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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I couldn't care less about status either but there are plenty who do.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I'm sure you are right, but life is short, and I wouldn't waste my time with it.
    I feel sorry for those who do.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    That is not even close to being accurate Merc. The majority of what MB sells around the world are less expensive than the least expensive Lexus. The average vehicle price on the road is much higher for Lexus than for MB and BMW. Racing heritage is irrelevent to High End Luxury Marques. Honda has much more racing heritage than Acura, guess which of the two belongs to this forum if we have to choose one? On the other hand, RollsRoyce has not been part of any major racing event for over half a century, yet it's still the grand daddy of High End Luxury Marques. Price point and luxury content are what matters. Lexus fleet avearage surpasses that of both MB and BMW on both accounts.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    S class only accounts for a tiny per centage of all MB sales. Ford has a $150k GT that has a selling average price even higher than S class avearage, and has more racing crednetial and heritage than S class to boot. Does that make Ford a higher HELM than MB?? I don't think so.
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    The LS in my household get driven more often than the S. I am sure we all know the reason and what pissed my father off is S costs more than LS. S (RR too) is truly a show-off car only.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Do you think a golf bag would fit in the Cayman rear luggage compartment?

    I have heard that you can get two bags in with the drivers removed and placed separately. This could be with small bags though. I think you can get one decent size bag with drivers separate. Of course if this is important you will need to try it yourself. I use my other cars for golf so this was not a factor. I have a pretty big bag (Rodney Dangerfield Caddyshack type replete with pop-up beer tap ;-)) and will try it out soon with the Boxster just out of curiosity.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Tagman, thanks for that printer info. I have my research and leg work cut out. Will have to make sure the price/capabilities match our needs. Will let you know which way I go.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Lexus fleet avearage surpasses that of both MB and BMW on both accounts.

    Can you provide a reference? Thanks.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Tagman, thanks for that printer info. I have my research and leg work cut out. Will have to make sure the price/capabilities match our needs. Will let you know which way I go.

    You are welcome, and don't hesitate to ask more if you need to. I recommend that you visit the Xerox website. BTW, it also shows their Phaser line, in case you do not need to go with the full-blown print server connected to a digital printer routine.

    If you are interested, I'll keep you posted as well on the Lotus Elise. I intend to test drive it in late July or early August.

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Okay. Thanks. Curious to know if your golf bag fits in the Boxster.
    Don't snap any shafts!
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    looking at things purely from a US perspective, then might I suggest that Mercedes has taken a huge hit in "public perception". Numerous problems and an apparent almost denial of those problems from a customer service perspective would at least put Mercedes behind Lexus in the all important American perception. Just kind of playing Devils advocate here as neither manufacturer has any models that excite me.
    I would sight the boards here on Edmunds as my source.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    http://www.daimlerchrysler.com/Projects/c2c/channel/documents/829814_DC_GB05_E_K- apitel_01_keyfigures.pdf

    A/B class account for 21% of MB unit sales
    C class 33%
    smart 10%

    That's a combined 64% of MB unit sales that are less expensive than even the least expensive Lexus.

    Much of the 22% E class sold outside US are with small engines and at a comparable price/luxury level to the Lexus best seller RX.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    lexusguy - thanks. It seems that's an OLD review, BTW, and yes the car is MUCH more refined with MAJOR advances since then.

    Yeah, the only test they did of the base convertible was years ago before Tiff moved on to host Fifth Gear. If you're interested, here's a much more recent test of the Exige (elise hardtop).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGx1Au8Rh9c&search=Top%20Gear%20Exige
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    If you're interested ...

    IF I'm interested? I am definately interested.

    And THANKS for the link. Great video! The Lotus Elise and Lotus Exige are amazing performance cars. Unless I really dislike the car when I test it late this summer, I would expect to own one. The question then will be whether or not to wait for an even more-improved '07 at that point, especially considering that there were so many improvements made for '06.

    TagMan
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    So Lexus makes more desireable vehicles than Audi and MB? I find it quite strange that selling 10 year old SUV's, a underacheiving mid-size, and a 4-Runner-based midsize is "desireable". If you re-read my post 16334, you'll see the desire that Audi has in it's current and near-future line up.

    I'm done arguing the ridiculous and misinformative "HELM" thing with you and everyone else. The perception we(read: United States) have on Audi can't hold a candle to the outstanding support it gets around the world.

    Funny tho, you say that Lexus is more acceptable than Audi. Then why is it that it only sells 350-370k cars annually, as opposed to the 1M that Audi does? What you think about Audi here in the U.S. is the same thing someone thinks about Lexus across the pond, where it really counts despite the U.S. being the biggest car market as in Europe, EVERY luxury maker is there, except Lexus. You, Merc, and the others can argue until the cows come home about why Audi is 2nd or 3rd rated, but why is Lexus not with the rest of the competition in Europe?

    Moreover, the A8 is currently selling better in Lexus' mainland Asia than the LS. Interesting.....
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I'm done arguing the ridiculous and misinformative "HELM" thing with you (Doc)

    blkhemi - that's a good idea. ;)

    TagMan
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Let's just stick to the cars - the high end cars - and stop talking about each other, please.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    If they weren't so eager to agree with me, and write Front Page articles, reflecting my views, this debate wouldn't linger.

    Another misquote? I certainly didn't say Lexus is more acceptable. But more ACCEPTED sounds close.

    More desirable? Probably.

    If you are waiting for me to disagree, you might want to have a seat. :)

    BTW, Audi also sells better in Timbuktu, Parts Unknown, South Central Dudleyville, and Planet Krypton. So please don't understate Audi's excellence.

    Say it loud, say it Proud! :)

    DrFill
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Only eight months after the European premiere of the new S-Class, sales of the sedan have topped 50,000 units. “The new S-Class has been met with great response worldwide, and our flagship vehicle claimed its position as the world’s best-selling luxury sedan immediately following its market launch in September 2005,” says Dr. Klaus Maier, member of the Mercedes Car Group Management Board responsible for Sales and Marketing.

    link title

    50K units ain't nuttin' to sneeze at.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Just a little FYI . . . I sat in the Aston Martin Vantage this evening, as a friend of mine just picked his up on Saturday, and he showed it to me today. He wanted this car so badly, he had a deposit in place for two years. I don't know how necessary that was to get one, but he wasn't taking any chances. Gentlemen, this is a truly beautiful car with powerful, yet elegant and graceful styling, both inside and out . . . something most all of you would appreciate.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    link title

    Need I say any more?

    TagMan
  • reality2reality2 Member Posts: 303
    Audi as a global company is run extremely well. A recent financial analysis by Price Waterhouse and another financial services company (name escapes me at this time) looked at the VW-Audi Group. This article appeared in the Wall Street Journal a while back. Anyway, the analysis was quite fascinating. Simply put, Audi accounts for 80% of the entire VW-Audi Group's capital value. Consider that Audi makes only 16% of the Group's vehicles. This is quite incredible if you think about it. Furthermore, the article stated that Audi is keenly independent and yields the "quiet power" within the Group. Audi Czar Dr. Martin Winterkorn is viewed as the "Wunderkind" of the German car industry and has considerable influence when he needs to use it. The report tacitly suggests that Audi should separate itself from the VW Group all together. Winterkorn's eyes are on the US. Audi of America is going through major management changes to enhance itself in the the US through various top hirings and change in marketing and PR positions and major dealer changes. So, the Inside Line article is timely considering what is going on now inside AoA. However, we Audi enthusiasts have always known that AoA has lacked proper marketing and PR abilities. It is almost as if AoA wants to hide itself from the world. However, Inglostadt isn't taking that BS from AoA any longer. This change takes time, but change is coming fast.
  • reality2reality2 Member Posts: 303
    I didn't know China, all of Europe, Mideast, many parts of the US were timbukto. But, hey what ever floats your boat.
  • reality2reality2 Member Posts: 303
    Most Comparos have placed he A6 ahead of the 5-Series. The 5-series has scored at the bottom of most comparos in US car magazines not to mention European.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    In the case of MB you are rewarding them for tremendous inefficiencies in their production process and bad cost controls overall. They have to get those prices because they'd be bleeding to death without them. In CFO land this is the ultimate no-no. On the other hand you are penalizing a brand that is lean and mean and can price aggressively. In CFO land this is another major no-no. All things being relative MB has had to substantially reduce its mark-up over its costs to produce its cars in the last 15 years.

    All very nice and what not, but largely irrelevant to this discussion. No one cares as to why a car is priced the way it is, nor do I dispute what you're saying about MB's fixed costs. Everyone knows that Germany is the most expensive place in the world to build a car and add that that a non-Toyota-like way of building them and poof(!) here come your huge sticker prices. You're right, but that isn't the focus of this discussion at the moment. We were debating who is a HELM and who isn't.

    But all things are not equal and you cannot penalize anyone that has big cost efficiencies and a big build cost advantage because they are using that as an advantage in price. IMO a HELM is a market perception issue and a lux feature issue.

    Sure I can because cost isn't the only issue here. Lexus is synthetic, it is a name plucked out of thin air during a 1987 Toyota board meeting. It lacks the sense of occasion, the heritage, there is no sizzle to the nameplate, nothing to read about pre-1989.

    I can see the issue dr. fill raises clearly because in the US Audi lacks the first one but has all, and then some of the second one. I certainly consider Audi a HELM - I just don't think they will ever make it big here. It's not going to be overcome by marketing either. It's an image problem and it will take a phenomenal US investment to overcome.

    I see the issue and the point that he is making, but my point wasn't that Audi is above Lexus, it was that neither Audi or Lexus is on the same, equal level as Mercedes and BMW. I agree it would take a miracle in today's market to get Audi to the volumes and presence that other HELM's enjoy, but anything is possible. In 1992 they were at 12K units a year and really on the brink of leaving the U.S. market, despite what Audi management said at the time, they were.

    This whole status thing with Lexus changes by the hour. One minute we're told the Lexus equals MB/BMW and yet in the next we're told that MB/BMW's higher status helps them sells more cars at the top end. I mean it can't be both. Either Lexus is equal to Mercedes/BMW in the prestige/status game or they aren't. At 17 years of age and only one true high-end vehicle I say they aren't even close in overall position, but they are still highly regarded for sure.

    VW doesn't have the pockets to make such a major distribution investment and the competition is way too fierce. To see that latter point just look at Lexus vs VW in sales. Lexus outsells or nearly outsells the cheap brand and before too much longer will outsell VW and Audi combined. It's also why the Phaeton was such a waste. That money should have been put into Audi for a greater UD dealer network and a much better looking dealer network. All the marketing in the world is worthless without a foundation investment and Audi lacks foundation in much of the US. Hence it's perception will always be lacking. Much of it's sales is highly regionalized to the northeast and over time more and more AWD offerings from the big three in the group will cut into that market share.

    Again I agree with most of this, but the reason I brought up VW was because of the instance by OAC that a HELM is sedan not a "marque" as the thread header says. If we're going by what a sedan costs and the category then that puts VW in, though we all know that the VW brand isnt' a HELM. This inclusion of a brand based on one car was the flaw in that theory. That is what I was pointing out to Oac. Again, I agree with much of what you've said here.

    I've never had a handling problem with the LS and despite all the MB handling comments on the board over the years I find that there is virtually no difference between an S-class and an LS in handling and agree with syswei that the S has gravitated more and nore toward the LS in the last few years.

    Impossible because if that were the case the S would have worse handling and the car has only gotten better in handling especially since the 2000 model vs the old tank 1992 S-Class. All cars have gotten quieter and more refined over the years, its called progress. There is no way the S has move in Lexus' direction while all the time the LS was becoming basically a copy of the S-Class' design with the LS430. When you ape an entire bodystyle that is more than "moving in a direction" of your competitor. The S-Class always put luxury first even back in the day when it was only an S-Class and a 7-Series so saying the S has moved closer to the wannabe S, when the wannabe LS got it's mojo from the S in the first place doesn't make sense to me.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Nice post, and I agree, but Lj does have a point about Audi and the way it has been run/marketed at least up until this point. I've always thought that AoA didn't have the full attention of their German bosses when you look at how they've hap-hazzardly introduced cars here in the past. That said I think it will take a lot of time and some serious effort to get Audi up to BMW/MB sale volumes and overall standing with U.S. luxury car buyers. Audi just doesn't make it onto the average luxury car buyer's shopping lists, that is the main problem because I think if more people actually drove an Audi they'd buy one.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    You, Merc, and the others can argue until the cows come home about why Audi is 2nd or 3rd rated, but why is Lexus not with the rest of the competition in Europe?

    Well as you know I'm a huge Audi fan, but my point with the Doc was that if Audi isn't a HELM neither is Lexus. I know that doesn't sit well with you and reality, but I promise it will be the only time I say such a thing about Audi. :cry::( Car for car I think Audi has the best looking lineup of any luxury car maker. They don't have a questionable or funny looking model in the bunch, IMO.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    50K units ain't nuttin' to sneeze at.

    No it isn't. The only thing left is to see how it is holding up. Not sure if the 07 would have been included in the recent JDP surveys. Consumer Reports will report on the new S when???

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    German upmarket hegemony, built on speed, innovation said unassailable In Europe

    M
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    That’ll trip a couple of Lexican circuit breakers for sure. I’d like to read the book but at first impression one of the authors seems a little blind to the changing landscape and future. And judging by his apparent rabid demeanor, I wouldn’t be surprised if he is forum-posting car yenta, maybe even one of us ;-)

    Tagman, of course I want to hear about your Elise venture.
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    I am obviously not qualified to discuss what makes a HELM. Many of you are amazing experts in this area since you are constantly researching this topic. But I personally don't care what is and what isn't considered a HELM. Coming from someone that is probably a typical "joe blow" on the street who is able to afford these vehicles, who gives a flying leap about heritage, history (length of time in the market place), status, etc. The question is, in comparing the MB-S series, the BMW high end (whatever it's called, 700 series I think), and the LS, what has been a better car the past several years, taking everything into consideration (luxury, build quality, dependability, etc., etc.)? I think that the unequivocal answer to this question is the LS. You will notice that I did not even bring up the fact that the LS costs about $10-20 thousand less. That makes it even more of a winner. Now, what about the future? Is this going to change? I very much doubt it. With the gorgeous LS460 coming out and more importantly the LS600HL, I don't see how things are going to change much. The LS will still be the better vehicle, period. Isn't this the most important factor?
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    The LS will still be the better vehicle, period. Isn't this the most important factor?

    And he lobs a soft, high pitch right over the plate...

    (There's opening a can of worms, and then there's opening a can of worms, throwing in some spaghetti, and giving it a good stir).
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    who gives a flying leap about heritage, history (length of time in the market place), status, etc

    While not the number one factor in the US, it is in fact one of the TOP priorities in Europe, and explains Lexus's horrible sales there. Further it is wrong to completely ignore this factor here at home in the states. To say "who gives a flying leap" is quite a disregard for "status" particularly, which does play a role in the sales process of upper-end luxury vehicles. Whether it should or should not is a different question, but like it or not. it does play a role. Status and prestige are factors that clearly assist the Mercedes more than the Lexus, and that is likely why you have attempted to disregard them.

    The question is, in comparing the MB-S series, the BMW high end (whatever it's called, 700 series I think), and the LS, what has been a better car the past several years, taking everything into consideration (luxury, build quality, dependability, etc., etc.)? I think that the unequivocal answer to this question is the LS.

    Of course, this is an ongoing debate on this forum and always will be. Firstly, you threw out the heritage, history, status and prestige factors that are clear winners for Mercedes Benz, and now you fail to mention STYLE, which has been largely deficient in the Lexus LS when compared to the Mercedes. This gap may close a bit more with the arrival of the new LS, but the new S-Class is still the better-looking and better-styled vehicle, IMO. Classier in all regards.

    For Lexus it still gets down to reliability statistics, and that's the only thing that Lexus truly has over the BMW and Mercedes, and it is likely that over some time, we will see that gap narrow somewhat, although I think it is safe to say that Lexus will most likely retain their leading position in that category.

    With further regards to the reliability statistic that is in Lexus's favor, realize that it is only one factor that luxury car buyers consider . . . and when it comes to all the others, such as style, prestige and status, heritage, and the importance of vehicle performance, Lexus is second-fiddle to Mercedes and BMW in every one of them. Sorry to pop your balloon, but that's just the way it has been so far, and the way it still is.

    TagMan
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    in the door sooner and say that cyclone 4 would be in my mind a fairly good representation of the average car consumer, and Lexus buyer. No offense intended I promise, but those kind of people [forgive me while I step off of the generalizing cliff] tend to be less of a traditional car enthusiast. At least that has been my experience. My point is that the nuances of how a car drives ie steering feedback, transmission quickness, overall road feel, is of less importance to them than is a buttery soft seat, light steering, and a disconnected sort of road feel.
    Lexus seems to understand that the only thing the average American knows about performance is dinasour aged Nascar racing, and fast in a strait line performance. They are marketing geniuses.
    Lastly, I will take a bit of Mark's advice and say that it's a good idea to test drive all the cars in the above mentioned [and hotly debated] HELMS category to make a truly educated, and thorough decision.
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    I understand your points, especially about style. Yes, I agree that the MB has had better style. What other qualities has it had that have been superior to the Lexus? Please don't tell me it is faster, more powerful, etc. After a certain point, who cares how fast or how many horses it has? The question I asked is, what has been a better vehicle with all factors combined. I honestly do not see how anyone can argue that it has not been the LS.

    I also do not care what the Europeans think. They are "brain-washed" in my opinion. Yes, yes, some will say that we here in the U.S. are "brain-washed" toward the LS. But again, the facts are that the LS is a better car for the reasons I stated on the above post. I am trying to use logic here. What difference does it make that the MB has been around for 100 years. So what? That in itself does not make it a better car. And I couldn't care less about status either. I keep coming back to which is a better car with all the factors combined. The factors that count to me include: reliability, luxury, comfort, technological enhancements, safety, environmental concerns, and style. Of these, the only one that the MB has had over the LS has been style. That will also narrow with the new LS.
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    World's most expensive lemon?
    Dealership says $1.7 million car won't run and maker Mercedes-Benz won't fix it.
    June 15, 2006: 9:58 AM EDT

    NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) - The owner of a Los Angeles car dealership is suing Mercedes-Benz, its parent company DaimlerChrysler and other affiliates, alleging that a $1.7 million car purchased in 2004 wouldn't run for more than 10 blocks without problems.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Your description of the typical Lexus buyer:

    those kind of people [forgive me while I step off of the generalizing cliff] tend to be less of a traditional car enthusiast. At least that has been my experience. My point is that the nuances of how a car drives ie steering feedback, transmission quickness, overall road feel, is of less importance to them than is a buttery soft seat, light steering, and a disconnected sort of road feel.
    Lexus seems to understand that the only thing the average American knows about performance is dinasour aged Nascar racing, and fast in a strait line performance.

    Wow! You really think that the typical Lexus HELM buyer is no more sophisiticated than the typical Buick buyer? Because that's largely what you have described. I'm not so sure of that, but if so, that explains a lot.

    TagMan
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    I would like to think of myself as much more sophisticated than the typical Buick buyer. I despise Buicks.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Look at your factors one by one.

    Mercedes has a history of die-hard dependable cars that has been compromised in recent years. Still, it's not like the cars are in the shop all the time. This reliability statistic has been WAY overblown, but it is true that Lexus gets this one. The winner - Lexus.

    Mercedes is clearly more luxurious. The LS is good, but the materials seem a little flimsier and cheaper somehow, and their application and the execution of them still falls short a bit in comparison to Mercedes. The winner - Mercedes.

    The interior ergonomics and seats are superior in the Mercedes. The S-Class Drive-Dynamic driver's seat is particularly better than the Lexus drivers seat. The winner - Mercedes.

    Technological enhancements - Certainly Lexus also has technology, but Mercedes has been a pioneer and leader in Pre-Safe, Collision impact capabilities, Distronic Plus Radar Cruise Control, Tel-Aid, Advanced Ergonomics, Night-View Assist, Electronic Stability Program, Superior braking systems, Parktronic, Dynamic Rear-View Monitor, Active Curve Illumination, Comand System, and the more typical Bluetooth, Voice Control, and Navigation technologies. The winner - Mercedes.

    Safety - This is a slam dunk for Mercedes, but one small thing should be noted. Superior performance is generally an attribute of safety. Overall, no discussion necessary. The winner - Mercedes.

    When it comes to the environment, it is true that Lexus will introduce its hybrids, but even that technology is not without its questions, such as battery disposal. The cleaner-burning Mercedes diesel engines that are forthcoming will also make an environmental contribution, given the measureable improvement in emissions, particularly overseas, but please don't tell me that the global environment is not of concern and that only the US environment is, because that's one area that we are all connected. The winner - unknown.

    The style question isn't one at all. You have already admitted that Mercedes styling is superior, and it is. The winner - Mercedes.

    Overall, the S-Class is superior to the LS.

    Add back into the equation the factors of heritage and status and prestige, and PERFORMANCE, and it is a slam dunk for the Mercedes S-Class.

    TagMan
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    honestly didn't mean that to sound offensive, but after all what does Lexus really offer over Buick besides better reliability, a softer seat, and better technology. But I can't really say better driving dynamics. I guess it seems like to me that is what Lexus is, a more modern version of Buick. I'm not making a judgment on sophistication, or lack thereof. Just my opinion on what are the priorities of the Lexus minded consumer vs the German one. And again, just MO
    It comes down to [me anyway] driving dynamics vs non driving dynamics. I used Nascar as an example, what does turning left and flooring it, then turning left and flooring it say about dynamics. Very little IMO, just as Lexus has very little in that regard. Again, Lexus does other things well which appeals to their customers,just not to me and the average German car fan.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    the characteristics of a successful HELM and performance is completely left out of the equation with an emphasis on "reliability", it's pretty obvious where this person is coming from.

    Unfortunately, that Lexus USA success translates into dismal failure in Europe, where the true success stories continue to be MB, BMW and Audi, in that order.
    Go back and read Merc's thoughtfully-provided link in post # 16384.
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    Just to play devil's advocate, Tagman, but many of those categories are very subjective. While most would give the styling nod to MB by a country mile, I am one who thinks (at least from the pics) that the upcoming LS looks better than the new S (not the old LS, though). I don't want this to start a long back-and-forth discussion, as it is only MHO.

    Luxury, seating, and current technology are buyer-dependent/subjective. Is there really a gap between these two vehicles (tech-wise) in their current (new S) and soon-to-be (LS) iterations? If you add engineering innovation and history, yes, MB gets the nod.

    I agree that MB gets a category win in safety, but I don't consider any vehicle in the HELM class as a "slam-dunk" order of magnitude better than any other.

    Other categories would include cost (although that is often discounted by many) and prestige (one win apiece).

    Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that the LS is the better car, but I don't believe it is so cut-and-dried. As I have no intention of ever owning either one (at this point in time--although I don't see that changing), I don't have much of a bias.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Tagman, that post of yours was in-your-face candid. Me thinks we are on the verge of the 110th MB vs Lexus Super Bowl. I don’t recall you ever being the starting QB in one of these.

    ;-)
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Mercedes is clearly more luxurious. The LS is good, but the materials seem a little flimsier and cheaper somehow, and their application and the execution of them still falls short a bit in comparison to Mercedes. The winner - Mercedes.

    Which MB is this ??? Have you even sat in an LS recently ? Go sit in the new IS250 or 350, and check out the quality of the material in the lowest Lexus vehicle, then multiply that by a factor of 10 to get to an LS level quality. Please.... MB seats are hard, and not supple enough, IMO, which gives the nod to the LS.

    The interior ergonomics and seats are superior in the Mercedes. The S-Class Drive-Dynamic driver's seat is particularly better than the Lexus drivers seat. The winner - Mercedes.

    Interior ergonomics... Yikes ! No one would put the MB over the LS in ergonomics... No one. Next !

    Technological enhancements - Certainly Lexus also has technology, but Mercedes has been a pioneer and leader in Pre-Safe, Collision impact capabilities, Distronic Plus Radar Cruise Control, Tel-Aid, Advanced Ergonomics, Night-View Assist, Electronic Stability Program, Superior braking systems, Parktronic, Dynamic Rear-View Monitor, Active Curve Illumination, Comand System, and the more typical Bluetooth, Voice Control, and Navigation technologies. The winner - Mercedes.

    This is an easy one.... Clearly the LS is the winner. MB's problems in recent years has been ELECTRONICS, or a poor integration of the myriad of chips in the car. This is NOT an area MB can compete against the LS. The latter shines here as well. All the techo wizadry in these cars are similar, except for one thing - seemless and flawless integration... LS wins this one going away. Next

    Safety - This is a slam dunk for Mercedes, but one small thing should be noted. Superior performance is generally an attribute of safety. Overall, no discussion necessary. The winner - Mercedes.

    You must be referring to the old slab-sided S-class of the '90s. Today's MB is not any more safer than the LS. I'd say EVEN. Next

    Overall, the S-Class is superior to the LS.

    Obviously NOT ! MB wins outright on style (against the current gen LS, that is), safety is about even, but technology, reliability, ergonomics, and luxury are all LS... And finally, why do you suppose the LS is the undisputed #1 LUXURY car sales in America ? If MB wins on all these areas you give to them, and has a higher price, won't MORE people buy it ??? Smoke that one, buddy...

    Do you need a refresher course in MB v LS or what ???
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    Not making a judgment on who is a more sophisticated customer. Merely pointing out what seems to be the difference between the Lexus vs Audi BMW Mercedes customer IMO. The Lexus fan will generally not make handling a factor, If so, they would not be considering Lexus to begin with IMO.
    I agree that styling and status are subjective so can't really put those in my argument.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    oac - It just goes to show how different many of us see these cars.

    Regarding your #1 in sales thing in AMERICA only, don't forget that the Ford F-150 is AMERICA's favorite vehicle.

    S-Class is the Heavyweight Champion of the WORLD in sales for this category we are all discussing.

    All things considered, I'd have to say that the LS price is still a big reason to pick the LS, but the S-Class is so much more car, IMO.

    TagMan
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    TagMan, first of all, I very much respect your opinion and I enjoy your thoughtful posts. I guess I tend to disagree on some of these points:

    Luxury - To me this a toss up.
    Technological enhancements - Also a toss up.
    Safety - Not sure, but I'll give it to MB. Personally, I think they are about equal.
    Reliability - Lexus
    Style - MB
    Environmental concerns - I think Lexus is the winner here.
    Fuel economy - I did not mention this above, but Lexus is the winner here I believe.

    Thus, seeing it point by point, it is a close call, but I would give the nod to the LS. I don't see a clear cut winner in my opinion. It depends on which of the points are considered more important than others. Now if you throw in the price tag, there is no longer any question.

    The main reason I responded so strongly above is due to this stuff about history and heritage. I don't think that matters at all. It is a matter of "what have you done for me lately". I do believe that with the new generation of LS in a few months, Lexus will be a clear cut winner since the above points will go more in the favor of the LS (especially the LS600HL).
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    Well said Oac

    But I advise you not to raise this issue again with him on LS. When it comes to Lexus he is almost always irrational and uses most baseless and uninformed arguments.

    The wise among us know these people who keep parroting "heritage, heritage, heritage"... like a never ending puppet.

    I say china and India have a 5000 yr heritage. Does any one give a sh** when buying products from these countries.
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    Oac,

    You obviously made it more of a slam dunk for the LS as the winner than I did. You are obviously much more familiar with the idiosyncrasies and features than I am. Since I was not sure about the electronic problems on the MB, I did not bring that up with TagMan. Also, perhaps that goes along with the general title of reliability.

    "Thank you for your support"!
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The "premium" brands of BMW, Porsche, Audi and Mercedes-Benz, and for the time being Range Rover and Volvo, are superior to mere luxury cars like Lexus, Infiniti, Cadillac, Jaguar, and Rolls Royce

    Ok, there are some MAJOR problems with that sentence. I'll give the author BMW, Porsche, and Mercedes. Audi and Range Rover, maybe. But Volvo?? Are you kidding me? Who in their right mind thinks Volvo is a "premium" brand, above Jaguar and Rolls Royce!?

    They go on to imply that Volvo is above Aston Martin and Maserati as well. Aston Martin and Maserati have heritage in spades, both as manufacturers and from their racing programs. How many Le Mans wins does Volvo have?
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