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Comments
Never said it wasn't and before that crazy grille was added it was the most beautiful car in the segment. The grille has to go. It looks like me when I wake up at 6-6:30 AM - big big yawn.
That RX ad is not my favorite, but it still works very well. Most people probably aren't aware that most luxury cars have swiveling headlights now (anyway, Tucker and Citroen did the swiveling headlight thing LONG before Lexus, Mercedes, or Audi). The RX ad points out a fancy feature on the Lexus people may not be aware of, using a memorable situation. The "dimpled panels" ad for the LS is very similar. They don't have to get into something as boring as mechanicals or seating configurations. Mechanicals are for sports cars, and seating configurations are for minivans. The RX is neither. The point of a TV ad should be to get you to remember the car. The RX ad does that. The Q7 ad does not.
The IS350 ads aim squarely at 3 series buyers, so pretty much all the talk is about its 306 hp and how fast it is. The ES "Is it possible to engineer desire?" ad uses robotic "fingers" to slam home the message of interior luxury. Why cant Audi come up with something clever and memorable like that? Pretty much all of the mags agree that their interiors are magnificent, but I can't remember a single Audi commercial that even mentioned their interiors at all.
The Q7 commercial reminded me of something Mercury or some other brand that has no idea of its mission or what its products are about would do. Play song, show car, wrap it up with "Q7, from the makers of Quattro". I'm already in a coma. Audi isn't like that, they do have great products, you just wouldn't know it by seeing the ad.
More histrionics, aye? Doc, when you say someone is off the wall you should back it up with an iota, a spot of reasoning.
The GS450h has only 7.5 cubic feet of trunk space and the Camry hybrid has 10.6 cubic feet of trunk space.
There is no getting around it. Good idea on paper. Lousy idea in practice.
Have fun driving around in your new Edsel.
Hybrid technology will be just another dinosaur in 5 years.
Funny thing is that he probably won't buy the Edsel, only talk about it.
They will learn the true meaning of "depreciation."
There have been some pretty great ones. The original SC430 ad where it was in a building with a retractable roof was brilliant. Mercedes and BMW have also done very clever and memorable commercials. Why is it that VW commercials are great (the "unpimp mein auto" ads were hilarious) while Audi commercials are consistently terrible?
Well I find lot's of ads entertaining. However I question their efficacy. There’s an old adage in advertising that I subscribe to if an ad sells, it is good.
Why is it that VW commercials are great (the "unpimp mein auto" ads were hilarious) while Audi commercials are consistently terrible?
It’s starts with the marketing department of the advertiser. They choose the ad agency based on several parameters, all of which are questionable, the best being the ad agency’s track record I think. As we have alluded to on occasion it appears that Audi’s US marketing is nowhere, so garbage in garbage out, they might pick duds for ad agencies. Funny thing is when the ads don’t work they blame it on the agency then move on to the next dud.
If I was in marketing I would choose the ad agency based on track record. Demonstrate to me how your work is responsible for sales, not how entertaining they were. Ljflx might have more first-hand knowledge of this because I deal strictly with creative and have the strategies outlined for me without getting involved with the details on that end which are, or should be, pretty research-intensive.
Care to put some money on that? Today's hybrids leave alot to be desired, but sales will improve with technology improvements. And customers might be more willing to live with less trunk space when gas hits $4 or $5 per gallon, which I believe it will in that timeframe.
Maybe in 1977 you would have said the personal computer would prove to be a dinosaur?
Anyway, I would be willing to put up anywhere from $5k to $50k (your choice) on a bet that 2011 worldwide hybrid (gas hybrid, diesel-electric hybrid, and hydraulic hybrid) vehicle unit sales will exceed 2006 worldwide hybrid vehicle unit sales. We would deposit the money with a law firm, in escrow.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
It is a Joy, because the product is even better, and the clients are just as fun (with more money) and there is that quirky eccentric aspect just like VW.
What frustrates me more than anything is the Marketing. Audi, continues to do the same A4 or A6 around the same twisty road and shows our Racing Heritage. In the racing world we dominate, but in the US nobody really cares about F-1 or rally driving. It is not something that we are passionate about.
The Q7 commercial, yet beautifully filmed does not capture the emotion that people who buy Audis in the U.S have. Why does VW do such a great job with TV and Print and Audi can not? Yes we are on our way to a Tier One Brand. We have the product that in my mind blows some of the competition away, but why are we so aroggant to show it off?
Google Audi commericals, and you will see some great, funny and award winning commercials......In Europe. We need something like those that people will remember and associate us with, and want people to check us out and find out that we are better and less expensive than alot that is out there......
I had to vent.
HOpe I have a job tommorow. :P
Actually, despite the current shortcomings I'd love to have one just to experience the mechanical aspects of the drive train on a daily basis and doing my own mileage/performance/city/highway tests. Having the GS 450h for a while would be just dandy. I would even consider buying one for the short term and flipping it if the resale was good enough. I suppose it's too early to know though.
Hey hey... that's something we don't do here ;-)
(I wouldn't do it at work either.)
But I have to retract my former post. It seems Lexus is indeed getting serious about performance as they've showed an RX350 being hustled around a racetrack by a professional driver with the poor owner to never know what it is to drive his vehicle. A very good look, and huge step foward for Lexus as they've showed the atheleticism of the 3.5L V-6 engine in the commercial.
Now to the Q7. The ad pretty much sucked. No arguement out of me on that one Doc and LJ. They could've done much better than that. The A8 when new for '04 ad was vastly better, albeit they stopped showing it after 1 year. I did however just watch a new Q7 ad featuring a "4-Seasons" type layout, which undoubtedly zeroed in on the quattro system and the trick 4-level air suspension, which did get some interest out of me.
EARTH TO AUDI: I love your cars, but please invest in some great marketing strategies as people will know who we are! Other than that, I'm lovin' it.
Bye Bye hybrids.
Hope we are all here (including Edmunds) in 5 years to find out.
And I predict we will still be arguing about reliability.
Another thing that sort of turns me off about hybrids is that it seems to me that a lot of people buy them as a political statement and that the far left has adopted them as their savior vehicle. So I guess you could say that I don't like hybrid politics either.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Should have been perfected before releasing it on an all too gullible public.
Nobody on Fox News drives one. :P
How much of the "almost 10 grand extra" is for (non-hybrid-related) equipment that is optional on the non-hybrid trim? $6000? $7000?
When I drive my RX "nearly all around town" I get only 16 mpg.
Cyclone4... You said you want the 600h. Can you tell us why? Is it the LWB, hybrid, or other?
Thanks.
Secondly, Hpowders is the only real naysayer and his reasons are noteworthy. He seems to be a sharp value buyer and this is characteristic of Toyota/Lexus buyers also.
Lastly, I don’t hear much enthusiasm from the Lexus brand fans in terms of their buying interest. I think they are reluctant for the same reasons as everyone else. The value and benefits are not overwhelming at this point.
Is the technology noteworthy? Indeed, I believe it is. But I think there could be inherent marketing problems that Toyota does not have sussed. This is expensive convoluted stuff and I am not convinced that the negatives come out in the wash.
The ultra-capacitors don't hold that much power total, but they are compact, light, and shouldn't "wear out". The idea is that the x5 could be supplied with a small engine, perhaps a 3.0L but still perform like the big stomping 4.8L v8.
However, unlike the lexus approach, the car wouldn't get very far on electric only. There is no stealth mode, running on electric-only, and no future for plug-in hybridization. It's more geared (hah!) for quick shots of power, such as merging and at lights. Less potential but less compromise. I think the toyota approach is better for "regular" cars, BMW's more for the performance/lux cars. But it's hard to say what will happen over the next few years. Tech changes may chance what's feasible.
BMW is also testing a steam engine that runs off the heat from the exhaust and helps drive the crank. This is a smart idea, because it both adds 15% to the power and increases fuel economy by 15% as well. AND it makes a lot of sense to pair with the hybrid, as the steady steam power could recharge the batteries/capacitor with little to no drag on normal driving.
But this isn't really germane to high-end luxury, is it?
Have any of you guys driven a 2004+ xj8?
I only care if you actually drove it.
But this isn't really germane to high-end luxury, is it?
Well the LS 600hl sure is a striking contrast to Prius.
BTW, how are you doing with the Boxster? Are you still interested?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
There are several reasons why I am going with the LS600HL:
1)I am pretty certain that it will be one of the most, if not the most, technologically advanced vehicles to date.
2)AWD and LWB.
3)My wife and I own an RX400H and I really enjoy driving a hybrid. I find it fun to try to get great gas mileage. BTW, my wife averages about 25-26 in the city and about 27 on the interstate. I tested it in the city a couple times and averaged between 38 and 40 mpg. The reason my wife only gets about 25-26 is because she makes a lot of short trips. That really eats away at the gas mileage (due to warm up period). This next generation of hybrids from Lexus should be improved.
4)I look forward to its spectacular power when needed.
5)I look forward to its fuel economy.
6)I am pleased to do something good for the environment.
Well said, and that of course IS the point.
I would advise anyone serious about purchasing a hybrid to wait at least 6 months to a year because eventually a point will be reached when hybrids will inevitably be achieving close to pricing parity (dare I say one day hybrids may actually sell for LESS than their corresponding gasoline-powered sedans?) with their equivalent traditionally-powered sedans as inventory builds and builds because the American consumer won't be taken in by this.
But if I told you two years ago the 400h would stay at 230HP, but give you 30MPG........
Houdini, you are one of the few who can squeeze 22 MPG out of a two ton SUV, so I understand your point.
For the rest of us, 40% better economy, plus a noticable power upgrade, for an extra 3k over a loaded 330 is a good deal.
And you still have tons of cargo room!
BTW, Edmunds seems to love the Camry Hybrid
DrFill
Yes, i am still interested in the boxster. I have toyed with the idea of a z4. It's a lot cheaper (lease deal/free maintainance), but i think i'd still feel sad whenever a boxster cruised by. Not only do i find the boxster much better looking, but everything i've seen indicates that it is the better car.
I am often tempted to just go to the dealer and get a boxster/ However, I'm waiting until my living/parking situation upgrades to get a car i'll notice dings on again before transforming appreciating assets to a depreciating one.
In a year or so i think i'll be ready to jump to a house + 2 car garage, then i was thinking of boxster for fun, and a big cruiser for other occasions. Hence the xj8 question. 2 year old CPO ones seem to go for ~35K, and i find it interesting for that money.
Plus, the S is getting a nice HP boost for 2007!
dave
In today's market out here in Cali, the small cars are in huge resurgence.... Many people now want a gas-efficient used small car (budget under $15K) - Civics, Corollas, Sentras, etc., as a second/third/fourth car in the stable... The prices of these cars in the used market have gone up, due to demand. In fact, you'd be better off buying them new... Check out the prices in your neck of the woods and see what you find...
And what is behind the resurgence of the small cars ? Of course, the high-price of gasoline. Many people are looking for small gas-efficient cars they can tote around town instead of their big gas-guzzling sedans, SUVs or p/u trucks. The Civics, Corollas, xA, xB, Fit, Yaris, etc.. have become quite hot cars to buy for under $15K or thereabouts. So now for about a $199/mth payment, you can own one of these cars and get >25mpg.
Alternatives are: you can spend $25K to buy a Prius. $30K to buy an Accord-H. $30K+ for a Camry-H... $25K for a Civic-H.... See the difference ?
Hybrids will go the way gas consumption and oil prices go. If prices go UP, hybrids (of all types) increase in demand. If gasoline prices go DOWN, so goes hybrids.... But, if you are a betting man, you'd not bet against oil prices going up, and concomittant gasoline prices at the pump. Geo-politics, law of demand-and-supply, and novelty and coolness will make H-powered cars/sedans/trucks/SUVs popular and growing in sales for the foreseeable future.
That, my friend, you can take to the bank....
You never seem to get this Doc, but the LS430 only beat the S430 not the S500 which is what Motor Trend put over the LS430 back in 2001. This about the LS having beat the "S-Class" really isn't accurate because the LS hasn't beat the entire range of S-Class cars, only the S430. I have seen where the S500 beat the LS430 back in 2001 in MT so it isn't a cut-n-dry as you'd like to incorrectly blur it here. Also Motor Trend put the A8 over the LS430 much more recently.
The LS is a better car than the Germans, if things like interior, drivetrain, smoothness, fit and finish, braking, ride, seating, features, acceleration, price means anything.
Only by certain comparos, it isn't unaminous.
As I've stated long before this discussion, C&D has the most well-thought out, balanced comparisons. They don't over-value sports car moves, they always have a scorecard so it isn't too subjective to find a winner, and they back up their objective results with logical conclusions.
As I've stated before you only use the comparos that put Lexus on top and saying that the rest don't know what they're talking about is just plain nonsense. Now when the others put the LS first, which they have sometimes you'll use them, but when they don't you knock their criteria. That is the oldest crybaby excuse in the book Doc.
Is that the best you can do? So you admit the S-Class has been an "also-ran" for years? Out on vacation with a whimper!
Nope, back unfortunately to read the same Lexus rantings. What you don't see here is that the S-Class is still the world's benchmark and was just recently surpased in the later years of its (W220) life, unlike the SC430 which was a loser and a dullard from day one. It has never been the benchmark and has had its windshield handed to it from the time it came to market. Again the S500 beat the LS430 back when both cars were relatively new in a MT comparo. The SC430 has never, ever beat the SL. Ever. Period. Big difference.
That very same C&D comparison had the LS dead last in objective dynamic handling numbers! Fortunately, C&D doesn't say if it is a class-best handler, the car has no value, like you do.
Again, I thought we had settled this about the LS430's handling. I don't count the car out because it doesn't have handling as good as the German cars in the class and I think you and I settled this with your addmission that the LS430 didn't handle as well as the German cars here? The only reason I went on with that is because of the absurd notion from other Lexicans about how the LS430 would handle if it had this and if it had that. The problem is that die-hard Lexus fans can't admit anything and will tell you that anything the LS can't do best doesn't matter which is why this about the LS and its handling was about the most rediculous conversation going. Anyone who knows anything about handling wouldn't even mention the term in the same sentence with the LS430 and this about a what if is just a big fat excuse for the exhausted Lexusfans who can't accept anything else.
M
I find it equally hilarious that you'd even care what an "autorag" has to say, but I guess you agree with all the comparos that put the LS first. Lastly I don't think it was I that said that piece from C&D about the LS being a dancer in slippery shoes was one writer's opinion. I believe that was designman. At least try to keep the accusations accurate.
M
Didn't change the subject, I brought up the SC430 to remind you and other Lexusfans that Lexus isn't perfect because reading this about Lexus "mania" would lead the uninformed to think Lexus has all winners when they have some constant comparo losers like everyone else. I know you don't want to go into who changes the subject, it certainly isn't me. I'm accused of pounding the subject to death if anything, not changing it. I don't have to.
BTW, "Team Europe" only echoed what the press/writers found when they tested certain Lexi and found them to be "Buick-like". The SC430 would have done GM a helluva job as a Rivera, which is what it looks (and drives like according the press).
M
I really can't take issue with that if that is what you've felt. If anything I've always read/heard that Audis don't hold up over time compared to a MB/BMW in that regard, but not much on how they didn't feel as good from new, but these things vary with butts....lol.
M
There has already been such a test way back in 2001, the only time the LS430 faced the S500 and the S500 won but of course that old test won't be acknowledged here, only the old tests that matter.
M
Sorry Oac, but it all sounds very desperate to me. I said that I didn't think you knew anything about handling, nothing snide or anything nearly on the level of your comeback about "having a real job". You're seemingly forgetting what you write from day to day here. It was YOU that took it there not me. All that about what Lexus provides you is yet another diversion from what the debate was in the first place. Who in the world was debating what Lexus provides you or anything like that. It isn't my fault you make your (always) pro-Lexus post so easy to disprove. See how you never addressed the original issue here, only bogged it down in all this needless talk about everything else but that.
No handling isn't all I've got to hang my hat on concerning a Mercedes over a Lexus, but why go into that again when you'll simply say that all of it doesn't matter. Nothing matters unless Lexus is the winner in a particular category or capability.
The point of the discussion before you turned into something else was that the S-Class was a better handler than the LS430, something you couldn't admit when nearly everyone else here could. Now of course since you still can't concede that you'll revert back to how the LS was superior to the old S-Class anyway, read: I won't admit this about the LS430's handling so I'll go back to square one.
Like I have said, repeatedly, NO one has tested an LS with 18" rims AND the Euro suspension against a comparable S. If you know of it, let's hear it. I am sure YOU have not driven such a car against your much vaunted S-class, despite your holier-than-thou attitude and knowledge about MBs and the LS.
Likewise the car was rarer than a VW Phaeton and because of that no mag ever tested one. Tuff I guess. Again, you're reaching for something rarer than henn's teeth, but then you turn around and talk about the "real world" yet no one really ever bought this LS430 with the Euro option. That make no sense and contridicts your earlier posts.
As to why I don't go around kicking tires every weekend cos I got better things to do, sorry if that offends your automotive spirits.... I got lots better things to do than indulge in a one-track-minded automotive digest like some people here on Edmunds. I don't need to drive all these cars to form an opinion, just as your not owning any of these cars make you an "informed" poster... Sheesh !
Like I stated before this these types of comments are your typical last gasp when you know you're done with a particlar point that can't be made. Now one doesn't need to drive the car to form an opinion on it? Apparently you need to as far as handling goes and you'd really need to be deft at finding that LS430 Euro. Now I don't have to own the car to make an informed post? Another reversal of something previous implied (for years). How in the world is one to be informed on any of these cars without driving them?
M
Likewise it would seem "fair" to me to say that the LS430 beat the S430, not the entire "S-Class". Your top of the line Lexus has won against the entry-level S-Class. It isn't as if the LS430 has beaten the entire "S-Class".
The only time the S500 was compared to the LS430, the S500 won.
M
Nope, I was gone for a few days I'm back and there is nothing here to spin. This about the handling is as cut and dry as the LS430's reliability and quality. Problem is I have no trouble admitting what the previous S didn't do so good compared to the LS430, but a select few Lexusfans can't admit squat about the LS430 leading the viewers here to think the LS430 was perfect which it was not.
M
M
Really? So I guess the non-average LS430 buyer who really can't afford to buy (not lease) an S-Class doesn't count. This is a very old argument about price and yet it still fails to sink in here that price does make a difference sometimes. To think that it doesn't is equally "weak" thinking IMO.
M
Actually it wouldn't because those cars aren't built by the same group of folks even though they are under the same corparate unbrella. Also, none of those cars look/drive like the lesser cars you've incorrectly linked them too. You Lexus fans can't have it both ways. Toyotas are about boring, reliabile, high quality transportation and that is what Lexus does also with more luxury. The only Lexus models that fundamentally differ from this (or at least try to) are the GS and IS, which are supposed to be sportier. Funny thing is though is that they aren't a match for the sportier cars in their respective classes kinda like those supposedly sportier Toyotas like the Camry SE and Corolla "S". Toyota's basic fundamentals in carmaking crosses all of their models no amount of Lexus spin can change that. Lexus can't even escape their basic Toyota-based thinking/roots long enough to build a truly sporty car to rival BMW, like they said they would. That may change in the next 18 months, but in the now it hasn't. Like a Lexus and Toyota are so far apart in execution, that is ridiculous.
M
M
M
The problem here is that you've maintain for the longest now that price is not an issue and all I and others have said is that is for some buyers, never at any point said that it was an issue for all buyers or that LS430 buyers were "poor" or "poorer" than S-Class buyers, that is what you got from it because no one has said that. No LS430 defender except maybe one has ever even entertained the notion about price being at least one factor in the LS430's sales lead. Yet we hear this constantly about sales yet not all of the factors behind this are ever addressed only that it proves that the LS is "better".
No one said that a great deal or what percentage of S-Class buyers pay cash either. Some could go the traditional route with a trade/down payment and finance the rest. That would make a difference to those types of buyers with a 20-30K price difference staring them in the face between a LS and a S-Class.
So if most owners of the LS and S drive these on lease purchases, do factors like interest rates, money factor, promotions, discounts, etc.... play a significant role in the drive-out price of that lease ? That's when you look at the 3-year timeline when many of these cars go off-lease. What are they truly worth, not the hyper inflated/bloated MSRP these cars are listed for ? And show us which S-class/LS430 is selling at MSRP, eh
Back to the same argument with a switch to 3-year values because the first part about sales and what role price might play in those sales just can't be accepted so we'll now revert to something else.
BTW, the new S550 is selling at or near MSRP as will the LS460. Neither will stay at the level forever though.
M
The command system is fun to use as long as you are not driving. The little plastic cover of the phone module was broken in my test car which shows you how clever the design is! But the leather was nice. I also liked the gear selector (I wish the new LS had it). Compared to the interior of the A8, the S550 feels more techi but the A8 feels more luxurious with better materials. The 7 feels techi with low grade materials (the wood is really bad) and scores third on the German list. To me functionality and feel of the interior is more important than the exterior looks.
The power and over all feel of the S550 was better than my LS430 but not so much that I go out of my way to buy the car. If the new LS460 substantially reduces the body roll of the current LS and provides better seats, there is no reason for me to buy a german Luxo Performance Car. The performance upgrade they provide over the LS does not compensate for their other short comings. Otherwise, there will be more test drives :P
I have. A lot more space and much less clumsy in the twisties than the old car, but its no 750 or Quattroporte. There's still plenty of body roll if you push it hard, and the steering is fairly light, which takes away some of the fun. Thanks to the aluminum diet, the six-speed auto is able to make the most of the adequate power available from the standard V8, and it feels pretty quick.
Why I don't like the XJ8 is mostly due to the interior. The exterior design is a lot like the old car and doesn't set me on fire, but I drive a LS430, so clearly exterior styling is not my top priority in a luxury sedan. The interior though is almost a straight copy\paste from the old car. Everything looks 10 years old. The switch gear on the center stack is just awful, like Jaguar raided the Ford Focus parts bin, and the rest of the materials inside aren't much better. The most disappointing thing though is the leather quality. Back in the Connolly days, Jag had some of the best in the business. In the current XJ, its barely average.
I can definitely understand why they aren't selling, there are just too many better cars out there.