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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I had no problem deciding on my 545 even though CR gave it the dreaded black mark for reliability. Given the performance, it was a risk worth taking.

    Yes, poignant, that’s one of the ten commandments of the German-car buyer. Screw the risk, tempt fate, go for the surf. A shark attack is less likely than a lightning strike. It can’t happen to me, and if it does so what? A coward dies a thousand deaths, a brave heart dies once. In other words… I got your reliability right here ;-)

    I spent a glorious day at the US Open yesterday. I’ll spare you any detail except this. One of the things that made the day was that cell phones were not allowed on the course. You were scanned at entry points and had to check the phone in where it was put on a shelf in a paper bag in a kiosk. At first I worried if it would somehow get stolen or lost, then figured I would be better off if this happened. Until yesterday, I had totally forgotten about the idyll we came from not too long ago and thought to myself if a genie emerged from a lamp, eliminating cell phones from existence would be one of my wishes. I don’t expect you to believe that but you get the point. I really can’t stand them and they were conspicuous by their absence. Not a single nag, nary an idiot to be seen making love to his clam shell or heard barking into it for the entire world to hear.

    I’m thinking about going again today. The weather is perfect and the cell phones… I mean stars… seem aligned. We’ll see, the crowds are also overwhelming.

    Too bad Tiger isn’t around but as one writer put it, his recently deceased father was probably honored more by him missing the cut, a reminder of what’s really important.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Until yesterday, I had totally forgotten about the idyll we came from not too long ago and thought to myself if a genie emerged from a lamp, eliminating cell phones from existence would be one of my wishes.

    I absolutely 100% agree!!

    Hope you do get to go back today - how fun!

    Um, totally off-topic, yes I know. :blush:
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Nice read. You must be spending too much time writing copy for ads, lately. ;)

    BTW, Happy Father's Day to all of us Dads. King for a Day. Truth is . . . my family is the best gift of all, and I am truly grateful.

    So far . . . I've been informed that I should relax by the pool, with the wife and kids ready to serve all of my needs. Hmmm, let's see now. :D

    TagMan
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Yes, I should have said that, too.

    Happy Father's Day to all the fathers we have participating here. Enjoy your day!
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Thanks, Pat.

    Pat, how about a little something about yourself . . . without going beyond your comfort zone.

    TagMan
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    ...the silly comments about Lexus being upscale Buick make you look bad. if it was that easy GM would have upgraded Buick or Cadillac a long time ago..

    LJ, if that's your best defense, then we may as well not even play the game. It's easily known that the average blue-haired customers shop both Lexus,Buick, and Caddy. And that thing about upgrading Caddy, hmmm.. As it stands of now, Caddy's lineup makes Lexus look "bad". The CTS(especially the V) continues to be successful, and the glorified Escalade runs circles around the LX in terms of technology and sales(for the same money interestingly), and the STS V8 is a better performer than the GS430(dare I even mention the STS-v?). And pound for pound, I don't rate the current LS430 any higher than a DTS, despite the FWD, it too is just a cruiser, something that it's fine doing and not posing as anything else. Oh and I've sampled a '06 DTS w/Performance Pkg. and found it to be better than the Lexus with the Euro option and the interior materials weren't that far off of the LS430's mark and the silence about the same for about same money with more standard features. Again the LS is better how?? Turn back a couple pages and you'll see all of the Lexicans preaching about the "supremacy" of the LS. Ah, relia.......

    So in that saying, again, besides the "R" word and supposed wonderful craftsmanship and build, what does a Lexus bring to the table? The flatbed-truck thing was great, even hilarious, but mind you both my 760iL and S65 AMG were both delivered to me on a flatbed for the sake of not adding mileage to the vehicle. It's called customer service. So because the MB was on a flatbed, it was broken. On a Sunday, where was it going? Luxury dealers don't open on Sunday's. So it automatically was inoperable because it was on the truck? That goes to show how "bad" you look when you'd sink to this level to prove a misguided/misleading point.....
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    These Lexicans tend to make a joke about things that are so obvious to the rest of us.
    I think the shrinks call that a "defense mechanism."
    Helps 'em to avoid uncomfortable reality, I guess.

    You are correct. The LS brings absolutely nothing to the table aside from its dependability. It will always be the favorite vehicle for the nearly embalmed, blue-haired set.

    I drove it twice right down to the obnoxious gated shifter, slippery wooden steering wheel and uncomfortable seats.
    I would hope the 2007 version would be an improvement, but I'm not holding my breath.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Plain pathetic. The Shield of Defense.

    BTW: I read that article on the 530i. What a bunch of baloney. Why bring a 6-cylinder to a V8 fight? I'd rather them not even put it in the test.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Because they never forgave BMW for Bangleizing a proven design and adding the iDrive interface, which incidentally any 8 year old can learn to use fluently in about 10 minutes.
    Hence they rigged the comparo under an "MSRP price constraint." The whole point was to punish BMW.

    If you are a performance oriented car mag. don't give me this price constraint BS when in every issue they devote so much ridiculous space to super-exotics that most readers cannot afford.
    They couldn't include a $60k 545 vs an M45?
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    As New Yorkers would say . . . Flatbed Shmatbed.

    Bottom line . . . what's the difference even if it WAS a vehicle going in for service? Who gives a flying ----?

    Gosh, I suppose we had better call all the editors of the car rags, let JD Powers know that things could be even WORSE than they have suggested, inform Consumer Reports that the Mercedes reliab----- has now plunged even further, and warn ALL prospective buyers of an S-Class that with the purchase of the car comes a deep relationship with a flatbed truck driver AND the Mercedes service manager. Give them the flatbed truck driver's cell phone number and beer preferences NOW so they are adequately prepared for all those calls they will need to make if they somehow make the terrible mistake of choosing the S-Class over the LS.

    :D

    TagMan
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    These Lexicans tend to make a joke about things that are so obvious to the rest of us.
    I think the shrinks call that a "defense mechanism."
    Helps 'em to avoid uncomfortable reality, I guess.

    You are correct. The LS brings absolutely nothing to the table aside from its dependability. It will always be the favorite vehicle for the nearly embalmed, blue-haired set.

    Howard, your writing style does get obnoxious sometimes. What exactly is all these groupie mentality and derogatory speak for ? Enjoy your 545 and let others be. I am getting real tired of your kind of posts which are just so negative....
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Howard, your writing style does get obnoxious sometimes. What exactly is all these groupie mentality and derogatory speak for ? Enjoy your 545 and let others be. I am getting real tired of your kind of posts which are just so negative....

    oac - relax . . . let Howard be Howard. He's part of what makes this whole thing what it is.

    Next thing you know you'll be taking a vacation from Edmunds again, and frankly, I like your posts too much and I wouldn't want that to happen. ;)

    now . . . back to the pool for a while. Ah-h :shades:

    TagMan
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    As it stands of now, Caddy's lineup makes Lexus look "bad". The CTS(especially the V) continues to be successful, and the glorified Escalade runs circles around the LX in terms of technology and sales(for the same money interestingly), and the STS V8 is a better performer than the GS430(dare I even mention the STS-v?).

    And pound for pound, I don't rate the current LS430 any higher than a DTS, despite the FWD, it too is just a cruiser, something that it's fine doing and not posing as anything else.

    Oh, how I wish you would think these posts through before dropping them like 3rd period French!

    You seem impressed by CTS sales, but it is behind ES330/350 sales, and will always be. Having sat in a CTS (but refusing to soil my palate drivind one), anyone who would buy that over an ES deserves the resale value!

    The Escalade competes with the GX and the LX, and I haven't seen anyone shame the GX in anything. The 'Slade may be fast, but get a power tilt wheel and some Auto-up windows before you come knocking on that door! Both are better off-road, and more luxurious.

    Didn't the 'Slade just lose another comparison to the Mercedes GL?

    The Deville? You said a mouth full when you said "pound-for-pound"! The last time eye sore it compared to the leaders, I think a Volvo beat it out for drivability and appeal.

    Should I call that post a rough draft of what you really wanted to say?

    If Audi can't knock on Lexus' door, you KNOW Caddy will keep walkin'!

    So Cadillac is your horse now? Just going around the 2nd-tier this week?

    Audi is good! Don't bail so fast! They'll be alright.

    DrFill
  • killerbunnykillerbunny Member Posts: 141
    And pound for pound, I don't rate the current LS430 any higher than a DTS, despite the FWD, it too is just a cruiser, something that it's fine doing and not posing as anything else.

    You sure sound like a GM salesperson.

    And pound for pound, I don't rate the current DTS any higher than a ES350. Oh, wait, DTS is no where close to the ES350 in terms of luxury, performance, and sales.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Tag, I hear you. It simply gets tiring to hear the kind of tone in his posts... He needs to give it a rest.

    The truth be known, MB, Buick, and Jaguar have the OLDEST buying demographics not Lexus. Blue-haired driving LS ? Look at the MB owners for blue-haired moneyed people. I'm 42 and have been driving an LS well into my 30's. I am no blue-haired floosy trying to relive my youth driving V8-powered sedans.... Neither is LG, or LJ, or many LS owners here. The IS and GS have very young, upwardly mobile buyers, much as the 3 and 5-series. The C, E and especially S-class are populated by middle-aged to older buyers, who believe in MB mystique and want the badge. My very good friend, an MD, just bought an E350. He could not be disuaded to even consider any other car. He simply wanted an MB for the name. I will say, he represents the typical MB buyer....
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    so obnoxious and untruthful, why do you feel you must spend so much time refuting it?
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Its the tone, Howard... Just keep it down and less pungent and I'll be cool with it. You do make many good and excellent points, but you do stray occassionally... ;)
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Pool break . . . :shades:

    When evaluating the typical buyer for any marque, it is a generalization that is not even close to black and white. There are so many shades of gray, and exceptions to what is typical that it's absurd to even consider all of it, unless you are an ad agency doing your best to target your advertising.

    There are plenty of young buyers of Jaguars and Mercedes. Success just generally comes at a riper age, that's all, but not as a rule. And when the very young get money, anything goes. Generally, as the success ladder is climbed, the buyer moves up from the Corolla to the Camry to the ES to the LS, not necessarily in that exact sequence, but you get the idea. Or from the C-Class to the E-Class to the S-Class or SL, but again not as a rule.

    These are just typical scenarios, and AVERAGES. Fact is, most people are not average, just a part of what makes up the average.

    It's like the average temperature. Most days are actually hotter or colder. Mixed together and then divided we come up with the average temperature that is seldom seen in real life.

    Someone here recently said that statistics are like bikinis . . . it's not what they show that counts . . . it's what they cover up. I liked that saying and remembered it, but which one of you guys said it?

    Anyway, get the point?

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    And pound for pound, I don't rate the current LS430 any higher than a DTS, despite the FWD, it too is just a cruiser, something that it's fine doing and not posing as anything else. Oh and I've sampled a '06 DTS w/Performance Pkg. and found it to be better than the Lexus with the Euro option and the interior materials weren't that far off of the LS430's mark and the silence about the same for about same money with more standard features. Again the LS is better how??

    Better how? Hmm, that is a tough one. Let me see if I can think of anything. For one thing, Lexus doesn't reskin 10+ year old designs and call them "new". 275hp out of "just" 4.6L? Wow. Sounds suspiciously like the northstar that was in the Deville, doesn't it? That GM 4-speed autobox sounds an awful lot like the one in the Deville also. The LS460 will be packing twice as many foward gears as the DTS. The DTS doesn't even come standard with actual wood in it. Please. It can't even come close to competing with the LS430 (a 2001 design) and the LS460 will just make it look like that much more of a relic that should've died 10 years ago. The DTS is better than only one car, the Lincoln Town Car, and that's saying very, very little.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Someone here recently said that statistics are like bikinis . . . it's not what they show that counts . . . it's what they cover up. I liked that saying and remembered it, but which one of you guys said it?

    Ehm... that would be moi !
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Ehm... that would be moi !

    yep . . . it soytenly wuz.

    TagMan
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    Would there really be any diference between the current Lotus, and the next one??This one may blow you `out the the water`, but have you ever given any thought to a Morgan? I know I know they aren`t alike, just a question....Tony
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Phil, I’m sick. This beats Norman. Eh, Phil's the man. I bet he ain't afraid to buy cars rated with CR's black dots. Nope, he ain't afraid of that friggin' flatbed.

    ;-)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    The man just doesn't know how to play conservatively.
    Couldn't hit the driver all day and with 3 of the toughest holes left, all he needed to do was hit 2 iron off the tee just to place it in the fairway.

    Phil is truly an enigma. I don't know what he was thinking.

    Wonder if he drive a car like he plays golf.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    It's so puzzling. He played conservatively throughout the tournament and it worked. Then, poof!
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Would there really be any diference between the current Lotus, and the next one??This one may blow you `out the the water`, but have you ever given any thought to a Morgan? I know I know they aren`t alike, just a question....Tony

    If by the current one you mean the '06 and by the next one you mean the '07, then it is not yet known how much difference there might be. The '06 was a big improvement over the '05, but it is too early to tell if the '07 will offer much of an improvement over the '06. Certainly the '07 would not likely be worse, so it stands to reason that there is little to lose, except waiting for about 60 days.

    Morgan is certainly an interesting line, but I would not be a player for one. The Aeromax, like the Aero Eight makes use of BMW's 333-HP 4.4 naturally aspirated V8 with 331 lb-ft of torque. And it's plenty fast. Maybe a collector would buy a car like that.

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    You've got to feel sorry for Colin too.
    Man did he screw up #18. Thought he was going to pull it off.

    Phil looked absolutely inconsolable in the clubhouse. Not much Amy could say.
    He wouldn't grant NBC an interview. Quite understandable.
    I almost know what that feels like- kinda like after Oac laces into me after one of my abrasive posts. ;)
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    Yes I mean the 06..I just fortunately happened to see the car when I was getting my car repaired from hitting a rubber tread....It would seem that there would be very little to improve from the Lotus I saw...Mr Shiftright mentioned the Lotus a year or so ago and as he usually responds to a bmw 7 question, may be a good source for you. The reason I mentioned Morgan is that they rarely if ever change their body style, and it would seem that Lotus should also not change, which I think would then help hold the value--furher it may be possible to get a better deal on an 06...Tony
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    May be the first time an Aussie has won?

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Yup. Greg Norman the last Aussie with a chance to win, tied after 72 holes with Fuzzy Zoeller in the 1984 US Open but lost the next day in the playoff.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Tony - I see what you're saying about the body style. Probably not much change expected for '07, but the '06 added the LED lights and improved the interior quietness and comfort, and added some convenience items. So . . . depending upon what we learn about the '07's, I'll make a decision at that time.

    TagMan
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Boy you really can't handle Lexus at all. Your posts are reaching the point of absurdity now. I honestly can't even respond to that one as it's such a joke. Glad LG did it though. You are going to have Lexus breathing down the necks of the Germans for the duration of your life and the heat is about to get real serious. When the media starts accepting Lexus more and more it's going to get a lot rougher to deal with. Even the auto rags may start jumping on the band wagon. So accept it and move on and please, please give up trying to lump Lexus in with Buick and Cadillac. You really look bad. I'm almost feeling sorry for you now.
  • reality2reality2 Member Posts: 303
    First of all this is a comparo from '03. Since then Audi has launched its new A8, MB its new S-Class, and BMW its refreshed 7-Series. The A8L has been the king of the hill in more than 90% of all comparos in the last two years and has been voted easily the best in its class by countless publications. Motor Trend literally "wet its pants" when bestowing top honors on the A8L in last year's comparos. So, at top of the HELM group has honestly been the Audi A8L and very much deserved. It continues to baffle how all of you try to dismiss this, when the A8L is easily the best in its class. The build quality and everything else about it Top Tier and beyond.

    PS> Congratulations to Audi and Audi Sport for it 6th 24 Hour of Le Mans crown in the new millenium in the last 7 years (Bently was powered by Audi by the way)...and the first turbodiesel in history.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Desperate times call for desperate measures.

    DrFill
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    C&D put current A8L in 5th place, behind the LS (1st place, ho-hum), Jag's XJ, the 7, and some other car.

    This was a late '04 comparison.

    And Automobile Mag just put it last in a comparison against the new S and the 750iL.

    I like the A8! But let's calm down, and keep one foot firmly planted in Reality, k?

    Haven't seen the MT comparison, but C&D does the best comparos, and is the best mag in the States.

    I will check that out doh!

    DrFill
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    We were talking about the merits of Bose systems a few posts ago and some people thought that Bose was better at marketing than building high end audio systems. Should anyone doubt this, check out the posts at the Chev. Tahoe 2007 forum. Apparently there are several different Bose systems used in the new GM 9000 platform SUVs, some are installed without features that they are advertised to include (e.g, background noise volume compensation; dash mounted sub woofers, etc.), and there are some unhapy campers.

    You know, it shouldn't be hard to design a great audio system for a vehicle. The designer knows where people are going to be seated and they can't move around.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    That's a win, but let's not put it in the Hall of Fame just yet. Those aren't the class leaders by any stretch.

    DrFill
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    blckislandguy - You are so right. Who in their right mind would want a Bose system in their car, given the choice?

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The thing about General Motors that has bugged me for years is the way they so obviously provide the bare minimum in their vehicles. One close look and it's no wonder that Toyota and Lexus are kicking butt. The idiots at General Motors have the success of Cadillac because this is the one line that they actually build with their latest and greatest. It's not rocket science. They give it all to Cadillac.

    Toyota and Lexus are so mainstream, it's scary. Such a broad appeal. A huge threat that is going to get much bigger. From General Motors, Cadillac can't do the job alone. The lower lines are totally lost. Ford is also lost and dizzy it seems, and Chrysler may be the last hope for the American auto.

    TagMan
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Car buyers' median age by brand:

    Division Median age

    Rolls-Royce 62.9
    Lincoln 62.8
    Buick 60.8
    Mercedes 58.7
    Chrysler 56.4
    Mercury 55.1
    Cadillac 53.4
    Jaguar 49.8
    Lexus 49.4
    BMW 46.1
    Ferrari 45.6
    Hummer 45.6
    Acura 45.3
    GMC 44.4
    Saab 44.4
    Pontiac 43.4
    Porsche 43.4
    Dodge 42.9
    Chevrolet 42.7
    Honda 41.9
    Toyota 41.9
    Infiniti 41.6
    Mitsubishi 41.3
    Volvo 40.3
    Ford 39.7
    Land Rover 38.9
    VW 38.7
    Jeep 37.6
    Nissan 35.1
    Mazda 34.6
    Suzuki 33.2
    Isuzu 32.7
    Subaru 31.7
    Saturn 30.9
    Hyundai 29.8
    Kia 28.1

    Of the brands we usually discuss on this board, the clear number one choice of Senior Citizens seems to be...Mercedes!

    source article
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    An indication of the greater WISDOM :P

    TagMan
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I see....Buick buyers are wiser than Mercedes buyers?
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    Steve, let me echo Tagman's kudos for an excellent post. I have criticized some of your previous writings, so it is important to recognize the good ones as well.

    I was hoping you had it in you, and you obviously do - when you want to be positive instead of just incendiary.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Definitely makes the cheese more binging!

    Seems they lumped Scion in with Toyota's numbers, as Scion isn't listed, but Isuzu is.

    Looks like Lincoln customers have all died, and weren't driven out.

    Volvo sports a LOW number! Definitely would expect an older, more conservative, loyal buyer for them.

    LandRover, Porsche very low too.

    Lexus stays on the right side of 50. Mercedes is old-money.

    DrFill
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Good one, but it's actually due in large part to economics as well. There should be two lines on a curve. One for wealth and the other for age. The lines would then
    converge and intersect at places on a chart. The Buick driver would have greater age and lower wealth than the Mercedes driver, for example, and THAT would be the REAL reason.

    TagMan
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Seems they lumped Scion in with Toyota's numbers, as Scion isn't listed, but Isuzu is.

    Must have lumped Mini into BMW demographics as well...

    Looks like Lincoln customers have all died, and weren't driven out.

    Those Ford Grand Marquis, Victoria, Continentals, are truly for the real blue-hairs...

    Lexus stays on the right side of 50. Mercedes is old-money.

    No kidding.... Lexus is new money, while MB is old money indeed... If you are middle-aged, there is not much to lust after MB for, except when you get to its upper-tier cars/roadsters/AMG variants... And even then there is so many choices out there for the buyer. Personally, the only MB my heart desires is plain ol' E55, my own rocket machine and I'd dare Howard to challenge me anytime, anywhere.... Give me that car, and I'd be a happy camper indeed :):):)
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    of the Lexicans, you can bash me in all you want, but the truth is in the puddin. I have my opinions exactly the same way you put Audi as not a/semi HELM. You may search for many arguements to ascertain Lexus' cred, but many people both here and abroad know the truth. And Doc, I see you're back on your Audi kick. Admit it, you want one so bad it makes your dentures clatter(lol).

    The fact of the matter is that I'm still content on what I like, just like most of the G-car fans here. You like to ride, I like to DRIVE. No biggie, just differences of preferences.

    I too am awaiting the LS460 as it should finally address what most people find lacking. But by then, Germany will have moved on even further. But undoubtedly the LS will remain popular, and hopefully the car will enjoy new company in the younger tech set with addition of the LS600hL, which will probably be the most techno car(it'll probably make the 7 look like an Atari) in it's class until the new 7/A8 arrives.

    There, now you have it. I'm not against the car. But it can't sit high above on the pedestal amongst it's direct competitors based on the merit of a few strengths. I think the LS460 will change the way we view the car all together, both the Lexican and G-car fans..
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    It's not too hard to recognize that ALL the numbers on the charts are averages, anyway, so if you AVERAGE the ENTIRE chart itself, the economics of the chart reveals itself. The younger buyers drive the cheapest cars, and the older buyers drive the more expensive ones. Additionally, there should be a breakdown between the young rich and the older rich. Very different and it affects the outcome.

    On average, a Lexus can be afforded earlier than a Mercedes. It's not that complicated.

    TagMan
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    The fact of the matter is that I'm still content on what I like, just like most of the G-car fans here. You like to ride, I like to DRIVE. No biggie, just differences of preferences.

    Ride v Drive, eh ? I believe I do DRIVE all of my cars fairly regularly. I also do hitch a RIDE with a friend or business associate once in awhile.... Is that what you meant, BlkHemi ?

    BTW, what will be the difference b/w driving an A8L and driving an LS430 ? Both have four wheels, four doors, a steering, powerful V8 motors, 6 cogs, etc... The A8L is plush, longer wheelbase, beautiful interior, and a tad slow compared to its peers. The LS is plush, shorter wheel base, beautiful interior and ergonomics, and as fast as its peers, even with the smallest displacement. Excessive road noise, and high NVH ain't fortes for HELM cars. All of these HELM cars have similar attributes with small differences - marketing, brand, and perception - in the buying public domain.

    Let me answer my own rhetorical question about A8L v LS430: mostly suspension/wheel setup. Remember, HELM owners mostly don't care about skidpads and all that other mushy stuff :)
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The thing about General Motors that has bugged me for years is the way they so obviously provide the bare minimum in their vehicles. One close look and it's no wonder that Toyota and Lexus are kicking butt. The idiots at General Motors have the success of Cadillac because this is the one line that they actually build with their latest and greatest. It's not rocket science. They give it all to Cadillac.

    Ford is arguably just as guilty. Neither of them can make a modern, smooth and refined 4-cyl engine. Ford skirts around this by having Mazda do it (and practically everything else having to do with cars) for them. GM instead just gives it the old college try, and has the raspy, buzz-box ecotec, like something Kia would've used 5 years ago.

    While Ford's 3.0L OHC Duratec is ancient, its 4.0L OHC engine is from the paleolithic era. Same goes for GM's "3800" OHV! 6. Both loathe to spend money on any kind of modernization unless its absolutely necessary. At least Cadillac gets a reasonably competitive platform and engines for the CTS and STS. Lincoln is even more "yestertech" than Buick.
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