High End Luxury Cars

hpowders · August 2006

I will be looking at the 2007 MDX also.
Spy-photos appear to reveal a much more stylish truck-probably at a significantly higher price.

tagman · August 2006

Your post is full of baloney. Here's why . . .

once upon a time Lexus was a value story, when it was competing with Lincoln and Candillac

WAS a value story? How 'bout IS a value story?

comes to think of it, almost every single real luxury brand had its roots in outstanding reliability compared to its contemporaries,

So untrue. Consider that the British luxury cars were not so reliable as you claim. It isn't until recent history that Jaguar, for example, has ever been considered a truly reliable car.

Nowadays, Mercedes is the cheap source of luxury-branded cars thanks to heavily subsidized leases. It certainly beats the alternative: extinction by trying to sell overpriced lemons

All just a pathetic portrayal of Mercedes Benz and what it represents, historically, present day, and as it moves into the future.

TagMan

houdini1 · August 2006

I would hang onto that LX. After driving it you will be disappointed in the others.

brightness04 · August 2006

APEAL != Appeal

APEAL stands for "Automotive Performance, Execution and Layout." It's entirely different from "Initial Quality."

IQ is a statistic study of manufacturing quality, whereas APEAL consists of many subjective fields, most of which have to do with design not manufacturing quality.

syswei · August 2006

I would hang onto that LX.

It is a 2000, doesn't have a nav or backup camera, and it guzzles. So the thought is that we want to improve on all those things (if only slightly, as regards mpg). And the LX replacement, allegedly coming in the spring, is going to be too big for us.

tagman · August 2006

Did you need those Lexus flip-flop seats in the back? In other words, do you need a third row? Makes a huge difference in choices.

If you do, the MDX may be the right choice, and a new version is about to be released. Acura is known for one of the very best nav systems at any price, has a backup camera, bluetooth, fold-flat third row, and all of the latest. Its size hits a sweet spot as well. Something to consider if you need that third row.

TagMan

ljflx · August 2006

Syswei,

You nay want to see what happens with the GX as I'm told it may move up a notch in size to the LX size and go hybrid as well. I'm still wondering if they will ever make the HPX. The LS hybrid and HPX would be my first two choices for my needs and would look great inside the garage.

syswei · August 2006

Yes we need a third row, preferably not of the Lexus design, which my wife hates. If the MDX doesn't appear to have significant first-year issues, it is probably going to be our choice.

syswei · August 2006

I don't think the GX will see significant changes for MY07...and I kind of told the family that my wife would get a new vehicle for this xmas. I still need to look into the availability of KDSS on the GX, as I hear body roll is a big problem with the standard suspension. My wife's friend actually traded in a few-month-old GX in favor of an RX because the GX's body roll made her feel unsafe.

vreeland · August 2006

Audi has come a long way, and it is because of quality.
Nothing like an Audi, but I like Jags the best.
How would you compare an Audi to a Jag?
George Vreeland Hill

ivan_99 · August 2006

APEAL != Appeal

I know,

"the Automotive, Performance, Execution and Layout (APEAL) Study, which measures customer perceptions on the design, content, layout and performance of their new vehicles."

I was attempting to point out one would think a high IQS would translate into a high perception of the design, content, layout and performance of their new vehicle  APEAL; but more importantly a low IQS would tarnish the APEAL.

I gave a personal example of where that was not the case in my situationand that ultimately the surveys are useless because they are based on an individuals expectations, not the vehicles actual quality or functionality.

I generally prefer reviews/conclusions of experts such as Edmunds, C&D, etc, than an accumulated survey of auto reviews from people like my wife(its always made that soundisnt it supposed to pull to the rightI didnt know you had to tighten the gas caphow do I set my seat memory position2 years later)

houdini1 · August 2006

They may refer to Mercedes prestige in France and other European countries. In the U.S. it is known as snob appeal!!

blkhemi · August 2006

Brightness, yes it is true that Toyota just recently started using the Lexus nameplate it's native Japan. But the LS has always been there, right along side the Crown. While not called the LS, the car was definetely a bold move on Toyota at the time, especially seeing how frugal their "CEO's" are there, really.

And moreover, the A8 is not made anywhere else except Germany. No other manufacture has the support to build the precious aluminum body and quattro system. This is not to say that some parts are not domesticated from Asia, such as the optional Japanese Cherry wood interior..

hpowders · August 2006

Everyone knows the LS is the car many folks (but not all) get when one can't afford the S class. It is a pure value play for a lot of people.
Nothing to be ashamed of.
$60-75K is no small change.

However, many of these folks rationalize their purchase by saying the LS is much more reliable than the MB.
What nonsense!
I have never seen a MB, Audi or BMW stuck on the side of the road in the last 25 years.
Folks, face the truth:
Anybody who gets an S Class can get an LS, but not all LS buyers can step up to the price and prestige of the magnificent MB S Class- unanimously praised as one of the greatest sedans in the world-and priced accordingly.

blkhemi · August 2006

I'd like to know what reports in which you may be referring to as AGS(Audi General Service) has said that the Q7 is actually in a better start than the easier to maintain A4 and both of it's platform mates, the T'Regg and the Cayenne, which was just recently given the most reliable moniker of any SUV above 50k. At bit contradictig to say the least...

BTW: AllData also backs this up. So 30% of this supposed service manager's saying could've been in for the free complimentary Audi Accessory of the owners choice? Maybe for installation of a special order part? Of the 29k(worldwide, 4800 US) Q7's sold, wonder how many are actually "breaking down" in Lexus talk? Hardly any.

blkhemi · August 2006

Smart business technique indeed. Toyota knew full well what it was doing by not slapping the golden "L" on anything Japan. Took 14 years to do it. Why do you think that is? How does a German car be the #1 car of choice in a Asian market, even more so in emerging markets?

syswei · August 2006

the LS is the car many folks (but not all) get when one can't afford the S class. It is a pure value play for a lot of people....many of these folks rationalize their purchase by saying the LS is much more reliable than the MB.
What nonsense!

One could equally well say that "many S owners bought because they are insecure and needed a high-prestige car to feel better about themselves and show off to their neighbors, and then rationalize their purchase by saying they really bought not because of prestige and their own insecurities, but because of the heritage and styling of MB."

hpowders · August 2006

Of course you speak the truth, but Team Lexus will tell us that Lexus is completely separate from Toyota with its own factories, parts, sales experience, showrooms, etc.

Once more the wool has been pulled over the eyes of a segment of foolish Americans as the LS is no more than a Toyota in most of the rest of the world.

I am not saying that the LS is not a very fine vehicle.
Toyotas are very fine vehicles-one of the best value plays across the board-from the Corolla all the way up to the LS.

blkhemi · August 2006

For sure you're talking about the Phaeton and not the A8. The A8 was designed solely by Audi. The A8 shares absolutely no body panels with the Phaeton. Audi lent VW it's expertise in the field. And Audi also coined the W12 by joining two narrow-angle V-Dub-sourced engines together to form what is the smoothest(including the ultra-hushed 4.3 Toyota V8) engine in it's class. Nice try houdini, but this magic trick failed. You know what happens when you fail continously......

BTW: Talking about the LX and GX here. For someone wanting a bloated Toyota, take the 4-Runner and add 3 inches of roof and , viola, you have a GX470, tipsy-turvy and all.

Even more simpler, add different lights and an "adaptive" air-suspension to the Land Cruiser, and viola, we can charge an extra 15k and call it a LX470. Nice trick, but no one's amazed......

hpowders · August 2006

"Nice trick"

Toyota hit a home run with their sociological/psychological analysis of the American consumer.

If they can rebadge a Land Cruiser with a few minor upgrades, charge an extra 15k and call it a Lexus LX470, more power to them.

hpowders · August 2006

"Many S owners bought because they are insecure."

Come on now! This sounds so foolish.
The last quality I would ascribe to someone driving a brand new S Class is "insecure."

blkhemi · August 2006

Jaguar's(particularly the XJ) have always had a spot somewhere on my list of very fine cars. While half-stepped attempts such as the X/S-Type have absolutely turned the water cold, the XJ8/R is one of those cars that fly under the radar so well that you have to expect the unexpected. And the XK8, WOW, save for the front grille, I'm completely estatic over it's semi- Aston look.

With that being said, the Audi brand has all of it's competitor's rolled into one, and then some. This is not to say that the competitor's are lacking(albeit some are), but Audi has culptivated the marketplace so well in such a small timeframe. Case and Point: To be as ballsy as to sell a RS 4 at 70k (29% over a M3 and C55 AMG, 35% over the Yank but very cool Caddy CTS-v) only to have it fly off of the lots as fast as they can make them(a 1 year back log with 8k units planned for the world) speaks volumes about where the company is headed. The pre-orders for the S6/S8 are as far as into next summer only adds to this. Many a Lexican have complained about the Q7 being a :lemon: , but how can that be when it has only been on the US market for 2 months? The same goes for the S550, many jaws dropped when the reports showed the car to have a 96% better reliability and quality repore than the old W220. Such as life, you can't please them all..

Back to Jag. I for one appreciate the company for not following suit on the SUV craze as every manufacture isn't meant to have one. That's why LR is in PAG for. The company's quality has improved so much so that some have actually forgotten about the nuisances they once were. I've seen snippets of the X and S-Type replacements, and if the Aston guy who designed the new XK gets his hands around the concept that I saw, then we may be talking a different tune come '08... All in all, I dig Jag's XJ/XK, but the X/S-Type have gotta go. Soon preferrably....

ew3074 · August 2006

What nonsense!
I don't think this is a nonsense. This is truth
Lexus cars are more reliable than MB or BMW. I believe this is also part of the reason why certain amount of people choose lexus over other luxury brands.
However, I may agree the statement below
but not all LS buyers can step up to the price and prestige of the magnificent MB S Class- unanimously praised as one of the greatest sedans in the world-and priced accordingly.

blkhemi · August 2006

Insecure? Insecurity buys you a RR Phantom, maybe to a lesser extent, a Continental Flying Spur, not a S550. $90k surely doesn't cure insecurity in the buyer. But 60k will definetely get some luxury hopefuls in the ball park.

hpowders · August 2006

I believe the reliability gap has closed dramatically.

From my own experience, I have had 3 BMW's with no problems.

Thousands of people have "taken the plunge" with Audi, MB and BMW and they didn't die.

Not wanting to step up to an S Class because "the LS is so much more reliable", is an irrational excuse, IMO and is probably being used as a cover for the true reason, whatever that may be.

hpowders · August 2006

Yeah. I should be so insecure to wake up tomorrow with a brand new $95k S550 (with Active Body Control, of course!) in my garage!

drfill · August 2006

Lexus has built a heavy rep. And everything else will bow to Lexus as far as quality goes, unto further notice.

Same goes for Mercedes' prestige.

And BMW's drivability.

DrFill

syswei · August 2006

So, let me get this straight: in your view, many LS owners would have bought an S if they could have afforded one. So, why is it so hard to believe that insecure S owners couldn't afford to step up to a Phantom or Flying Spur?

blkhemi · August 2006

I'm not sure where you're going with the argurement. You started this whole insecure thing. Why on Earth would a insecure person want a car that is as attainable(in other words-readily avaiable) like an S-Class?

Now you're talking a $90k v. a $180k and a $340k cars? Somethings not quelling very well here. The FS costs more than double what a S550 starts, and 340 large Phantom???

The S is only 25-30k more than a comparible LS, and thus, that is why it is in it's class. The same for the S600, and the FS, while the S600 is 140k, the FS is 180, a full 40k over it's price range.

hpowders · August 2006

Your argument borders on the absurd.

The LS and S-Class are direct competitors and it is logical for an LS owner to aspire to the S-Class.

It is illogical for an S-Class owner to aspire to a Flying Spur or Phantom which are quantum leaps away in price.

blkhemi · August 2006

Close your eyes and wish upon a shining star. You'll never know what that hefty leather wallet of yours may behold.

syswei · August 2006

Try to be more logical. You are the one who brought up the Flying Spur and Phantom, right here.

[link corrected]

hpowders · August 2006

Well I could possibly see an S550 in my future but the Phantom will never happen for me.

hpowders · August 2006

Maybe so, but YOU had the wisdom to make the following analogy:
LS:S Class = S Class:Phantom

blkhemi · August 2006

My you're very good at twisting things. Ever think of becoming a acrobat? Re-read your link and it will prove I never said the cars are in the same class. What was said was a insecure person would opt to purchase an irrational car such as those heavyweights. Please don't dig that whole any deeper, you may dig to China.......

syswei · August 2006

Why on Earth would a insecure person want a car that is as attainable(in other words-readily avaiable) like an S-Class?

If the S is so attainable, why do you claim that many LS owners would buy one, but don't because they can't afford one? If they can't afford one, doesn't that mean by definition, that it isn't so easily attainable? Please try to be logical in your thinking. Please.

syswei · August 2006

What was said was a insecure person would opt to purchase an irrational car such as those heavyweights.

And what I'm saying is that not all insecure people can afford cars in the Phantom and Flying Spur price range. Why do you find it so hard to accept a statement like that?

syswei · August 2006

corrected the link in this post. It was supposed to point to blkhemi, not hpowders.

oac · August 2006

How does a German car be the #1 car of choice in a Asian market, even more so in emerging markets?

BlkHemi, I haven't caught up to the rest posts but wanted to answer your rhetorical question here: As someone who spends time in Japan annually, I have come to know that the name "TOYOTA" is the gold-standard in Japan. That was why the Celsior was branded a Toyota in Japan, and an LS in the rest of the world. The Celsior is the real deal Lexus. Made specifically for a purpose... not in the true traditional Toyota production, but raised to a bar never before seen within Toyota. To know more about the LS, visit any Lexus dealer and read up on the making of the LS.

By contrast, just like America favors foreign goods over locally produced ones, same it is in Japan. The thirst for foreing cars - BMW, MB, Audi, VW - makes these cars good sellers in Japan. Class is important and these German marques brings that to the uber-rich Japanese. Lexus will take some time to grow its name brand in its local market. With time we'll see if Lexus becomes a recognized brand in its home country to rival its German competition. But I suspect it will take a very long time to happen, due to the reasons I laid out earlier.

ljflx · August 2006

You keep trying to incite today Hpowders. First its a post about the LS being an overdone Toyota that no one bit on and now this absurd post. You must be bored to death today or maybe those BMW sales figures bothered you yesterday. A long time ago we discussed the Lexus story off of one of these left field clueless posts of yours. No need to rehash or waste people's time all over again. So get real and while you are at it create something worth discussing instead of trying to start another flame war for your own entertainment.

blkhemi and syswei - too bad you both fell for his post. This is exactly what the guy was trying to accomplish.

brightness04 · August 2006

Your own post is full of baloney, here is why . . .

Jaguar was first and foremost a sporting car brand built by makers of motocycles and sidecars (similar to BMW). Its success rooted in rally success of the pre-WWII era . . . not the overpriced lemons of the 70's and 80's. The overpriced lemons of the 70's and 80's only turned Jaguar into a Ford brand.

Reliability is at the root of almost every luxury car brand's rise to prominence, including MB's own. How long an empire can survive past its prime is an interesting study.

brightness04 · August 2006

LS was a car primarily engineered for the US market. The other Toyota luxury brand, Crown, engineered for their markets, do far better than A8. BTW, A8 doesn't have to be built in those bureacratic countries before it enjoys the official blessing: having a lot of A4 and A6 built there would do just fine. Didn't MB executives get busted for bribing foreign officials only a few years ago? Same story.

brightness04 · August 2006

With zillions of car brands in China, it's hard for any mature Western/Japanese brands not to be in tier 1. For what it's worth, VW/Audi has been in the Chinese market the longest among all Western/Japanese brands; yet, it just lost the sales leadership to GM there last year!

hpowders · August 2006

"And will continue to grow...."

Couldn't have said it better myself.

hpowders · August 2006

"Bikhemi and Syswei- too bad you both fell for his post."

Guess they don't have your awesome insight which seems to be if you don't like a post with a ring of truth to it, you resort to condescending character assasination.

In one post you managed to insult 3 of us-Blkhemi, Syswei and me.
They responded to me, not because they "fell" for my post, but because they saw the merit in it.

hpowders · August 2006

Uhhh...BMW sales of the 5 series are up 12.8% for the first 7 months of the year.
Sales of the 7 Series are up 11.4% for the first 7 months of the year.

The results are fantastic!

Even better, the S Class sales are up an astonishing 95.8% for this year.
Yes. Looks like the new LS doesn't stand much of a chance.
My condolences. Heh! Heh!

tagman · August 2006

Anybody who gets an S Class can get an LS, but not all LS buyers can step up to the price and prestige of the magnificent MB S Class- unanimously praised as one of the greatest sedans in the world-and priced accordingly.

You are on a roll tonight hpowders.

I guess you remember when I first posted that statement a couple of months ago, and you embraced its true meaning and replied about "logic 101" at the time.

Keep up the good work.

TagMan

hpowders · August 2006

Seems like whenever the truth is revealed, the guy from Joisey has to resort to insults instead of debating.

When I mentioned the LS is a rebadged Toyota, which is a fact, I am told I must be having a bad night and am looking for a war.

I understand his frustration-being duped by Toyota like that.

hpowders · August 2006

"Keep up the good work."

We are entrusted with a noble task,Tagman-defending the best vehicles in the world in their price-class from irrational attacks by the sonambulant gated-shifters of this world.

ljflx · August 2006

This board is sinking to an all-time low when we have the type of trash and word usage stated here tonight and please note the side it arose from. That side can win the battle for all I care but too bad the broader issue of having taste and class is a lost cause. Battle won, war lost. Too bad also that people can't act like adults. I've posted for 5 years here and we've had intelligent disagreements - but this silliness (for want of a much better word) and immaturity is not something I want to be a part of anymore. I'll post on the LS board but my days here are done as are my posting back to certain posters on whatever boards I still post on.

Merc1 - you and I are buddies and I'll always post back to you on the boards I stay on as we've been at this in the right way, and in a positive way (or at least it always ended positive) for so many years now.

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