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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I read them a long time ago. Some of your quotes:

    "I love this car (the GS)"

    "I've got to get this car and get a great deal."
    ( or something to that equivalent)

    "I love the styling"

    I'll leave it at that. The GS was a hot car with no lease subsidies at that time. Somewhere you decided that the car seat didn't support you properly and the Bimmer was more comfortable. It was right around the time BMW discounted the 5 to unheard of levels with large lease subsidiaries.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Like I said, $30 a month wasn't that much of a big deal.
    Go back and find the posts about the GS 430's gimmicky, adaptive steering and the grabby brakes. It's there somewhere.
    The GS 300 actually was more fun to drive than the GS 430, because the brakes and steering were normal in the former.
    Problem was I had my heart set on a V8.
    I really wanted to like the 430.
    The 545, while not exactly perfect, is a better car than the 430, IMO. The fact that it was $30 less than the Lexus made the decision a no-brainer for me.
    The upgraded comfort seats in my 545 are quite a bit better than those in the GS.

    My other choice would have been the Infiniti M45.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    So THAT'S your spin on the RX's success? Uh.....it's not really an SUV.....

    You sound like a Mercedes (or BMW/Audi/VW) rep at an Auto Show, being asked about how you will retake the market from Lexus.

    I could swear I heard you fumpher!

    Mercedes is COPYING LEXUS! Say it with me. It doesn't hurt (much).

    So is GM, and the Koreans.

    VW/BMW/Audi dream of an RX of their very own.

    I think the Camry is approaching 5-series style! Nice! :shades: More pics please!

    DrFill
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    He was supposed to be on vacation for only 3 weeks ! Maybe he's out there lurking and prepping his return... Tag, wherever you are, hope you get back here soon. Your team needs you cos they seem to be floudering without you. The great linebacker anchoring the middle of the D-line is AWOL, and the D is missing....

    Hope you've had a wonderful vacation with friends and family, and that you'll be here soon.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The GS 300 actually was more fun to drive than the GS 430, because the brakes and steering were normal in the former.

    I felt the same way when I drove the two of them. I let the salesguy explain all of the 430's ultra fancy techno-brake\steer stuff without saying anything. When he was done, I said "this feels like the Playstation version of the GS. There's no feel in either the wheel or the brake pedal." There's no answer for that in the "greatness of VDIM" brochure.

    My LS is better to drive than the GS430. I hated it. The GS300 wasn't bad, I think I would probably take it over the RL, but there's no way I'd take it over an M.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    So in other words you have no case! Nothing there but a grand gloss over of your disproven original post!

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Doc, MB ain't copying squat from Lexus. None of the European makers SUVs are tall fwd wagons, which is the RX's formula.

    GM and the shameless Koreans yes. Lincoln too with the MKX. Buick's Enclave is a dead ringer for a RX in concept and layout, but nothing from MB, Land Rover, VW, Porsche, BMW or Audi is and you know it.

    M
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    To tell you the truth, the Lexus salesman was putting me to sleep going through all the technology with the GS. He demonstrated the touch screen and I asked him how you go from FM radio to AM and guess what-this guy who it must have taken weeks just to learn all that stuff, couldn't do it!

    I could see the GS 300 as my third choice right behind the Infiniti M.
    The GS 430 wouldn't even be my 4th choice-so much promise, spoiled by all that unnatural gimmicktry.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    You guys don't need any help, Oac.
    Club Europe needs a loyal opposition.
    Besides Tagman is a moderate voice around here.
    He and Lexusguy.

    Yes. It's a beautiful symmetry we have here on HELM-the passionate loyalists separated by 2 articulate moderates who keep us from going off the deep end.

    The best forum on Edmunds and you do your share to make it so. ;)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Googled the following "Is it a crime in any state in the USA to change one's mind?"

    Brought the constitution up on the screen too.

    Couldn't find anything.

    People change. I used to be a Democrat. Now I'm not. No crime.

    One day I woke up thinking Porsche Cayman. Now, it's not even being considered.

    Last year's quotes don't mean anything to me and shouldn't to you.
  • guestguest Member Posts: 770
    I'm surprised there is this much debate.

    The 550i is the best car in that class for 5 reasons:

    1. Manual tranny available
    2. Most Power
    3. Most street cred
    4. Best resale value
    5. Best seats (Comfort)

    DrFill
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I can't believe I was criticized for choosing the 545, when I was offered a 545 for $720 a month and a GS 430 for $750 a month-- given the 545's indisputibly better performance, better seats (love the comfort seats), higher prestige and maintenance-free warranty.

    To me this was as close to a no-brainer as it gets!!
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Hello All,
    Wow, looks like nothing has changed here! I'm been happily motoring around with my S430. It hasn't broken down yet! :P I've only driven it 2K though, so we'll have to see. I also drive my 1992 LS400 for a change on Fridays.

    It's really hard to say which car is "Better" That is such a subjective word. Even comparing the S430 to my LS430 is a tough thing to do.

    Both cars have an amazing feature list. I can't even tell the difference between the Stereos. The Lexus is quieter, but the MB is more nimble. The Lexus has a better Nav design, but the MB lets you use it while driving.

    The Lexus has more electronic features like Backup Camera, Bluetooth (Very surprising MB is so behind here), and Parking Radar standard. The MB has interesting features like Nanotech paint (I wish Lexus had this!) the ability to check the oil from the car, and that very useful Multifunction display in the Speedometer cluster.

    I find myself deliberately taking a longer route home when I'm driving the S Class. The LS400 is a great car to relax in. It's almost like a different car for a different mood.

    Looking at Objectives: Depreciation, Quality, Price, etc etc, the Lexus has the edge. The only exception would be safety technology and the numerous drivetrain choices. The last thing in the world I expect is to be stranded by a Lexus. Everything in the cabin is perfectly laid out. It's such a well designed car.

    Looking at Subjectives: Style, Feel on the Road, Interiors, etc Mercedes IMHO has the edge. This car is like a tank on the highway. It does not move, even at 90 MPH. The driving dynamics are amazing.

    One more thing: Mercedes has gone all out to make me feel welcome. They've sent me numerous surveys and the dealership has made every effort to make me happy. I've gotten three letters from the dealership itself making sure I'm happy. Mercedes even sent me a small thank you gift (wonderfully wrapped).

    Maybe I'm being unfair towards Lexus, but I never saw that effort from them. The dealer (Which is part of a big chain which happens to own the MB dealer I bought mine from) is certainly nice, but hasn't gone the extra mile like the Merecedes Dealer has.

    Despite buying 4 LS400/430's I never got a thank you gift from Lexus. The GM of the Lexus dealer never came out to congratulate me. And they never offered to bring a car from Maryland at No charge to satisfy me!

    Okay these are minor things and perhaps I am nitpicking. It certainly made my family feel special when the GM and Sales Manager came out to greet us after buying the S430. It was a really special day.

    The Dealer Experience with Mercedes has been great. Of course it could be a different story when the car actually breaks. But then again, my experience with Lexus Service hasn't been great either. (Or ANY Service DEpt for that matter)

    Despite all of this, I'm definitely consider the LS460 in a few years. It is a fantastic car. The rear end is a work of art. I wish the Front end had more flair. I'm a little concerned about Quality with all the new Tech they're coming out with. Toyota has had some problems these days, so I'll wait to see if there are any issues with this one.

    -Sam
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    From The Wall Street Journal July 27, 2006:

    While past ads focused on the vehicles and how fast they could go, Cadillac's new spots will feature the kinds of people the brand is trying to attract. Typical is a print ad showing a young blonde woman hanging out with a friend in a Cadillac; another print ad shows a young man with his friend in a Cadillac DTS

    But while the brand's popularity with rappers and athletes boosted its cool factor, Cadillac executives worried it could also be a turnoff to mainstream consumers such as housewives. Some dealers worry that the new campaign is too mainstream.


    How many young people desire a Cadillac DTS? In fact I cant think of anyone (under the age of 70) who wants a DTS and if there is one I dont think they will confess that desire in public.

    Should LPS/HELM autos be catered to housewives? Is this approach going to make Cadillacs more exciting?

    Should Cadillac ads become more mainstream? Mainstream ads works wonders for Corolla , but will it work for Cadillac?

    IMO I dont think these future Cadillac ads are going to helps GM one bit. They are better off with Led Zepellin.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    All this about a buyer caring about why a car is priced the way it is falls under the same catergory as a buyer caring about what a CEO says or company's profit statements. Toyota/Lexus fantics are the only ones in the whole world who believe that. Honda, Porsche, BMW and others that make money also and they don't have nearly the same one-track group of supporters when it comes to all this irrelvancy about corporate matters.
    I wonder as well.. Have u been talking to Dewey lately ?


    I have not a clue what you are suggesting? Nor do I care to find out. :P
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    This has to be the most balanced and objective post ever written in this forum.
    Glad to hear that you are enjoying your S430.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "This has to be the most balanced and objective post....."

    Obviously, came to the wrong place! :)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "Mercedes has gone all out to make me feel welcome."

    Sure. It's called playing catch-up.
    Bet they wouldn't have treated you so well 10 years ago.
    Amazing what falling sales will do.
    When they need you, they play nice.
    Human nature strikes again!
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Lease/finance subsidy, instead of the MSRP's that hardly anybody pays, indeed goes a long way towards the decision for most people who actually get these cars, or any other cars for that matter. Alfred Sloan discovered that some 80 years ago.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Ah yes!

    The good old Alfred P Sloan School of Economics at MIT.

    Paul Samuelson-where are you when I need you? :sick:
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    He was supposed to be on vacation for only 3 weeks ! Maybe he's out there lurking and prepping his return... Tag, wherever you are, hope you get back here soon. Your team needs you cos they seem to be floudering without you. The great linebacker anchoring the middle of the D-line is AWOL, and the D is missing....

    Hope you've had a wonderful vacation with friends and family, and that you'll be here soon.


    Got back late last night . . . and you know the saying . . . "when you play, you pay!" Well, I have a nasty stack of stuff to catch up on, and I won't be much help to this forum for a while. I have just read most, but not all, of the posts since my departure, and I have a few comments for some of you, but nothing so urgent that it can't wait.

    Unfortunately, I will be "out-of-service" once again the second half of August, so I won't really be able to dig in until after Labor Day.

    I missed ALL of you, however, and look forward to chatting with you again as soon as I can catch up on things.

    TagMan
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Be careful what you wish for. Hyundai is probably already out selling Mercedes in the USA. Anybody got any figures?

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Wouldn't be at all surprised.
    What made Toyota so successful was giving the great middle class very good value in quality automobiles.
    And now Hyundai is beating them at their own game.
    They just have to work a bit on their interiors.

    Look for the Sonata to be the best-selling car in America by the end of 2007.
    So it shall be written. So it shall be done.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I have just read most, but not all, of the posts since my departure

    You are definitely a good speed reader. It would take me many days just to catch up on just a few weeks of posts here.

    Talk to you after Labor Day.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Glad to see that you're still enjoying your '06 S430. The car is a magnificent piece of machinery, even if it isn't a S500.

    About the standard stuff on the MB v. Lexus, the S430 was always meant to be the volume S-Class, even more so before the S350 arrived. Most of the things that Lexus instituted over the life-cycle of the LS as standard equip was not so standard in '01, when the car was new. This was in effect to keep the car at it's traditional low-price. Take for instance a sunroof, which did not become standard until '04. And most of the things that you mentioned about the MB became standard with '03 refresh. And MB counter-fired with No-Cost AWD, something only Audi can touch in the class. This proved to be a huge success and bolstered AWD-equipped car sales by 63%.

    But what's most important is that you're still happy with your purchase.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Good to see you - oac posted something that I've been wondering about for a week or so.

    Good luck with your catch-up.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Interestingly enough, with all of the baby-boomer-era LZ commercials and a new styling direction, the median age of Cadillac buyers has fallen to 54, or 3(57) and 5yrs(59) behind Lexus and Jag, respectively.

    And the company is enjoying record-breaking sales. One-up for Caddy. And with the product that is in the pipeline scheduled for production(RWD DTS, '08 CTS, totally refreshed XLR on the Vette chassis but with a Caddy rear-suspension, the Escalade V12, and a larger volume/smaller hard-top convertible to compete with likes of Z4, SLK, Audi A4 Cab-thankfully based on the Zeta platform and not the G6 FWD architecture), the company has a lot to be proud of.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    With the great re-emergence of Caddy comes great compromise. GM announced today that 2nd QTR. earnings fell 3.2bil. They say it's because of it's lingering healthcare obligations and early retirement plans... The same excuse of 2yrs won't cut it anymore.

    And with all this talk of the Lexus canning the S-Classes sales: MBZ posted a 34% rise in S-Class sales and 51% overall line-wide. Top execs say this is one of the best quarters on record for the company- 120+ years worth. And the S-Class isn't losing any steam. So much for the lord of lords LS....

    Conversely, Chrysler sales have slumped sharply. The 300 can't carry the weight all it's own. The Ram is holding up it's side of the table with 289,000 units sold this quarter-a pickup truck record. But with the '07/'08 revisions to the LX-platform, a new from scratch '08 Dodge Caravan/Chrysler TC with a reported minivan-first 3.6L direct-injected 300hp AWD full-hybrid(co-developed with VW/Audi- no doubt)(the Chrysler 3.5L 250hp engine to serve as the base engine), diesel SUV's(possibly a 300 CDI) the company should pick-up steam. One solution: Please lose the dialect-bound Zietche for more formidible ads.

    Nissan, with a 29% rise in sales and better production, the company is still on a steady march north. With the company going full-CVT line-wide on it's ubiqitous 3.5L V-6, better quality, and better customer service, why would the company get conflicted with GM???

    Ford, well...............
  • guestguest Member Posts: 770
    Uh....I don't know where you get Mercedes up 51%. This certainly isn't US sales.

    I know for a FACT that Dodge Ram has the highest Days Supply in it's class, even though I like the Ram.

    And the same with Nissan, as sales have stagnated here in the US for '06.

    Comparing the New S-Class to the lame-duck LS makes a lot of sense at this point........

    That party is almost over! :P

    DrFill
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    We may need to get the old glasses examined.

    I didn't mention anything about the Ram's supply. Supply and o/h are to different things. Sales are jsut that. And no, your facts off the mark. The F-150 has the highest days of availabilty in it's class. Would've been the Chevy had production not deceased earlier this year. The Ford has lost -41%(down some 189,000 units ytd)- the Explorer 58%, despite a refresh. Those are Ford's two pushers, and if they can't get these right, how do they run PAG? That's why Jag is in the shape it's in now, with the X-Type a laughable cover up of the Mondeo. The XK8 is appealing tho.... even with the Taurus grille.........

    Nissan. The maker as WHOLE, on the 6 continents that they sell in...

    Same for MBZ. It's not the DCX's fault that they choose to market/sell the S on every continent(except Antartica-penguins can't drive), unlike Toyota with the LS.

    Mercedes is up 51% due on the part of some particularly good product such as the red-hot GL(despite fuel prices, it outsells the most reliable LC/LX combined with change to spare- I know, I know, they're a decade old, get over it) and the ML. The SLK sales have risen moderately, so has CLK. All is not peachy. The C-Class has absolutely tanked, not surprising. SL's have dipped slightly, altho it still reigns supreme in it's European and domestic comp, oh there is one Japanese entry.....

    BTW: Wasn't it you and a many other Lexican preaching about how the new S couldn't stack up to a 5 year old Lexus? Ah now who's being arrogant? It's been quoted many times on this very thread that the LS is still superior the new S(which couldn't be futhest from the truth). So that's why I choose to include the untouchable LS as if it's that perfect, then no car new or old should scare it off.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Two Tings:

    #1: If you are talking about sales globally, say so! K?

    #2: No, I didn't say the current LS is superior to the new S, that was someone else.

    I DID say the LS will outsell the S in 2007.

    And I DID say the Next LS is better looking than "My HumpS550". ;)

    Oh, and I said the LS460 will be the dynamic match of the S550, and could successfully sell for 7-series money. I'm am against pricing the car at $60k.

    I think the LS460L could be sold for $70-75k, to start, with no real impact on sales numbers. It would still be a awesome value vs. the S550, and the 7-series wouldn't affect LS sales, as they go after different clientele, IMHO.

    The LS460 will sell 35-40k units in 2007.

    DrFill
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Conversely, Chrysler sales have slumped sharply. The 300 can't carry the weight all it's own. The Ram is holding up it's side of the table with 289,000 units sold this quarter-a pickup truck record. But with the '07/'08 revisions to the LX-platform, a new from scratch '08 Dodge Caravan/Chrysler TC with a reported minivan-first 3.6L direct-injected 300hp AWD full-hybrid(co-developed with VW/Audi- no doubt)(the Chrysler 3.5L 250hp engine to serve as the base engine), diesel SUV's(possibly a 300 CDI) the company should pick-up steam. One solution: Please lose the dialect-bound Zietche for more formidible ads.

    This weeks Autoextremist.com column is all about the trouble with Chrysler. "Caught in a classic Twilight Zone of "Our new stuff coming is kick-[non-permissible content removed], and it won't be long now!" and the reality of a mounting inventory that's just not selling - even with massive incentives, the Chrysler Group is barely treading water. The words "not good" come to mind."

    Another very interesting point was this: "And on the other hand, the homogenization and gradual decline of the Mercedes image and raison d'etre continues, with word that an upcoming DCX "Phoenix" V-6 corporate engine program will see identical engines shared in Chrysler and Mercedes-Benz products.

    Just how much will Zetsche allow the once-hallowed Mercedes-Benz brand to be "blended" into the vast vagueness and marked inconsistency that defines the Chrysler Group product lineup - before it all comes unraveled?"
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    LG: Did Dr Z not come from "turning around" Chrysler that earned him the nod for the DCX job over Cordes ? That is, Chrysler was saving MB's bacon not that long ago to give the DCX CEO job to the guy at the Chrysler helm - the now famous Dr Z !!! Hmmmm... How times change....

    DCX's archilles heel will be Chrysler, and I don't see anything they offer, save for the Ram and some of the SRT8 stuff, that has any modicum of lusting for. Hey, maybe MB can save Chrysler afterall.... Wasn't that one of the reasons for the "merger" ??? I wonder what Schrempf and Eckard Cordes are thinking these days ???
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Sure. It's called playing catch-up.
    Bet they wouldn't have treated you so well 10 years ago.
    Amazing what falling sales will do.


    Sort of a low-blow and an incorrect one at that. If that comment about dealer treatment which suggest they were never any good at that sort of thing before Lexus applies to Mercedes (which it does not) then it also applies to BMW and all other luxury car makes, post Lexus.

    Falling sales at Mercedes-Benz? The last 10 years say otherwise and this year really says NOT! to that assumption.

    M
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Some nice posts while I was absent, and I'm feeling very slow getting up to speed here. I've only got a couple of things at this point.

    So excuse me if this was already mentioned here, but I've reviewed many, but not all, of the posts since I left. I noticed on my return plane trip that on page 20 of the September Road & Track magazine that there is more information about the upcoming Lexus super sedan. We all talked about this somewhat before I left for the summer. I think that it might have been lj that first mentioned it, but I'm not sure.

    Anyway, it seems that if the vehicle is produced it will be likely slated for the 2009 model year and will be a V-12 hybrid, possibly called the L 650h (not LS). The word is that the V-12 will be a 5.0 liter, with power of about 400 hp, mated with two electric motors, and the next-generation CVT, for a total of about 500 hp. The sedan will be larger than the LS, but possibly on the same flatform, and the price is expected to be about . . . drumroll please . . . $150,000.

    This might explain the latest information on the LS600hL, which seems to have somewhat more conservative hp ratings than first projected, and possibly a lower price point than expected by many.

    For example, according to the September Motor Trend, the projected base price range for the upcoming LS600hL is $75,000 to $85,000. While this is still early here to know with assurance, it appears to be possibly lower than many of our earlier predictions. Also the upcoming '07 LS is shown to have a projected base price range of $58,500 to $62,500.

    This tier structure is developing in advance in order to accommodate the potential L model super sedan, IMO, and might explain a slightly lower LS600hL base price. All to be seen, of course.

    BTW, I also liked the pics of the new CL class that were posted here earlier in the month. Admittedly and gladly, it looks much better than I had thought it would.

    I noticed that there were some discussions about the purchasing power of LS buyers, and what I found to be interesting was that if they are truly an affluent group, why then do the Lexus buyers seem to have an obsession with resale? Would they actually NOT buy a car they otherwise like because of the mathematics of resale?

    After all, I realize that resale is important, but would someone actually choose to NOT buy the car they want, and take second or third choice because of resale? It seems a shame to me, and perhaps an exercise in self-deprivation.

    Anyway, hope the Lexus info is helpful and not overly redundant.

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    That ultra-Lexus in this month's MT looks like some type of cross between a Maybach and a seal, god I hope it looks better than that if it goes to production.

    I can see something like that coming to market from Lexus, if and only if the LS600hL is a hit.

    M
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    LG - Dieter's a business guy out to make money. He has to undo the merger or blend the businesses. The first is impossible right now as neither business is performing well and the direction in the auto industry is consolidation not divestiture. Thus the blending model is the right business model. That's why he's put the German imprint on the ads as he wants noone to be mistaken about his strategy. MB was sinking when he inherited it and had turned red and he's a cost cutter synergy type of guy. Who do you please - the purists like Merc1 or the investors? The answer is obvious and what I'd do if I were him is re-invent the Maybach at a much lower level and let it be the MB purist brand. Maybach is bleeding and going nowhere in its current state.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Mercedes has fallen quite a bit in market share but not in actual sales number. The market has shot way up in the last 10 years but MB has'nt gotten much of the growth. They've been flat to down in sales the last few years with either an upturn on the way or a temporary spike this year. Time will tell.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    That ultra-Lexus in this month's MT looks like some type of cross between a Maybach and a seal, god I hope it looks better than that if it goes to production.

    I can see something like that coming to market from Lexus, if and only if the LS600hL is a hit.


    Yes, I reserved any comment on its appearance in my first post about it, but since you bring it up, it is definately not the good-looker its price range would demand. I imagine there are those that would buy a Lexus regardless of its appearance . . . you know, for all those "other" reasons, but hopefully the production vehicle would look better. I think some of the problem is that horrible two-tone red & silver paint job.

    Regarding the LS600hL, I have little doubt that it will be a hit.

    BTW, I noticed a lot of previous chatter about hybrids and gas prices and the "payback" equation . . . you know, the usual stuff, but I was surprised to see that the reference for gas prices is so low. IMO, people should start projecting a much higher price per gallon for gas than they are. $2.50/gallon is NOT realistic, IMO. I think at least $3.50 to $4.00 or even much higher is very reaistic very soon. In fact, I would not be surprised to see those prices by next summer or even the end of this summer, and I easily see gas between $4.00 and $5.00 within three to five years thereafter.

    Also, the talk about the Camry styling and the LS styling was nothing new. Certainly all the Toyota and Lexus vehicles are not as identical as some were indicating, but they do, however, all seem to share a very close design theme. Personally, I think that is OK and somewhat typical to have design similarities within a marque itself, but I do wish there were less similarities that cross the lines between Toyota and Lexus. After all, they really should be more clearly different marques, IMO.

    It begs the question . . . is a Toyota a cheaper Lexus, or is a Lexus an upscale Toyota?

    TagMan
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Who do you please - the purists like Merc1 or the investors? The answer is obvious and what I'd do if I were him is re-invent the Maybach at a much lower level and let it be the MB purist brand.

    So are you saying you can't have it both ways? It's a sad day when pleasing investors is synonymous with stripping the soul from products. At one point Merck pleased investors with Vioxx.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The answer is obvious and what I'd do if I were him is re-invent the Maybach at a much lower level and let it be the MB purist brand.

    I totally agree here, and I think Designman's idea of having it both ways is actually very possible and a great idea. If Mercedes can build and sell the new S at it's price, then certainly they can build and sell the next tier without a price that is in the stratosphere, and still provide the purist with a LOT of car for less money and satisfy the investor as well.

    TagMan
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    DCX is definitely on the right path.

    SOURCE: Reuters

    DCX saw its operating profit in the second quarter rise 11 percent to $2.37 billion USD. The profits were made on the backs of the Mercedes Car Group, which saw its operating profit skyrocket from just $15.3 million a year ago to $1.03 billion in 2Q 2006

    And what about the USA?

    SOURCE: link title

    Mercedes-Benz USA (MBUSA) today reported its highest June on record with sales of 20,802 new vehicles, an increase of 14 percent over last June. This brings MBUSA's year-to-date total to 114,935 new vehicles sold for the best half- year sales in the company's history.

    Ofcourse MB sales did not grow as fast in the last few years as other luxury marqes. But the whole point is their turnaround is gaining momentum as I had successfully predicted about a year ago . And I would like to humbly point out that every prediction I have made so far in this forum has been 100 percent correct. :shades:

    Chrysler too is on the right track. Let us not forget Chrysler's sexy product pipeline: a new Chrysler Imperial (with those alluring suicide doors), a Sebring that actually sounds like it will be able to sell at dealers' lots and the upcoming Challenger. More fuel efficient models combined with a a greater selection of diesel offerings will help Chyrsler from its dependence on gas guzzling vehicles.

    Every turnaround has bumps. But at least DCX is moving in the right direction.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Who do you please - the purists like Merc1 or the investors?

    Merc1 is not a purist, he's just an idealist ! I don't care how anyone is tuned into the "driving" aspect of a car. No one lives on left-hand turn race tracks, neither do people live on autobahns.... or motor speedways. The real purists don't drive mainstream cars like many of us here do... They drive STi, WRX, M/RS/S, Porsches, Ferraris, Lambos, etc...all with a stick... Those AT AMGs don't count either (except for my fav MB, the E55). Now we are talking purists cos these cars are simply meant to be driven, no pretensions of luxury or fluff about these cars...They have only one purpose in their genre.. However, to use the word "purist" on a HELM board just don't work together... HELM refers to LUXURY MARQUES not sport-tuned sedans which you'd find in the LPS forum... To hear the so-called *purists* on HELM, you'd think that they live on speedways/race tracks... See, reality is that your car drives you from point A to point B, with some comfort, some speed, some handling, some pleasure, thrown in. No single car on this planet gives you EVERYTHING you'd need/want in a car.... Its all about business which provides such driving xteristics. Dr Z is a business man and he understands that lil' reality which I am afraid some Germancarfans struggle with... Its not that hard to grasp, is it ?
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The real purists don't drive mainstream cars like many of us here do... They drive STi, WRX, M/RS/S, Porsches, Ferraris, Lambos, etc...all with a stick... Those AT AMGs don't count either (except for my fav MB, the E55). Now we are talking purists cos these cars are simply meant to be driven, no pretensions of luxury or fluff about these cars...They have only one purpose in their genre.. However, to use the word "purist" on a HELM board just don't work together...

    hey oac, good to see you've been very busy while I've been away. I'm a little confused about this post, however. Are you saying that there is no such thing as pure luxury? Only pure performance? Why?

    TagMan
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    noticed that there were some discussions about the purchasing power of LS buyers, and what I found to be interesting was that if they are truly an affluent group, why then do the Lexus buyers seem to have an obsession with resale? Would they actually NOT buy a car they otherwise like because of the mathematics of resale?

    BINGO!

    Your observations are dead on. The reason is the LS up to now is not priced like German HELMs but more like German LPS like the 5/E/A6 models. Therefore the LS attracts a different segment of the market . A market that consists of buyers that are more conscious about resale values than in the market for HELMs. Although the future LWB and Hybrid LS models will sell at real HELM prices.

    I include myself in the above category. I did buy my BMW 530xi Touring because it is IMO the most driveable family wagon out there. But another consideration was BMW resale values (I was quite impressed with the the price I sold my 99 BMW323i).

    The only HELM auto I would ever consider buying is a Porshce 911 Carrera S. Unfortunately the Carrera S MSRP in Canada is at a 40 percent premium (adjusted for foreign exchange) over over the MSRP in USA.

    RIP OFF! Pride refuses me to be lured into such a transaction. Nor do I want to go through the hassle of buying a Porsche in USA and confronting duties and warranty issues here in Canada.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Are you saying that there is no such thing as pure luxury? Only pure performance? Why?

    Of course there are LOTS of cars designed solely for pure luxury... Maybach comes to mind. Ergo, others designed purely for performance, and I listed a few already... And there are the abridged ones... call them a "hybrid" and thats what you get mostly on the LPS forum, and to a lower extent here on HELM... That's one of the problems we have on this forum. The cars are designed for LUXURY yet we get all these talk about performance... If you want performance, why are you buying an S-class ? How many S-class buyers/leasee drives the car bcos of its "performance" ? We can talk about attributes of a HELM, but not brow-beat one car for not being a performance leader... These are luxury full-size (family) sedans first !

    Welcome back ! You are already lifting the quality of the debate within your first 2 posts. I guess "moderation" is a good thing (Howard), eh ?
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Well do you consider $250K and up affluent? And based on these posts people don't care what happens to their money?? How'd they get it in the first place? People who buy homes care about future money but people who buy cars don't? Now maybe what you are guys are saying is that more German cars are bought by inherited money. Then I can see some validity to your post. If you don't earn it you don't respect and if you do earn it then you do respect it.

    Now here's what else confuses me - the biggest piece of pride I heard from MB owners (until the past 5 years or so) was how fabulous the resale value of MB's were, in some cases holding 75+% of value after 4 years and 50k miles. Suddenly those same people don't give a hoot? Tag - you've beeen on vacation so I'll give you a break but rethink your post and think about all the MB buyers of the past. On this point, if you really believe it, we are worlds apart, or maybe 90% of the cas are leased so who cares about resale if you are leasing and the lease price is often not much more than an LS or comparable Lexus.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Welcome back ! You are already lifting the quality of the debate within your first 2 posts. I guess "moderation" is a good thing (Howard), eh ?

    Thank you. Yes, I saw Howard's reference to my "moderate" posting style. No comment here.

    Let's take it a step further then . . . are you saying that performance and luxury do not co-exist well enough in the HELM category? At least for a purist, as you define it?

    TagMan
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    ..... are you saying that performance and luxury do not co-exist well enough in the HELM category? At least for a purist, as you define it?

    Performance AND luxury surely can and do co-exist, that's what I mean by "hybrid" for HELM cars. When these co-exist, there are compromises made by the manufacturer. You can get an upgraded handling over, say a Buick, in an S-class or LS, but not the type of performance you'd get in an M. So we just need to put our debate in perspective and remember that the bias in HELM is to LUXURY not performance. The latter is simply an icing on the cake....

    Hey, were you not supposed to be out of action until after Labor Day ? Get back to work, and catch up on those gadzillion e-mails awaiting your attention... :)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    People who buy homes care about future money but people who buy cars don't? Now maybe what you are guys are saying is that more German cars are bought by inherited money. Then I can see some validity to your post. If you don't earn it you don't respect and if you do earn it then you do respect it.

    My business is catered solely to high net worth clients. Most earn their own money (although there are some heirs among them). It is easy to make the generalization you made above but I can assure you there are quite a few high earning non-heirs who drive expensive German cars.
    At the same time many of my clients dont even own a HELM. In other words what I am trying to say is that the fine art of pigeon-holing HELM buyers is an endeavor that involves more subjectivity than objectivity. Especially when there are no statistics that show what cars the "old rich" versus the "nouveau rich" own.

    A house is quite different from a car. Among my clients I dont know anybody who is motivated by resale values before buying a car(luxury or non-luxury). Except certain individuals in this forum (including myself) :)
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