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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    OK. Yes, that's an acceptable explanation and I see your point. Now please don't miss my main point, here. You know that essentially a lot has been made out of nothing. Just look at the posts.

    :)

    TagMan
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    They do measure two different things. But there is one thing in the AP"E"AL, and that is execution. On the very site it says that the execution "includes" structure, continuous reliability, so-on and so-on. How on God's green Earth is the execution 100% yet reliability and "ease of use" suck badly? Please do a better job of persuasion as the current montra is getting old.......

    Doc, you've passed your blurred(or selective, whichever works) vision off onto everyone who participates on this thread, and hence the huge Ball of Confusion.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    My gosh - you are so caught up in this thing about CR and JDP that it looks like an obsession to disprove them. Why - because they are not reporting what you want to read or what your beliefs are?? Don't waste your time trying to disprove them. They are both enormously respected and benchmarks in the auto industry and in some cases bonus and incentive plans are built around their results. For the record CR is posting the summation of what folks are saying about their car's in a survey of it's readers and JDP is a polling company with a representative sample that is reporting the result of its research. It is not their opinion - they just set the standard bars that their reports are based on. The data comes from the owners and lessors. You're trying to make this into a car rags opinion, which is always heavily biased. It's not - not even within a light year of that - It's instead the drivers of the cars that are speaking and it's pretty clear you don't like the language being spoken.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    37% decrease in July sales. OUCH!

    I must say though that I find the guy so likable. But the spots aren't working.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Disastrous month for auto sales and they are up over 16%.

    http://pressroom.toyota.com/Releases/View?id=TYT2006080119384
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Merc1: IYO, what other reasons, other than cheaper price, makes the LS a best-seller in its class ?

    Its sterling reputation for quality and reliability.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I'll bet that the percentage is more like 75% lease 25% buy. I don't know anyone that buys these cars anymore. The whole price structure is set up for leasing.

    I don't doubt that and have no figures to prove otherwise, but still...leasing doesn't apply to every single buyer and for those whom it doesn't is where price makes at least some type of difference.

    M
  • ew3074ew3074 Member Posts: 20
    Well...so the sales tells us the fact that Toyota/lexus is still growing strong no matter how people on edmunds dislike Toyota/Lexus.
    Toyota/lexus, keep up the good work and fix the issues.
    And you will be #1 sooner or later
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    There's always the dismissal of the business side here but guess what - smart business sells a lot more cars than enthusiast moves do.

    That isn't true LJ, the dismissal comes in when Toyota/Lexus supporters try to tell us that buyers care about these things. No one here is under the impression or illusion that smart business doesn't sell cars. The key is to satisfy both sides to a degree like Porsche or BMW does. They both make money and they push all the right buttons with car nuts, especially Porsche. There is no reason why every car company can't do this.

    This whole thing about "business" only gets shot down when it is implied that Toyota's way of doing things is the only way, i.e. making a ton of money but all dullard cars. There is nothing wrong with making some true enthusiast cars while turning a profit, something Toyota/Lexus folks don't seem to want to admit.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well you do realize that this time last year, GM, Ford and Chrysler were basically giving away cars with employee pricing. They had record sales during the summer of 2005 so the numbers are expected to look bad this year. That applies to GM and Ford though, Chrysler brought back employee pricing this summer and it didn't have nearly the impact that it had last year. Detroit as a whole is now paying dearly for depending on SUVs and trucks all this time.

    M
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    No one here is under the impression or illusion that smart business doesn't sell cars. The key is to satisfy both sides to a degree like Porsche or BMW does...

    So you are essentially asking Toyota to be who they are not ! I mean, how can you fault a car business running on auto pilot as the Toyota/Lexus machine is currently on ? They have their DNA in the market, just like you correctly noted for the LS' stellar sales success - sterling reputation for quality and reliability. And that reputation makes them successful... Why change that formula ?

    Every successful company must carve out a niche/calling card/DNA (call it whatever you like) that the market buys into. BMW has the performance/handling, ditto Porsche, Lexus is the other extreme, solid build quality, reliable machine, and luxurious to boot. Somewhere in the middle (to one side or the other) are the likes of Audi, MB, Jaguar, etc... Some are very successful at it, others struggle at it.

    Toyota sells cars that MOST people want, not ALL people. Fact is BMW and Porsche COMBINED do NOT have the profitability, market share and share size of the juggernaut called TOYOTA, despite making cars that benefit the so-called performance-biased crowd.... Sucks, but its the truth. Personally, if I were Toyota, I'd be careful to making too many wholesale changes to my DNA... Don't want to upset the applecart, you know... Maybe Merc1 needs a trip to Harvard Business School to better understand what makes Toyota a runaway success it is today... I am sure it will change his perception of Toyota/Lexus forever...
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I don't like their new ads ,or approach. Lincolns are no better ....are there any? Can't remember.

    Seriously though - Cadillac's whole new image turns me off, as do the cars. They don't make real Cadillacs or Lincolns anymore.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    I think the point, if I may speak out of turn, of the IQS and APEAL survey comparison is that one would assume there would be some correlation between the two (I will dispel this theory below)

    If a vehicle is rated at the BOTTOM of the IQS then one would reason that the individual would not be happy with their automobile and would rate the APEAL accordingly low.

    So if the IQS is very low, and the APEAL is high, I assume something is askew.

    Also, it’s my understanding (have not studied the site) that the surveys are based on individuals’ responses and therefore are filtered through that individual’s expectations.

    E.g. a Hyundai owner may receive the survey and state that every thing is excellent and they are extremely happy…after all “it’s pretty good for a Hyundai”. A MB owner (for example) may inspect their automobile with a more critical eye…and as a result tally up more “unhappy” items.

    Not to suggest Lexus owners (since they are at the top of the IQS) are easier to please than MB/Audi/BMW etc owners; just pointing out that surveys based on “what do you think” do not always have a clear conclusion they seem to imply.

    The “highest” HELM I’ve owned was an Audi A6 and had numerous items for “adjustment” with each dealer visit (I had them adjust the glove compartment latch 3 separate times…nothing was wrong with it…I just wanted it a little looser…then tighter); everything was perfect in that automobile.

    A subsequent Honda I purchased had a stain in the headliner that remained there for two years; as well as a number of other problems ranging from small to serious (3 days out of service)

    The skewed report: The Audi was far more reliable than the Honda, but if I were to count up the items that “needed” (using that term loosely) attention, it would appear that the A6 had more “problems”…but if I were to rate the APEAL it would be ranked very high.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    I've never ever read(and I read a lot) anything out of Germany that'll suggest a LS to be more reliable than a MB. That's not Germany's MO. Most rags there don't mention car and LS in the same sentence.

    Typical sentiment from a Germancarfan dissing Lexus, and the LS. Read that article syswei linked yet ? Maybe you'd not like this 2004 survey in this link as well, from Germany's Autobild magazine. Notice where MB, Audi and BMW are ranked in their own home country versus Toyota ? Or how about this one link which puts your fav Audi in a lot of positive spins, but you gather reading b/w the lines that Toyota will only gain strength in Europe especially when (not if) quality/reliability starts to dominate over engineering and beauty of the German cars...
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    You know that essentially a lot has been made out of nothing. Just look at the posts.

    Lighten up, will ya ? Did you not see the smilie in my response to Dewey ? If you don't expect such a survey to generate some heat, I guess you must be a newbie to HELM, eh ? ;):) :mad:
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I don't like their new ads ,or approach. Lincolns are no better ....are there any? Can't remember.

    Lincoln did a tiny bit of advertising for the Zephyr, but that was it. Lincoln's sole reason for existing at this point seems to be so that executives of brands like Saab and Jag can say "hey, could be worse. We could be working at Lincoln".
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    So you are essentially asking Toyota to be who they are not ! I mean, how can you fault a car business running on auto pilot as the Toyota/Lexus machine is currently on ? They have their DNA in the market, just like you correctly noted for the LS' stellar sales success - sterling reputation for quality and reliability. And that reputation makes them successful... Why change that formula ?

    Nope not at all. I don't see why everyone who champions Toyota/Lexus thinks that making an exciting car will ruin the business end. Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact if Toyota/Lexus started to cater to even a few enthusiasts their business would grow even further. Nobody is asking them to change who they are, only to remember that not everyone wants a sensible shoes transportation appliance in every category. If Toyota made a 350Z killer, a 35K Supra that looked great along with all the other positive attributes the previous Supra had I'd have one in a min! How is that hurting them? It isn't.

    Every successful company must carve out a niche/calling card/DNA (call it whatever you like) that the market buys into. BMW has the performance/handling, ditto Porsche, Lexus is the other extreme, solid build quality, reliable machine, and luxurious to boot. Somewhere in the middle (to one side or the other) are the likes of Audi, MB, Jaguar, etc... Some are very successful at it, others struggle at it.

    Sorry Oac but this doesn't hold any weight because Lexus doesn't hold anything "extreme" in the areas of solid build quality or luxury over Audi, BMW or Jaguar or MB, they're just more reliable. Those "others" as you say thrive in areas in which Lexus doesn't so it isn't nearly black and white as you imply with this statement.

    Toyota sells cars that MOST people want, not ALL people. Fact is BMW and Porsche COMBINED do NOT have the profitability, market share and share size of the juggernaut called TOYOTA, despite making cars that benefit the so-called performance-biased crowd....

    Very lopsided and downright silly to compare BMW and Porsche's balance sheet/market share with Toyota's. Uh...of course Toyota is going to make more money and have more market share than a luxury car maker like BMW and of course they'll do better than a small high-end sports car maker like Porsche...both brands sell cars for prices Toyota (and Lexus) can only dream about. However since you brought up Porsche, you should know that Porsche makes more money PER CAR SOLD than any other car company in the world. Period. BMW is also in the top 3 of this group. I'm not talking about the dollar amount, but the percentage of profit/return on each unit. Porsche is #1 in the world at this. If you're going to compare BMW and Porsche's financials overall to anyone it has to be Lexus, but does Toyota break out the financials for Lexus seperate from Toyota? Probably not. While we're talking about market share, why not look at what percentage of the sports car market Porsche has or the luxury car market that BMW has. Yes I know you'll say that Lexus is #1 here, but BMW isn't a one-market-only-wonder like Lexus. BMW's board likely couldn't be more pleased with their success. Ditto for Porsche and Honda too for that matter.

    Personally, if I were Toyota, I'd be careful to making too many wholesale changes to my DNA...

    You just don't get it Oac, no one is asking them to make wholesale changes to their DNA, only to remember that not everyone wants a sedan or suv. In the past Toyota has made cars like the Supra and Celica and MR2 and up until recently those cars were successful and it didn't hurt their business one bit. Surely the super smart Toyota could change some things around with those models only in order to grow their business that much more? If they can't then they're the biggest one-trick pony in the business.

    Don't want to upset the applecart, you know... Maybe Merc1 needs a trip to Harvard Business School to better understand what makes Toyota a runaway success it is today... I am sure it will change his perception of Toyota/Lexus forever...

    Again, the point has been missed here. What on earth does this have to do with the cars sitting on the showroom floor? No one buys a Toyota or Lexus because of their stellar business practices, though I know certain Lexus/Toyota fanatics here would like to think people do but they don't. Others have proven that you can run a succesfull, heck a highly successful business while catering to the enthusiast and I'm not even saying that is what Toyota/Lexus should do, they only need one or two models to help shed some of the stick-in-the-mud image. If you get the sensible shoes buyers and the enthusiasts in the same showroom buying different products you'd have the market truly cornered! Even LJ can see that.

    There isn't a place on earth that I could visit outside of a Lexus or Toyota showroom with some or at least one stunning vehicle that would change my perception of Lexus or Toyota.

    Again, having solid business end (Porsche or BMW) doesn't mean you have to have dull cars, Lexus' business would grow that much more if they had something, hell anything that lit the fire of an enthusiast. Keep the yawners like the LS/RX/ES true to form, but their is no reason why the GS, IS and that upcoming sports car have to be so dull and yawn inducing. This implication that a solid business can't be had while appealing to enthusiast, in Toyota/Lexus' case just a little not a wholesale change, is just total nonsense. Toyota has managed to do just that before even conservative types like Honda manage to do it. If Honda can do such with a cars like the S2000 or Civic Si that blows this (Toyota) theory about good business has to made or can only thrive on boring cars right out of the water!

    All this about Toyota being a runaway success is a double-edged sword because there is slow buildup of evidence that Toyota's lock on reliability/quality is slipping right along with all this success (increased production).

    cont....
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I remember a time when Toyota/Lexus fans claimed that continued bad press took a huge toll on Mercedes-Benz's sales and image. Now does the same apply to Toyota now? Sex scandals, millions of cars being recalled left and right with articles about it all over the net daily. Does this have any effect on Toyota like it was claimed to have on Mercedes-Benz? I mean the articles are endless on this and the president of Toyota had to publicly apologize recently for his company's out of character behavior. Or is all this irrelevant to buyers unless they've experienced some kind of problem themselves?

    Anyway.........

    No Toyota fan here will ever be able to convince me that Honda, BMW or Porsche are doing something wrong just because they don't make the same dollar amounts that Toyota does every year when they manage to appeal to both the "investors" and the "enthusiasts" alike.

    This constant harping about Toyota's business and how it would be ruined by making a few cars outside of their normal dullard ways is either an excuse for them simply not being able to do so anymore or it is used by those who think they know what Toyota is all about, but don't because if they looked at Toyota's past they'd realize that sports cars and sport coupes have always been a part of Toyota's makeup as right along with the jillion boring sedans and SUVS they have today.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    What JDP says is [emphasis added]:

    The J.D. Power and Associates Initial Quality StudySM (IQS) provides manufacturers and consumers with information on quality after 90 days of new-vehicle ownership. The study examines 217 vehicle attributes, and reports on a broad range of problems reported by owners.

    • Automotive Performance, Execution and Layout Study (APEAL)—APEAL examines what consumers like about their new vehicles after 90 days of ownership. Often referred to as “things gone right,” APEAL is based on eight categories of vehicle performance and design: engine/transmission; ride, handling and braking; comfort/convenience; seats; cockpit/instrument panel; heating, ventilation and cooling; sound system; and styling/exterior.

    It is true that they are asking about certain elements of the car in both surveys. While they haven't provided the actual questions for us, one can imagine that an IQS question might be of the form, "Have you experienced a complete breakdown or malfunction of the brakes in your car in the last 90 days?", whereas an APEAL question might be of the form, "Do you like the way your car brakes?". Think about this one: if a hypothetical car had "great brakes" that stopped the car in 20% less distance than any other car and just "felt" great, but had a breakdown rate greater than average (suppose 5% of owners experienced a brake malfunction whereas 0.5% is typical for the industry...I am inventing numbers here)...then the same car could score well in APEAL's braking category (because 95% of owners perceived that it had great brakes) but poorly in IQS's braking category (because a greater than average percentage of owners experienced brake malfunctions).
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I haven't really been reading what all the fuss is about with the surveys this time around, but I do think JDP should have broken the IQS into two surveys because certain brands (like BMW) rank differently when you break down the two categories they used this year:

    A little something I saw on MBWorld.org, someone posted the breakout for the study:

    Auto news
    More rankings

    June 8, 2006

    Email this Print this Related articles:

    • J.D. POWER SURVEY: Hyundai leapfrogs Toyota in quality
    Overall quality
    The number of quality problems reported by buyers of new cars and trucks continues to fall. PP100 % change
    1998 176
    1999 167 9.00 5.11%
    2000 154 13.00 7.78%
    2001 147 7.00 4.55%
    2002 133 14.00 9.52%
    2003 133 0.00 0.00%
    2004 119 14.00 10.53%
    2005 118 1.00 0.84%
    2006 109 9.44 8.00%

    Pickup quality
    Pickups remain one of the last strongholds for Detroit automakers. General Motors Corp. trucks ruled the roost on quality, followed closely by Toyota.

    Pickup truck PP100
    Chevrolet Silverado LD 98
    Chevrolet Silverado HD/GMC Sierra HD (tie) 101
    Toyota Tundra 103
    GMC Sierra LD 104
    Ford F-150 107
    Dodge Ram LD 117
    Pickup average 118
    Ford F250/350 127
    Chevrolet Avalanche 132
    Nissan Titan 145
    Dodge Ram HD 147

    Design defects
    The annual report by J.D. Power and Associates separated manufacturing and quality defects for the first time. This is how many design defects, such as difficult-to-use navigation systems or door locks, were reported per 100 vehicles. DESIGN SORT Design PP100
    1 Porsche 35
    2 Hyundai 41
    3 GMC 43
    4 Jaguar 44
    5 Lexus 45
    6 Nissan 45
    7 Honda 46
    8 Toyota 47
    9 Chevrolet 49
    10 Lincoln 50
    11 Ford 50
    12 Acura 51
    13 Dodge 51
    14 Mitsubishi 51
    15 Infiniti 52
    16 Industry Average 52
    17 Saturn 54
    18 Pontiac 55
    19 Mercury 56
    20 Jeep 56
    21 Cadillac 57
    22 Kia 58
    23 Chrysler 59
    24 Volvo 61
    25 Audi 62
    26 Scion 62
    27 Saab 63
    28 Mazda 64
    29 Suzuki 66
    30 Buick 68
    31 Mercedes 68
    32 Subaru 69
    33 Isuzu 70
    34 VW 73
    35 Mini 77
    36 Hummer 80
    37 BMW 82
    38 Land Rover 89

    Manufacturing defects
    The annual report by J.D. Power and Associates separated manufacturing and quality defects for the first time. This is how many manufacturing defects, such as engine or paint problems, were reported per 100 vehicles. Brands Defects PP100
    1 Lexus 42
    2 Porsche 49
    3 Toyota 52
    4 BMW 52
    5 Hyundai 53
    6 Chrysler 53
    7 Cadillac 54
    8 Buick 55
    9 Honda 57
    10 Infiniti 57
    11 Jaguar 59
    12 Audi 60
    13 Acura 63
    14 Lincoln 63
    15 Industry Average 64
    16 Volvo 64
    17 Mercury 65
    18 Mercedes 65
    19 Mini 65
    20 Subaru 67
    21 Chevrolet 69
    22 Ford 69
    23 GMC 70
    24 Nissan 70
    25 Saturn 70
    26 Pontiac 70
    27 Scion 71
    28 Dodge 72
    29 Kia 72
    30 Mitsubishi 78
    31 Mazda 79
    32 Hummer 79
    33 Jeep 87
    34 VW 87
    35 Saab 91
    36 Suzuki 93
    37 Land Rover 106
    38 Isuzu 110

    2006 Nameplate rankings
    Consumers reported the following number of quality problems -- including manufacturing defects and design flaws -- per 100 vehicles in J.D. Power and Associates' annual quality survey: Brands PP100
    1 Porsche 91
    2 Lexus 93
    3 Hyundai 102
    4 Toyota 106
    5 Jaguar 109
    6 Honda 110
    7 Cadillac 117
    8 Infiniti 117
    9 GMC 119
    10 Acura 120
    11 Chrysler 120
    12 Lincoln 121
    13 Nissan 121
    14 Chevrolet 124
    15 Industry Average 124
    16 Ford 127
    17 Mercury 129
    18 Saturn 129
    19 Audi 130
    20 Dodge 132
    21 Pontiac 133
    22 Volvo 133
    23 Buick 134
    24 Mitsubishi 135
    25 Kia 136
    26 Mercedes 139
    27 Scion 140
    28 BMW 142
    29 Subaru 146
    30 Mazda 150
    31 Mini 150
    32 Jeep 153
    33 Saab 163
    34 Suzuki 169
    35 Hummer 171
    36 VW 171
    37 Isuzu 191
    38 Land Rover 204

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Thanks, it's good to see more detailed rankings. And I agree that "design quality" should have been a separate study, not lumped into IQS.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I've talked to S-Class owners at MBWorld and some of the APPEAL questions are like: how does the car smell, or how do the seats feel after hours of driving and various styling questions. I can't link you to forum per Edmunds rules, but some of the 07' S-Class owners posted some of the questions from the APPEAL study. Interesting stuff.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Ford is launching a strategic review of its Jaguar brand and other ailing operations. The review, spearheaded by newly hired adviser Kenneth Leet, could lead to the sale of assets or broader alliances with other companies.

    source WSJ
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Couldn't find it, but interesting.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I wonder how a difficult to use navigation system is classified as a design defect if it is performing perfectly as originally intended?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I guess the "problem" is that owners feel it should be easier to use in the first place. Clearly BMW got knocked for those types of things vs actual mechanical defects because they scored in the top 4 on "quality".

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    We could debate whether "design defect" is the appropriate terminology, or what survey that sort of issue really belongs in, but the bottom line to me is that a well-designed/easy-to-use NAV, working perfectly, is better than a poorly-designed/hard-to-use NAV, working perfectly. So these things do matter.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    but the bottom line to me is that a well-designed/easy-to-use NAV, working perfectly, is better than a poorly-designed/hard-to-use NAV, working perfectly. So these things do matter.

    Definitely agree there. Unfortunately, despite the mags (and apparently consumers) complaining about iDrive, most of the luxury automakers think its the greatest thing since sliced bread, and have made their own similar system. Acura's in particular is a mess. In the RDX, the control knob takes up so much space on the center stack that the stereo controls are literally buried beneath it. The volume knob looks about as large as a thumb tack.

    image
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Well, as these cars become more and more technologically sophisticated, iDrive-type gizmos are becoming the norm.
    I can't see Lexus holdng out much longer in this respect.
    Would love to see what they do with an iDrive-like interface.
    No doubt, it would be the most user-friendly.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Wow! That control knob is located where the radio should be.
    Progress? :sick:
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    SOURCE: Wall Street Journal dated Aug. 2 , 2006 ( First and foremost I, Dewey hereby disclaim any responsibility of the content from WSJ.com--drivel or non-drivel)

    1)For well over a decade, BMW has focused its marketing almost exclusively on its cars' German engineering and technical sophistication, and targeted its message to one very specific customer group -- upscale auto enthusiasts.

    And that is exactly the way it should be.

    2)In a break with that formula, the company is promoting a corporate culture of independence and innovation. One advertisement in a new campaign that has turned heads in the auto industry highlights the design by architect Zaha Hadid that BMW chose for a striking glass-walled factory in Leipzig, Germany.

    Did I not see a similar Phaeton Ad from VW promoting their state of the art glass factory in Dresden, Germany? This is definitely an ominous signal for BMW.

    3)BMW's shift in direction began last year, after an internal study revealed 1.9 million consumers bought luxury cars in 2004, and 1.4 million of them didn't even consider BMW. Of those, about 600,000 said they were looking for cars that are fun to drive -- which should be BMW's forte. "That is low hanging fruit," says Jack Pitney, BMW's head of marketing in the U.S.

    Huhhh??? So people are unaware that BMWs are fun to drive? The handling dynamics of BMWs are unknown in this market? What a load of bunk!!

    Most luxury buyers know that BMW cars are fun to drive, it's just that they have other priorities like higher reliability or they may seek a more luxurious softer ride.

    4)GSD&M suggested BMW target the wealthy group of high-achievers author Richard Florida described in his recent book, "The Creative Class."This "idea class" is made up of self-motivated architects, professionals, innovators and entrepreneurs, and numbers about 1.5 million people. They typically are not car nuts although they buy luxury automobiles. They prize innovation, authenticity and, above all, independent thinking.

    So the creative classes would not be interested in the older BMW ads emphasizing engineering, performance and handling? I dont think so. Independent thinkers are dependent on ads telling them repetitively how independent BMW is? What kind of independent thinker would depend on such ads for a car purchase?? Sounds to me that BMW is being misguided by picking a flavor of the month theory (compliments from Professor Florida) to base their marketing plan on.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Thanks again dewey. Good thing you added your disclaimer up front. ;)

    Regarding BMW, in the earlier part of this year I spent a lot of time posting my concerns about BMW's vulnerability regarding their market demographics, vehicle models, and what I would characterize as standing on their preceeding success instead of looking forward enough. I also expressed my major concern that Lexus was targeting BMW more directly than in the past.

    I remember referring to Lexus as "snipers with powerful scopes that had BMW in their crosshairs". Few agreed with me, and I was the lonely poster for the most part on this point of view, but I still maintain my position.

    Yes . . . I still maintain my position and believe that Lexus will continue its assault on BMW which is in its earliest stages (as well as Mercedes, of course) and BMW will clumsily react from wounds that it does not even perceive correctly. Just watch.

    TagMan
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Youn know - whenever you go against your own business model you end up having problems and retrench back a very high percentage of the time. There aren't many success stories out there about companies that alter course. One can argue that Lexus is an example about a successful buiness model variance but to me Lexus didn't reorient Toyota's business model. It was more like creating a new branch of the tree. BMW has a great niche and IMO has to screw up to blow their position. Why risk that niche? Also it sounds like that nonsense about 2/3rd or 3/4's of luxury customers not considering BMW is an overstatement for the purpose of justification.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    BMW has a great niche and IMO has to screw up to blow their position. Why risk that niche?

    That's the million dollar question, isn't it?

    The Lexus IS is one reason. Imagine ANY real threat to the bread and butter 3-series, and a reaction is inevitable . . . quite possibly one that "screws up". Also, with the new upcoming LS and the new S, what does BMW have in that class to be competitive?

    Again, as the market and competition evolve, there ARE some areas of concern at BMW, and to rely soley on the "niche" as though it is not vulnerable is foolish, IMO.

    I see interesting (and quite challenging) times ahead for BMW.

    TagMan
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    "I don't doubt that and have no figures to prove otherwise, but still...leasing doesn't apply to every single buyer and for those whom it doesn't is where price makes at least some type of difference."

    Makes no sense. I'm not positive on the number but do know over 50% LEASE luxury cars, and if they are paying similar monthly payments for a less expensive sticker priced car, that kind blows your time and time again argument that the LS sells better because of it's cheaper price. I've said it before and I'll say it again, that argument is lame and just plain wrong. And then when you add in the simple facts that: 1) Lexus builds ONE LS model vs. about MB building 7-8 maybe more(who can keep track?) models. 2) the business premise that offering more variations of a product should get you more sales. your argument of the LS outselling S-class because of price is mute at best.

    And when all those people who cross shop a more expensive S-class and the cheaper LS and end up paying about the same for leasing the LS, what does that say about the Lexus LS???


    M
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    boy, when you grab a tiger by the tail, you really reach down it's throat and grab it from the inside out. Now back to sitting back and enjoying the fireworks.... :shades:
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Hey maxhonda99,

    Not a good idea to use the "M" sig. It's potentially confusing on the forum and garyh may end up representing merc as you are in violation of merc's unregistered but widely accepted trademark. ;)

    Regarding your post, however, it has long been established that the Lexus advantage is primarily based upon "value" as it relates to

    1)the price/content ratio
    and
    2)reliability

    If Mercedes and Lexus had the SAME reliability ratings, believe me things would be different. And even MORE equalizing would be if the prices were equivalent.

    Just for the sake of isolating those two primary Lexus purchase factors, consider that if a Mercedes S-class and a Lexus LS were the same price with the same reliability, I have little doubt that the Lexus world would be turned upside down.

    So do not forget what defines the Lexus success story.

    It's all about reliability and PRICE (value) and the marketing to back it up. To even SUGGEST that price is not relevant is ridiculous.

    :D

    TagMan
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    good idea
  • reality2reality2 Member Posts: 303
    Your comment is very interesting and relatively true as Lexus seeks to develop somekind of "image" or "soul" to its existence in the marketplace around the globe. Yet, Lexus is a bit player world-wide compared to BMW and does not hae the models to take on the serious machinery from BMW. However, the real luxury carmaker that should worry BMW is Audi. This is quite obvious considering the asencion of Audi not only in Europe but globally as well. Audi is moving in a very "stealth" fashion in terms of marketing, culture, profitability(up 36% in the first quarter of 06' so far), and other various aspects of brand building that are not always visible, but doing wonders across the globe. Plus, building some badass automobiles that easily top BMW and the rest in many ways...not to mention one ultra successful and heritage laden motorsport program causing some serious concern down the autobahn in Munich. Who is the true "sport luxury" brand now? Actually, if you look at various vehicle comparisions from the many auto rags over the last couple of years, Audi has easily won the majority against BMW in the various classes of direct comparisions. This is what BMW centers its existence on, isn't it?

    And only in the US would the Lexus IS be seen as a possible competitor to the 3-Series. BMW worrys more about the A4 and the C-Class as true competitors to the 3-Series. The A4 continues to do extremely well considering it has been around for a very long time in its current form waiting for a serious replacement next year. The A4 continues to be one the best in its class.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Interesting that you would say this. I agree 100% about the Audi factor. It's just another reason for BMW to watch its back.

    I'm clearly on record in this forum as one who is keenly watching what I have referred to as "Audi's ascension".

    TM
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Plus, building some badass automobiles that easily top BMW and the rest in many ways...not to mention one ultra successful and heritage laden motorsport program causing some serious concern down the autobahn in Munich. Who is the true "sport luxury" brand now? Actually, if you look at various vehicle comparisions from the many auto rags over the last couple of years, Audi has easily won the majority against BMW in the various classes of direct comparisions. This is what BMW centers its existence on, isn't it?

    You've got a good point there. Audi isn't much of a threat (yet, perhaps) to BMW in the U.S., but they definitely are a top rival in the world stage. Quattro Gmbh is also a more direct competitor to Motorsport than AMG is. Most AMGs are rocket fast, but not usually "sports cars" in the way Audi RS cars are. Watching the CL65 try to get around the Top Gear track was pretty humorous. As they put it "in the corners it turns into just a regular Mercedes".

    The RS4 managed a 1:25 lap time, a second faster than the Z4M and M5. More importantly, Clarkson, who usually hates Audis, said it was better than the M3.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I was under the impression that Audi already outsells BMW on a worldwide basis. Does anyone know if that's accurate?
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Yes syswei, Audi outsells BMW. Primarily on the heels of the A6, the world's best selling premium car, followed be the A4(and it's 11 variants, 6 of which we can't get).

    Audi is one of those compannies that you have to watch. Even with the many posters who shall remain nameless say that Audi isn't a true or "tierless" HELM, the maker is on a big path to spread it's talent. Starting with the RS4, the RS 6 which will be here next spring(with the Gallardo's 510hp/500lb ft V10 and dry-sump), and the R8/10/12. The company is very serious about head-butting MB in the sport class.

    Then you have the '09 A7, which will feature a CLS-esque design cue and S7 variant, and of course the big kahuna, the new '09 A8. This car's base form will be a 4.2L 450-hp V8, followed by the S8 600hp V12(this go around), and a 400hp/710lb-ft of torque uber-clean V12 TDI w/ Micro Trap.

    I have nothing but astounding confidence in this maker. The company has demonstrated the talent and know-how in manufacturing world-class cars. But......

    BMW won't sit idley. The new 7 is coming, along with a first ever M7. The 3-Series is getting a bump in hp over the 300 mark for '07, and the refreshed 5 is due in '08. The successor to the Z8 is also on the books....

    Maybe this is why the Germans posted the strongest gains in history this quarter, especially with the blazen new product over at MB.....
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    OAC, my fellow car nut, you've hit an all time low. First you gather info on a unreliable German mag from 3 years ago, then secondly you posted something from a mag that is now defunct??? Not the best thing to do if what you're doing is to prove me wrong..... The old tumble cycle on the dryer is wearing out, don't ya think?

    I've got one. Again, how is that a "tierless" Audi A8 outsells the LS in it's homeland Asia(Japan, Thai, and China) 3-1? In many questionaires throughout the continent, consumers see the car as nothing more than a overly large Toyota.... So much for cheap labor and switching to the "L" grille for the first time in 2004... Didn't work.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    There was once upon a time Mercedes stood for bullet-proof reliability, just like once upon a time Lexus was a value story, when it was competing with Lincoln and Candillac. . . . comes to think of it, almost every single real luxury brand had its roots in outstanding reliability compared to its contemporaries, including RollsRoyce and Bentley, both had roots in endurace races. BMW and Porsche are primarily performance brands, not luxury brands.

    Brand image and reality change over time, however. Nowadays, Mercedes is the cheap source of luxury-branded cars thanks to heavily subsidized leases. It certainly beats the alternative: extinction by trying to sell overpriced lemons :-)
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Don't you think brand new and immature dealer network has something to do with that? Audi has been in those markets for decades, whereas Lexus is brand new to Japanese home market. Audi is also made in places like China whereas Lexus is not so perhaps their government bureacrats (the majority of buyers of those cars in those countries) have to operate under those rules about domestic manufacture?
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I thought everyone knew the LS is nothing but a re-badged Toyota.
    Ya gotta hand it to 'em though-brilliant marketing scoring a bullseye at the American psyche, calling it a "Lexus".
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Overly large Toyota? As opposed to a gussied up Volkswagen? Hmmm, I'll take the large Toyota thank you!!!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Actually I am considering a Q7 for Dec purchase, to replace our LX. Unfortunately the early owners haven't had a good experience according to reports on the Q7 board (one quy says his service manager said that 30% of Q7s have been back in the shop already, and not for regular maintenance). Other possibilities are the 07 MDX or (if that looks to also have problems), a GX.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    I don't doubt that and have no figures to prove otherwise, but still...leasing doesn't apply to every single buyer and for those whom it doesn't is where price makes at least some type of difference.

    The willful blindness to lease offers really undermines the europhiles' intellectual honesty. Lease or buy, whichever is the lease expensive way of acquiring those buggers is what really matters, especially since the overwhelming majority of Mercedes are leased nowadays. MSRP on a Mercedes is no more relevant to the cost of getting one than MSRP on a Cadillacs or MSRP on jewllry . . . sure, some suckers may actually pay that or for very special specimens at very special times . . . but for the overwhelming majority, it's completely and utterly irrelevent.
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