy. The LS will outsell the S, but the S will remain the top marque for sometime to come. With time, Lexus will achieve a status close to the MB... Its already 4th in prestige, according to a recent survey, just behind MB. We'll see...

But pls do NOT discount the business side of the car industry. Its why GM and Ford are in such big trouble today, while Toyota is minting $$$... To not include the business angle is perilous.. But of course, as a pure enthusast, and a narrow viewpoint, you are correct to focus solely on the car itself. That view is not general and too narrow...

merc1 · May 2006

I don't remember anyone saying the GS would put the E out of business. Just that it would do well in sales at someone's expense, and it has. Somehow you seem to take every reference to problems to this extreme case of going out of business.

I guess you missed the hype about the new GS this time last year. Anyway the GS has NOT done well at someone's expense. The Infiniti M that some here said didn't matter is actually starting to outsell the GS on a monthly basis and the E and 5 still outsell it quite easily so at who's expense has the GS been successful at??? Very curious to know who that is.

BTW - in that same auto section there's a lease ad for the $80K CLS500 at $749 per mo with $4K down, 39 months. Basically it's the equivalent of $850 a month. Looks like MB is dealing them as that looks like a cheap lease for that expensive of a car.

And your point is what? It would appear to me that what you saw was a local thing and not a nationwide deal for the CLS?

M

merc1 · May 2006

This is just spin, Merc1. No one is that dumb, to infer MB is going away bcos of the LS. That the S sales will be impacted by the new LS series is what Len is saying, and I concur. I believe you do too.

Nah the spin is when the implication is that Mercedes is going to be oh so severly impacted everytime Lexus makes a move. Then we get the more logical spin on the original whenever its called into question. Naturally I agree with what you're saying now. Sometimes though you guys make it seem like the S (and Mercedes itself) is going to all of a sudden stop selling because of the new LS, that is nonsense.

But pls do NOT discount the business side of the car industry. Its why GM and Ford are in such big trouble today, while Toyota is minting $$$... To not include the business angle is perilous.. But of course, as a pure enthusast, and a narrow viewpoint, you are correct to focus solely on the car itself. That view is not general and too narrow...

Really? Ford and GM's problems have nothing to do with this conversation nor does all this business doubletalk. Buyers don't care one bit about any of this. Are Toyota buyers staying away because of the CEO drama Toyota is currently having? Of course not. Nor do they care about how much money Toyota made last year. Not discounting the business end, just saying that it isn't relevant to us talking about cars.

You'll be unhappy to know that the GS is already down in sales just a year after introduction. That Infiniti M that you claimed wouldn't matter in the sales race due buyers not wanting a sportier car in that segment has managed to outsell your GS last month. I seem to remember a lot of hype this time last year about how the GS was going to do so much and yet its already hitting the skids. Go figure.

The only way all this business mumbo-jumbo would have anything to do with this is if Mercedes had put out a half-done, lacking S-Class like the W220 was upon its introduction as far as build and quality is concerned. Clearly (so far) this isn't the case this time around.

M

ljflx · May 2006

My gosh Merc, you can't handle anything from OAC or myself. You take everything so dramatically out of context that it's ashame. I'm sure you were even reading a negative comment into the lease when in fact the point was nothing more than to note that pricing for anyone interested in the car. Lighten up.

tagman · May 2006

MB's fan base is so much more superior to that of other brands that it proves unneeding for any other car company to try and overtake them.

Superior? I don't think so. Even though I personally lean on the side of Eurocars, I still must recognize that the Lexus fan base is incredibly brand loyal, and statistics further prove that to be true . . . in fact, maybe even more so than MB fans.

TagMan

drfilll · May 2006

And will give the next GS more chutzpah next time around. Trying not to offend is not gonna get it in the mid-luxury class!

I think the point oac and lj are making is the S won't be so hot next year, so have your fun now, and pull that gross, cus a storm's coming!

Calling the LS Hybrid a 600 is fine, but with not much more than 450HP at the end, a price over $100k might justify the 600 moniker, to show a true S600 competitor.

Maybe LS550 would be more like it?

DrFill

blkhemi · May 2006

Yes it is true, Lexus does have ONE of the best the best fan/buyer bases around. If I were a Lexus buyer, I'd see no need to cross-shop the comp. as these appliances are very reliable and work as advertised.

But no matter how crappy, snotty, poorly MB assembles there cars, and I'm not saying they are, people will continue to buy them in droves. Some of the same people who're buying the W221 in it's first year are some of the ones who got pinched on the inception of the W220 with all of it's quality problems. And there are several in-house/independent studies that back up this.

But it has to be said again. The new LS, while said to be a greatly improved vehicle over it's predecessor, will not shudder the S alone. And yes, the marvel LS600hL will be a welcome addition to it's line, but it will not topple a S600. And we all forget that MB has so many different variants of the S that they too help push sales. Hopefully the LS won't be so one-dimensional this go round. It's going to take more than an Ultra pkg. to take on the S.

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