High End Luxury Cars

magnetophone · October 2002

Worldwide, Mercedes sells way more cars than Lexus.

ljflx · October 2002

Your the one person that can cut through all the hearsay on this board. You own top of the line MB and Lexus - so how do they rate in terms of satisfaction, dealer service etc. I was nip and tuck with the S-500 but went LS430 because I felt it was the better car for me and fully expected the perfect reliability I've had with Lexus for 8 years now. In fairness to the S though it was based on a few test drives but I had way too mamy doubts about MB reliability and dealer service as well.

I also have the LX470 and find it a great SUV. Incredible ride for such a big vehicle. How does the H1 rate against it or vice versa?

cul8ter · October 2002

Before I go into my thoughts on each of my cars, I'd like to comment on how this message board is a perfect example of how statistics are only as objective as the opinions that back them. I recognize that 100 S500's lined up side-by-side will not have the same reliability or quality problems that I have had with mine. I also recognize that if 100 S430's were driven through a wall and off a building, neither the driver nor the car would survive in every instance.

All of my cars are pretty good cars. I have a high level of satisfaction with all of them but for different reasons.

The H1 is worthless as far as every day transportation goes, but I didn't buy it to be comfortable getting from point A to point B. It has a very strong presence and gets more attention than you could ever imagine. When I want attention, that's what I drive. I used a Bentley for this purpose in the past, but Bentley's don't get as much attention as the use to.

If more than 5 people need to go with me somewhere and it doesn't make since to take a limo to the destination, I take the LX470. I don't care much for the way it looks from the outside, but everything else is excellent. When I need space and comfort, I drive the LX.

The S80 was purchased strictly because it is very safe and I insisted that my child have one of the safest cars available. It blends in well with other cars and doesn't draw too much attention to my child.

In all the ways that matter to me, the LS430 and the S500 are exactly the same. If I'm going to a place where S500's are more prominent, I drive the LS430. If I'm going to a place where LS430's are more prominent, I drive the S500. The differences in the cars make excellent topics for conversations. I like these two because both are very comfortable when I have to drive somewhere that's more than 30 minutes away. My dealership experiences are probably different from most peoples because I am treated very, very well at all of the dealerships that I actually visit. Most of the time I have someone else take the car in for me though. So, from my perspective there's very little difference. I do notice that other customers who are at the Mercedes dealership while I'm there are not treated nearly as well as I'm treated, but the other customers at the Lexus dealership are treated about the same as I am.

Ultimately, when you have every car you want at the same time, the differences between them aren't as significant as they seem when you don't have them all. If I had to make a choice between cars, I think the differences would be magnified.

merc1 · October 2002

"So youre saying that if Mercedes started using high grade plastics and had the latest in
nav system technology and had the greatest of stereos available in any car, then all the
traditional Benz buyers would be pissed off and wouldnt buy a Benz anymore?"

No what I'm saying is that the differences you and others harp upon aren't that great nor do they make enough difference for hundreds of thousands of car buyers all over the world that STILL buy all these poorly made, poorly sounding and poorly navigating Mercedes-Benzes. That shows that leather, plastics, stereos, and nav system do NOT a Benz make.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Every luxury brand in the U.S should sell more cars than Mercedes-Benz Why? Mercedes' average car is around 50K, there is no way they should be selling as many cars as they do in the U.S., the fact that they do is a accomplishment in itself. Furthermore the sales gap between Lexus and Merceds isn't all that big anyway, BMW, Lexus and then Mercedes....they're all in the top 3.

And as pointed out Lexus doesn't mean squat on the worldwide scene.

M

wishnhigh1 · October 2002

"What I'd like to know is what car does all of these things in one singular package. Outhandles a BMW, more reliable than a Lexus, better made than a Audi, safer than a Volvo. What car does all of this? Please tell me because I want one."

Want to know the purpose of my arguments here? I think, given the fact that Mercedes has the largest R&D department of any automaker in the world, and given how much Mercedes cars cost in comparison to their competition, that Mercedes should outhandle a BMW, be more reliable than a Lexus, better crafted than an Audi, and safer than a Volvo. But they dont...and they dont come close.

"No what I'm saying is that the differences you and others harp upon aren't that great nor do they make enough difference for hundreds of thousands of car buyers all over the world that STILL buy all these poorly made, poorly sounding and poorly navigating Mercedes-Benzes. That shows that leather, plastics, stereos, and nav system do NOT a Benz make."

So what does it hurt to have these things? Is it ruining Benz to have these luxuries? Benz can only gain more customers by offering these things. Shouldnt be too hard for the worlds oldest automaker, right?

merc1 · October 2002

"Want to know the purpose of my arguments here? I think, given the fact that Mercedes
has the largest R&D department of any automaker in the world, and given how much
Mercedes cars cost in comparison to their competition, that Mercedes should outhandle a BMW, be more reliable than a Lexus, better crafted than an Audi, and safer than a Volvo. But they dont...and they dont come close. "

They don't come close huh? I say bull. Says who? You're not making any sense anymore. Mercedes' cars were never about handling in the same manner as BMWs so why would they all of sudden make this fundamental change away from their core philosophy of luxury for a bunch of people who wouldn't buy a Mercedes in the first place, no matter how good it handled. Understand, Mercedes was not made on "handling" like BMW was. It's interesting that just a few posts ago you, yourself stated that Mercedes was ahead of Volvo in safety but now they're (MB) not even close. I mean which is it? The only thing I agree on is reliablility.

"So what does it hurt to have these things? Is it ruining Benz to have these luxuries? Benz
can only gain more customers by offering these things. Shouldnt be too hard for the worlds oldest automaker, right? "

They do have these things, just not up the standards of some, and from what I'm thinking those same people wouldn't buy a Mercedes anyhow, they'll never get it "right" in their eyes.

Like I asked the other poster, what car does all of these things?

M

pluskin · October 2002

Are Mercedes clearly better engineered than other luxury makes?
"Yes in most ways they are. "
And these ways are what? I'm not convinced. I'm an automotive engineer, and have seen a lot of objective benchmarking data on Mercedes cars. I don't think they make lousy cars or anything (okay, maybe the SLK), but I haven't seen any of the uber-engineering that you rant about. Let's face it. You have an image in your mind of German super-engineers, efficiently working in their German way to deliver the ultimate in luxury vehicles. Except in reality, their products are the ultimate in price, and no better than their competitors in anything else.

"Oh really, I'd like to know what other company is pushing technology like Mercedes. "

Lexus is smart. They let people like Mercedes work the bugs out of new technology, and then implement it when they can deliver it free of flaws and reliability problems.

Of course all companies are working on lots of neat new technologies. Its just a matter of how much risk you want to take that the technology will give you manufacturing issues, reliability problems, etc.

magnetophone · October 2002

So do you own any Mercedes or have you owned any, merc1?

wishnhigh1 · October 2002

"It's interesting that just a few posts ago you, yourself stated that Mercedes was ahead of Volvo in safety but now they're (MB) not even close. I mean which is it? The only thing I agree on is reliablility."

I do believe Mercedes is ahead of Volvo, but they are not close to anything else I mentioned.

"Like I asked the other poster, what car does all of these things?"

And like I said before, Mercedes should, but they dont.

ljflx · October 2002

Anyone read the Edmunds review? Tough indeed. It's amazing that MB can get away with a truck like that. I saw one on the road and I was half expecting Al Capone to get out of it. It looked small, narrow, ugly and hardly luxurious to me. But it certainly is unique and has the MB badge so they will sell the 2 or 3 thousand they are importing.

sweetjeldorado · October 2002

I read it. Personally, I concur with you on this ugliness related to the G500 also. I rather have an H2 anyday of the week. Now that is a beautiful rugged SUV that H2 is.

J "CaddyLac"

merc1 · October 2002

"Except in reality, their products are the ultimate in price, and no better than their competitors in anything else."

Really? Then I guess they've not only fooled me but the entire automotive industry. Why would anyone benchmark Mercedes if there wasn't any substance to any of their engineering accomplishments? You're not making any sense. Where have you been the last 100+ years?

"Lexus is smart. They let people like Mercedes work the bugs out of new technology, and
then implement it when they can deliver it free of flaws and reliability problems."

Exactly, thats why they'll forever be a follower. Lexus can't do squat with their flagship sedan until they find out what Mercedes is doing next. They're so smart they copied the previous S-Class' design. Brilliant. Question: What technology did Mercedes introduce that Lexus later perfected? Just dying to hear the answer to that one.

magnetophone,

Nope.

wishnhigh1,

"They are not close to anything else I mentioned."

Oh really. Thats just it you're always saying that a Mercedes just doesn't compare with anything and it's a complete slaughter. That is bs pure and simple.

"And like I said before, Mercedes should, but they dont."

No they shouldn't. You can't please everyone, period. Nor should they try. Some of those things you listed aren't even worth chasing down. Mercedes was never a handlin' sort of car like a BMW so again, why would they now change this? Again, for a few who'll never buy a Benz. I know you understand this.

On a different note, the G500 is a ex-military vehicle, it definitely won't appeal to everyone.
I guess the Hummer H1 is also graceful and "pretty" too right. I wouldn't expect any Lexus folk to even come close to understanding the appeal of it. Blandness is the name of the game there.

M

wishnhigh1 · October 2002

"What technology did Mercedes introduce that Lexus later perfected?"

The automobile!

JK:)

merc1 · October 2002

Exactly as I thought, not a thang.

M

pluskin · October 2002

"You're not making any sense. Where have you been the last 100+ years?"
For most of the last 100+ years, I wasn't yet born. If you're that old, perhaps you shouldn't be driving.

Really I could care less what they've achieved in the past. All I know is that their cars on sale now don't seem to be significantly better or worse than others in their class. In most attributes, they are not best-in-class.

"Why would anyone benchmark Mercedes if there wasn't any substance to any of their engineering"

Did I say their wasn't any substance to any of their engineering? Why do you twist and exaggerate everything anybody says to you? Anyway, Mercedes are very successful, of course they are going to be benchmarked.

merc1 · October 2002

"All I know is that their cars on sale now don't seem to be significantly better or worse than
others in their class."

Then what you're point in the first place?

"Did I say their wasn't any substance to any of their engineering?"

No you didn't, you were guilty by association.

M

pat · October 2002

Come ON people -- some of you have heard until *I* am sick to death of saying it that we are here to discuss the vehicles WITHOUT attacking each other.

We all have our different needs, wishes, wants and priorities. To attack someone personally for holding different opinions on any or all of those values is childish, foolish and outside your Membership Agreement.

This has been a very interesting, polite, stimulating and appropriately enthusiastic discussion for quite some time. Some one or maybe two of you have dropped in here with the seeming intent to upset all of that and turn this into a flame war.

That is not going to happen.

Give it a rest. We are going to talk about the vehicles and not each other.

Pat
Sedans Host

ljflx · October 2002

Did you happen to see the 03 Lund Cadillac CTS on page 126 of November Motor Trend. Looks great. You can also go to lundcadillac.com

I must say I also like very much the looks of the SRX. I'll definitely give it a look when my LX470 lease ends.

I was so-so on the CTS when I first saw it but it has really grown on me. But then again I'm a person who likes bland cars since I fall into the Lexus genre - so what do I know..

By the way a friend of mine just bought the H2 - in yellow - and I'll have a chance to ride in it on Saturday.

nealm1 · October 2002

1. I have given closer scrutiny to the new 7s I see on the street and am struck by (a) how beautiful the car is from some vantage points and (b) how ugly it is from others. Just what are the chrome strips running around the doors and windows supposed to do for the car's looks? BMW was so close to hitting a home run re: the car's appearance, but ended up with a mess. What a shame.

2. Did you see the article in the NYT Sunday re: the "new" big Jag? Apparently they took exactly the opposite tack as BMW. Rather than taking the risk of revolutionizing the car's appearance, Jag left the design alone; the "new" car is IDENTICAL in appearance to the existing model. Now, I LOVE the looks of that car; it is one of the most elegant designs I have ever seen. But when you do what is supposed to be a complete redesign on your flagship and leave the exterior design untouched, aren't you admitting that you are running on aesthetic fumes? Time will tell, but I think Ford could REALLY end up regretting its timidity.

sweetjeldorado · October 2002

I seen it. Gorgeous automobile and those dubbs (rims) are super tight.

So, have you driven the H2 yet? What do you think?

J "CaddyLac"

baron87 · October 2002

Yeah, you definitely see a lot of those and the new 7 around Chicago. The 7s looks have grown on me, but I still don't like it as much as the drop-dead gorgeous XJ. I'd take an XJ, especially the new one, over a 7-series any day...

ljflx · October 2002

I rode in it but didn't drive it. It was smoother than I expected and very roomy. Nice leather as well and overall a quality vehicle. The width is really something on that truck. But compared to an LX470 the ride is harsher and noisier. But then the LX rides as smooth and quiet as luxury cars. The H2 is definitely a special SUV but its not for the Lexus crowd imo.

I do like the way the SRX looks. My wife would feel more comfortable with that then the LX. Most likely it'll come down to that, the LX and the new Lexus GX when I'm SUV shopping late next year. I may look at the Sequoia as well but given its size its a longshot.

ljflx · October 2002

The 7 does look awesome in the rear view mirror but then you gulp when you see the car from the side. The rear actually looks nice at night thanks to its lights but awful in daylight. The car reminds me of Seinfeld's famous "festivus" episode where Jerry had a girlfriend that looked great in certain light/shadows and terrible in others.

new Jag - It has the first interior I've seen that rivals, maybe even beats the LS430. But I wouldn't want to own a car that has had hardly any body changes for 20+ years. I also can't forget how disappointed my next door neighbor was with his 96 model.

trentpa · October 2002

Have to agree that the 7's looks are growing on me, but only in black. Saw a silver yesterday and thought it was horrendous, from all angles.

maxhonda99 · October 2002

The soon to come redesigned Jaguar XJ looks different from the current XJ. Clearly differences are visible in from all angles, The car is slightly rounder, sleeker, and looks like it's finally in the new millenium, vs. the old one which clearly still looked like it was from the 80s. It's not revolutionary, but it is evolutionary design. I wouldn't confuse the new one when it comes out with the current model at all.

airmatic · October 2002

actually- i just saw a 745Li on the freeway (i believe black saphire metallic on grey) and that looks really appealing to me. Wondering whether or not I should have gotten the 2003 745Li instead of the 2002 S430 (cannot believe that the 745 is virtually/almost the same price as the S430)

By the way- i had the opportunity to test drive my neighbor/friend's new black/black 745i. Looks really impressive from the side with the gigantic 19-inch wheels. Love the chrome around the windows and overall styling, but i was disapointed that BMW didn't put in a DVD-based GPS system, considering how "advanced" the car is...

linard · October 2002

I personally prefer the S430 over the 745 in the style department especially an S with larger wheels. However, the interior of the 7 series, to me, feels tougher. But I think Mercedes rectified it for 2003 with new materials and switchgear. The problem with the 7 series is that the technicians do not know how to service the car. My close friend has a 745Li that has had around 20 days of non-service from minor warning lights to not starting at all. Each time, the dealership has not been able to quickly determine the problem. She has lately had issues with the whole I-Drive system, a warning chime for the seatbelt that wouldn't go off for 20 minutes went off when she tried to use the phone. Her voice activated system has been erratic but that wouldn't be a problem if the screen worked. I think she's going to trade it in with 2,000 miles for the revamped S500.

nealm1 · October 2002

You might be right, since I haven't seen the vehicle. (The Jag website doesn't even have a picture of the 2004). But the NYT article quoted (a) insiders at MB & BMW (b) industry observers and (c) Jag executives all of whom were quoted as saying that the new car is virtually indistinguishable from the existing model. (a) and (b) were asking what in the world Jag could have been thinking; (c) was defending the decision by saying that once you have found the "perfect design" there is no need to change.

As for the 7, I was just venting some frustration at BMW, which could have had a runaway standard setting design and screwed it up from the C pillar backward (and a few of the gee-haws and doo-dads). Lexus could use some of BMW's design daring; BMW could use someone from Lexus to ask "do you really want to do that?"

The experience of linard's friend is not surprising; anyone who bought a 7 thinking that it would be reliable hasn't been paying attention.

airmatic · October 2002

but I honestly have no idea what the c-pillar is at all. Is it the pillar that seperates the front and rear door?...

It seems to me that those who don't drive Jag's find them kind of bland, but I have a neighbor that drives a Vanden Plas model for over 10 years or so.

in my opinion, the s-class looks really great with Designo Espresso with the AMG chrome 18 wheels. My neighbor has one, and I cannot stop looking atit. I am either surrounded by that S500 or new 2002 jet-black on black 745Li. When I used to have a LS400, they used to keep asking me "Hey Will! STill driving that lex? Get a benz!" Alas, I did, and have had problems from day one that still aren't fixed today...

benznut · October 2002

The C Pillar is that which is situated between the rear windhsield and the rear quater glass. What separates the front and rear doors is the B pillar. And what separates the front door windows from the front windshield is the A Pillar. Hope this helps

maxhonda99 · October 2002

nealm1,

AFter looking at the pics a bit longer yesterday, I also think they could have gone further with the styling, so to say. At the same time, I think the 2004 XJ is distinguishable from the current XJ in most respects. The key respect is aerodynamics, the current Jag looks old and a lot of age shows in the flat A to C-pillar arc(or lack of arc) and well as the outdated clunky chrome surrounding the side windows.

Here's where I think they could have gone further, the rear end. It looks too similar to the current one. They should have done something more original with the lights. They look basically identical to the current one in shape and lighting position. Otherwise, I think the front end and side profiles are nice evolutions of the current XJ.

airmatic · October 2002

for clearing that up for me. I heard people saying A pillar... b pillar... all those pillars confused me. thanks for the information.

airmatic · October 2002

on the freeway again today saw a black 745Li on the road;and I noticed something i hadn't noticed. i saw a thin chrome strip surrounding the front and rear bumper, and I noticed a rather thick and notible strip of chrome on the roof on both sides of the car (they are about 1 inch thick, and they run from the windshield to the trunk.) so just a few minutes ago, I referred to my new 7-series catalogue, and they don't have any of the chrome-strips. and the strangest thing is that in my son's school, there are about 7 745i/Li models, and only some feature the chrome strips, the other don't have it at all) are the chrome only for Li models, or did the owners simply add them on? hmmm....

merc1 · October 2002

I think Jaguar did the right thing. Think about it, Jaguar has angered their traditional customers with the 2000-2002 S-Type and the X-Type, not being up to snuff in their eyes. The one that caused hearts to stop in England was the decision to sell a front-wheel-drive X-Type. They really couldn't afford to radically alter the last "true" Jaguar, at least in some peoples (Jaguarlites) eyes.

Ford isn't going to give Jaguar the funds to out-tech the S-Class, 7-Series or A8 so they've chosen to stick with classic style, while at least making the car competive on the technical front. The new XJ's interior is gorgeous, as is the exterior. However the new car is much more functional than before, and more importantly much roomier. For a good look at the new XJ take a look at the November issue of CAR magazine.

M

glamourlife · October 2002

Lexus is not even in the same league at the high end of the spectrum. Talk about cheap plastics, Toyota switchgear, and gaudy fake looking wood, the Lexus has it all.

Why are people asserting that the LS430 has some marvelous interior??! I wonder if they have honestly spent significant time in one and then compared it with a 7, S, or A8? The quality gap is extreme. The LS seems all show, with no substance. Their wood seems like its Faux, and the leather, plastics, and controls are cheap shiny Toyota grade.

Lexus represents a bargain, but once you get over $50K They can't compete. They are very reliable, but that does not necessarily mean durable. There is a HUGE difference between the two. The reliability edge is also diminishing. Jaguar, Cadillac, MB, BMW, and even Buick have all either closed the gap, or are in the process of doing so with new releases. For value driven buyers, Lexus is a good buy, although Acura, Cadillac, Volvo, and Infiniti are better in many areas.

As for premium automobiles, they are always a step behind in styling, technology, performance, and safety. They don't even offer automobiles on the level of the A8, 745Li, 760Li, S500, S55, CL500, CL55, SL500, SL55, E500, Z8, M5, S8, etc.

ljflx · October 2002

Lexus is in the discussion because you are dead wrong in your assertions. It has the best body build of all these cars and far and away the best reliability. Fake looking wood - really??? Enough said.

Merc1 - does this count as a putdown or not?

linard · October 2002

Yes, only the 7 series Li models have the chrome strip for the gutter rails in the roof. I think they make the car visually longer and much more attractive.

carnaught · October 2002

.....conclusions are subjective. Most of the rest of the automotive world doesn't agree with you. On the contrary, your criticisms of interior materials and designs have applied more to Mercedes. For example, look at the blank space below the radio in the dash of the new CLK500, and tell me that doesn't look base Nissan or Toyota. I suppose you think Audi interiors look cheap also.

glamourlife · October 2002

CarNaught, what automotive world are you referring to? Every review I have read has had strong praise for BMW's, Audi's, and MB's in relation to Lexus. I've read reviews where the old CLK was deemed superior to the (at that time) brand new SC430. The S500 and 7 series always place 1, 2. The E Class is the standard bearer for midsize luxury sedans, and the 5 series is the world's best sports sedan. BMW dominates most comparison tests, especially when the tests are skewed more towards performance. Benz always finishes strong, but is knocked a couple of notches down due to price. Lexus scores strong for reliability, value, and dealer relations, but it is always dinged for questionable derivative styling, lack of a "soul", and luxo-barge performance.

Audi definitely does not look cheap. Their interiors are very stylish and high grade. The new CLK500 has an interior of premium quality as well. Nothing in it looks even remotely like a Nissan or Toyota. MB's have always skewed more stark and functional than plush. Nevertheless, the new CLK and E raise the bar considerably for MB. These two are their middle of the road "bread & butter affordable" models and MB definitely made vast improvements with both over their predecessors(Save for styling/looks of the CLK).

And Ljflx Lexus is no where near the best body build. They are undoubtedly reliable, but again, durability and reliabilty are not the same. BMW's, Audi's, Porsche, MB's, Volvos, etc. have a more solid build quality that instills vault like construction. The Lexus in comparison feels thin and tinny. And yes, the wood looks fake and gaudy. Look at the rose tinted wood in the LX470 and compare it to wood found in the G500 or X5. The LX's wood is more along the lines of the Escalade's Faux Zebrano.

BMW and MB have aggressive new products planned that will continue to raise the bar even further. Lexus continues to look to both companies for direction. Name one innovation or technology Lexus has implemented? The German companies have their faults, but at least they take risks. Cadillac will even soon surpass Lexus as they continue to evolve and introduce new models. Lexus is "Old School". They are more out of touch with the younger generation than Mercedes, Cadillac, or any other luxury player. They need a radical injection of unique product, and unfortunately that is not even in the works for them.

pcbrs · October 2002

Glamourlife-

I always find it interesting when I read posts from such obviously biased and fanatical "car nuts". It's great being passionate about something, but your opinions can't be taken seriously when they are so blatantly biased and, in some cases, just wrong.

In my humble opinion, the Lexus LS430 is the most luxurious car in the ultra-luxury class, especially with its interior and smooth ride quality. The BMW 7 is the most athletic, and the MB S-Class is a great compromise between the two. I think Lexus is fantastic, but I'm not blinded to a specific brand or country like some. I'll be picking up my 2003 330ci in December, because I think it's a class above the IS300, A4, and C-Class. My feeling was that the LS430 was a class above the 7 and S, and that's why my parents drive one.

"Different strokes for different folks". Hope you enjoy your car(s).

Just so others can have a more objective opinion, please click the link below:

http://www.autoweb.com.au/cms/news/newsarticle.html?&id=LEX&doc=lex0109281

It looks like the professionals disagree with your assessment. From the website:

"The automobile industrys bible on interior design has declared the Lexus flagship LS 430 the Interior of the Year."

"Auto Interiors editors said they were taken aback by the way LS 430s multiple creature comforts and INNOVATIONS were so thoughtfully and seamlessly integrated."

"Kudos to the LS 430s engineers, who have set the standard for full-size luxury automobiles."

Just another opinion...

-Jeff

carnaught · October 2002

.....Amen.

ljflx · October 2002

I guess you see what you want to see. In the Ultra LS430 some of the wood has an exotic "granite" like look. In the non-ultra models the wood is as realistic and beautiful as fine furniture. I've got Baker and Henredon furniture all over my house so I know a thing or two about wood.

The body build on the LS430 is fabulous. All these cars have great body builds.

There's no problem being biased towards a brand or German brands but get realistic.

footie · October 2002

On initial quality, year in and year out, Lexus, particularly the LS430 is the winner. It's initial defect level for the last 4 years was about 1/6th of what the MB are. In everyone of those years the entire Lexus line has swept the JDPower Initial quality awards.

On Reliability, there is also no comparison. Consumer Reports ranks Lexus as Exceptional Reliability for the ES, GS, LS and RX.

If you go to Consumer Reports, who has the largest, best instrumented test facility in North America for new and used cars and best tracking system for in-service problems, the Mercedes product line is only of Average Reliability, and that in good years. There is a lot of variance in the MB reliability too.

In recent years the E was rated 1997 98 - Below Average, 99 - 00 Average, 01 - Below Average.

Fortunately for the E fans, it has a the best, most recent reliability and quality of the entire MB line. The 2000 - S (1st year of the marquee model ) was rated poor. The M class trucks, like the BMW X5, are rated poor and on the 'dont buy list'.

There is much to like about a Benz. Like a BMW, Audi or Lexus in their respective classes, each has it's own cache and appeal. You may prefer the look and feel and layout of the dash, the seats, the tint of the moonroof, whatever. Some like the way individual cars feel, accelerate or handle.

But Mercedes doesn't lead in quality or reliability and hasn't for some time. It's not likely that they ever will again, either.

glamourlife · October 2002

I never said MB leads in reliability! I agree that the Lexus has been a reliability star for years. But again, reliability and durability are not the same thing. I am not blinded to German cars only. I have owned several makes and models, and through my close friends I have experience with just about every luxury car out there.

I like Lexus cars for the value they represent. I have repeatedly said that they offer tremendous value and reliability. 3 years ago when I was looking for a new family vehicle, I got the LX470. It was and is a great truck, but it is far from perfect.

The first week I had it it began to rattle from within the gear selector. Several visits to the dealer did not cure the sound either. It has been completely reliable and has never left me stranded, but I have learned to live with the vibrations. It is also underpowered.

And pcbrs, one article found from the web does not convince me of anything. I can find hundreds of articles on the new BMW's, MB's, to refute that article. Just look at the reviews on Edmunds.

carnaught · October 2002

....please show a link of one of your "hundreds of articles" on M.B. "refuting" pcbrs's article. Specifically, I'm refering to your premise of M.B.'s better materials as far as interiors are concerned as compared to Lexus. Again, I'm not asking for author's overall preference for M.B.'s over Lexus'(another subject) but specifically the post you did (#1687)regarding interiors.

carnaught · October 2002

....please show a link of one of your "hundreds of articles" on M.B.'s "refuting" pcbrs's article. Specifically, I'm not asking for an author's overall preference for M.B.'s over Lexus' (another subject), but in support of the post you did (#1687) blasting Lexus interiors. Talk is cheap.....

glamourlife · October 2002

Check out this article on the 2003 S-Class. It talks about true "Innovations" like Pre-Safe. The article asserts that the "...Even so, with the debut of the 2003 updates, the S-Class is quite likely to maintain its standing at the head of its class."

http://thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=5279&n=157,183&sid=183

While your at it, try this one...

http://thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=5213&n=157,183&sid=183

In regards to interior it says "...The displays are quite classy, though surprisingly simple in design, especially compared to the flashy lights and graphics Japanese luxury marques have adapted. But functionally, the E-Class instrumentation is a lot easier to read." The Japanese brands do get remarks about their interior finsih still being tighter than MB, but the article concludes with "...With the new E-Class, Mercedes has pulled out all the stops. It is difficult to understate just how much of an improvement has been made in an already strong product. The 2003 E-Class clearly shows that Mercedes can build a drivers car. In performance and handling terms, its still not quite a BMW, but the E-Class has plenty of other advantages that will help it maintain its edge in a tightly competitive luxury segment."

Check out this one on the new CLK...

http://thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=5186&n=157,183&sid=183

One of the notable quotes on interior design states, "Inside, its luxury all the way. Leather in generous helpings adorn the seats, the door interiors, and just about everything else you look at. Handsome without glitz or gloss, the soft surfaces are waiting to be touched. In fact the entire interior-designer decor proclaims: This is as good as it gets. "

Here is a quote on the Lexus ES300, "...One other thingfully kitted out as our tester was, the ES 300 becomes dang close to a $40,000 propositionnearly BMW 5-Series territory (the base price is $31,505). At that price, in this segment, you need something more enthusiast-oriented than a dressed-up Camry. The ES 300, Lexus biggest seller, has always been outsold by the sportier Acura 3.2 TL by nearly a 2-1 margin. And if I were a Lexus marketer, Id be losing sleep over the Infiniti G35."

And another on the flagship LS430 from Edmunds, "So nearly perfect is this vehicle that the few nits I have to pick seem silly, save one. For example, the plastic parking brake release exhibits too much gloss. The front passenger airbag isn't seamlessly integrated into the dash or hidden behind the lovely rosewood decorating the panel above the dual-tiered glovebox. Some climate and stereo functions are bundled with the navigation screen, ridiculous given the amount of space gone underutilized on the center stack. And the remote keyless entry fob for this premium car provides poorly marked buttons that are difficult to see in dim light.

The big surprise, however, was how much creaking, rattling and buzzing the cabin of our test vehicle exhibited. Idling at a light, I detected a barely discernable buzz from the rear headliner area. On a rough side street near our office, the interior emitted damped and low-frequency, but still evident, rattles and squeaks. A couple of sharper bumps resulted in creaking from the dash. Considering how well Lexus nailed the rest of the car, this apparent build-quality problem was truly surprising.

Derivative best describes the styling, which to my eye incorporates a combination of past and present Mercedes-Benz cues. The overall effect is pleasing, if unremarkable. I prefer the more forceful appearance of a BMW 7 Series, sleek look of a Mercedes-Benz S-Class, classic image of a Jaguar XJ8 or refined visage of an Audi A8. ...

© Edmunds.com, Inc. "

footie · October 2002

Here are the links are to what Edmunds says:

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2003/lexus/ls430/4drsedan43l8cyl5a/overview.html?id=lin0006

"What Edmunds.com Says

Provides equal (or better) refinement levels as German uber-sedans, only without the holier-than-thou attitude."

2001 LS430: http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/roadtests/roadtest/46353/article.html

And the 'first drive' of the 2001 LS 430

http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/roadtests/firstdrive/44015/article.html

It isn't perfect, just better.

pcbrs · October 2002

Yikes-

The examples you offer seem tenous to me, and require a biased interpretation of the reviews of MB products you offered. They are stating the interiors are luxurious and in some cases outstanding. However, you seem to be trying to use those praises to support your idea that "The LS seems all show, with no substance. Their wood seems like its Faux, and the leather, plastics, and controls are cheap shiny Toyota grade." Kind of sad.

I don't understand why you think the MB interior is so superb, considering its use of COMAND, "optional" single CD in dash, etc. Anyway, since you seem to respect EDMUNDS reviews, here's a link you should check out:

http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/roadtests/roadtest/46353/article.html

The article states:

"We had to settle for the regular old Mark Levinson/navigation package. The single-disc DVD-based navigation system is notable for its excellence in ease of operation, thanks to its touchscreen and expedited processing. An interesting feature is the voice activation system."

"Ah yes, the Mark Levinson stereo system. We practically had to wipe the slobber off the dash, so enthused was our stereo evaluator. He claimed that it's the best OEM sound he's ever had the pleasure to listen to, bar none."

"Other gadgetphile lures that you don't have to pay extra for include side mirrors that not only provide puddle lamps, but also can be set to fold in automatically when you park your Lexus. The mirrors themselves tilt down when you're backing up. The center air vent can be set to automatically undulate, and we felt as if we were in a tropical locale being fanned with a giant palm frond when trying this feature out. You get xenon headlamps as standard equipment, and the wipers are rain-sensing, not merely speed-sensitive, as on the 2002 Q45."

"The LS will provide the same refinement levels as the German uber-sedans, only without the holier-than-thou attitude. And if your ingrained Puritan is nibbling upon your conscience for your flagrant disregard of your upbringing, quell it by telling it that you're driving an ultra-low emissions vehicle."

-Jeff

"Lexus was most thoughtful about storage space in the LS 430. There's a dual glovebox, each of which are sizeable. Expanding door bins allow for easy access to your things. The center console is dual-tiered, but you'll still have access to the upper tier when you open the second deeper bin. There's a sunglasses holder overhead, and a convenient 5-minute voice recorder. A double sunshade prevents the sun from unduly causing a glare."

"The incredibly comfortable driver seat offers 14-way power adjustment with lumbar control and a power height-adjustor seatbelt, which is easy to insert into its slot thanks to the illuminated buckles. Beautiful Optitron gauges provide great gauge cluster visibility, and the premium-quality California walnut wood trim and delectable leather will mollify even the most discerning of tastes. The tilt/telescoping steering wheel and the seat move out of the way for easy ingress/egress."

pcbrs · October 2002

Hey- You beat me to it. Ha ha.

-Jeff

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