High End Luxury Cars

sv7887 · May 2006

Hi Everyone,
Diesel is a great technology. In Europe 50% of all new cars sold are Diesels. It's not a perfect solution, but a practical one to the current gas woes.

This talk about Lexus hiking prices is crazy. Lexus has always appealed to the "Objective" buyer. Oppressive price hikes would simply eliminate the Value that the LS has over the S Class. I would have bought a S Class a long time ago, had the LS430 been priced at that level.

Lexus has done the right thing, in gradually raising the price. The consumer doesn't take kindly to a sudden price hike. However, as Lexus has raised prices, the LS has gotten even better. People will pay for increased functionality.

Given that Lexus is trying to compete in Europe I doubt they'll be able to price themselves at the Germans level. I was just in the UK and had an opportunity to read some of their car mags..

Their view of Lexus is almost OPPOSITE of what we read in US Publications. Can you believe it? I read a brief review of the LS and they downgraded it on driving dynamics.

It seems to confirm my view that Lexus appeals to the objective buyer, and Mercedes, BMW to the subjective buyer. I don't think Lexus buyers are looking for something that will provoke emotion. On the other hand, Euro car buyers want something that provokes emotion. It's just a difference in perspective I think.

The LS460 looks great, I have no doubt it will be a winner. I wish they had made AWD an option on the gasoline car, though. At least for the US market it's an important option to have.

As for the L-Finesse theme, I'm not a big fan. While the LS looks great, the ES is a total letdown. The new car barely has any wood in it..The older car had a much nicer cabin to it. From a drivetrain perspective, I'm sure the new ES is a big improvement, but from purely a style perspective I find it disappointing.

My 1992 LS400 is nearing 100K miles. I replaced the tires with Bridgestone Turanza LS-V's and the car's ride is amazing. Quiet at 100 MPH and handles well.

The S430 hasn't broken down yet..lol..It's a great car, I'm really enjoying it. It's the kind of car where you deliberately take a longer way to go home. You really don't want to put it back in the garage. I miss some of the technology the Lexus had: Bluetooth, Backup Camera, and Parking Radar, but the S430 has enough toys to keep me occupied.

I'm watching the prices of the 2003 Jaguar XJ8 fall to the mid 20K range..It's a great value, especially since a lot of those cars have only 25-35K on them. It's the last of the timeless design style cars. My wife will really kill me this time if I bought one.

I got away with the Mercedes because of my son, but I can't blame the Jag on him!

-Sam

tagman · May 2006

lj - liked both of your posts. Always seem to agree with and appreciate most of your business analysis. On this one about the diesels, the increasing advantage that diesels will have is the bio-fuel trend that seems to be gaining larger corporate and political attention. The smoother and quieter and cleaner fuel-efficient diesels will definately yank in more market share, but again, this bio-fuel thing may end up to be much bigger than anyone would have thought. To be seen, but certainly an added potential advantage.

While I support both hybrid and diesel alternatives, I am now more and more leaning towards diesels, and as soon as the right product is offered I will purchase a new generation diesel powered vehicle.

I was not aware as your linked article pointed out that Honda's reliability of their diesel was so good when compared to the German's diesels. Impressive.

It's the waiting that is sometimes painful.

TagMan

oac · May 2006

OK, I'll explain it to you. The Japanese have a mixed success with sports cars, don't they? Gosh, the original Z was a smashing success only to become too fat. So the Mazda RX7 rekindled that fire, but only for a while cause they killed their own car as well. The Supra was a semi-lux sports cruiser, but never had the top notch handling it deserved. Honda could only come up with a Prelude, so there was NOTHING from then until the more recent S2000, which sells in small numbers. Mazda hit paydirt with the gutless but cute Miata, but ultimately never evolved the car. The Toyota MR2 project never had the proper corporate support. The NSX was one of the most revolutionary of all of the Japanese sports cars, but it barely sold. The replacement will likely be a V10 super sports car, but will it sell any better? The RX8 is goofy and the newest Nissan Z is still fat, although not bad looking. Nothing from Lexus at all, how 'bout that!

The SUV's were HOT HOT and it made enough business sense to capture the market. Interesting is the evolution within that segment. And it keeps changing. The little RAV4 is now bigger and more powerful and the Highlander will be replaced with a BIGGER one (maybe based on the new Camry). The FJ Cruiser is an unknown, because it was developed to compete with a vehicle that died during the FJ's development, namely the Hummer. It may possibly steal away ALL of that type of market and end up competing directly with Jeep. The Sequoia was hot until gas prices shot up because it is a gas-sucking V8 with seats that won't fold flat, but still a poor man's TLC. The 4-Runner is stuck in a time warp.

Basically, Toyota's SUV strategy is like this: "Circle the wagons . . . we'll surround 'em!"

You or I might not like the sports car to SUV ratio, but Toyota's bottom line sure does.

Been lurking for awhile and found this post of yours to be such an excellent summation I couldn't resist acknowledging !!! Pure genius, Tagman.... If you were on the Lexican side, we'd cream the German fans club all the time in debates on this board....

designman · May 2006

If you were on the Lexican side, we'd cream the German fans club all the time in debates on this board....

No way. We got my anchor man Merc. He goes yard with all of the batting-practice fastballs you Lexicans throw at him. Tagman's on our side. Hands off, buster!

;-)

ljflx · May 2006

Tag,

Still bullish? Personally I've never seen valuations this low in such a great economic climate. Market is badly oversold but I can see why. Bernanke needs experience, better public diction and he may overdue the rate hikes and oil remains too high. We need relaxation in one of those two items and then we should move up strongly again. I don't think we'd have had this late setback if Greenspan was still in charge or if it happened it would have been much milder in size and scope.

drfill · May 2006

Whatever. Tag didn't tell me anything I didn't already know.

My point was, did Toyota need another SUV more than a new Sports car? Bear in mind Toyota said we'll build one, or the other. Did they make the right choice?

With 6 SUvs, if you haven't got the market surrounded, you've screwed up! The 4Runner is already one of the top 4X4s, but with it's sales fading, was there really a pent-up demand for a 2-door?

Are full-on 4X4s still HOT, HOT? If they sell 70-80k FJ Cruisers, I'll agree with ya! I don't see that in my crystal ball.

Is the FJ some runaway train of hot press?

Or is a 2009 Camaro concept setting the auto world on fire?

DrFill

hpowders · May 2006

"We will cream the German Fan Club."

We certainly don't need any help.
We are not insecure as you Lexicans, with your voluminous posts skewing reality as you see it, as Merc1 has to constantly remind you.

We let the international sales figures and world-wide prestige of BMW and MB do the talking for us.
You can HAVE Tagman (no offence to Tagman intended) and with all his great debating skills, It wouldn't change a darn thing.

Lexus has a long way to go to match BMW and MB in any of the above.

Sorry, but that's just the way it is.

Given all that, I will be driving the LS 460 this Fall.
If I like it I may even get one, but that still doesn't change any of the above.

oac · May 2006

Still bullish? Personally I've never seen valuations this low in such a great economic climate. Market is badly oversold but I can see why. Bernanke needs experience, better public diction and he may overdue the rate hikes and oil remains too high. We need relaxation in one of those two items and then we should move up strongly again. I don't think we'd have had this late setback if Greenspan was still in charge or if it happened it would have been much milder in size and scope.

A little off-topic, but want to chime in here...

Len, we are in an economy that is, at best, at a standstill waiting for a shoe to drop. That shoe could either be higher interest rates that could put the skids to real estate market, or foreign govt dump of our currency. Then what ? Methinks the equity market is doing a head fake and pricing the weaknesses of the economy into the market. As an investor, I am going into CASH, putting one of my houses up for sale this summer and holding on to the cash for as long as possible. I am also re-arranging my stock portfolio to increase the money market proportion. Cash is going to be king in the 2007 economy. I'd not bet on the stock market.... methinks its on a long slow ride DOWNHILL.... Put another way, the Dow will see 10,000 before it sees 12,000. That's my bet, but I've been wrong before and lost a bundle back in 2000/2001 :sick: Not going to wait around for it to crash again... Learnt a great lesson in the last crash.

Now back to our regularly scheduled debates...

pat · May 2006

We're not going to get into who is insecure and what that makes them buy or not buy.

Please get back to the cars and leave the generalizations about the buyers at the door.

Thanks muchly.

ljflx · May 2006

OAC - If that happens you're talking about multiples of 12-13. I can't see it. The 2000 Internet bubble crashed because we had 25-30 multiples. Now we are at 14-15 when we should be at 17-18. Stocks are downright cheap right now. The fear is that another interest rate spike or two will mean the fed has gone too far and in conjunction with high oil prices will tip us toward stagflation or even a recession. But oil is much less important to the US economy now that we are service oriented. The Fed is the key and people don't have the trust in Bernanke that they had in Greenspan. That's one of the reassons the market has tanked here. i realize we've had a global market pull back but US markets have not risen the way global markets have the past few years.

tagman · May 2006

Still bullish?

lj - I'll tell you more tomorrow. I do have some concerns, but they haven't been bothering me enough to change ANYTHING yet. I am probably going to put some markers in place so that if the market reaches certain points, I will automatically take certain actions. What I want to determine is the percentages and which holdings I would sell if the market starts to look troubled. Also, I am not against carefully buying in times of troubles either, but I need to take a close look at the market situation and my own situation much more closely before I give you any specifics. I have an important breakfast meeting tomorrow actually with one of my closest advisors. If anything significant comes from this meeting, I'll let you know.

BTW, I couldn't help but notice that I seemed to be some kind of draft pick or something earlier in the forum. It was funny. Merc is still the best poster here, IMO, whether or not we all agree with him. He really is a talented writer who devotes a great effort to make valuable contributions. But, to me it is not a competition, and ALL the posters are valuable to the forum and I just genuinely appreciate the opportunity to share ideas.

TagMan

oac · May 2006

OAC - If that happens you're talking about multiples of 12-13. I can't see it. The 2000 Internet bubble crashed because we had 25-30 multiples. Now we are at 14-15 when we should be at 17-18. Stocks are downright cheap right now.

Still off-topic...

But its the fundamentals I am talking about... Call it the underpinnings of this economy - fiscal and monetary policies. Fiscally, we are in a mess... Monetary-wise, these interest rate hikes are just masking a deeper trouble from our fiscal mess... Think how our debt ceiling is now at $10 Trillion, our total debts have doubled in 5 years, our currency devalued by as much as 40% against some other currencies, oil factor, and interest rates ? All bad combinations.... About the only place worth investing in is defense (doh !), service, and energy (doh !). Many of these stocks are already priced in with high expectations. I am going to CASH, and that always works. At least if things go south, you can jump in and buy them cheap...

OK, I am done pontificating on the economy... Back to talking about HELM...

hpowders · May 2006

Please set these guys back on the road to HELM.

Also, let them know they can't time the market, that the market has been up historically 70% of the time, and they should be thinking 10-20 years, not 10-20 minutes!

Please let them know that when stock market panic has infiltrated the HELM thread, people like me will see this pessimism as an important buying opportunity in the making.

Thanks for your help!

hpowders · May 2006

"Merc is still the best poster here."

Your modesty is both touching and classy.

You both share that honor on this best of Edmunds' threads, IMO!

blkhemi · May 2006

I see in the very near future diesel and ethanol technology overtaking the hybrid fad. It makes commom sense: Diesel and ethanol technology are easier/faster to move to market, whereas hybrids take 2-4 years to develop(hence the total rebuild of HSD for the upcoming LS600hL and the differentiation of the Civic v. Accord IMA). Diesel technology is so readliy available that it seems unrealistic to think that diesel will not make a strong comeback in States.

I've been in Europe for the last 2 1/2 weeks and I drove a Jeep Grand Cherokee 3.2L CDI around. My first interaction with the car was it that it was so silent and resolute that I often had to wonder whether the car was turned on. I secondly wonder why we can't buy this powertrain( oops, sorry E320 CDI) in the states as it seemed even punchier than my HEMI-equipped Commander. It was a very refined and responsive powertrain and I'd be the first to buy them.

We also have a very reliable alternative fuel source that it is readily available: Ethanol. Corn grows like grass here in America, and I'm still in loops on trying to figure out why a country like Brazil can become completely fuel self-sufficient and we can't??

stevekilburn · May 2006

Doc, you are right on the mark again.

It seems like the problem confronting Tagman, syswei, hpowders and especially LJ is a generation gap crises.

I believe they or at least some of them are in their 50s and 60s or at the very least wise but not young at heart. These are old-school guys from the early boomer gen. or even earlier.

They are able to understand what we are telling them but their experience and memories are revolting in their minds.

In other words they are suffering from the 1992 mentality. Its 2006 now and its time for LS 460 to compete with S550 with prices matching A8/7 +/- $1-2K.

When I was in high-school LS was JUST introduced as were Acura and Infiniti so I do not have that heavy burden in my heart that Japan is all about cut-rate tin-boxes and germany is about performance/Luxury. Besides, the popular discourse used to be how Japan's turbocharged growth will eat us for Lunch!

stevekilburn · May 2006

I fully agree with you, if Lexus prices LS to S550 levels it will be BAD for Lexus.

LS should be priced against A8/7 NOT S-class. Got it?

There are no pure Objective and Subjective choices. Any attempt to make a purely objective decision will inevitably fail.

stevekilburn · May 2006

Just because I have not followed the rules a couple of times does not mean I should not speak up. Rules are rules. Guys this is not the board for FED and Honda and Ford and Mustang. Please take your wisdom to the appropriate board.

stevekilburn · May 2006

Diesel: I agree 100% with Lj, Tagman and everybody else on this one. Diesel Rocks and it will return to US in a big way, especially with that Iranian Monster out of control.

Hybrids: Its not a mature technology like diesel, so these far flung assessments about Hybrids are foolish. Moreover, you have to compare diesel with a diesel-hybrid not Gas-hybrid.

ETHANOL: It seems like a huge non-starter. brazil has extensively destroyed its ecological balance by switching to ethanol and large scale sugar-cane farming. Idiots! I just saw a documentary on PBS on how brazil destroyed amazon, (there was other stuff on Africa as well but not relevant here)

Our market is 17 MILLION VEHICLES and brazil is 1 million only. THINK ABOUT IT! how much corn we will need. Outrageous level of farming will be needed which will dramatically destroy the quality of soil and damage the environment forever.

Are you prepared for a Havoc? Then go ahead do ethanol.

For HELMs I personally believe diesel and diesel-hybrids will be the best.

Audi is reportedly making a diesel V12 for next A8, Guys grab those napkins before the drool falls on your keyboards!

drfill · May 2006

Yup, Lexus was making ad history. Infiniti was very busy confounding the public with it's message. And Acura was busy crafting it's "Fly under the German radar" market strategy.

The more things change......

Well, also back then, there was something worth watching on TV.

While we are all spreading the love, high and deep, like fertilizer, I would also like to anoint Merc as the one true Sin-Sai, the Sho-nuff, the Don, if you will, of all posters, not posers, or poseurs.

Thank you.

DrFill

hpowders · May 2006

Gee, Steve, I didn't realize being in one's 50's or heavens, even worse, being in one's 60's was such a severe handicap. Well at least we "are able to understand what you are telling us." That alone must be considered progress!

I hope you can find the time one day next weekend to visit Tagman, Syswie, LJ and me at the Edmund's Home For Senile Posters.
If you insist on bringing something, make it a Dagwood comic book. Nothing too complicated for us handicapped 50 and 60 year olds, okay?
Thanks, Steve for your understanding.

hpowders · May 2006

Spoken like a true hypocrite.

stevekilburn · May 2006

Those were the days..., I never got those Infiniti ads! I think Infiniti marketing bombed half the deal and the other half was the lousy flag-ship.

Its the flag-ship which established Lexus and I believe Infiniti will have to do something really spectacular for the next Q if it aspires to be global something.

stevekilburn · May 2006

:P

blckislandguy · May 2006

Gee, you're right. Only a boomer would have the full perspective. He would have seen the first Japanese cars as indeed "cut-rate tin-boxes" that would last maybe one winter in Buffalo before rusting out. Later he would have seen the slavish copying of American cars. He would understand that their high content level and a lack of many option packages was a function of logistics: when the plant is a long way away you don't want to offer too many choices. He would understand that sure they have come a long way since the early Datsuns he drove when he came back from Vietnam but still all in all the Germans have a tradition, a heritage. Kind of like a regimental tie. Someting that you just aren't going to duplicate in a 35 year spurt. But, he'll understand that for HELM buyers looking for a Camry-weld-the-hood shut experience, Lexus is the way to go.

hpowders · May 2006

I do believe you are wasting your time.
Consider the source.

stevekilburn · May 2006

With increasing globalization, the heritage factor has assumed a new role and is no more the dominant factor.

And yes the pace at which we are moving, 35 years is more than enough. I would say you can duplicate that success in 20 years. Which means in 2009, when Lexus celebrates its 20th, we will have a toast and to germans too, who have sustained such competition.

Benz churned out million+ cars from 1999 onwards and BMW followed that in 2004 and Audi is on the way to million mark in 2009. Who would have thought??? Its about GLOBAL OUTLOOK AND GLOBAL LOVE AND GLOBAL PASSION, GUYS WAKE UP, WE ARE IN A TINY VILLAGE AND ITS CALLED THE EARTH.

tagman · May 2006

Its about GLOBAL OUTLOOK AND GLOBAL LOVE AND GLOBAL PASSION, GUYS WAKE UP, WE ARE IN A TINY VILLAGE AND ITS CALLED THE EARTH.

Steve, you said you work for a pharmaceutical company? . . . You really should NOT take those drugs yourself!

TagMan

houdini1 · May 2006

17 million vehicles? Hell, there are that many in Los Angeles! What are you talking about? Maybe I am too senile to understand?

tagman · May 2006

I see in the very near future diesel and ethanol technology overtaking the hybrid fad.

Yes. Or even integrating with it, as diesel hybrid. The progress being made with hybrid technology might end up having been a very good thing as the diesel engine improvements can then be combined with the hybrid improvements, basically substituting the gas ICE portion of the hybrid with a diesel engine instead.

Diesel technology is so readliy available that it seems unrealistic to think that diesel will not make a strong comeback in States.

Absolutely agree. It is poised for a major advance that could start even as early as next year, but more likely should start in the next two to three years from now, as more product comes to market . . . and it will.

We also have a very reliable alternative fuel source that it is readily available: Ethanol.

Also, advances in bio-diesel fuel should coincide with the advances in diesel market share.

Good post.

I just hope that all of us old-timers will be able to appreciate all these technological advancements going on in the industry. It's just so complicated . . . almost as complicated as my remote control.

TagMan

hpowders · May 2006

Okay. Everybody.

On the count of 3:

Steve. What are you talking about?????

tagman · May 2006

Steve. What are you talking about?????

Steve. What are you talking about?????

hpowders · May 2006

All the reviews of the new Camry I have seen are positive about the car's improved handling.
Therefore, I don't believe it a stretch to predict the new LS will see improvement there too. Not a major deal but a significant step in the right direction.
I will find out for myself this Fall.
My 545 should get me through the door.

merc1 · May 2006

Designman and especially Tagman, thanks for the compliments!

hpowders - I'm literally in shock everytime I see this new Camry in SE trim, it really has a some swank to it. Dare I say that if I had a few HELM cars and wanted a relatively inexpensive and non-standout type of daily driver the Camry would make the short list with the new Passat. That is a very, very high compliment from me.

Steve - Have you ever written Lexus about your ideas? Seriously they will listen. I've written Mercedes many times over the last 15 years or so and I've almost always gotten a personal response, not just a form letter. Also, there is a S600 CDI (diesel) in the works for 2008 according to the initial buzz surrounding the new S-Class.

M

lexusguy · May 2006

All the reviews of the new Camry I have seen are positive about the car's improved handling.
Therefore, I don't believe it a stretch to predict the new LS will see improvement there too. Not a major deal but a significant step in the right direction.

Agree. Some reviewers have even called new Toyotas such as the V6 Rav4 "fun".

garyh1 · May 2006

1. Funny how everyone who believes Lexus should jump up the price of the '07 LS never bought one before, and the people who actually have bought one (or more) believe slow and steady increases are the way to go. As someone who bought a nicely equipped '05 LS (list $62,730) for about $57,000 cash, I am not interested in seeing a big jump, but would potentially tolerate a moderate increase. I imagine that Lexus would be more interested in the real world reaction of actual potential repeat-buyers whose business they don't want to lose, than in the musings of armchair theorists who want to talk about higher price=higher prestige, etc.

2. What is the price of a reasonably well-equipped 750iL or A8L versus the prices Len is predicting for a similarly equipped 460L? Is it really that much different? Or is this debate much ado about nothing?

merc1 · May 2006

Likely much ado about nothing if the prices LJ gave hold up. There is no reason to think they won't as they seem logical to me for a car as upgraded as the LS460 is compared to the LS430.

I think LS460L prices will likely match the A8L and come very close to the 750Li.

M

hpowders · May 2006

I realize this is heresy around here, but the reviews of the 2007 Camry SE 6 have been so positive, I plan on driving one also.

C&D, in a review of the SE 6, voiced the usual complaint it has with T/L, that the electronic nannies can't be turned off, but admitted that most folks wouldn't be tossing the car around like they do anyway.

If only the new LS was offered in a SERIOUS SE package!

ljflx · May 2006

"Likely much ado about nothing if the prices LJ gave hold up. There is no reason to think they won't as they seem logical to me for a car as upgraded as the LS460 is compared to the LS430.

I think LS460L prices will likely match the A8L and come very close to the 750Li"

Well that's the joke here Merc. Steve modified his argument at some point from the LS being priced at S levels to now being priced at A8 and 750LI levels. The initial and only real argument here was about the former and never the latter. The prices I was quoted have shown that the latter is where the car will be pegged. So Steve's rants are there simply for the point of ranting. We've shown agreement on price here - for a long time now - and he doesn't even seem to realize it. One can never go purely by MSRP anyway as one mfr. may have items standard that others have as options. But Steve doesn't ever take this into consideration.

IDOL - what's your take? Who really becomes the biggest star? All 5 finalists can be stars and I personally thought Taylor was the weakest of the 5. He won on his (Seinfeld's) Elaine-like dancing and personality. My bet is Chris gets into a band and that Paris, Katherine and Elliot outshine Taylor long-term.

hpowders · May 2006

Lisa Tucker had more charisma and personality than any of them, IMO.

tagman · May 2006

lj - meeting over . . . made some significant changes for now . . . here's the skinny . . . 40% US equities, 15% International equities, 25% fixed instruments, 20% pure sideline-ready cash.

If market drops significantly, I'll be BUYING equities, not selling.

Keeping both eyes on the Fed, and interestingly, one eye on the bird flu situation.

Looking at Wal-Mart again. Microsoft remains a long-term hold.

How 'bout you?

TagMan

hpowders · May 2006

Lay and Skilling guilty on combined 24 counts.
Hope they get the max. for each count.
My only regret is that these guys aren't 25 years younger.
Send 'em to Colorado with Moussari.

cyclone4 · May 2006

Hi guys! I have not been visiting this forum very much at all until the past several days. I see now that this is where the action is (Wow!).

Steve, you state on your post from yesterday that "Brazil has has destroyed its ecological balance by switching to ethanol and large scale sugar cane farming. I just saw a documentary on PBS on how Brazil destroyed the Amazon."

You are implying here that the Amazon has been getting destroyed due to sugar cane farming. That is not correct. The Amazon destruction has zero to do with sugar cane farming. Sugar cane is grown is Sao Paulo State and also to the north of Bahia State near the Coast. These areas are far from the Amazon. The Amazon has been getting eroded in order to make more room for soybean farming and not sugar cane.

Also, you state that we will need to clear more land here in the U.S. to increase corn acreage astronomically in order to make all the ethanol that we would need from corn. There is one problem with this statement. Who says that 10-15 years from now our ethanol will be coming from corn? We can make ethanol out of a lot of other products: switch grass, wood pulp, sugar cane, etc., etc.

ljflx · May 2006

Tagman - I'm about 50% on US equitis amd about 10% int'l. and about 15% cash. We're very similar. Microsoft is also a LT hold for me. I'm not in Walmart but I like it.

Idol - Lisa was also one of my favorites and she has plenty of potential. Loved Mandisa as well and will be interested to see if she gets some traction. I hope both do well. In summary I thought this years talent pool (top 7 or so) was deeper and more evenly matched than last years group but no one in this years group could touch last years top 2.

tagman · May 2006

Tagman - I'm about 50% on US equitis amd about 10% int'l. and about 15% cash. We're very similar. Microsoft is also a LT hold for me. I'm not in Walmart but I like it.

I am not surprised at the similarity. Just goes to show that our business perspectives continue to be on the same page.

BTW, where's the rest of the 25%?

TagMan

ljflx · May 2006

Fixed rate securities/bonds.

lopz · May 2006

Many of you in this forum seem very knowledgeable about HELMs, and as a 745Li owner I'd sure like to learn more. Yet most of the topic revolves around pricing. There are news out of the upcoming Z6, yet not a single comment on it. How about it?

blkhemi · May 2006

Tag: I wholly agree with the notion of integral diesel-hybrid technology, now with the proven reliablilty of new gen hybrid powertrains.

Steve: Audi has reportedly "scrapped" the V-12 for the A8(at least for our market) diesel idea in lieu of fortifing the ubiquitous 5.0L V-10 TDI with the low-sulfur/no particulate exhaust system similar to the marvelous MB Bluetec. It will reportedly one up the current offering with 400-hp(vs.310) and over 600lb-ft(vs.553) of torque powering through a new 8-speed autobox good for handling 750lb-ft of torque while being 29 pounds "lighter" than the 6-speed it replaces. A8 Sport models for '09 will have a DSG tranny, as well as the '10/'11 AMG-chasin' S8 with over 600-hp.

The diesel version of the A8 has tested above 30mpg, given it's incredible power, that's a huge accomplishment.

Merc: I read in Autocar last week that Mercedes is fiddling with the possibility of a S600 diesel. I wonder if this is the surprise that they've promised since it's release? DCX has reportedly given the green light to Chrysler to let their end of the business use the Bluetec 3.2L CDI. Good news indeed.

BTW: If MB holds on to their promise, there will be 7 variants of the S to choose from: S550, S600, S63, S65. Suspected future models for our side of the pond: S450, S(some kind of diesel), and a possible S350 towards the end fo the model cycle.

tagman · May 2006

BTW: If MB holds on to their promise, there will be 7 variants of the S to choose from: S550, S600, S63, S65. Suspected future models for our side of the pond: S450, S(some kind of diesel), and a possible S350 towards the end fo the model cycle.

I am suspicious that the latter three could end up being two . . . one diesel and one smaller gas ICE with their new stratified gas injection. Whatcha think?

TagMan

blkhemi · May 2006

I can expect the S450 to make it's way in for '08/'09, with the diesel models coming in this timeframe also. The V-6 S350 seems out of place in MB's recent push forward to once again be the driving force in the luxury biz. That's possibly the reason behind the one-year only S350 for '06.

MB is committed to converting all of it's gas engines to direct injection. BMW isn't far behind and Audi has been doing this for quite sometime. Toyota has also jumped in with the upcoming LS460.

One still has to wonder: What's going on in Munich? BMW is being very tight-lipped about the next gen 7-Series save for the fact that they've promised it'll be the sportiest and most comfortable in it's class, no huge departure for them. But this time they took shots. They personally called out Maseratti in saying that the Q-P will have room to worry. They also promise class-leading engine power and interior room in the iL models. There are some reports out in Germany that the V-8 will grow to 5.0L and put out over 400-hp and the second-gen i-Drive will be much improved over the current monster. And also the styling is said to become more classic BMW with those conservative lines that we German car lovers loved at one point. We'll see.

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