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Comments
That's an easy one. Nobody can find one!
Who tells Lexus not to supply one for the comparos?
I asked a Lexus dealer if I could drive one, and of all demos, none was so equipped.
Seems like a Euro LS is just a figment of the imagination.
Really ? I would have thought the opposite, cos like many Eurofans here, these mags have their biases as well and would not have thought to expect a floaty, luxo-cruiser, snoozemobile like the LS against the likes of the 745, A8, and S430. Who would have thunk dat ??? I see how hard it is for any of your Eurofans even to accept that comparo. Figures...
It does exist, Howard, just difficult to find. And I think Lexus may have actually discontinued this setup. May be why no one can find one that easy...
Not exactly a ringing endorsement.
If Toyota can take the conservative Camry and dress it up with a nice SE sport package that even I could find appealing, why can't Lexus do the same with the LS?
I have never seen any auto mag. issue such a disclaimer for any of the thousands of vehicles tested over the last 30 years."
Should I call that a lie, or just "poetic license? Or do you just need to look up the meaning of the word "disclaimer"?
The comparison itself doesn't start with any quote of the kind! When they get to the leader, the champion, simply the best car there, they said:
"If you just walked up and asked, we'd say this is not a C&D sort of car."
That's quite a bit different than this not a car the magazine would usually review.
An accurate interpretation of that direct quote would be the LS is not a car that feels the need to flount power, handling, performance tires, and an extroverted personna to drive in a performance oriented consumer, which is the type of person that C&D caters the magazine to.
This only emphasizes the excellence of the LS, winning when all of the odds are against it!
Do you think they wanted to pick the LS430 #1 (again)?
You seem to imply that the LS isn't good enough to be mentioned with the other vehicles it defeated, or is not worthy of spending time with.
I don't care if C&D reviews it once a generation!
If the results are the same (it hands Mercedes it's head, again, as it did in 2000), it's like a heavyweight champion coming out of retirement just for the sheer joy of beating the next Pretender to the Throne.
As far as C&D has reported, a better luxury car has not been made, this side of Maybach, since 1990.
Now back to your regularly scheduled misinformation.
DrFill
I guess the last sentence was crossing the line.
DrFill
Can we just get back to the cars and stop sniping at each other? Please? :confuse:
I needed fast, effective relief, on contact.
DrFill
Why did they feel the need to state that the LS is not "a C&D sort of car?" Sure sounds the same to me as a car that C&D wouldn't normally review.
What would you prefer ? A car winning outright or winning in a segment ? Why not give the LS its due props for showing up along with the big dogs from Germany, and besting them in that comparo ? Seems fair to me... If the S or Audi or 7-series had won that comparo we won't hear the end of it, but since its the LS, you don't want to hear it, and rather dismiss it, or explain it away as something less than factual... Just not the kind of viewpoint I'd expect from the many intelligentsias we have on this board...
A few posts ago a poster called top? said that he felt the build quality of the A8 was behind everyone else. This is fine for an opinion and everyone is welcome to their's. Once again I might look at a broader history of what was, and is being said on the subject before coming to conclusions.
I wouldn't discount the LS on it's merits, reliability, resale, cushy ride. These are great thing's if that is what you are after. I think going on one review when history has shown the opposite is a little short sighted, and rushing to judgment. But everyone to his opinion and all. :shades:
The BMW 3 series has won many comparos. It is indisputably a great vehicle.
There is no consensus of victorious comparos for the LS. There's just the one.
Even Consumer Reports, normally the friendliest place to find positive Lexus reviews, has relinquished the LS' crown and given "best sedan over $40k" to the Infiniti M35x in its April, 2006 issue.
Oh. The indignity of it all! :P
Huh?
So winning the sales race isn't enough.
Winning every quality award in existence isn't enough.
Beating all comers in a comparison against more expensive, sexier models isn't enough either.
Now Lexus has to win, what, a best of seven?
Can I please get a break?
A great vehicle either wins in sales, or wins dynamic comparisons.
S-Class and LS win in sales. A8 wins neither (but I still like it).
I do have an issue with R&T's comparison structure, as it is heavily scewed towards performance, which, particularly with luxury sedans, is not the driving force behind the design, or desire, for these cars.
Is the car capable? Is it comfortable? Is it valuable? Is it finely made? Does it frustrate you, or welcome you? Is it engaging, or enraging? Can it balance it's virtues? Will it's virtues last?
DrFill
But if you and the others insist on doing it, put it in its proper context-where is the consensus of comparo victories?
One comparo victory is nice but....
Forget Road & Track. They are only impressed by redline performance. Those guys are from fantasy-land.
There are plenty of others, though.
Curious to see what that droll reviewer for the London Times, Jeremy Clarkson would say.
They have a "head to head" section pitting 2 cars against each other.
Perhaps they will pit the new LS vs the MB S-class in the future.
Dr. Fill: I mean the point about Lexus being such a good handling vehicle
In the give credit where it is due department:
The Times Of London was very impressed with the GS 450h.
I have been driving a 2004 LS430 since NOV. 2003 and I am of the opinion that its handling and performance is more than good enough for me. There is no way that anyone can convince me that I made the wrong decision and that I should have gone with the MB. Now, I am very much looking forward to the vehicle that will likely blow all the competition away, the LS600HL (first on my dealer's list). Sooner or later the European luxury car enthusiast will "wake up and smell the roses" as well. That will probably happen with the release of the new LS460 and the LS600HL.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Interestingly, even CR has rated the GS as below average. Even though it of course aced their reliability scores, they were not impressed. Lexus really blew it if even CR thinks its a poseur sports sedan.
LJ, are you and Doc getting to much sun these days?? The A8 is often the 1st or 2nd best selling premium sedan in Europe and abroad. And the kick about it's retained value can't be furthest from the truth. If so, why has my W-12 only lost 7.2% of it's total value when in the same token a similarly(to the tilts-ULTRA, the works- NO Euro tho(lol)) equipped LS loses 9.3%? The same can be said about a similarly equipped A8L.
A 3 year old car, yet even Edmunds has to admit it is "better than most in it's class", a close match with MB. Again, no Lexus was ever mentioned. Further more, you and the other LexIthinkIcans can rant about Audi all you want, but the laughs will stop soon enough, especially when the supposed "dominator" LS600h 15 minutes of stardom wears off. For all it's technology, 430hp is akin to a 4-cylinder engine nowadays in this class. Sure it has hybrid, but why does it only get 3mpg better on the hwy than my W-12 with 450hp? Seems like yet another frivilous offer from Lexus again...
And it has been quoted that the A8 hasn't won any comparos. HMM? Lexus won "a" comparo on the whim that it was tested against a less-powerful and "base" S430. The Audi A8 has been tested against all of Europe's, America's, and Japan's tests and I've counted 9 that it has won. So the LS won by a leaning fender, great. But that 3 years ago. The class has moved on and now THEY are playing catch up. Much to late in my opinion.
BlkHemi: I think the HSD can be thought of in tow ways - mpg and performance. Sure you do get some bump-up in MPG but the real story is in the improved performance of the car. The GS450h is a far better performance sedan than its brethren GS300 with same n/a V6 motor. Ditto the 600h will out-perform its brethren 460L when both gets here. But I do not want to point this out too much, if your V-12 A8 W12 puts down 450hp, Lexus's V8-H is doing about same with 4-less cylinders.... The torque number for the 600h should be interesting. I hope it tops 450Ibft... Lastly, key factoids will be the suspension in the 600h, the gearing ratios of the manumatic CVT 8-speed, and how those low-profile 19" rims will work smoothly, quietly, luxuriously, and yet with better performance all rolled into one. That would be the marvel of this car, assuming Lexus can do this.
I am no Audi basher, btw. I have nothing against Audi, never has. I may not like the tootie grin of the front grill design, but I don't mind the rest of the package, even MMI. My beef is with the over-hyping of MB due to its supposed better handling/performance with its mainstream sedans...
Secondly, if The LS 600H prices in the $90K range, then in that class of price it's the king in HP. 430HP being equivalent to a 4 cyl in this class is yet another comment of yours that is biased and looks like a joke.
Let's not forget the easy parts of vehicle classification, ok?
And my Hot #2:
When you are on Team Lexus, every day is a Sunshiny day!
DrFill
The fact that you say Audi as a brand doesn't measure up, yet even in the compact (A4) class, it outsells the IS 3-1, and it has 2 hot versions, something the IS is working on, especially the IS500, in which I hope the company does build to compete with the RS 4 and M3, it's main competitors. The A6, which is beyond any GS, is the best selling premium car, worldwide. Yes this includes the "I live in America and could give a hoot(I know other words than the derogatory- that makes "you" look "bad") about Europe. And the A8, while relatively low in sales as usual in the U.S., is the best large sedan I've ever had as far as balance of ride/handling goes behind my 760iL last year. And it has stock 20" wheels on it, which given the mammoth size of them, the ride is strikingly amazing because of Audi's trick air suspension, one of the best out there. It's good enough for Porsche, isn't it, the company everyone loves to love?
Now to LS600H. You can argue to the crack of dawn about all of it's techs and features. But to carry the "600" moniker, they could've at least given the car more oomph to compete with the real 600. Admittedly, the 600h's numbers haven't been finalized, but I can't see Lexus going to much higher than 430, which is fine, but not a class standout as you'd have it. And with Lexus tooting about all of it's inherit performance, I mentioned that about it's relatively low power output in light of the super sedans like the S600 putting down over 500 horses with very little compromise. And yes, I will admit that HSD is a very great introduction into the market place, but the jury is still out on it's long-term reliability(dare I say this and Lexus in the same sentence) with all of the Prius problems that have plagued the technology since the '04 Prius, the same can be said about Honda's IMA.
So all of the senical and snobbish comments you dish out has been dismissed as blatant ignorance and rudeness, no swearing needed....
You’re right. And I’m here to tell you that it could be a white elephant. Hybrids as mainstream cars have a long way to go. Read the auto rags, read the general news media, look at the sales. Hybrid is NOT Secretariat at Belmont as Ljflx chooses to portray it. For one thing production is limited with these cars due to Toyota’s trepidation which I perceive as good business sense. I’ve said it before, for the true hybrid barometer watch Camry, not Prius, not the GS 450h, not the LS600h. It’s too early in the game to be doing the sack dance over hybrids.
It’s funny how Toyota/Lexus is conservative and humble, yet a lot of you guys are Neon Deons!
;-)
I needed fast, effective relief, on contact.
Love it... LMAO!!! Doc, sometimes you are as repetitious and tenacious as a Home Depot fork lift going in reverse... beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep... but I would like you to teach that great sense of humor to the rest of the Kool Aid clan.
;-)
It has been quoted several times by many respected journalists and mags that hybrids will go the way of the ill-fated subcompacts of the '80's. Bio-fuels and squeaky clean diesel technology are here to stay, especially with MB's Blutec, Audi/V-Dubs new TDI's with Super-Trape, and upcoming BMW with hybrid-diesels. Hybrids, while needed in light of high fuel costs, are just far too complex and the expense to build is higher than what a new gen diesel will be, and they will be even cleaner than gas engines while returning better than hybrid economy.
Many of the other cars you noted are limited edition cars by choice whereas the A8 is limited by lack of demand. Big difference. Try again.
The Altima won't be a threat to either Camry or Accord hybrids. Nissan only plans to even sell them in a few states. Ghosn is not a hybrid fan.
http://www.caranddriver.com/dailyautoinsider/11249/man-drives-volvo-40-years-mil- lions-of-miles.html
Unfortunately, the GS450h may be the "White Elephant". I'm not exactly impressed by the ad campaign for this very capable vehicle.
But there is a major hype machine behind the Next LS, and the 600 will reap all the benefits of the good pub the Prius, 400h, Camry, and other members of "Team Green" have earned.
DrFill
Did you read the road test comparison of the GS 450h and 550i in the July R&T? Very pragmatic, stoic and unbiased IMO. One writer preferred the Lexus, the other the BMW. Among other things you can really see the difference between sport and luxury. To tell you the truth I would just love to get my hands on that hybrid GS for a week or so just to experience it.
But there is a major hype machine behind the Next LS, and the 600 will reap all the benefits of the good pub the Prius, 400h, Camry, and other members of "Team Green" have earned.
Toyota has to get past the novelty period with hybrids and the 600h is REALLY for novelty buyers at this point. Plus I am not so sure the Lexus market is ready for such an expensive vehicle if it comes in over $90K. That’s getting up there into rare air.
People like to think Toyota has everything planned to the Nth detail but I don’t think this is the case. Their venture with hybrids is a work in progress. Now that they have the platform/price spectrum virtually covered, they have to observe the market’s acceptance and produce accordingly. Prius has been around for quite some time so you have to ask yourself why they have chosen not to flood the market. I don’t care how much hype there is, they can’t predict the market accurately so they have to proceed cautiously, methodically, and this is exactly what they are doing with controlled production. I think there is a lot more to this than meets the eye.
As blkhemi mentioned, hybrid is expensive to manufacture and a tepid market will make it that much harder. But since they are obviously good at business, I think they have it figured out as well as they can at this point. Toyota has shown that they are not interested in quick pain relief, they prefer the longer-acting, enteric-coated tablets which are easier on the stomach ;-)
We are merely at the tailgate rally in the parking lot. But yes, put the hot dogs and sausage on the grill, the beer in the coolers, hang the opponent in effigy, toss the football around and shake the pom-poms. Nothing like the fun of the tailgate parties—some think it’s the best part. Ah-h, the season is almost at hand.
;-)
BTW, Toyota/Lexus is well past novelty and price stage. They are pricing the GS450h close to $60K, rarefied level for the 550i/E500 midsize competitors. The new LS will come in HIGHER than the old style, and Lexus will add LWB and HSD versions. These puts the brand in upper-tier perception....
Talking of the 600h, this car achieves 3 main goals, IMO:
1) MPG, clean air/environment perception
2) performance improvement, AWD, LWB, exclusivity
3) Perceived "big engine" V12-like from Lexus
Put all these together and you see how this car will be a huge bet for Lexus. The money people are ready for exclusivity. Lexus has already achieved a status symbol here in the US, and its reputation is rock solid as well. Now add a sexy style, state-of-the-art features, big motor (5L V8 + Battery), 8-speed tranny, AWD, LWB, MPG, Clean air, and improved performance/high TQ, etc... What's not to bet big on...
I agree... Maybe if BOTH sides feel this way there will be less rancor and name calling, eh ? My biggest beef with you, Designman, is your constant egging on of Merc1, and the cheer-leading.... This hero-worshipping must stop, IMO, cos it tends to lead to even more rancor in the tone of the debate, rather than the merits/demerits of these cars.
I'll go out on a limb and state that, you'll be hard-pressed to find 30% of HELM buyers tell you their primary reason for buying these cars is due to their "handling" and "performance" numbers.... Far from it. These are large, full-size luxury sedans, not super sports cars... So, the 7 may be sport-biased, it is simply playing to its genre not necessarily playing to the major needs of its market. May be why its 3rd behind LS/S in sales.... And the sales distance may increase dramatically when the LS460/600hL gets here.
I disagree. IMO all hybrids are still novelty purchases with perhaps the exception of Prius. I say “perhaps” because it has been around for a while and there is a certain demand. However it is nothing like the demand that needs to be created for the higher-ticket cars. Also, there are reasons why Toyota is holding back on Prius production and I don’t think anyone truly knows what this reason is.
Put all these together and you see how this car will be a huge bet for Lexus. The money people are ready for exclusivity What's not to bet big on...
The only way I see exclusivity is for early adopters. Toyota and Lexus are about volume and these cars are designed to sell that way. I am not sure how many people who buy for exclusivity but I can guarantee you one thing, they are not going to come to Lexus for that. They don't even come to Porsche, MB and BMW for that.
As far as it being a big bet, I say it is no bet. I would think Toyota has a lot of smarts and enough resources to withstand a hybrid failure, not that I am saying this will happen. The point is they have eggs in plenty of baskets. It’s probably like any one of us around here taking a hit on a stock that is a small percentage of our portfolio. We’re not going to lose our homes on such a move, it’s a small calculated risk, an investment, not a “huge bet”.
Before I respond to that comment and the rest of the post, let me ask you to clarify. What is this “hero-worshipping” you are referring to? Are you suggesting that Merc1 is my hero?
Well, I see the pomp-pomps rolled out after his downloads and rants on Lexus and Lexfans. I've also seen the adulation he gets for, shall we say, stomping on some of our posts... With the Eurofan cheerleading each other, you refer to Lexfans as "kool aid drinkers". All we do is give our opinions of our fav brands. None is any more important than the other. I'd hope we ALL (me included) tone down the volume of our rhetoric... It'll benefit all, IMO.
Toyota's got more cash than anybody else in the business, and they definitely will survive if hybrids other than the Prius don't really work in the market. However, I think Toyota is betting quite a bit that they will, certainly much more than Honda, and much more than everybody else, who are all still waiting at the shallow end, dipping their toes in the pool.
Honda and VW have eggs in plenty of baskets. Honda is actively developing clean diesel engines for the US market, and VW is working on those funky super-turbo charged engines. Toyota on the other hand seems to be all in with hybrids, at least for now.
Your writing skills are just fine and I enjoy reading your contributions.
Looking forward to your next post.
Regards,
hpowders
I don't think this will make much sense to most people.
This technology will be doomed to the fringes and never be a big seller, IMO.