High End Luxury Cars

nealm1 · August 2002

What do you make of this statement, from Edmunds' First Look at the E class:
"a luxury car is about an air of exclusivity, that not everyone can own one." Maybe that's the case with some -- maybe it explains those willing to pay 60+ for a 6 cyl. E -- but I couldn't give a fig how "exclusive" the car I drive might be. I bought my current car (an LS430) because it is amazingly comfortable, it gives my family lots and lots of room, I love the luxurious interior (where I spend my time), I love the stereo, the power, the rep for reliability, etc. Don't take this personally, but I couldn't care less what you drive, or whether you like what I drive. If I wanted to drive something rare, I would have bought an Aztec. Nobody in his right mind would buy a 5 series in Washington if "exclusivity" were the goal; they are on every corner. People buy them b/c they are great cars. I think the editors at Edmunds are operating on some dangerously misguided conceptions. Thoughts?

adu1 · August 2002

Well, unfortunately (from my perspective), exclusivity probably forms a big part of many buyers' motivations for purchasing a luxury car. But, as you allude to, it's a pretty superficial basis for selling cars. And I wonder whether some of these makes aren't risking losing that appeal over the long run.

I'm not the only one who wonders about that risk:

"In an apparent reference to DaimlerChrysler's Mercedes-Benz line, [GM "North America chief" Robert] Lutz said 'a German company' is making a mistake by marketing luxury cars in the $20,000 to $30,000 range so the company can cover its fixed costs. He made his comments while seated next to Dieter Zetsche, Chrysler group CEO."

http://www.autonews.com/article.cms?articleId=40298&a=a&bt=Traverse+City

I say, "Want exclusivity? Buy an Aztek! You'll be the only one on your block!"

ljflx · August 2002

Lack of common sense pervades many things. Given current car pricing insecurity and the need for prestige is the only "common sense" conclusion for buying a 6cyl MB E-class (or any other make sedan) above $60k. I'd be embarrased to tell anyone I got taken to the cleaners like that if it was me, particularly given my financial background. Long-term - banking on prestige to keep prices high in such a competitive arena where there are better made cars will prove to be a house of cards.

merc1 · August 2002

You guys are back on that again huh? Anyone who pays 60K for any car other than LS430 is an idiot. Where oh where does it say that a E320 costs 60K? Lexus owners never cease to amaze with their justification issues. Edmunds says stupid things for sure, no doubt...but that isn't Mercedes' fault.

M

adu1 · August 2002

"Anyone who pays 60K for any car other than LS430 is an idiot."

Hey, merc! Take it over to the "Mercedes vs. Lexus: Old School vs. New School! Which is Better?" forum. This WAS a nice, respectable forum...

;-)

ljflx · August 2002

Many insecure people are very smart and quite successful which is partly why lux cars do well in the first place. Some of course are idiots. Some are very smart criminals like those who ran Enron. But I did say any car make not just MB. For the record I think it'd be quite foolish to buy a $61k 6cyl E over a $55k BMW 540i as well. Heck - even Automobile - when it chose the LS430 as the best sedan over $40k - made a statement that went something like "it was for those who were secure".

adu1 · August 2002

I'm struck by the contrast between your claimed quote,

"even Automobile - when it chose the LS430 as the best sedan over $40k - made a statement that went something like 'it was for those who were secure',"

and a claimed quote from another forum,

"I forgot which British car magazine, it was around 1997 or so...but one of the articles said that [Lexus products] were cars for people 'with no imagination and culture'."

Assuming that these are both reasonably accurate quotes, does this tell us something about American vs. British "baggage" re luxury cars? Maybe Americans are more likely to assess a vehicle on terms less-weighted by prejudices regarding a marque being up "upstart," etc? (Sounds reasonable, since our country itself began as an "upstart.")

And if *that* holds, then we can perhaps understand ONE reason why new luxury marques would focus on the U.S. for their efforts (on top of the U.S. being one big, rich market)...

Of course, none of this means that there aren't Americans who are willing to pay more for "heritage" (or even shell $$$ out for a British "title") because of their insecurities. Just, perhaps, not as high a percentage as in other markets.

merc1 · August 2002

Thats just the problem with most Lexus fans, they're short on facts and long on justification. Where or when has anyone paid 61K for a E320? The car doesn't cost that much, and if anyone optioned one up that far they'd be better off just getting a E430/E500. I wouldn't pay 61K for a E320 either. Now you know I could care less about what Automobile deems the best over 40K car to be because they're at odds with their own readers who named the S-Class as the best luxury car in the U.S. period. Furthermore it makes no sense for them to draw the line at 40K when a LS430 can't be had anywhere near 40K. That makes no sense.

I've said that many times before, not everyone wants a car like an LS430, no matter what the price.

You and others always point to how insecure people who buy anything but an LS430 are. The way I see it Lexus owners are the insecure ones. Why, because no other group constantly points out why they bought their cars and how everyone else is just plain dumb for buying anything else. If the LS430 was such this car then the S-Class and 7-Series would cease to exists. Why is a person insecure if they don't want a copy of a previous Benz that doesn't provide any excitement behind the wheel other than isolation? Is it possible for someone to simply NOT LIKE the LS430 and want something that doesn't look like and drive like a Avalon?

adu1,

I don't know when you arrived here, but look back through this topic. I've kept it going all this time and feel as though it is mine now.

M

nealm1 · August 2002

we undoubtedly disagree, but unless you agree to be restrained by the facts, we can't have an intelligent dialogue.

1. I never said, nor do I believe, that "anyone who pays 60K for any car other than LS430 is an idiot." There are MANY cars that offer significantly different trade-offs that I can easily understand. You might want an X-5 or a 540i. Maybe you want a convertible or a coupe. You may like the styling of the Q better. What I DON'T understand is paying anything close to that much for an E class (AMG aside). I know you will contend that it is "sportier" than the LS; I have driven the car (current version) and I'm just not buying it. You want sport, get a 5. The E is a nice car with a luxury-car ride, but it is WAY over priced. There may be reasons for paying that much beyond a religious devotion to pedigree and "tradition," but I can't fathom them and you haven't mentioned them. And no, I would never call anyone an idiot for a purchasing decision, but I think I have the right to doubt its wisdom. I'm a smart person, but boy have I made some purchasing mistakes in my time.

2. Where did I get the pricing? Edmonds said "pricing starts at around $53,000 for the E320 and can climb to dizzying heights if you tack on some of the above-mentioned options." You had an exchange with someone on another board about his $68k E500. A ridiculous price, as even you understood on that board. So I extrapolated that a semi-loaded E 6cyl. would run about 60k. I may be off by a 1,000, but I don't think so.

3. Even if I am off by a k or 2, the point (i.e., the secondary point I was trying to make) is the same. The E is vastly overpriced when compared to it competition. I can't think of an explanation other than DC can get away with it because people fawn over the 3 pointed star.

4. The MAIN point of the message had little to do with the E (which I like, apart from the price) but more to do with Edmund's observation that people buy luxury cars for the "look-at-me" factor. I didn't, and I don't know anyone personally who did. While I am sure ljflx is right -- some people do (and that is pathetic) -- but I think most buy these cars b/c they like them and enjoy driving them, not b/c they want heads to turn. When you buy one, let me know the rationale.

nealm1 · August 2002

And by the way, I just used Edmunds to calculate what a CURRENT E would cost. According to them, with a 48k base price, an E320 nicely (but not fully) optioned would have a MSRP of just a hair under 60k. Since Edmunds says the base MSRP is going up to 53 (a FIVE THOUSAND DOLLAR INCREASE??!!!!), I think it is relatively conservative to estimate that a reasonably well appointed 2003 E 320 will be in the 60k+ neighborhood. Gosh, that sounds like a lot of money for that car.

merc1 · August 2002

Like I said before Lexus folk are always short on facts. You being the perfect example of this. Edmund's first drive was of the E500, not the E320. Fact is the E320 starts around 47K, and one would have to check every option on the list to push the price to 61K.

A E320 DOES NOT COSTS 61K. PERIOD. The E320 starts at $47,615, and the E500 starts at $55,515.

You're telling me to go by facts yet you take a statements like "an climb to dizzying heights if you tack on some of the above-mentioned options" as fact, totally ridiculous.

Yes I contend the E, especially the new E500 is sportier than the LS430. The LS430 by design is an isolation chamber.

No matter how politely you word it, whether you're questioning someone's "wisdom" or whatever you're still basically saying they're stupid for purchasing anything but an LS430.

" Even if I am off by a k or 2, the point (i.e., the secondary point I was trying to make) is
the same. The E is vastly overpriced when compared to it competition. I can't think of an
explanation other than DC can get away with it because people fawn over the 3 pointed
star."

I say you're off by more than 2K, try about 10K+ for the E320 (the car you claimed costs 61K). As far as people "fawning" over the three pointed star well don't feel slighted because the chromed "L" doesn't get as much respect. Lexus fans are always reaching for something. Taking something that Edmunds says and then getting it wrong is the perfect example of this.

You don't think anyone has ever purchased a Lexus for the look-at-me factor? Come on now.

M

merc1 · August 2002

Tell you what why don't you read my above post and/or go to MBUSA and configure a E320 they way you would want one and see if you come up with 61K. The E320 DOES NOT START AT 53K! Now who are you going to believe MBUSA or Edmunds?

M

adu1 · August 2002

"adu1,

I don't know when you arrived here, but look back through this topic. I've kept it going all this time and feel as though it is mine now.

M"

Does this mean no one else should post (or pose possibly interesting questions)?

Further explanation of your intent in writing the words quoted above from post # 1560 would be most instructive (for ALL of the non-merc1 readers of the forum, I'm sure)...

pat · August 2002

No, not necessary, and please don't.

Everyone is welcome to post here, and no one owns the discussion at all. The only rules are, well, they are all in the Membership Agreement which is linked on the left side of this page.

Chief among the terms of that agreement is that civil and respectful discourse be maintained at all times.

Let's remember that we are discussing vehicles and that personal slams, digs and comments of that sort are neither necessary nor appropriate here.

Thanks.

Pat
Sedans Host

adu1 · August 2002

ljflx · August 2002

Are you so MB blinded that you don't see all the justification posts made by MB buyers???

I'm also sure that there are many LS430 buyers as well as other Lexus model buyers that are quite insecure.

Nealm1 - coudn't agree more with your logic.

pat · August 2002

Oh wow. Where are some stats that show "insecure" people are more or less likely to buy x or y or z vehicle.

Come on, folks give it a rest. This is pointless and certainly isn't going to convince any reader (or poster) to believe what you are are trying to say.

Let's move on.

adu1 · August 2002

maxhonda99 · August 2002

I heard today on the news that Mercedes-Benz is going to give current MB owners extended warrranties for free(I think like 2000 to current buyers), because they made false claims of the cars being able to go up to 20,000 miles without oil changes. Supposedly, the Benz dealers forgot to mention to the customer that they probably had to put synthetic motor oil in the car to keep it going 20,000 miles between oil changes. Anyway, the news report also said, alot of people had engine problems because of it. So Mercedes-Benz has agreed with some gov't entity to give free extended warranties to customers who bought cars between 2000 and 2002 or something along those lines.

magnetophone · August 2002

Anyone who'd expect 20,000 miles out of regular oil is nuts - sounds like M-B gave people a little credit and then we figure out they have no common sense.

nealm1 · August 2002

Hacking my way through your syntax, I think your major gripe is the claim that the E320 starts at 53k. You say it doesn't. Fine. You might be right, since I have not been in a Benz dealer to price them. But the quote you dismiss as "totally ridiculous" is not mine IT IS EDMUND'S as I said. This is what EDMUNDS SAID:

"Pricing starts at around $53,000 for the E320 and can climb to dizzying heights if you tack on some of the above-mentioned options." Not me, Edmunds.

See that? PRICING STARTS AT 53K FOR THE 320. Not me, Edmunds.

Undoubtedly you know more than Edmunds about MB's pricing. Undoubtedly you are right and Edmunds is "totally ridiculous." I'm just sure that you're right and EVERYBODY else is wrong.

Before you become start hyperventilating, learn the facts.

ljflx · August 2002

The interesting thing is that on my last trip to London - about two months ago - I saw plenty of Lexus cars on the road. They were mainly the LS400, the LS430 and many many SC430's. I asked the driver what was up and he simply said they were great cars. Maybe they had a change of heart.

adu1 · August 2002

Encouraging! And, remember, some of the quotes that we recall (especially if we can't pinpoint the source) may be pretty dated. Of course, the British have always had something of a thing for "cush" (in addition to a thing for "heritage"), and the LS430 just can't be beat for high-quality "cush" at the price, IMO.

And maybe Lexus IS making greater inroads into some European markets. The U.S. was their principal focus (and the initial cars reflected that) but, with the marque doing so well here, perhaps they're now able to make greater efforts there.

And I think that driver *was* right...!

magnetophone · August 2002

I've seen Lexi in London also, but the numbers show that Mercedes and BMW still sell quite a bit more cars...

whotheman · August 2002

Couldn't happen to a nicer company!

whotheman

adu1 · August 2002

"I've seen Lexi in London also, but the numbers show that Mercedes and BMW still sell quite a bit more cars..."

As one would expect that M-B and BMW would. They've had quite a head start. At *least* as importantly, as stated above, Lexus focused on the U.S. *first* with its product development (and U.S. tastes & needs often DO vary from European ones). As for the future...

(Also, no one should believe that it is somehow in the character of the "traditional" British to be disinterested in automobiles that diverge from pre-existing norms. For example, interestingly -- if admittedly "ancient history" -- CITROENS were even *manufactured* in England through the year 1955.)

jstyle · August 2002

I just got confirmation of the build date on my new E500 and the sales guy said there is and additional (!) $1000 or so for teflon paint protection. Anyone know what the hell is this? No wonder this car is adding $$ up. By the way, anyone getting an new E class must get the full length glass roof, it is incredible!!!

adu1 · August 2002

From Edmunds own site -- Step # 9 of "Ten Steps to Buying a New Car"

Under "Charges You Should Question," they say:

"Teflon coating. No longer needed because of clearcoat paint used on cars today."

Unless, of course, Mercedes somehow uses a remarkably inferior paint process at the factory for its new E-Class... (Seems unlikely.)

I'd say, FIGHT IT!

The URL is:

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying/articles/43091/page009.html

ljflx · August 2002

Actually you will see (at least I did) a lot more MB's than BMW's over there. But Lexus has its foot in the door at this point. Maybe it's the more cushy ride that gives MB the lead and will bring Lexus in. Interesting also was that the drivers of the service I was using (a very large one but the name escapes me) were recommending that the owner of the car service switch over to Lexus cars at the high end and keep VW's at the lower end of the spectrum. By the way my driver thought the old E-class was a piece of garbage but that the new one was a marvelous car - and he had driven the new one. He also thought the LS430 was one of the best riding cars he'd ever been in.

While I was there I got to see one of the "royalty" RR's on the road leading into central London from Heathrow. Incredible how long it was and how high the roof line was. Definitely a highly customized RR. But it was empty.

merc1 · August 2002

Lighten up some I was trying to be funny there, about the me owning the topic.

ljflx,

Nope, I'm not. But the difference with you guys is that you all constantly put down Mercede-Benz as the main reason you bought a Lexus. You and others can't mention Lexus without downing MB in the same sentence. I don't see nearly as many MB people downing Lexus during every breath as much as you guys do.

nealm1,

Now you fancy yourself as being so smart yet you can't or won't do the simple research by going to www.mbsua.com and checking the prices listed there in plain ink, but you'll take Edmunds word for it on a test drive when the ACTUAL prices for the new E were not KNOWN to them. Amazing.

How can you claim the E is so expensive when you don't know the FACTS? FACT is the E320 does not start it 53K, it starts at $47,615 (for the last time). Why don't you do some reasearch before tying to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.

M

wishnhigh1 · August 2002

wowsers!

I just went to mbusa.com. Yep a E320 has an MSRP of $47,616. I built my own. I had blue metallic paint with charcoal leather(very nice looking!). I added the sport package, the sunroof/premium sound package, 4 zone climate control, keyless entry, motorola phone, parktronic, and the power sunshades. Basically everything I would want in this car.

Final price: $62,232. Yikes!

I did the same thing with the E500, and the price came out to $66,147.

Now what is wrong with this picture? Why would I go with a V6 E320, when I could go with an E500 with the same exact options, for 4k more. Are they fooling their customers into thinking they are getting a better value, when they are actually paying more for the options?

ljflx · August 2002

And 4matic will boost it even more.

Merc1 - You are MB's policeman that is for sure and I think anyone who reads the boards knows it. No disrespect intended on that comment but if you don't see the criticism of Lexus in MB buyers posts, thereby in my mind justifying their purchases, you are kidding yourself. Your sensitivity is towards MB thus you tend to see things in that light. It's natural. But one thing I'll tell you - as a friend - is that when you bring the LS430 and an Avalon together in the same sentence you look bad and its also obvious your emotions, and not your normal logic, are doing the talking.

Nealm1 - went over to the E-class board now that the subject has been focused there somewhat and saw an interesting post. Someone over there wants the MB E-500 to deliver everything the LS430 delivers - great ride, luxury interior, super nav system, luxury seats etc. Now the E-500 has a harsher noisier ride, costs about the same, has noticably less luxury, is smaller and has that awful command system. The poster even mentions that Lexus delivers the desired features. But the person still wants an MB because it has the MB badge. This is exactly what your posts are about.

Lastly - I drove the old E-430 several times and thought it was a bad car - not in general terms but relative to its price. It's interesting now that the new model is out how many auto mags have thrashed the old car but never did so when it was a market car.

magnetophone · August 2002

If Lexus could get away with charging the same premiums, they would. To think that the Japanese are suddenly less interested in profits is ridiculous.

carnaught · August 2002

....blast Lexus owners for "downing MB" yet you are relentless with your talk of all Lexus' being ugly, boring, and isolation chambers. Tell me, do you turn off your a/c when it's over 90 outside while riding in your Mitsu so you won't "isolate" yourself from the weather outside. Understand that Lexus buyers want a luxurious and pampered environment in their cars with commensurate performance, which is not numb as you describe. I'm all for spirited debate but your constant theme of trashing Lexus as part of your defending MB gets tiresome. Nobody likes to hear the opinion that their daughter is ugly when you know she's not. One other recurring point you make it that Lexus copies MB. On that point I actually agree with you; they copy AND improve upon them. Now please lighten up and try to make more objective discussion and don't make it a personal affront.

wishnhigh1 · August 2002

automotional...nope. Those are just the options I wanted.

I configured both the E320 and the E500 identically.
The thing I found hard to accept was that options were cheaper on the E500 than the E320, so the price difference was very small. The only reason for this in my mind, is to fool the unsuspecting buyer into thinking they are paying less, but in fact they end up paying more for options.

merc1 · August 2002

The only thing I can say to that is that you're blind if you don't see the clear-as-day-is-long resemblance between a Avalon and a LS430. Are you seriously going to tell me that these two cars don't have the same tallish mis-proportioned body? The side view of the cars are different, but the rear is practically the same. Coming up behind either in traffic you can hardly tell them apart. If the S-Class looks like Ford Taurus (per you) then the Avalon and LS430 are twins! Me liking Mercedes-Benz has nothing to with it.

"It's interesting now that the new model is out how many auto mags have thrashed the old car but never did so when it was a market car. "

That happens with most new car introductions. Why do you and others always try to link such things to MB only? Isn't a new car supposed to improve on the old car's flaws? Wouldn't that make the older car's flaws more apparent?

The difference I see between say you/nealm1 and other Lexus folks is that you try to make it seem like MB's are just junk and that the LS430 is heaven-sent and anyone paying over 55K or so for any other car is making this terminal mistake and that they can't possibly have any sense. I see more MB owners that are understanding of how one could purchase a Lexus than the other way around. Remember V12power, he didn't down Lexus one bit in his logic behind purchasing a Benz.

carnaught,

Yeah sure. Why don't you read what this debate was/is about before you accuse me of anything. You talk about making things personal then you make jokes about what I drive, typical.

M

merc1 · August 2002

The problem with that is hardly no one is going to load up an E320 like that and if they did they'd be silly not to get the E500. The current car was almost never sold with that many options. Most E320's are sold with only a few options. You can "configure" a Mercedes almost infinitely, but very rarely is that actually done in the real world.

M

wishnhigh1 · August 2002

Merc...why exactly is the E320 sport package $3,800, but on the E500 it only costs $1,375?

I have a feeling that people dont option out the E320, because the options are so damn expensive!

merc1 · August 2002

Good question, the only thing I can see is that you're upgrading to 17 inch wheels on the E320 Sport compared the E500 which comes with 17in wheels standard. With the E500 you are only getting a wider tire, with the E320 you're uping the wheel size as well. I don't doubt that the options are skewed/priced in a manner to push the E500 if you're thinking about loading up a E320.

M

ljflx · August 2002

There are your emotions again. Where on earth did anyone say MB is junk? You just read (or imagined)it that way. Find a post where any of us said that. I said this limo driver in London said the old E was a piece of garbage. I'm sure he meant relative to price as well because the car certainly is not that. That's his opinion anyway and not mine. Given he drove the cars quite often for a living he should know something about them. He told me the cars had reliability problems which is why the service was going to move to Lexus. I said that the old MB E-430 was a bad car relative to a $60k price but it's a wonderful car at say $45k-$48k. Price is relative you know. But you tend to compare a $95k car to a $60k car without even thinking about the price differential. That's unheard of in daily life.

I'll give you my hosest opinions here:

MB's - great cars - badly overpriced and sell at those price points due to image. S-55 and the likes should never come into discussions on ordinary car boards because they are not mainstream cars. Stick to ordinary MB models. A Lexus no cost sport option should not be compared to a very expensive AMG option. When they bring in L-tuned that will be a different story but guaranteed it will be a fraction of AMG's cost. MB quality is dissapointing for cars at those price levels. Look at V-12 power and others. They actually got rid of the cars - stayed with MB but they must have a lot more tolerance for reliability issues than I or many Lexus buyers ever would.

Lexus cars - hate to say this because it's against my constitution - but given their quality and reliability they might actually be underpriced. Great cars. Don't go overboard on handling because it's not needed and rarely used anyway.

automags - they forget buyers of lux cars live in big cities with congested highways. Comparing cars as if we are going to drive on racetracks is crazy.

carnaught · August 2002

......tell me how I "made a joke of what I drive" by just mentioning it.

"Why don't you read what this debate was/is about before accusing me of anything...."
There ya go again!

Lighten up, man.

wishnhigh1 · August 2002

Merc, ljflx made a good point about your comparisons.

Rarely will ANYONE, except those with absolutely so much money that they cant keep track of it, compare purely on a class by class basis. They have a set price limit...and they try not to go over that.

I do not know how you seem to think that the SL and the SC are competitors. There is a $30,000 price difference!!! Sure they both are two seat convertibles(lexus back seats dont count). But if that is the case, why dont we compare the Pontiac Bonneville and the Mercedes S class? What about the Camry Solara and the CLK430 vert?

How many people do you know, even those looking at luxury cars, that will cross shop cars that are $30,000 apart?

merc1 · August 2002

Ok whatever, me having an opinion has nothing to do with my emotions, I'm just so tired of reading the BS in here. It's ridiculous. You and others constantly reach for any little thing and blow it all out of proportion. Just like now you're saying I'm comparing a 95K car to a 60K car. Where did I do that? Where? I said nothing about the S55.

Lexus' cars underpriced, thats about the most ridiculous thing you've yet said.

wishnhigh1,

You think so huh? Do you even know what "comparision" he was talking about. If you mean someting dealing with the S55 then you're as lost as he is because I haven't mentioned the S55 in this round. Period. If the SC and SL aren't competitors then the S430/S500 and LS430 aren't either right? Don't they have a 20K base price difference too?

M

ljflx · August 2002

You've mentioned such things (comparisons that are so widely different in price) many times. I read one recently on the SC board. I've read many such comments in the past or maybe wishinhigh and I just imagined them. BTW a $95k SL should blow away a $61k SC but it doesn't - not by a long shot - and I've now driven both. It's the same story as usual - a bit more handling vs. a plushier ride. MB is making the interior more fashionable - finally - but the SC is still the nicer interior to "live" in.

I'll leave you with one last comment and I'm really done with this.

I've read your posts calling the LS430 and other Lexus models boring so many times I need a calculator to keep track of them. When Lexus does bring in the handling and you can't make the boring comment - like on an IS - you say it lacks luxury. I read today in a post of yours that the LS430 rides like an Avalon - I hope you're not serious about that one but given your dislike of Lexus I wouldn't be surprised. Yet unless something changed very recently you've never driven an LS430. So how is it that you are such an expert on it being a boring car - in your opinion of course. Well I thought about that and the only time I came across the boring comment in any article was when a NY Times reporter preferred a Maxima over the LS430 for whatever her ridiculous reasons. Now where did I read the boring posts - yours - countless times and many S-class buyers most of whom didn't even take the LS430 out for a test ride. V-12 power was one of the few who did and I'll respect his opinion but obviously he was looking for a lot more growl and power as his name implies. Another honest poster agonized over the decision of S vs. LS for months and went with the S - which later gave him lots of problems and he had to trade it in - due to style preference. If I remember right he even put a deposit down on an LS430. So for all your boring comments - you've made them with no basis - other than hearsay - most of which came from German car lovers who seem - imo - to need to justify their purchases by thrashing Lexus.

Enough said - I'm tired of this as well but from a totally different viewpoint than you.

merc1 · August 2002

Well first of all before I say anything about the SL500 and SC430....let me ask do they or do they not compete against each other? Secondly, I'd like to know how the SL500 doesn't blow away the SC430. All the SC430 has going for it is a fancier (tacky to me) interior, stereo and nav system. That in itself is why I label Lexus' cars boring and yawnish, they aren't about driving they're about isolation even more so than Mercedes-Benz. I have never seen so many people harp about a sound system as being one of the main reasons for buying a 60K car!

The SC430 doesn't have anywhere near the technical specification or equipment of the SL. Peirod. The SC430 is outdone at nearly everything.

Sure you're read where I've compared cars with widely ranging price tags, but I thought we were talking about the E-Class and LS430, which is how this latest "discussion" got started.

Yep, I'll knock the IS300 till they redesign it. If Mercedes made a car that different from the rest of their lineup, you and others would be all over it for days on end. Yet Lexus makes a small sports sedan with a Toyota Corolla interior and it's some type of god-send. Sure the car is a good handler, but compared to the ES300 it's interior is a joke for a Lexus.

"I read today in a post of yours that the LS430 rides like an Avalon."

My friend please go back and READ what I said. I said it LOOKS like an Avalon, I said nothing about how it rode. But since you bring it up, are they really that far apart in ride, I mean Toyota's philosphy is pretty much the same across the board. Of course the LS430 would and should ride better, i.e even more isolated. I never agreed with any NY Times reporter about their preference of a Maxima over a LS430, that wasn't me.

Lastly if you havent' seen the word boring when it comes to Lexus' car you aren't reading the right sources. Boring is almost mentioned when talking about the ES300 and LS430.

Like so many times before we're at total opposite ends of this, but you can't tell me you haven't seen where reviewers constantly harp about Lexus' cars being non-involving and boring. Have you seen the latest review of C&D on the ES300? "Not able to invoke a hint of excitement" or something to that extent was said.

M

merc1 · August 2002

I don't think you looked hard enough if you couldn't find any posts on the S-Class board in which some passed on the LS430 dues to two main things, styling and it's completely isolating character. I see more than a few references to Buicks when talking about Lexuses, especially when talking about the LS430 and ES300. Even C&D said that about the SC430. Now before you say it, I'm not saying they're Buicks.

You're right I haven't driven the LS430, but answer me this has it truly become any more involving from the previous 1995-2000 model? I've driven that model more than a few times and I haven't seen anywhere that the LS430 has become so much sportier relative to the previous model.

I'll ask you this just like I asked wishinhigh, why compare the LS430 to the S-Class since the price difference is so great, what makes the SC430 vs SL500 debate so different from the S430/S500 vs LS430 debate?

M

sweetjeldorado · September 2002

The new E class is pretty nice and looks nicer than the current model and the technology is pretty impressive.

I could somewhat understand its high price from the base model because of its advance technology, features and such ilk. The E class is not a 5 series and not trying to be but the car is more involved with road feel, outside noises and sporty character.

The E class looks like it sets the standard in its class and makes the competition look bad (technology-wise that is).

But still, there is no way I will pay near $60,000 for a V6 E class even $50,000 is ridiculous as well.

Now who says that Lexus's isolation from the road, lack of handling, cloud-like ride is boring? Just because someone's description of the Lexus is boring to him does not mean that it is boring to a Lexus owner. Who says that harsh ride, rough exhaust note, loud and harsh engine noise is fun behind a sports car? It could be boring to have all those things in a sports car.

Lexus cars are different from Mercedes cars but to say Mercedes or Lexus is better than one another is silly.

Both of them are great cars but to a different degree.

J "CaddyLac"

carnaught · September 2002

......well said!

ljflx · September 2002

Well said for sure.

Merc1 - the E-class/LS discussion got started on price comparatives of 6cyl E vs. LS430. No technical issues were involved. Nealm1 just tried to state how crazy that was, and except for you, found plenty of agreement. Even you would be hard pressed to say that a 6cyl E could compete with a V-8 of just about any pedigree. Now let's end this and I promise I will never say another negative thing about MB on this board because you simply can't handle it.

Common sense - maybe its me or maybe it's a bragging rights thing. But when I was behind the wheel of the SL the only thing I noticed was a bit tighter road feel and the three pointed star. This was a 15 min drive. All the techno wizardry seems wasted - at least 99% of the time you are behind the wheel. I don't pay $35k extra for things I may need 1% of the time. The SC handled plenty well, rode nicer and had the nicer interior and the better stereo. That and the ability to go from 0-60 with plenty of torque is what I care most about. The excess stuff seems to happen everywhere. I bought a Denon AVR-4802 receiver a while back and compared it against Denon's 5803 and Onkyo's top of the line. The 5803 had it all including 170 watts per channel. The 4802 and the Onkyo had it all also (multiple component HD inputs, 8 optical inputs etc) but the latter two were 125 watts and 130 watts. Now if I put the 125 watt up to a minus 10 setting I will go deaf in my house. If I put it in the plus level it may cause the house to explode. So why bother spending another $1200 dollars on all that extra wattage. Sorry for the sidebar but this discussion just reminded me of my receiver research.

adu1 · September 2002

"Yep, I'll knock the IS300 till they redesign it. If Mercedes made a car that different from the rest of their lineup..."

C230 Coupe, perhaps? (And, if we extend our discussion to the European market -- as some posters tend to do -- then add A-Class, V-Class, Vaneo...)

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