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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • magnetophonemagnetophone Member Posts: 605
    An E-class is not that much smaller than an LS. Really, if I had $60K, I wouldn't be "buying up" to the largest size possible. I'd buy the E-class, because to me, the rear seat space beyond a certain point is just overkill. This would especially hold true if I lived in a large city. The LS is entirely too ungainly, as is the S and 7.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Depends on your family needs and what you've gotten used to. The E is only 189 inches long and I found it too confining in the front and back for myself and my family. It's not all that wide. My wife thought it was far too small in the back particularly with a car seat. The LS430 should be 2-3 inches lomger and the S 2-3 inches shorter imo. The S-class is deceiving as it hides its bulk real well. You tend also to forget how long it is until you drive it.
  • magnetophonemagnetophone Member Posts: 605
    Well, I don't have kids and a lot of E-class owners don't either...
  • baron87baron87 Member Posts: 93
    If we did not live in the suburbs of Chicago, there would be no way we could ever have a vehicle as large as our DTS. I think for city driving that a vehicle C-Class or 3-Series size is perfect, and I think something the size of a CTS or 5-Series is approaching the upper end of managability.

    One of my dad's business partners who lives in the Streeterville area of Chicago, just has a Porsche Boxster as his only car. For he and his wife, living in the city, it's a perfect car. Small, fast, fun. And if you have guests, or need more space, you just take public transportation. That's an interesting thing about Chicago, everyone from blue-collar workers to CEOs will be seen taking the CTA.
  • nealm1nealm1 Member Posts: 154
    I can't explain why Edmunds said that "pricing" for the E320 starts at 53k when the MB website says otherwise. Maybe they were assuming that most buyers in this class would want to order "options" like a sunroof. If you count doors and seats as options, boy you can really drive down the base price
  • wishnhigh1wishnhigh1 Member Posts: 363
    "You think so huh? Do you even know what "comparision" he was talking about. If you mean someting dealing with the S55 then you're as lost as he is because I haven't mentioned the S55 in this round. Period. If the SC and SL aren't competitors then the S430/S500 and LS430 aren't either right? Don't they have a 20K base price difference too?"

    Okay, you asked for an explanation, and I can give it to you, just be patient.

    When someone decides to buy a new car, they usually set a goal price...usually the top price they will pay, out the door. This is even before they start looking at and comparing different models. They might have a few models in mind, but the real comparison starts after the goal price is set.

    I think we could all agree that price is the most common limiting factor(do not confuse with determining factor) in a new car purchase, right?

    So in the sense of the market, the LS430 is more of a competitor with the E430. There is the basic answer to your question. Same goes with the SC versus the SL...in terms of the market, the SC430 is more of a competitor with the CLK.
    ------------------------------
    However, the issue you push is comparison. There is a difference between cars that are comparable and cars that are competitors.

    The LS is comparable to the S class. The GS is comparable to the E class.

    For me personally, the SC and the SL dont even compare. Sure, the arangement is pretty similar, but the purpose is completely different. The SL was designed with performance and luxury. The SC has never intended any emphasis on performance, other than having a fairly powerful engine.

    The same goes with the ES and the C class. They are competitors, however they do not compare in my mind. FWD never has competed with RWD in my mind though. But that doesnt stop them from competing.
    ----------------------
    Competing encompasses price as a major priority, because that is how cars compete in peoples minds. Comparing does not encompass price. You could compare a Pontiac Bonneville with a BMW 745, if your only consideration was size...however that does not mean they are competitors.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "Merc1 - the E-class/LS discussion got started on price comparatives of 6cyl E vs. LS430.
    No technical issues were involved. Nealm1 just tried to state how crazy that was, and
    except for you, found plenty of agreement. Even you would be hard pressed to say that a
    6cyl E could compete with a V-8 of just about any pedigree. Now let's end this and I
    promise I will never say another negative thing about MB on this board because you
    simply can't handle it. "

    First of all I'm trying to figure out where you and Nealm1 got 60K from for an E320, most of them would never be optioned out that high. I don't know why you and him can't understand that. For 60K I myself wouldn't want an E320 either, I'd go with the E500. Who other than Nealm1 was silly enough to actually believe the BS you and he kept harping about is the question. Where oh where was this "plenty of agreement" that you found....other than from another Lexus fan?

    You and I have had this conversation before and we'll never agree on it, but then you turn around and say things like I can't "take it" because I disagree, you're starting to sound like all the GM fans out there who, once you don't agree with them, start saying "you're not being objective". Objective meaning you're not agreeing with them. You and him never cea

    I can understand why you didn't get anything from driving an SL, all you're looking for is the stereo performance and soft ride, you may as well drive a Buick if thats all you're going to look for. I mean really, you dismiss technology as being nothing and then go on to say how it isn't needed, all from a 15 min test drive....that is ridiculous. Stick to Lexus, they've got your best wishes at heart.

    nealm1,

    I already explained to you why Edmunds website says that, it was a "FIRST DRIVE". Haven't you ever read a car mag where they list the price as "estimated", i.e. meaning they don't have the actual price yet? I can't believe that was so hard for you to grasp.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I've already explained why I think they are competitors (SL/SC) so I'm not going to go over it again. You may not see them as compeitors, but the market does. Read some of the posts from people right here on Edmunds, they do get compared. "Most people" aren't shopping for a SC430 or SL500, these aren't "most people".

    M
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    You just never seem to get my point. I love performance and Lexus delivers plenty of it. It just doesn't over-deliver it and to compare it to a Buick is absurd because the latter has no performance at all. Plus it delivers it without compromising an incredibby wonderful ride. I'll take excess luxury with the right amount of performance over excess performance and less luxury all the time.

    Wishinhigh - you said it about as well as it can be said. That is why when I was last shopping i initially started out comparing an E to an LS430, That was a mismatch supreme. So i went to the S-430 which was in the same league but priced 9k or so higher. Now we had a match going but the S-430 was an underpowered car next to the LS430 so I quickly moved onto the S-500. A great match but the latter was $18k more and could be optioned out to be $25-35k more. I thought the LS430 a better car than an S-500 for my driving desires and its ride quality and it was the more luxurious car. The sport version - if I wanted more performance - handles better than any base S-430/500 and it costs $100 more than a base LS430 - for the tires. But there was a wait for the car at the time and I couldn't wait.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    If you say so, but a Buick Park Avenue Ultra with it's supercharched V6 does provide some performance. Seriously though its the overall character and feel of Lexuses are often compared to Buicks. The SC430, ES300 and LS430 in particular. If you think about it the philosphy is the same, Lexus just elevates it compared to a Buick.

    "I'll take excess luxury with the right amount of performance over excess performance and less luxury all the time."

    Thats why I said you'll be better off with Lexus.

    M
  • nealm1nealm1 Member Posts: 154
    The "First Drive" was dated 8/27/02. Wasn't the "actual" pricing info available last week? What do you think a typically optioned E320 will contain?
  • jstylejstyle Member Posts: 129
    I was just looking through Motor Trend's new issue on 2003-4 models and saw everything I expected except something that was curious. I was under the impression that the 2004 Bentley GT coupe was a competitor for the CL600, Z8 etc. MT listed its estimated price at $350K or what Bentley has traditionally charged for coupes. It is the sedan MSB project that is an S600 competitor at about 160K. Anyone know for sure? Was this an error or is the new coupe and coming convertible from Bentley really coming in above $300K?
  • adu1adu1 Member Posts: 47
    My impression also was that the GT Coupe would come in *below* the current Bentley line-up in pricing. I wonder what MT's source is for that price?
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    We've had our discussions often and always end them well no matter how much we differ. That has remained the same once again as I'll take our last two posts as a good way to end a spirited discussion.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,146
    Hi there,
    Hope someone out there responds to my journalist friend on the following mission:

    Anyone out there shopping for a BMW? I'm a journalist with a national
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  • baron87baron87 Member Posts: 93
    August sales data is in, and once again GM's Luxury Engineering and Manufacutring Division is proving that it is on a huge roll...

    Cadillac Divisonal Sales:
    --Up 53.6% over Ausgust 2001 to 21,942
    --Up 19% for the year to 128,700

    Cadillac Car Sales:
    --Up 41% over August 2001 to 16,493
    --Up 6.1% to 96,565 for the year

    Cadillac SUV Sales:
    --Up an astounding 110% over August 2001 to 5,449
    --Up an astounding 89% for the year to 32,135

    Indeed, nothing short of amazing...
  • wishnhigh1wishnhigh1 Member Posts: 363
    I've already explained why I think they are competitors (SL/SC) so I'm not going to go over it again. You may not see them as compeitors, but the market does. Read some of the posts from people right here on Edmunds, they do get compared. "Most people" aren't shopping for a SC430 or SL500, these aren't "most people".

    Yeah, I have seen people compare the pontiac bonneville to the 740i. Does that mean they are competitors too?!

    And regardless of what you think, buying habits are the same with rich people as those less well off. The only difference is those with more money to spend can rationalize spending more money for certain things.

    It is not like they are thinking, "Hey I like the SC430 a lot, it has everything I want, and at a great price. But wait...I can afford the SL500 so I think I'll get that."

    So where do you draw the line between "most people" and "rich people"? You seem to imply there is a distinct line between those that can afford an S430 and those that can buy an C230. Does someones mindset change as soon as their income increases past your line?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Who knows, I'm done with it. Anyone who buys an E instead of a LS430 is dumb anyway.

    wishnhigh1,

    Ditto. But I can't help but say that anyone who seriously compares a Pontiac Bonniville to a 7-Series is an idiot to begin with. I know you understand that those two buyers couldn't be more different.

    ljflx,

    True, and I'm done with it.

    M
  • stevesteinstevestein Member Posts: 263
    I think a good barometer of how the cars stack up against each other is to follow the migration of people who have owned both.. where they ended up and how they felt about their choices.
    I got an LS430 after two MB, and it would take a major upheaval in one of the two brands to make me think of switching back. Most of the people I have seen posting in the LS board had previously owned MB as well, and also considered an S class purchase. None come to mind that regretted their decision to go with Lexus.
    How many former LS owners have switched to MB and been happy afterwards? To me this is a true test of how the customer base for both these cars perceives their relative merit, more than comparisons based on magazine statistics from people that have never had more than a test drive in either. The zealots on either side would not budge in any case, but the shakeout of the "undecideds" tells alot.

    ljflx - so this is where you and the crew have been hanging out!
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    The car does everything so perfectly that there is only so much you can discuss on the LS board. I also think that the individual boards are great for people who are currently pricing and to help anyone who is unsure of certain aspects of the cars or what options to go with. If you read in between the lines and past the loyalties, you can also get a lot of assistance on which model to go with. If I remember right you utilized those discussions in your product decision. Naturally they are also great for discussion of tire changes and the like and upcoming model year changes.

    There are many overhauls coming up for the 2004 LS but I don't even think Lexus has yet finalized what they will be. I'm glad because that's when I renew my lease and I'm not going anywhere. You're right about many of those who have switched. It's hard to leave near perfect reliability in the first place, let alone when the competing brands are slipping.
  • rcf8000rcf8000 Member Posts: 619
    I went from a l995 S500, which I had for 7 years and liked a lot, to an LS430, and I have never regretted it. Nor have I regretted not getting the new generation S500. I consider it to be a shrunken, cheapened version of the earlier generation car. I have owned 3 different Lexus models in the last 5 years, and the reliability has been far superior to what I have experienced with MB cars, not to mention the dealer experience. However, I have not given up on MB. I recently replaced my RX300 with a new E320 wagon. If Lexus offered anything close to it, I would have gone with Lexus. (How about a GS300 wagon, Lexus?) Except for marginally comfortable seats, I am really enjoying the E320 wagon.
  • adu1adu1 Member Posts: 47
    FWIW, rumor has Lexus planning a "sportwagon" (which can mean all kinds of things, these days) variant of the next-generation GS.
  • design786design786 Member Posts: 14
    I am about to order a 2003 745i. The question I have is regarding the Adpative Ride Package. I have tried all dealerships in my area to see if I can compare cars with and without this package but have been unsuccessful. Can anybody give me some hands on experience or insight into what this Adpative Ride is all about. I understand the Self Leveling part but will it make a dramatic improvement in ride quality (handling, etc) ?
  • magnetophonemagnetophone Member Posts: 605
    I don't consider this a real luxury car, but...


    http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=3229

  • carfan4surecarfan4sure Member Posts: 49
    When does the luxury tax expire? Is it Jan. 1, 2003? Anybody know, or is there another board that addresses this?
  • carfan4surecarfan4sure Member Posts: 49
    I think I answered my own question, if this is reliable:

    http://www.aiada.org/gr/issues/luxtax/luxtax.htm


    Anybody know any different?


    Tim

  • stlouisslimstlouisslim Member Posts: 21
    My LS430 has the Adaptive Vehicle Air Suspension if that is similar. The improvements in ride and handling appear to be only slight. The Self Leveling and lowering feature reduce the Cd, improve gas mileage, decrease tire wear and should reduce wear and tear on both the drive train and other suspension parts; but again the improvement is only slight. On the other hand, on many makes, it has the reputation of being the first major system to fail. My brother-in-law estimates that it will cost $3000 to replace a similar system on his Lincoln. It should cost more on a BMW. My recommendation is that unless it already comes on the car you want, don't order it as an option.
  • flint350flint350 Member Posts: 250
    ljflx and stevestein, I didn't know you guys were over here again and embroiled with some old adversaries!! I thought all the fun had gone out of this place when arcoates disappeared. I see at least one "benzaholic" is still battling, facts notwithstanding.

    And stevestein, that analysis based on movement trends between brands was very insightful.

    Can't believe I missed so many posts and such a spirited - if predictable - debate. Back on the LS board we're reduced to arguing about the nav system being a deadly distraction!
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Flint350 - I thought you were still reading. i would never want you to miss the fun. Some interesting comments on the S-class board if you haven't been there re S-class build quality and staying power.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,146
    Eric Gillin, a staff reporter for TheStreet.com, is doing a story about the luxury used car market and is looking to talk to people who have recently bought a used luxury car.

    Feel free to email Eric.Gillin@thestreet.com with your comments or contact information. Thanks!

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  • kdeyoungkdeyoung Member Posts: 1
    ihave purchased a 2002 ls 430-u/l with 4ooo miles.
    this is a rare find.bought from an estate sale,
    the dealer kept me from going to mb to sniff around.i bought the car for 58k from the dealer
    with 5.25% financing.lexus somtimes makes it hard
    to rear off to another brand name.the lexus financing is easy to hop on since they can play
    with the big boys in % numbers.so far this car is
    flawless except for the goodyear tires that need to be replaced at 35k miles
  • linardlinard Member Posts: 59
    http://germancarfans.zeroforum.com/zerothread?id=1698


    Our S class (1987) was safe, but this one tops our big time...

  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yeah that is amazing but nevermind that, Mercedes' aren't good cars anymore according
    to a special few on here.

    If it doesn't have the fanciest stereo, the softest leather, extra glossy wood, lowest sheen
    plastics, and coffin-like silence then it's a cheap pitiful car. Thats all you need nowadays
    to "impress". Nevermind all that wasted engineering beneath the car.

    M
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    All of these cars have great engineering. Some of the ones MB differentiates itself with only come as options and only end up on a handful of cars anyway.

    What's with all the exaggerations and more importantly what's with all the bitterness?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yes all these cars have great engineering, but for some if they can't see it in the interior's plushness, or window sticker it isn't important. Safety is one of those things.

    "Some of the ones MB differentiates itself with only come as options and only end up on a handful of cars anyway."

    Not entirely true. Electro-hydraulic braking is on every E-Class and SL. ABC is available on all the S and CL-Class cars, and MB's unequaled safety engineering is present on every car they make.

    "What's with all the exaggerations and more importantly what's with all the bitterness? "

    What exaggerations? That seems to be all the talk on here now, plastic quality, wood and stereos. If a car doesn't excel in those areas it's not up to par, everything else doesn't matter. Not bitter at all, just going by the mood on here lately.

    M
  • wishnhigh1wishnhigh1 Member Posts: 363
    So youre saying that Mercedes leaves absolutely no room for improvement in the area of interior quality?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Sure they do, but plush leather, fancy stereos and the like was never what made a Mercedes a Mercedes. It was always the engineering and features that seperated them from the rest. Something that they still do admirably I might add, engineering. I guess I'm just tired of reading about plastics, leather and stereos, things that can be had in any car.

    M
  • pluskinpluskin Member Posts: 79
    Seems to me that since you are paying a premium for a Benz over any equivalent car in its class, there should be no excuses. If you are paying top dollar, shouldn't their interiors be up to par?

    Anyway, great engineering is a matter of perception. Are Mercedes clearly better engineered than other luxury makes? Do they handle better than BMW's? Have better reliability than Lexus's? Better craftsmanship than Audi's? Safer than Volvo's? Are features like electro-hydraulic braking or ABC adding significantly to your driving experience?

    Don't get me wrong, they are for the most part very nice cars. But this vaunted engineering prowess is mostly a thing of the past.
  • cul8tercul8ter Member Posts: 10
    You have to remember that merc1 has never owned a Mercedes or any of the other cars discussed on this board. So, his opinions are all based on what he has read or on test drives. He has not had the privilege of sitting in the Mercedes service department for four hours only to find out that they are going to need to keep the car for a week to repair some malfunction. The engineering of my S500 has seen many more days in the service department than my LX470, LS430, H1, and Volvo S80 combined. I am confident that all of these vehicles would withstand the most severe accidents. Unfortunately, there's always a question in the back of my mind as to whether all of the electronics based safety devices (air bags, abs, etc.) in my S500 will work properly when needed. Does good engineering equal reliable engineering at Mercedes Benz? Maybe, when it comes to safety systems, but definitely not when it comes to any other aspect of the car's engineering. Anyway, I know merc1 seems to have plenty of positive things to say about Mercedes, but I don't think it would be wise to put too much stock in his opinions because they are based primarily on what he's read or what someone has told him. It would be like expecting a person who has read every book about playing baseball for the Yankees and has talked to every second baseman who's ever played to be able to suit up and play second base for the Yankees. How much do you think that person would love the Yankees or second base after seeing how it really is to play in the majors?
  • wishnhigh1wishnhigh1 Member Posts: 363
    "Seems to me that since you are paying a premium for a Benz over any equivalent car in its class, there should be no excuses. If you are paying top dollar, shouldn't their interiors be up to par?"

    Amen!

    World class car engineering should include the engineering that goes into making all customers happy...not just the engineering that goes to making engineers and car enthusiasts happy.
  • magnetophonemagnetophone Member Posts: 605
    if I'm correct, merc1 has too owned Mercedes...
  • magnetophonemagnetophone Member Posts: 605
    And by the way, I own a Mercedes that is ultra-reliable and gives me no problems whatsoever.
  • wishnhigh1wishnhigh1 Member Posts: 363
    You own one of my favorite Mercedes models. Ive actually been looking around for a 2.6 lately.
  • linardlinard Member Posts: 59
    cul8ter - I agree with you that the failure of any component on a car such as a Mercedes is unthinkable, it is not the sign of weakness or deterioration on Mercedes' part. While many of believe Mercedes to be subpar on reliability scores, I still believe they still are the tops in durability. I have enough friends and acquantances that service the luxury marks to generalize the longevity of Lexus, Mercedes, and BMW. These mechanics believe that an E class will outlive any GS or LS Lexus and even the 5 series BMW. Go to Europe, you'll see Mercedes being the main brand utilized by taxi drivers and services. This is due to the fact that those E classes will go 200 to 300 miles w/o major failures (such as those of major driveline components or structural deterioration). These taxis are then resold to private owners who cannot afford a newer luxury make. While Lexus is tops in reliability, it's long-term durability is not as trusted as Mercedes. For example, I have seen a lot more tired 90-93 LS' than same period S Classes. In addition, the plastics of the Lexus, which I can vouch for as my extended father figure has had two, do not hold up as well as those of a Mercedes (of which, we've had three). They are much softer I agree, but they are not as durable. The leather fits along the same lines, much softer in a Lexus, but find any 4 year or older Lexus with average miles, and you'll see much more wear and tear than in a Benz.

    While many of you have also discussed the group that has switched from Mercedes and to a lesser degree BMW to Lexus, I know many who have switched from Lexus to Mercedes b/c there is a perceived difference in qualities such as solidity and perceived safety. A friend of mine who has a 2001 LS430 didn't realize how unsatisfied he would be with his car is now trying to sell it. He also has a 92 SL that he's trying to sell as well since he can't fit in it anymore. But he will agree that there is this sense of solidity that you can't quantify in a Benz.

    Reliability is difficult to gauge as the typical Mercedes driver will more angry at any mechanical or electrical issue than that of a Lexus driver. I myself know of hoards of Mercedes drivers who have had no issue on their late model Mercedes. Mercedes, while rated less in reliablity than Lexus, is similar or better than BMW and Audi.

    In the end, I do believe Mercedes must continue improving it's perceived and actual quality which I think will be marked by the year 2003 as the new E and CLK class have been rated ahead of their competitors in European publications. They both have been heralded as a return to traditional Mercedes values of quality. The S class receives a much needed interior revamp, the SL is just wonderful, and the M class has one less year of life.
  • sweetjeldoradosweetjeldorado Member Posts: 94
    You are lucky that you are one of the few that has a very reliable 190E.

    However, I don't feel they are true luxury since they break down all the time. And to make matters worse, I see more '86-'92 E class than '84-'93 190 Es. How is that?

    Simply put, the 190 is pure garbage and if you look at most of them that are around today, they look like crap as well. And I am surprised that they have not aged well like the 300E compared next to them. Those 190s creak and rattles over minor potholes and bumps now. Poor condition automobiles at best.

    J "CaddyLac"
  • magnetophonemagnetophone Member Posts: 605
    Actually the 190E from 1989-1993 was one of the most reliable Mercedes' ever. The 2.6 engine is a shorter stroke version of the 3.0 and is in fact as reliable... the 2.6 was more widely produced worldwide as the 300E 2.6 or 260E was more popular in most countries. My car is basically just like a smaller version of a 300E, I don't see how they are garbage at all. The 300E has aged better, but then again, they started out with richer owners and people are more willing to put money into a more expensive car to begin with than a compact.
  • magnetophonemagnetophone Member Posts: 605
    By the way, Jaguars broke down all the time and lots of Bentleys do too but they're quite the epitome of luxury.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I'm glad you know me so well. You're right I don't own a Mercedes, neither do I know of anyone that has owned one. Nope. I'm going completely by what I've read and seen on TV. Makes sense.

    I have stated a many times that Mercedes-Benz needs to get reliability under control especially since they're taking technology further and further with each re-design. Agreed.

    What gets me about certain people in here is that they'll tell you that a Benz is made of Kia grade plastic and a sound system so bad that you can't hear it. Every Mercedes is this cheaply built, poor handling, terribly unreliable side-of-the-road car.

    Lexus on the other hand has never ever had a problem, no recalls nothing. Perfect in just about every way. Good-looking, welded correctly from the factory, outhandles BMWs etc, etc.

    Pluskin, handling like a BMW was never part of the design brief for any Mercedes except the C-Class. Where is it written that a Mercedes has to out-handle a BMW? BMW for all their "handling" doesn't move nearly as many cars as Mercedes does over 50K. Handling plays second fiddle to cracked engine blocks and failed SMG transmissions. Don't get me wrong, I love BMWs, but this "handling" thing is getting a little absurd now. Nowhere other than at the C-Class level has Mercedes ever said anything about BMW and trying match their handling.
    As far as safety is concerned I think you need to see the photo about 10 or posts back. I seriously doubt any other car would have held up as good as that S430 did. Only Volvo comes to mind.

    "World class car engineering should include the engineering that goes into making all customers happy...not just the engineering that goes to making engineers and car enthusiasts happy.

    Nearly impossible. You can't make everyone happy. A Mercedes never was and never will be as "plush" as certain cars it's not the MB way. If you want gushy-plush, Cadillac and Lexus will gladly sell you a car. If Mercedes went that route their traditional customers would be gone.

    M
  • wishnhigh1wishnhigh1 Member Posts: 363
    So youre saying that if Mercedes started using high grade plastics and had the latest in nav system technology and had the greatest of stereos available in any car, then all the traditional Benz buyers would be pissed off and wouldnt buy a Benz anymore?

    Last time I checked, Benz was in the business to sell cars. Lexus sells more cars than Benz. Do you think that Mercedes doesnt really care enough to try to cater to the tastes of the new modern Lux buyer???
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    You ask:

    Are Mercedes clearly better engineered than other luxury makes?

    Do they handle better than BMW's?

    Have better reliability than Lexus's?

    Better craftsmanship than Audi's?

    Safer than Volvo's?

    To answer your first question, Yes in most ways they are. Though it's lost on the uninformed or the type that can't get past the window sticker or that all important 10 minute test drive.
    Do they out-handle BMWs? No, never were intened to. Better reliability than Lexus. No. No argument there. Safer than Volvo's thats a good debate since Volvo is the only other company that can hold a candle to Mercedes' experience with safety engineering. Better craftsmanship than Audi. Not quite. Does a Benz suffer the problems that Audis have? Nope. Side note: I love Audi too, but they don't build a car even cable of standing next too a Benz over the long haul, once all the wood and leather treatments get old.

    What I'd like to know is what car does all of these things in one singular package. Outhandles a BMW, more reliable than a Lexus, better made than a Audi, safer than a Volvo. What car does all of this? Please tell me because I want one.

    Does ABC and SBC add anything to the driving experience? Every driven an Mercedes with these features? How do the SL55 and SL500 overcome their heavy weight to post excellent handling numbers? Ever read any posts here from S and CL owners with ABC on their cars?

    "This vaunted engineering prowess is mostly a thing of the past."

    Oh really, I'd like to know what other company is pushing technology like Mercedes.

    M
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