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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Volvo sports a LOW number! Definitely would expect an older, more conservative, loyal buyer for them.

    I'm not really that surprised by Volvo's showing. They get most of their sales from the S40 and S60, which are more affordable and generally aim at a younger crowd than most of the conventional luxury brands.

    I think Infiniti has the most impressive number.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Maybe you'd like to list all the innovations MB has brought forward since 1989 ? And stack them up against Lexus' in the same period... Let's see who wins...

    Sure, it will easily be Mercedes-Benz. Lets see since 1989, Mercedes had done stability control, active roll-over protection (something Lexus has no clue about on a 60K SC430 while a VW Bug has the same feature as a 95K SL550), brake assist, curtain airbags, just to name a few. The only innovation Lexus has brought to the table is hybrids and that was done on Toyota buyers first to test it out. Lexus doesn't innovate squat, they wait for Mercedes and all the rest to do it.

    Pls include well-integrated into the list.

    Everything I named above has been well integrated and test over and over in the real world and it works, so much so that every other luxury car company around today uses it. Mercedes-Benz the innovator, period. Lexus don't do squat in that area.

    Do you recall your post commenting on how many electronic features MB are removing from their newer cars just to reduce the electronic gremlins afflicting them ? And that was only circa 2005, or thereabouts... If you don't recall, I can find it for you.... its right here on this HELM board.

    Of course there was an article from a MB engineer about this, but again you missed the gist of the story by a country mile. Mercedes did remove unnecessary electronic functions from their cars, not the entire removal of any one particular system. A lot of pre-determined settings and other things that customers wouldn't understand unless they read the manual were removed. Things dealing with pre-sets for the sunroof and things like needless features in the Comand system. BTW, that is you that doesn't remember what you wrote a while back, not me.

    Obviously you are wrong here. For starters, the affluent class has EXPANDED globally in recent years. Many more people can now afford to own/lease luxury cars, and you see the evidence all around you, and in luxury sedan sales growth.

    Obviously you don't know what you're talking about here; this doesn't apply to every single person in the luxury car market. 86K is still 86K and 58K is still 58K. Not everyone leases either.

    Secondly, a car like MB with so much more attributes than its competitors should be selling in droves, despite its higher price (heritage, class, features, performance, etc).

    Well the S-Class is, but at 90K a pop it won't and can't last forever, there aren't that many buyers out there at that price point to keep sales at the current level forever. Again, prestige/status doesn't mean anything if you don't have the money to buy the car that has it. I don't see what is so hard to understand about this. If price didn't mean anything they why the hell does Lexus consistently low-ball the entire class with the LS? They do this to add a PRICE ADVANTAGE to their resume.

    Besides, its not like most S-class buyers pay cash for a $90K product. They mostly lease.

    Stats please? Facts, not speculation. What percentage finances the difference or buy with cash vs. leasing?

    I don't suppose that if I can pay $900/mth on an "inferior" LS430, I will be easily scared to pay $1200/mth for a "superior" S500.

    You would if 900 bucks a month was already a reach, and you have no way of knowing the entire world's financial situation. Again, not everyone leases.

    Real-world pricing/leasing knocks your argument down, Merc1.

    Common sense obliterates yours because you don't seem to be able to either produce the numbers about who leases vs. buys or understand that never every luxury car buyer leases in the first place. There are folks right here on these boards that will tell you that they buy a car like this and keep them for a long time, these folks don't lease.

    Finally, MB is priced higher BCOS ............. its cost structure is higher, not bcos the car is better.

    Yeah sure, that must by why people still pay more for MBs and while Lexus can't even get more than merely competitive in more than 2 segments. Makes sense. If Lexus were so much better wouldn't they be the king of every segment they compete in? Wouldn't the American consumer see this stunning Lexus superiority by now? Oh, you'll say that they're the best selling luxury brand, while they pedal ES/RX vehicles at price under 50K while the bulk of MB's lineup is price above (sometimes way above) 50K. Yeah that is an apples to apples comparo.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Let's ask this again: What exactly do you guys constantly harp on as "performance" ? is this about suspension setup, steering and/or road feedback, speed, or what ?? You also add "handling"... Is the MB better at handling than an LS ? And sayz who ? Is the MB a better performance car than the LS ? Sayz who. The last comparo of record was the MT Dec 2003 report for MY2004 releases. The LS430 won that comparo, while the S430 came dead last... or close to last. And pls note that the S didn't come last despite its better performance against the LS....

    If you have to ask OAC then I really don't think you'll get it. Seriously. The LS430 I drove keeled over at the mere thought having to corner or change directions on the course that LEXUS provided. Granted that previous S500 was no BMW 7-Series, but the car remained flatter, the steering has more feel and a Benz has always felt rock-steady at speed. These are things that Lexus doesn't seem to want to do with all the of the LS models up to this point. The seats in a Mercedes are more supportive, the LS430 seats in particular are appallingly flat and church-benchish. Its all that about the steering, brakes, seats, stability in a car like the LS430 vs. the S-Class, A8 or 7-Series that germancarfans talk about here. Ask the ones that have recently bought an S-Class or A8, Tony and Sam, they'll tell you exactly what I'm saying having owned both cars. Performance isn't just a straight line which is what I think a lot of Lexus fans seem to think here with all the constantly rattling off of 0-60 times, especially since they aren't going to drive like that anyway, its silly really. Performance is the whole package, something Mercedes admittedly doesn't do as good as BMW, but does better than Lexus.

    I guess its easy to always throw the "performance" and "handling" shpeel out there as things German cars are always better than Japanese cars... It's simply become an acceptable fact to be announced everytime whether its actually true or not.

    It is, but you wouldn't see it that way because how a car stops, steers etc. is seemingly lost here if the numbers don't put the German car ahead of the Lexus. Just because a car might put up better numbers in certain tests (especially handling) does not mean that the car feels natural doing those things. Neither a Lexus or a Mercedes is a BMW, but a MB is closer than a Lexus is when it comes to the S-Class and the LS. No one saying the S-Class is a sport sedan.

    Note: There was a time when Cadillac had tuned and worked on the previous fwd Seville to death, getting it to the point where it could outhandle a E-Class or A6 and could hang with a 5-Series through a slalom, but in the process it would shave all the tread off of its tires and the body control was gawd-awful. Numbers only tell part of the story.

    I have yet to read of an LS that tipped over taking a corner way too fast bcos its handling was terrible.

    Ok, you've lost the plot with that one. Modern cars don't "tip over" unless you've done something terribly wrong, especially a German car or any other car of this class. I said the LS430 I drove at the Taste of Lexus felt like it would tip over, not that I could get it do that on that course, but that feeling doesn't lend any substance to the LS being on equal dynamic footing as the Germans in this class. It isn't.

    Does the LS430's 278HP not best the S430's 275HP ? Always.... Put a Z-rated shoe on the LS with the Euro suspension, and pit it against an S with dynamic suspension and the crap on it, and let's see which car outshines the other.

    Old news and to add insult to injury Lexus dealers know their customers don't care about handling because a LS430 with the so-called "Euro" package can't even be found. Talk about an answer to a question no one is asking! Until Lexus can produce the car you'll never know, but there is nothing to indicate the Lexus would win over a ABC equipped S-Class, anyway this is all old-news and we'll have to see who the new S and LS stack up.

    Hmmmm ! The likes of JDP, CR, etc are mere nuisance in the industry then, eh ? If buyers and auto execs don't care about what these companies provide, why do they even exist ??? They must not serve any need in the business, right? I'll let you answer that one....

    For the indusrty of course they matter, but again you missed the point. My point is that obviously it isn't the holy grail like Lexusfans make it out to be otherwise no other brand would be able increase sales or get a new product off the ground with such a bad rep. The previous S-Class was trashed soundly in these same surveys for years, yet the new one is selling like hotcakes, obvously not every cares about and worships CR/JDP resports like Toyota/Lexus fans do. Range Rover and VW buyers really couldn't care any less.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    As this comparo shows, the LS430 was weakest in skidpad grip shorn with all-season tires in 17" gab, compared to the German cars with upgraded suspension and 18" Summer tires (in sport gab). Not particularly apples-to-apples.... but like I said earlier, all you need is to put same 18" on the LS and with its Euro suspension pit the car against its comparable S, and let's see who wins that "performance" test.

    Until someone test a LS430 setup the way you're talking about (and time is running out) you have no way of knowing what the LS430 will do.

    What remains a mystery is how easy it is for many people to simply believe the perception that the LS has poor performance cos its luxury-biased.

    Then you aren't getting the meaning of performance here. The LS430's body rolls (leans) too much for it to feel as secure the S-Class. The LS430 has a too-light, almost completely detached steering with no feel even compared to a Mercedes. The seats are too flat to even entertain mildly aggressive driving, honestly they're very Buick-like in that regard.

    It does everything so well and effortless that makes you think it couldn't be that good....

    It does everything except drive with a sense of authority, it is too much of an isolation chamber to win over the Germancar crowd that likes German cars for their nuances. I didn't even hear the engine and generally Eurocarfans like to hear the engine at least a little. Yes the LS put up good braking numbers, but they complained about the pedal, that is the difference there and in other areas between a Lexus LS and the Euros in its class. Numbers only tell part of the story. The Euro suspension LS is a rarer car than the VW Phaeton.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    CR had this car blacked-out from engine to trans to electricals to even the comfort level, which was interesting as the car was quite comfortable, ahead of all Germans in '01. What they don't tell you is that for every "eventual" prob they think the car will have, they'll mark it out. Check every single European car tbey test and it tells the story of bad electricals.

    I'm starting to think that CR is even more full of it than I originally thought. Just looking at the dots for the 2005+ SLK it seems that the car is much improved compared the previous model with only 2 half black circles I think, yet they can't recommend it. One of the black marks was for body rigidity! Its a convertible! Though Mercedes makes some of the world most rigid convertibles, they are still are convertibles. I meant to see what they listed the SC430 in body rigidty. If had a red circle then obviously they're as clueless as the buyer, in this regard because body rigidty has been a constant complaint about the SC430 since day one.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Its bcos contrary to the perception being thrown out here, its actually the Germancarfans that constantly harp on RELIABILITY..... How many Lexophiles point out reliability, relative to how many Germancarfans do ?

    I can't believe what I'm reading. Reliability has been the selling point of the Lexus since day one on this board. Lexusguy just spoke on reliability of his 2 LS vehicles. If anything Germancarfans mention this because that is all we hear from camp Lexus, reliability and sales. These are thrown up anytime a hole is found in the Lexus armor. Whether it be styling, performance, safety, lack of technology, we see "but they're selling and they're reliable". You've got to be kidding if you don't see this OAC. You just hinted about reliability in regards to my post about MB and electronics. Hilarious! :P

    In the same vein, pls reduce the worn-out "performance" issue of the S vs the LS. As many of you have agreed, most HELM buyers are not concerned with skidpads or slalom numbers, so why harp on it ?

    Nope, because performance is as part of the Germancar vernacular as reliablity is a part of the Lexus vernacular. True most buyers aren't going to race or slalom these cars, but at the same time real buyers right here that have owned both cars can tell you the difference and that difference is partially what draws certain buyers to German cars in the same way the promise of supreme reliability draws Lexus buyers in and keeps them. This about the LS and its performance being equal in your mind is because you're simply looking at 0-60 time and a bunch of numbers while being completely oblivous as to how these cars go about putting up these numbers is most telling - you don't understand what is meant by performance. Think of this way: A CLS55 AMG (you saw the video right?) can put the same or nearly identical numbers in most performance tests as a BMW M5 or a S550 can do the same against a 750Li in certain areas, but the BMWs are better at doing it. They don't roll (lean) as much, their brake pedals are firmer, steering firmer, better feeling etc. etc. This is why the more powerful IS350 can't cut it against the weaker 330i. On paper the IS350 destroys the 330i, but in the real world the control and poise isn't there. Regardless if the IS350 can put up the same braking or slalom numbers and outright stomp the 330i in a straight line it doesn't "outperform" by the definition of performance used by Germancarfans. The LS is the same way compared to a S/A8/7-Series in that order.

    Lastly for this post this about the LS and the S-Class is a highly-inaccurate. The LS430 has never beaten the S-Class as a whole, only the S430. A LS430 has never beaten a S500 and the one time they did meet in a U.S. magazine back when the LS first came out, MT put the S500 over the LS430.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Where exactly did anyone say that? The silly comments about Lexus being an upscale Buick make you look bad. if it was that easy GM would have upgraded Buick or Cadillac a long time ago. The moment I see a comment like that is the moment I know I'm dealing with a a person who can't handle Lexus' success. As for the IS - they are buying the success of the brand's quality and reliability and assuming it's in the IS.

    It is said here all the time by the Lexuscamp. Lexus is just "better" with no reason as to why. What do the founding Lexi like the ES and LS really have over a Buick other than rwd and and of course a better quality of build? Seriously whether or not the question makes me "look bad" a real answer would be nice. No, I'm not saying that a Lexus isn't superior to those GM cars, but I'd like to hear why you think they (the car not the dealer and what not) are.

    A ES350 is a much of a Lexus as the LS430 is and it certainly is as good as the GS for what Lexus buyers buy them for. Seriously why would anyone shopping for a Lexus buy a GS over a ES or even LS430 unless they need more room as in the case of the LS? I really would like to know this from you because you've spoken so highly of the LS and besides the room what does it really give you over an ES? The concept (reliablity, lots of beige leather and isolation) is the same.

    For eons MB's story was bullet proof reliability, rarely was performance and MB ever mentioned together until the last 10 years when MB moved more in that direction.

    True, but this is where the heritage part comes in becuse Mercedes was know more for innovations than reliablity as Toyota/Lexus fans know it today. Unlike Lexus, Mercedes' story included that about their reliablity, but it also included innovations. I mean look at the things they've introduced to the market that EVERY car in production uses now. That alone was worth its weight in gold. Mercedes was also known for their racing victories too along with performance LJ. That about performance having only come up in the last 10 years simply isn't true and is sure sign of someone not really familiar with the brand. Mercedes bigger cars back in day are what created all that autobahn high-speed talk. A 1986 560SEL would do 140mph and could get 60 mph in 7.0 second flat, which was fast for that time. The only part of Mercedes performance resume that has been improved in the last 10 years is how they handle, not much else because a lot of their cars were always powerful and fast. Just because you've only heard performance and Mercedes mentioned together only recently doesn't mean it hasn't always been there.

    Mercedes' reliability was so stellar because of all the other European cars of the day were much worse and anything American was just junk. When people say this I find it funny because MB's peers of the day were BMW/Audi/Jaguar, not a reliable one in that bunch back then so of course Mercedes looked as though it was not of this earth. Of course when the Japanese moved the bar beyond Mercedes and Mercedes made some mistakes in the 90's this problem got worse, but I seriously doubt a Mercedes-Benz was ever like a modern day Toyota in reliablity.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The truth be known, MB, Buick, and Jaguar have the OLDEST buying demographics not Lexus. Blue-haired driving LS ? Look at the MB owners for blue-haired moneyed people. I'm 42 and have been driving an LS well into my 30's.

    Truth be really known that survey was about the brand, not the individual cars. Though you'd likely be right again, but most folks with 90K for a new S550 are going to be a big older. Driving a car like the LS while in your 30s? Clearly you're the exception and no where near the median age for a car like the LS. It says old man more than any other car in this segment just by looking at it IMO.

    He could not be disuaded to even consider any other car. He simply wanted an MB for the name. I will say, he represents the typical MB buyer....

    Now that is logical isn't it? See that type of comment is really telling. Now I guess all MB buyers see nothing else good about the car, but the badge. How rediculous is that? I don't think we want to get into what we all think the typical Lexus buyer is going by the posts here? Way too much of a loaded subject. Anyway, your friend kinda reminds me of your position on Mercedes, but the exact opposite.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Of the brands we usually discuss on this board, the clear number one choice of Senior Citizens seems to be...Mercedes!

    I thought you had to be 65 to be considered a senior citizen? I bet that other than OAC the LS owners here are older than 49 and by more than a few years too!

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    If you are middle-aged, there is not much to lust after MB for, except when you get to its upper-tier cars/roadsters/AMG variants..

    And what exactly does Lexus have for anyone to lust over? The LS430? The SC430? The ES350? You're kidding right? What the lust object in the Lexus lineup execpt arguably the new IS? Their SUVs are certainly not lust objects and neither are the LS, GS and ES. What are the Lexus lust objects? What does lust mean to a Lexusfan might be the more imporant question. Sounds like something very, very watered down from what I thought it meant.

    By the same token your every Benz sedan isn't a lust object either, but they have enough coupes/roadsters/AMG products to easily shade Lexus 5xs over when it comes to "lust".

    M
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Well I never said my car was the fastest on the planet.
    I don't do the challenging. They all come after ME!
    But once they do...... ;)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Take the SUV sales component out and Lexus' average age skyrockets.
    There are many more seniors driving the LS than younger folks.
    Not a crime. Just a fact.
    After all, 2 of my best parents were seniors.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    There are many more seniors driving the LS than younger folks.

    Probably, but also true of the S, and even the E, imho.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    But NOT true of the 545!
    Gracias a Dios!
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    May be the first time an Aussie has won?

    David Graham 1981

    Merc, that was your finest Monday Mornings with Merc to date.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Then you aren't getting the meaning of performance here. The LS430's body rolls (leans) too much for it to feel as secure the S-Class.

    The LS430 has a too-light, almost completely detached steering with no feel even compared to a Mercedes. The seats are too flat to even entertain mildly aggressive driving, honestly they're very Buick-like in that regard.

    According to C&D, this is your perception, not reality. If your read some reviews of the car, you will find that the chassis is plenty capable, and inspires confidence, but ride-biased, ultra-quiet tires don't yield the handling numbers this car can generate.

    Lexus isn't selling track numbers. They're selling what the customer wants. An LS!

    DrFill
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    According to C&D, this is your perception, not reality.

    No, it's one C&D writer's perception. Someone else, I think it was in R&T, described the LS430's handling as greasy so they are at odds. I fully agree with Merc that the LS handles like a boat and is numb. Also, I'll take R&T's evaluations any day over C&D.

    Doc, you need to at least put quotes around the text you are quoting. It's hard to follow your posts sometimes because of this. Thank you.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Doc, you need to at least put quotes around the text you are quoting. It's hard to follow your posts sometimes because of this. Thank you.

    I concur! It would also be helpful, doc, if you'd use the Reply link. It's often hard to know which message(s) prompt your posts.

    :)
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Merc, that was your finest Monday Mornings with Merc to date.

    Not in my book... Everything was all anti-Lexus ramblings. Typical ranting/downloads of "MB is superior, Lexus is crap" shpeel. Its old news now; read: we've heard it all before. Reading or listening to Merc1, you'd come away thinking how bad Lexus cars must be, and why no one in their right minds should be buying one. Thankfully, reality is far more clear than the biased and myopic viewpoints of everything "performance" that Merc1 and others in the group-think shares.

    MB has 110+ years of making automobiles, and Merc1 expects Lexus' 16 yrs in the market to meet or equal MBs. Sheesh ! MB's myriad of variants is nothing more than an attempt to shore up its image and brand against the onslaught from companies like Lexus, MB and Audi. Eventually, this brand dilution and high cost structures to turn out these myriad of models will lead to image problems that MB will be dealing with for awhile. Some of the symptoms are already here.... The idea that you can always add another AMG variant to the lineup to make the cars sexier can only get you so far... To maintain a high brand equity, MB needs less models not more, IMO. That's how you get a lust-factor ! But right now, there is a dizzying array of MB models, and its turned into a boutique shop. Is that what MB stands for today ?
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    To maintain a high brand equity, MB needs less models not more, IMO. That's how you get a lust-factor ! But right now, there is a dizzying array of MB models, and its turned into a boutique shop. Is that what MB stands for today ?

    You are making it sound quite negative, and I'm not sure why, especially when you consider that Lexus is going the direction of increasing it's number of variants as well. BMW has quite the assortment, too. Even Porsche, of all marques, has a considerable number of variations now, with even more on the way.

    It would seem that there is nothing wrong with the Burger King approach . . . "have it your way".

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    David Graham 1981

    Better get prepared for Jeopardy. ;)

    TagMan
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    Someone else, I think it was in R&T, described the LS430's handling as greasy so they are at odds. I fully agree with Merc that the LS handles like a boat and is numb.

    First, let me remind people that although I don't have as many cars as blkhemi (but then who does?), I have owned BMW, MB and Audi cars in the past (and still own 2 MBs).

    I spent the last weekend driving from DC to Philly and back (attending a funeral) with my family in my '05 LS430. This car does not have the "impossible-to-find" Euro suspension, but does have the 18" all-season low profile Dunlop tires.

    Real world test: everyone in my family (one front seat and two rear seat passengers, and me as driver) enjoyed the ride. The GPS worked great getting us around without any maps in unfamiliar places (used the override sequence to enable changes in Destinations while driving - a must do!), the ride was smooth and quiet, the brakes worked beautifully in the one accident avoidance maneuver I had to make, and the seats were comfortable (even for me who has a very bad back from failed back surgery). It did not handle like a boat, and the steering on my car is extremely tight - if anything, it takes more effort than I might like (this may be a function of the sticky 18" tires).

    I admittedly rarely go more than 10 mph above the speed limit, so 75 mph is more my reality than 110+ mph on the Autobahn. I could understand why someone in Germany would choose an S600 or 760 0ver an LS for that reason, but I don't live there.

    The only knock I have on this car is the uninspired styling (interior and exterior). But looks like even that will improve with the upcoming LS460.

    If I were going to drive aggressively at high speed darting in and out of traffic (like one person I saw on I-95 yesterday in a M45), I'd go with hpowders' 545 or a tuner version E or 5 series. I certainly wouldn't choose an S, an A8, or even a 7 for that. But the reality is I don't want to drive like that. I do like to take corners relatively quickly, and my LS actually does that better than my E320. Sorry, merc1 and Tagman, at least shod with performance tires, the LS handles very well. Drive one with these tires (but without the "Euro suspension" which is how they are coming to the dealers these days), and I think you may change your one-note tune. But of course, even more relevant for the future will be how the LS460 handles, and NO ONE HAS DRIVEN ONE YET!

    Hey, I am just thankful that I, the grandson of immigrants who came here with nothing but the clothes on their backs, have the right and the capability to choose among these fine vehicles. Ain't America great!
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    It would seem that there is nothing wrong with the Burger King approach . . . "have it your way".

    Maybe so... But no car company has the dizzying array of the model selections that MB has. Not BMW, not Porsche, and certainly not Lexus by a mile:

    C: 280/320/55
    E: 350/500/55
    S: 550/600/63/65
    CL: 500/55/65
    CLK: 500/55/65
    SLK: 350/500/55
    CLS: 500/55/65
    SL: 500/55/65
    SLR
    R: 350/500
    ML: 350/500/55
    GL: 450
    G: 500

    And these are just in NA alone.... By the time you add the variants in Europe, Middle East and Asia, you'd have to multiply each model line by a factor of 2 !!! Burger King-way sure looks like it, but it ain't a way to improve brand image and marqueness, all IMO !!!
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    It did not handle like a boat, and the steering on my car is extremely tight - if anything, it takes more effort than I might like (this may be a function of the sticky 18" tires).

    I do like to take corners relatively quickly, and my LS actually does that better than my E320. Sorry, merc1 and Tagman, at least shod with performance tires, the LS handles very well. Drive one with these tires (but without the "Euro suspension" which is how they are coming to the dealers these days), and I think you may change your one-note tune.


    GaryH, thanks for that real-world post. Same thing I have said repeatedly here. The LS does NOT handle like a boat. Put an 18" rim on that car and see how it handles. How many auto mag comparos have ever tested the LS w/18" rims ? Almost none.... But those who have this on their LS can attest to its handling ability. This is from actual owners, you know, the one that drives this car EVERYDAY not a weekend tire-kicking episode on a 2-mile jaunt, or an auto mag report of a 15-mile test drive.

    What I see in the negative posts from Euro car fans often smacks of jealousy of Lexus. The new kid on the block kicking the butt of its senior statesman, MB.

    Talking of innovation, how many cogs does the new S550 have vs how many are going into the new LS460 ? And how efficient can your engine be ? A mere 4.6L in the LS puts down as much power as the 5.5L (almost a 1L more) in the S... Should we even debate the technology in the new motors in the LS460 and S550 ??? Forgetaboutit.... How about a 40GB hard-drive in the new LS, what storage size is in the new S again ? Oh, I forgot, can the new S550 park itself as the LS460L can ? Did I see a leather-stitched dash as in the 600hL or a vinyl/wood dash in the new S550 ? How many speakers are in the new LS460L vs in the new S550 ? And accident-avoidance features in these two cars, which is more high-tech ? Both cars now wear 18" and 19" upgraded tires, so we should expect significant improvements in "performance" from both cars...
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "Jealousy Of Lexus" by the Euro car fans?

    Jealous of what??

    I can't speak for the others on team Air Euro, but I have found negative things about the GS, RX and LS after driving each, that I simply don't find in the 330i, X5 and 545.

    I do believe you are way off here.

    Jealousy. No.
    Disappointment. Yes.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Burger King-way sure looks like it, but it ain't a way to improve brand image and marqueness, all IMO !!!

    Why not? What's wrong with choices and personalization?

    TagMan
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Why not? What's wrong with choices and personalization?

    We will just have to agree to disagree here... Personalization is a key aspect of ultra high-end cars, the likes of RR, Bentley, Aston Martin, Ferrari, etc.. where each car is hand-built to a customer specification. That is personalization, not a boutique designed to please all... Put another way, why would anyone pony up $450K for an SLR when he shares service bays with a $30K C280 ?
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    I couldn't agree with you more re the reliability of MB in the 70's and 80's. They were very reliable COMPARED to the competition at that time. Meaning that when you drove off the dealer's lot things didn't start falling off the car within 10 miles like some American cars at the time. Meaning that the things that broke down could be fixed rather quickly and wouldn't strand you. More annoyances than anything else. Meaning that if you serviced it regularly you could expect to put 200K on one of their engines and that the car wouldn't rust out and would stay rock solid. These were exceptional qualities at that time.
    Then the bar was raised much to the benefit of all of us.
    I've owned 2 Lexus's, 3 MBs and 2 BMWs. I currently drive an LS430. When shopping for my luxo car I had determined that the S Class was number one for me. Best riding and styling and more luxurious than the 7 series. BUT I couldn't justify the price difference against the LS. Especially when I factored in that the S had its share of problems.
    The LS has been bullet proof and flawless.
    For me I would say that the BMW and MB cars are better at driving dynamics including seat comfort, performance, steering and road feel.
    Lexus is plain and simply, the best quality you can buy as far as reliability and the way it's screwed together.
    Will I get another LS when my lease is up? I'm not sure since I do prefer the better dynamics of the Euros but I need to find the combination of quality and value.
    By the way, even in this segment, when someone says "it's not about the money", it's always about the money. It's a very very rare cat that can make a purchase and not blink about another 20-50K. If that were the case then I think all these buyers would also consider the new Bentley Sedan and they could consider a Maybach and then a Rolls....
    I also think that Lexus is having so much success with their "soft" riding cars that they wouldn't want to turn off their loyal customer base by creating cars with sharper dynamics. Why change a successful formula?
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Jealousy. No.
    Disappointment. Yes.


    If jealousy is not there, then why all the negative press from the Euro club here ? To get away from it the Euro fans even created their own forum which ended up dead without the LS ! Yes, there are many very jealous of an upstart Lexus who have made it all the way up there in a very short time. That the LS is the #1 luxury sedan in the NA market hurts as well... The fact that the new LS will pose a serious challenge to the new S550, is a tell-tale sign that many MB fans are nervous of the new LS. I am sure MB execs are nervous as well... The list of buyers for the new LS grows daily, and the new S cannot sustain its torrid sales pace, especially when the new LS gets here.

    Disappointment ? In what ? remember we are talking HELMs here...
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Defining the word personalization doesn't change your original point which was to create a negative spin on the fact that Mercedes offers a wide selection of vehicles and variations thereof. I still don't understand why you would make this a negative thing. And the use of the word "boutique" implies something strange about what is otherwise basically a broad selection. I do believe that if it were Lexus offering the variety it would be made out to be a good thing . . . and as I indicated, Lexus will be doing just that . . . increasing their selection as well. I just don't see the problem here.

    Me thinks that maybe oac is poking at Mercedes where it isn't necessary . . . just for the sake of poking. ????? ;)

    TagMan
  • killerbunnykillerbunny Member Posts: 141
    No, it's one C&D writer's perception. Someone else, I think it was in R&T, described the LS430's handling as greasy so they are at odds. I fully agree with Merc that the LS handles like a boat and is numb. Also, I'll take R&T's evaluations any day over C&D.

    Sounds foolish to me. Can I say the Subaru WRX is a better car than Rolls Phantom, because it handles better?

    The "handling" card can only be played to a certain extend. The LS may not be the best handling in its class, but it does not need to be. It's the best overall combination for the price range, as proven by the sales numbers.

    Even for the compact segment, BMW 3 seires is not that strong against competition. Try a turbo 4WD Subaru Legacy. The latter has hard to match handling, safty, reliability and exclusivity.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Even for the compact segment, BMW 3 seires is not that strong against competition. Try a turbo 4WD Subaru Legacy. The latter has hard to match handling, safty, reliability and exclusivity.

    Ok, that I'm going to have to disagree with. BMW is hardly my favorite automaker, but they still do the entry-lux sport sedan game better than pretty much everyone else, especially Subaru.

    I've driven the Legacy 2.5GT, and while its certainly a lot better than the horribly underpowered old car, it still has a lot of problems. For one, they can't get the turbo and automatic to play nice together, so there's turbo lag, and then a rush of acceleration that is often more than you asked for. The steering felt artificially heavy at parking speeds, and much too light at critical speeds of 40-50mph, with little to no feedback.

    Handling I felt was pretty sloppy for something trying to be a sports sedan. There was body roll aplenty, and since Subaru still has the incredibly annoying habit of making stability control ONLY available on its vaunted "VDC" cars, which is like one Outback wagon trim, the car tended to oversteer without warning, thanks to the numb steering.

    While it has superb crash test scores, the fact that Subaru wont even make ESC an option means that the car is actually less safe when trying to avoid an accident in the first place. You have to be kidding about "exclusivity". Its a $25K car, you just don't see many of them because it hasn't been a sales success. Probably due to the reasons listed above. The G35x, 330xi, and A4 are much better cars.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Well, I mentioned I drove the LS and I was disappointed.
    Perhaps the new one will be a lot better.

    I can't speak for the rest of the Air-Europenos.
    But when I shop for a car, I consider the driving dynamics of the car and if it's a "good fit."
    Nothing else matters.
    None of these guys are going out of business. Fast growth. Slow growth. Who cares?

    If the GS 430 or LS felt right when I drove them, I would be driving one of those now.

    I don't consider myself especially pro-Europe or anti-Asian (my wife is Asian and she insists I get BMW's).
    I'll drive anything if its good enough to meet my standards.
  • reality2reality2 Member Posts: 303
    I am quite calm, so save your juvenile rudeness for someone else. As for C&D doing the "best" comparos that is simply your opinion. It is strange though that the A8L has won comparos in not just MT, Road and Track, Automobile, Autoweek (All-star pick), but even Edmunds voted it as Editor's Choice...not to mention the countless awards the A8L has accumulated world-wide in the last two years. C&D is no way the best mag in the States (again your opinion). Basically, I am not knocking the Lexus, but save the put downs for someone else just "because it is your opinion" and nothing else.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I'll drive anything if its good enough to meet my standards.

    Interesting statement. But for many, it's what can be afforded. Read this . . .

    Imagine that your highest attainable success car is the price of a Lexus LS. Imagine that you don't have the financial clout to get the Mercedes S-Class. You can't even consider it.

    Actually this is not all that uncommon.

    Will you be disappointed? Maybe, maybe not. But the Lexus LS is certainly good enough as a "highest achievable" vehicle for so many Americans. Particularly considering the price.

    BUT. BUT. But, what happens when the affordability factor is increased, as occurs with a SMALLER percentage of buyers? This is because of the ratio and distribution of wealth to the general population, meaning that the greater the wealth, the fewer the numbers. So, as I was saying, what happens when the wealth is increased to the next smaller percentage of Americans? Well, they have an increased choice of vehicles, and here is where the S-Class comes in.

    At the higher affordability level, now those folks can compare and choose between the S-Class and the LS. They are not economically limited to only the LS price tier. This is where your S-Class purchases come from. MANY of the buyers from THIS group choose the S-Class, particularly because they CAN afford it. Some will not choose the S-Class, and will still choose the LS, even though they could afford either. But it is only from the group that can afford EITHER that will buy the S-CLass as their preference.

    But READ THIS . . . An S-Class buyer NEVER has to purchase the S-Class because he couldn't afford the LS. That's right . . . An S-Class buyer NEVER has to purchase the S-Class because he couldn't afford the LS.

    But, here's the catch . . . there are times when the LS buyer can NOT buy the S-Class. He MUST choose the LS because he did not have the economic choice and the LS was the best he could do. Again, this is an economic reality.

    And it shows that ALL S-Class purchases COULD have been LS purchases, but were NOT. Conversely, all LS purchases can NOT make the same claim. Interesting and BIG difference.

    TagMan
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    Tag----Yougot that right..I`d further like to add that those that could get either, sometimes gets the lesso priced one just for variety or vise -versa....Tony
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Whoa!
    That amazing discourse of verbal virtuosity has earned you the title: Commander of Air Europe!
    Deservedly so!
    And to think I fell asleep in Logic 101!

    That's where I don't get Oac's jealousy claim against the Euros:
    All S-Class buyers can buy an LS, but not all LS buyers can afford an S-Class.
    I think he's got this jealousy thing backward. ;)

    PS: Of course you are correct: the implication in my post is "up to my standards within reason according to price."
    Knowing myself, I could see going up to about $100k for a vehicle I've tested as extraordinary, and I'd pray my wife wouldn't ask to see the bill of sale.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    According to C&D, this is your perception, not reality. If your read some reviews of the car, you will find that the chassis is plenty capable, and inspires confidence, but ride-biased, ultra-quiet tires don't yield the handling numbers this car can generate.

    According to C&D doesn't mean much when I've driven the car to find out that it does indeed handle poorly. Sure the chassis is capable as in capable of providing a good ride, but not much hanlding. See here Doc I don't have to rely on a "review" of anything, I've driven the car. It rolls like the Queen Elizabeth when asked to corner. Blaming it on tires is an easy excuse when the "Euro" model really isn't available.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    No, it's one C&D writer's perception. Someone else, I think it was in R&T, described the LS430's handling as greasy so they are at odds. I fully agree with Merc that the LS handles like a boat and is numb. Also, I'll take R&T's evaluations any day over C&D.

    Exactly. No where in any review did they say the car had handling equal to any of the Euro cars. That was in the MT comparo in which they said the LS' handling was greasy, the same comparo in which they picked the A8L as the winner. As Reality2 state the A8 has had its share of wins here, yet the only comparo that matters is the ones that Lexus win, the C&D one.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Merc, that was your finest Monday Mornings with Merc to date.

    :D

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Everything was all anti-Lexus ramblings. Typical ranting/downloads of "MB is superior, Lexus is crap" shpeel. Its old news now; read: we've heard it all before. Reading or listening to Merc1, you'd come away thinking how bad Lexus cars must be, and why no one in their right minds should be buying one. Thankfully, reality is far more clear than the biased and myopic viewpoints of everything "performance" that Merc1 and others in the group-think shares.

    And the exact saome thing could be said about your constant ramblings about Mercedes, often with incorrect information passed off as facts. Mercedes this and Mercedes that and then when I inevitably prove your argument to have no basis you cry foul Oac, its been that way for years now. The only reason you're going this route instead of discussing the issue is because everyone here except the most devoted Lexus fans (you basically IMO) know what I mean by performance and that it isn't just about numbers. I clearly stated in the same post that this class isn't all about performance, clearly I stated that but you continue to say that I only think about performance. How in the world could that be when we're talking about an S-Class? You asked what the Germancarfans mean by "performance" and I gave the details on what it means to most of us then you turn around and dismiss it by not discussing the issue only to say that I'm talking down on Lexus. Yet you do the same all the time in the same manner you do about MB.

    Thankfully the reality is that the LS430 isn't the end-all of the market and thank god such a dull car isn't the only choice in this segment.

    MB has 110+ years of making automobiles, and Merc1 expects Lexus' 16 yrs in the market to meet or equal MBs. Sheesh ! MB's myriad of variants is nothing more than an attempt to shore up its image and brand against the onslaught from companies like Lexus, MB and Audi.

    Actually they have 120 yeas of carmaking under their belt. Secondly no one here expects Lexus to equal Mercedes overall. Where did anyone say this? MB's many variants are an attempt to shore up its image? See this smacks of an inherent bias that precludes all sensible reasoning on the subject. Lexus is doing the same thing with upcoming versions of the IS, LS, and that sports car....uh..to shore up their image. BMW and Audi are also on similar expansions with the many models they have planned over the future. If anything they're all taking a page from the MB playbook, not the opposite like you're trying to imply here. Your bias doesn't even let you see that Lexus is doing the same thing. Why short and long wheelbases and different engines in the new LS? S-Class does it, that is why!

    Eventually, this brand dilution and high cost structures to turn out these myriad of models will lead to image problems that MB will be dealing with for awhile.

    To who? People that don't even know what Mercedes was or is about? Eventually is right because we're been hearing this same tired thing for quite some time on this board, yet at the same time, Audi,BMW and Lexus are all on pace to introduce new models in new classes over the next few years are they not?

    Some of the symptoms are already here.... The idea that you can always add another AMG variant to the lineup to make the cars sexier can only get you so far... To maintain a high brand equity, MB needs less models not more, IMO. That's how you get a lust-factor !

    Don't get this one at all. Someone had better tell Lexus, BMW and Audi this. Mercedes is no longer a botique shop anymore they're a volume player now just like everyone else so less models isn't an option anymore. More models, provided that are done right doesn't hurt image at all. You can say the R-Class is stain on MB's image for sure, but with the everything that has been recently introduced, being hits the R hasn't done much damage to the MB's overall standing. The new S, facelifted SL, E, and the monster AMG intros are taking center stage every month everwhere. Lexus can't buy that type of buzz!

    That's how you get a lust-factor ! But right now, there is a dizzying array of MB models, and its turned into a boutique shop. Is that what MB stands for today ?

    According to what, the Lexus way of doing things? There is absolutely nothing in the Lexus lineup to lust after so I can't see where you're getting your definition of how to make a lust object from. Lexus has nothing. Zilch. Yeah Mercedes has a lot of models and I'm not always crazy about it either, but going back to a true boutique shop isn't an option at this point.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    And these are just in NA alone.... By the time you add the variants in Europe, Middle East and Asia, you'd have to multiply each model line by a factor of 2 !!! Burger King-way sure looks like it, but it ain't a way to improve brand image and marqueness, all IMO !!!

    Yet it works. See this is where knowing about Mercedes comes in at. They've always had a lot of different models, more than either BMW or Audi, only recently did really expand into totally new segments. A little FYI here some of those cars are like the S-Class and CL have always been there, just before the "CL" was just the S-Class Coupe, which is really what it still is. Why would you list the SLR there? Surely a 450K, 612hp supercar isn't hurting their image and you certainly don't see one on every corner. The only new models there are the R and GL and CLS and maybe the SLK having come out in 1997. The only one there that is questionable is the R-Class, which has done a belly flop in the market. The rest have done nothing but "shore up" MB's image not hurt it. The CLS has opened up a new segment that VW, Porsche, Aston-martin and others are now trying to come up with something similar. Again that is nothing but sheer prestige for Mercedes having done that. What the CLS has done for MB is no more different than what you claim the RX did for Lexus. Since BMW has an X3 and others like Audi, Infiniti, and Acura are going to join the small-lux SUV arena should Mercedes stay out of it?

    What I really want to know is how more models hurts Mercedes when Lexus is going to do the same thing? Aren't you guys always talking about all these Lexus models coming in the next few years? How is that any different?

    M
  • landilandi Member Posts: 44
    I am another under 45 LS owner. When I was considering purchasing my car in 04 my other choices were 530i, S4, and Cayenne S. Very wide choices, indeed. I wanted to get the best car for my wants and needs. My second choice would have been S4 with manual tranny. I am due for a new one this fall and my choices are LS460/600 or S8. So handling is important to me (but is not everything) and the LS does not fail in that department. Yes it leans too much but has excellent balance, steering and brakes for everyday driving. I Put it in second gear and step on it on the on ramps, it goes (even with 17s)! But I would not buy the LS if I lived in an area that had twisty roads, lived in Germany where I could go 120 all day, or if I wanted to use on the track. But I live in Sunny California, so the LS is good enough to exceed the speed limit every now and then.

    Frankly, I would love to own a German car if their total package including the exterior, interior, handling, reliability, dealer service, and yes the big bad word VALUE exceeded Lexus's. I like the S8 because it is beautiful inside and out and will be a great performer. I am willing to live with its reliability but the dealer service and to a lesser extent the MMI are what I am afraid of. Has anyone seen the A8 Audi Exclusive interior? The wood and the leather are out of this world. Just simply Exquisite.

    I do not put much thought to the Magazines because they only have the car for so long and they drive them mostly to test their performance. By the way, one of the magazines rated the AMG E63 first, S6 second and M5 last! Go figure Bimmer fans. M5 must be an inferior product! NOT.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    GaryH, thanks for that real-world post. Same thing I have said repeatedly here. The LS does NOT handle like a boat. Put an 18" rim on that car and see how it handles. How many auto mag comparos have ever tested the LS w/18" rims ? Almost none.... But those who have this on their LS can attest to its handling ability. This is from actual owners, you know, the one that drives this car EVERYDAY not a weekend tire-kicking episode on a 2-mile jaunt, or an auto mag report of a 15-mile test drive.

    Yet we're talking about handling on a family outing and that is supposed to be a clear indication of how the car handles? Again, no one here is saying that any of these cars are sports cars only that the Lexus LS DOES NOT match the Euro competion. What was the point of Lexus staging such a rediculous event with a handling course? That is what you should be asking Lexus. On THEIR course the car was pitiful and this was low speeds. How much handling are you going to get out of a family outing. I'm starting to think that even discussing hanlding here is pointless if anyone thinks the LS430 "handles".

    Talking of innovation, how many cogs does the new S550 have vs how many are going into the new LS460 ? And how efficient can your engine be ? A mere 4.6L in the LS puts down as much power as the 5.5L (almost a 1L more) in the S...

    Gee now when MB came out with a 7-speed the Lexusfans dismissed it as useless overkill and said that a 6-speed was good enough, now of course the tune has changed in typical fashion. Now MB will need to come up with a 10-speed in order to become #1 again based on all these johnny-come-lately "innovations".

    Should we even debate the technology in the new motors in the LS460 and S550 ??? Forgetaboutit.... How about a 40GB hard-drive in the new LS, what storage size is in the new S again ? Oh, I forgot, can the new S550 park itself as the LS460L can ? Did I see a leather-stitched dash as in the 600hL or a vinyl/wood dash in the new S550 ? How many speakers are in the new LS460L vs in the new S550 ? And accident-avoidance features in these two cars, which is more high-tech ? Both cars now wear 18" and 19" upgraded tires, so we should expect significant improvements in "performance" from both cars...

    I guess now that when Lexus updates existing technology they automatically become an "innovator". This has to be the weakest list of "innovations" I've every seen. All of it is an upgrade on existing tech. The Lexus has more storage space on its hard drive compared to the S550, but the S550 has the same exact thing, but not as much space. WOW that took a lot of work on Lexus' part. Forget that the S550 has been out since Sept 2005 plenty of time for Lexus to change their specs to include more space. Now that is innovation. Uh...do I see a leather stitched dash on the S600? Yes. Now leather on the dash is an innovation. Quick someone call Bentley and tell them that they have been upstaged!

    What I see in the negative posts from Euro car fans often smacks of jealousy of Lexus. The new kid on the block kicking the butt of its senior statesman, MB.

    That is exactly what it is, but in the reverse. Whenever a Lexus can't be #1 in a particular area the criteria is dismissed. Lexus' whole being was based on just envy of Mercedes-Benz. Their flagship car has been up to this point the very defintion of jealousy. I mean to take a whole bodystyle and copy it says something when you do it for your "marquee" car. Lexus tags their top LS a "600" to ape from Mercedes' S600. Another clear signal as to who the target (read: who they want to be like) is. As for their fans they suffer from it too. Any mention of Lexus has to include the obligatory comment about the destruction of Mercedes-Benz. It is never BMW, Audi, Jaguar, Cadillac, Infiniti, just Mercedes and that doesn't say who is jealous of who I don't know what does.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Sorry, merc1 and Tagman, at least shod with performance tires, the LS handles very well. Drive one with these tires (but without the "Euro suspension" which is how they are coming to the dealers these days), and I think you may change your one-note tune. But of course, even more relevant for the future will be how the LS460 handles, and NO ONE HAS DRIVEN ONE YET!

    The LS430 "handles" compared to what though?

    I haven't read anything about that experience that says anything about the car having any real "handling" Gary. What I read was about a nice family outing at moderate speeds. The fact of the matter is that when these cars are driven aggressively (which most people don't, never said they did), the LS can't cut it. That is all I, Tagman and Designman (and all the professionals) are saying. I've drive the LS back to back with the previous S500 on a course Lexus provided and the S500 handled much better.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    We will just have to agree to disagree here... Personalization is a key aspect of ultra high-end cars, the likes of RR, Bentley, Aston Martin, Ferrari, etc.. where each car is hand-built to a customer specification. That is personalization, not a boutique designed to please all... Put another way, why would anyone pony up $450K for an SLR when he shares service bays with a $30K C280 ?

    Interesting so I guess the fact that every other Lexus on the road is just like every other Lexus except for colors and some options doesn't hurt their image? The majority or Lexuses on the road wear beige leather and bright-colored wood like some type of badge of honor. Mercedes has so much customization available now it isn't even funny.

    That said, none of these cars will ever be on the level of Bentley, Aston-Martin or anything like that, these are mass-produced cars. Lexus doesn't even offer anything special on one car from the next, no performance version no special interiors, nothing. It is equally interesting to read all this about the SLR sharing a service bay with a C280 being some sort of problem? How many times do you think a SLR owner ever walks to the back to see the service bay? I seriously doubt any MB dealer would even require that SLR owner bring the car in as opposed to going and picking it up for them.

    They'd buy a SLR because it is a amazing vehicle one in league so far above anything from Lexus so far, not because of what it has to share service bays with. I know Lexus fans get a kick out of going for service so I guess this might be an issue at Lexus dealership when they start adding 100K+ models that still have to share the service bays with the glorified Camry, the ES.

    Truthfully why would it matter? This is not a VW service bay in which a "regular" car like a Jetta is sitting beside a different breed of buyer like those of the Phaeton. The services bays at a MB or Lexus dealership are supposed to be to a certain standard anyway and it isn't like there are that many SLRs to come in for this to be a problem anyway. They sell maybe 200 of them a year. That isn't going to create some type of glut of SLRs in the service bays with the "regular" Mercedes-Benzes.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Very good post. The only thing I disagree with is:

    Lexus is plain and simply, the best quality you can buy as far as reliability and the way it's screwed together.

    Reliability yes, but the build part no. Any Audi and several newer Mercedes are built as good or better than any Lexus as far as their physical build. Audi in particular is often called the standard in that area. The new S-Class is built much better than the W220 was, especially the 2000-2002 models.

    Other than that little detail I agree with what you've said.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    That's where I don't get Oac's jealousy claim against the Euros:
    All S-Class buyers can buy an LS, but not all LS buyers can afford an S-Class.
    I think he's got this jealousy thing backward


    Yes, definitely. A new Lexus can't be talked about unless Mercedes is mentioned as being the car to be destroyed. This charge about jealousy is really something.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Thanks for re-wording what I've been saying all along. Price matters one minute here and then the next it doesn't. Just like status, number of gears, or 0-60 times. If Lexus has the advantage then it is seen as a major selling point, but if it one of the Euros, nope.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yeah I didn't get that one either. Lexus has nothing on the order of "personalization" of MB,BMW or Audi yet it is brought up here concerning Lexus. The fact that Mercedes offers so many choices has been one of the reasons they've been so highly regarded all these years. What does an LS buyer do after they've had a 1/2 dozen LSs? There is no coupe or roadster at Lexus that equals the LS like there is a Mercedes. There are no performance models, no 4-seat cabriolets, sports cars? Nothing. Even Cadillac provides more choice now. Lexus is all sedans and suvs at the moment and that is the only reason why this about having too many models is a problem, because Lexus doesn't have anything to compare.

    Before you arrived here Tagman there was a knock on MB/BMW/Audi/Jaguar about them making all their cars look alike. It was seen as a "problem" for the C to look like the S and the front of the SL to look like the front of the CLK, but since Lexus has now (finally) adopted the same policy by making all their cars look more or less alike, the IS and LS, but in different sizes like the C & S were, its all good now. This about the having too many models too with fall by the wayside after Lexus gets done flushing out their lineup. That about having more models is definitely just a nit-pic for the sake of doing so underlined by the fact that Lexus is going the same route really exposes that claim for what really it is.

    M
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