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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I am trying to figure out the point of your post but your rhetoric keeps on getting in the way.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    OAC,

    I am trying to figure out the point of your post but your rhetoric keeps on getting in the way.

    Although your rhetoric would certainly not be out of place in Lexus marketing brochures. Since you've enlightened me with the Lexus version of promo talk I shall do likewise and enlighten you with the BMW version right from the mouth of the BMW VP of Marketing himself:

    Jack Pitney: Historically, if you look back at how different German brands market themselves, they have always tended to market the engine excellence. With the [hybrid] engine, when we bring a different concept to the market, it has to be uniquely BMW's interpretation of whatever product it is. [For instance, we call] our X5 a 'sports activity vehicle' versus an SUV . . . when we launched it, it was all about the drive. SUVs before that had been very practical but didn't drive so well on an existing truck platform. We positioned ours as a perfect driving machine and we've had tremendous success with it. So when we bring a hybrid power train to the market, it has to be the ultimate type of power train and has to remain true to what we do.

    I must regretfully say that BMW rhetoric is almost as bad as Lexus rhetoric.

    link title
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2006133

    Interesting report. Lexus swept the premium segments with the exception of compact sports car (they dont have one), and full size lux SUV, which they lost to Cadillac. The Z4 and SLK were nominated, but lost to the S2000.

    Cadillac, Jaguar and BMW all did very well. BMW actually slightly edged out Infiniti, which is surprising, as this VDS doesn't include the awful QX56.

    Mercedes was below average, but well above Audi, and Porsche. Pretty large gap between Porsche's IQS and VDS data. As usual, Land Rover is embarrasingly bad.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Ha... I figured those BMW-rose glasses are getting thicker these days, eh ?

    More rhetoric for you... link title

    Lexus winning 12-in-a-row car dependability honors.... in a survey of 47,000+ owners. Geez.. what a lame concept ! It surely doesn't drive as well as a BMW, eh ? How dependability doesn't factor into a car ownership beats me.. except for the Germancarfans who seem to live in their cars ;)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Lexusguy,

    the most interesting quote about the JD Power findings is the following:

    The gap in long-term quality between luxury and non-luxury brands has been cut in half during the past four years, according to the J.D. Power and Associates 2006 Vehicle Dependability StudySM (VDS) released today.

    In other words if long term quality is a top priority, then buying a luxury vehicle makes less sense than four years ago.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Please refer to my last link above. If long-term quality is your top priority then why waste your money on luxury :confuse:
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    12-in-a row car dependability honors."

    After all this time you still don't get it.

    We at Club Europe couldn't give a hoot at reliability studies or awards for such.

    Wake us up when any Lexus wins an award for driving excitement. Should be a long sleep.

    Geesh!

    Meanwhile, BMW, the Company of Ideas, has won World Car Of The Year, the highest of international honors.

    Even Suburu won an international award for best engine.

    Where was Lexus? They don't even have an international presence. Strictly a minor league sham perpetrated by Toyota on those gullible enough not to recognize a re-badged Toyota when they see one.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Please refer to my last link above. If long-term quality is your top priority then why waste your money on luxury..

    Huh ? OK... Let's put your rhetorical question another way:

    If owning a car is all you care about, why did you put all that cash into a BMW ? Won't just about any car fit the bill ??? Oh... I see, you do care about something in the car you choose to own, eh ? C'mon, make these rhetorical questions more challenging....
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    We at Club Europe couldn't give a hoot at reliability studies or awards for such.

    Wake us up when any Lexus wins an award for driving excitement. Should be a long sleep.


    Yes, snooze alright... I take it you do sleep in your Bimmer as well since you love its driving so much... I think its you who just don't get it with a one-track mindset. Is that even healthy ?

    Part of the problem is you'd trumpet an award for something a Euro car wins but trash any Lexus wins like it doesn't matter in the scheme of car ownership. Maybe you didn't get the memo: not everyone cares about or wants a BMW. And in particular to HELM (keeping it on topic), even fewer people cares about a 7-series, compared to an S or an LS... Even YOU don't care for a 7-series, or do you ? Without the 3-series, where would BMW be today ? Lexus/Toyota has so many winners its incredible for a car company.

    Why don't YOU wake us up when BMW gets within a 10-mile shouting distance of the size, clout and world domination as Toyota/Lexus ? That'd be like -- NEVER --
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    If the gap was cut in half between the performance/handling of luxury and non-luxury cars then I would definitely hesitate in buying a luxury marque.

    If Subaru WRX sti had more interior space and did not have such an adolescent look and is sold at a lower price in Canada (CDN MSRP is equivalent to 47k US$) then yes I would consider a Subaru.

    And the above is no rhetoric.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Maybe you didn't get the memo: not everyone cares about or wants a BMW.

    OAC,

    are you not the same fellow who recently considered buying a BMW550i over a Lexus LS?

    Why dont you come out of the closet and confess that you are just another BMW fan like Howard . The only difference between you and Howard is your reluctance in confessing that BMWs are more fun to drive.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    If Subaru WRX sti had more interior space and did not have such an adolescent look and is sold at a lower price in Canada (CDN MSRP is equivalent to 47k US$) then yes I would consider a Subaru.

    Well, there's always the Legacy Spec.B, which looks more grown up and has more space. It doesn't have the STi's power, but a chip could probably fix that. Another option is the Mazdaspeed6, which also has a powerful turbocharged 4, MT, and AWD.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    I'd consider buying a 550i of course. I love cars of all sorts that's why I have 3 different kinds of cars. What I am NOT is a one-track minded person, only concerned with ONE sole issue - a car's performance. If that 550i meets my other needs - quality, build, features, reliability and luxury appointments, BMW would get my money in a hurry. Does the 550i meet all of these ? The jury is still out... Until then, my money considers an LS460, a car brand that has yet to disappoint me over my many years of ownership.

    And btw, I agree with you that BMW is lots more fun to drive than a Lexs, but it doesn't offer me ALL I want in a car.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    No thanks!

    I test drove both cars (Legacy GT not Spec B) and believe me they are not at all as exciting to drive as the luxury cars I test drove or own right now.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    At one time Toyota appealed to sport-minded drivers as well as their conservative base.
    They were producing fine cars with the Supra and the neat, little Celica.
    My heart raced when I first got behind the wheel of a Supra, so many years ago.

    Why they abandoned this segment, I do not know.
    I hear Toyota may be coming out with a new Supra sometime soon.

    Why Lexus can't produce the 2007 LS with a serious sport package as Toyota does with the Camry SE is beyond me.

    Perhaps the re-emergence of the Supra indicates a serious change of direction which hopefully, will filter up to Lexus.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Whoa! Oac! Were you seriously considering getting a 550i?

    It really would be nice to have both the LS and 550i, wouldn't it?

    One, a great cruiser, the other for those exciting weekend jaunts.

    Then you would become the HELM board's true moderate! :)
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    At least Toyota offered variation of the same theme to a diverse group of buyers. BMW solely appeals to the so-called "performance-minded" folks. Nothing wrong with that, but don't you see how such a "limited" approach is fraught with risks? If and when Toyota brings back a Supra, it won't radically change Toyota's image in the performance world. They'd need serious contention in F1, Le Mans, and other racing events to really put their name on the map, and feed off that. A new Supra is just a new souped-up sports car. Not gonna take over the world, tho' it would be nice if it does :) I am hoping Toyota stays to its strength and continue to churn out quality products.

    Let me say it here: NOTHING beats quality !!! Nothing.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    I wish I could afford BOTH... Yes, I was considering a 550i IF the new LS460 is priced outrageously.

    I got yet another call today from my Lexus dealer. The SWB LS460 loaded is priced at $72K. But he offered me an olive branch... if I want, I could get an '06 LS430 discounted from $64K to $55K + TTL. I said thanks... but no thanks...
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I don't know about that. I will surely test drive a new Supra because of the fond memories I have of the original Supra.
    Shouldn't seriously affect Toyota's strength or indicate a 180 degree change in direction.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I'm sending you a Club Europe application form.
    It will be in a plain white envelope with no return address.
    Nobody at Lexus has to know! ;)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Let me say it here: NOTHING beats quality !!! Nothing

    Based on my own statistical analysis I have concluded with 99.9 % accuracy that there is definitely a inverse relationship between quality and driving excitement

    Here is my proof:

    Latest JD Power Dependability Results Rankings

    1) Lexus
    2) Mercury
    3) Buick
    4) Cadillac
    5) Toyota

    Is it a mere 0.1% coincidence that the manufacturers above do not manufacture exciting cars? I dont think so! In fact a high JD Power ranking is a warning and not a temptation to buy.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Very funny indeed ! I like that one, Dewey....
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    The 550i is devestating!

    In this day and age, quality issues with BMWs are more about small annoyances than major engine or electrical failures.

    I have my 545i for 13 months now with not one complaint.
    The car has been flawless. You just bring it in every 15,000 miles for its synthetic oil-which is covered under the 4 year warranty.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    I'm sending you a Club Europe application form.

    Nothing wrong with that. I'd gladly accept... I drive my friends 330i every other weekend. The car is a lotta fun. And he has even chirped the heck out of the engine, but you'd never know since from the outside, everything is all stock.

    I have said it before, and I'll say it again, after my kids leave the nest, I'd consider getting rid of something to get a vert or 2-door sports car, and a 330/335 is certainly a strong contender. But for now, I enjoy my Lexus and look forward to the newer and better models to come. I'm only 43 now, I can imagine that in 20 yrs I'd see myself driving real fast, sporty performance-inclined cars. Why ? I'd like to re-live my lead-footed youth, which I live by till today, and imagine I'd continue to as long as I can move my body and get inside a car without a nurse... :)
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    oak,

    For what it's worth, my dealer told me today that they are of the opinion that a more realistic pricing has the SWB LS460 starting in the mid 60s K. They wholeheartedly agree that the basic LS 460 starting in the 70s K would be totally out of line.

    By the way, do you have a link to that MT article about the new LS?
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Where I live, I am surrounded by retirees who are mostly driving minivans.
    Something to do with their lack of flexibility I guess. Easy to get in and out.
    Time to hang up the keys, the day I start looking at minivans.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    So, the JDP study shows Mercedes Benz, the often accused repair shop lizard, as just a bit below average, which is certainly no nightmare as it is often portrayed.

    And . . . it is rated better then Porsche and even Hyundai, which have been getting lots of quality kudos lately.

    Even more interesting is that the average itself has improved to the point that an average vehicle is pretty darned good.

    Great news for Lexus, of course, but important news for Mercedes, IMO.

    Always nice to see Jaguar doing well.

    TagMan
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    Wasn`t that test for three year old cars?? OAC, when I was your age I also went for Lexus as I think from a financial point of view they deliver...I am presently enjoying an Audi, but with the age has come caution, so don`t wait too long Tony
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    I read the bottom portion of the test and have come away mystified:

    Since when has the Buick Regal, Cadillac Deville(not DTS), and Acura CL come back into production?

    These tests are almost always so useless. You have a paltry brand like Mercury(Ford) trailing the reliable top-dog Lexus, 3 slots ahead of the perfect Toyota? You can't tell me that you're still believing this crap...

    Ah, but there is one saving grace. Maybe it's all of the recall that've plagued TOYota as of late.
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    Nightmare starts after warranty expires, which you failed to admit.

    Steve
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Since when has the Buick Regal, Cadillac Deville(not DTS), and Acura CL come back into production?

    The VDS is probably more important to used shoppers than new car buyers. If you lease for two years, who cares what the VDS results are? If, on the other hand, you're in the market for a just off lease 3 year old car, as a lot of people are, its relevant information. BMW's strong showing probably has something to do with the '03 3 and 5 series, which were both near the end of the line and much more reliable than the earlier MYs.
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    The VDS is probably more important to used shoppers than new car buyers

    Its the other way around. Its useful for new car buyers because they can figure out how many times they will visit the dealership during next 3-4 years.

    Its useless for used car buyers because they want to know VDS of expired warranty cars (5-8 yrs or more) rather than 3 year olds.

    Steve
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    "Of course sales are going to cool down once everyone who has to have one gets one, just like the Lexus' equally drooping GS. "

    Actually, it's sales have tanked big time in the US. It's not the "gotta have it factor" which meant everyone bought one last year and nobody will buy one this year. I just think the 4-door coupe concept isn't flying like Benz thought it would. It hasn't lived up to expectations like the GS, which Lexus continuously screws up! The GS is a flop because of a few factors, it is underpowered, it is not as roomy as it's main competitors.

    The Porsche 4-door coupe concept will probably fly because Porsche is a coupe builder and porsche is a smaller scale producer.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Last year there was no exciting new '07 S-Class to purchase, and the CLS represented an exciting and new alternative.
    Now the S-Class itself is new and exciting and the CLS loses back some of its sales to the S as a result. The S-Class is just that good, IMO.

    I do not believe that the defining difference between a 4-door coupe and a 4-door sedan is important enough for most buyers. They will choose based upon overall style, features, performance and price, mostly regardless of the use or lack of use of pillars or frames. The defining characteristic of the CLS is more about the body's curved lines and the rear treatment. Nice, but when that new S-Class sits right next to it on the showroom . . . hard to resist.

    Porsche, on the other hand, unlike Mercedes, would not have ANY other 4-door, and thus if you are going to buy a Porsche 4-door it is going to be what it is . . . the Panamera.

    TagMan
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    They don't even have an international presence. Strictly a minor league sham perpetrated by Toyota on those gullible enough not to recognize a re-badged Toyota when they see one.

    So is the US "Minor League" now? I guess being the #1 market in the World doesn't cut it anymore.

    As Toyota ads say, the best New Cars make the best used cars. So I guess Lexus makes the best of the best New cars, and the Best of the best Used cars?

    There is no sham! :mad:

    The only sham is people who resent Lexus' success, and try to tear 'em down, and sell them to others as inferior. It's hopelessly transparent, and a sure indication of a desperate and lost soul.

    DrFill
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    So is the US "Minor League" now? I guess being the #1 market in the World doesn't cut it anymore.

    Apparently Lexus' horrible crime is using a few parent company engines and platforms, and selling cars in the US market. Curiously unmentioned are Cadillac, Audi, Jaguar, Acura, and Infiniti, all of whom are guilty of exactly the same thing. BMW and Mercedes escape because they are the parent company. Not because they are "better" than anyone else.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Definitely better than the ML.

    Oh most definitely. Mercedes still opts to cheap out the Amerian produced interiors for some reason. True they're better than the first generation M, but the GL/R/ML could still be better. They simply don't have the same design and feel of the German built Mercedes models. That American supplier chain is showing.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I am trying to figure out the point of your post but your rhetoric keeps on getting in the way.

    Bascially. I guess he felt left out because no one was talking about Lexus.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Interesting report. Lexus swept the premium segments with the exception of compact sports car (they dont have one), and full size lux SUV, which they lost to Cadillac. The Z4 and SLK were nominated, but lost to the S2000.

    So does it at least *seem* like Mercedes is improving? I remember MB being much lower than that in previous years for the 3-year survey?

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    At least Toyota offered variation of the same theme to a diverse group of buyers. BMW solely appeals to the so-called "performance-minded" folks.

    Really? Offering all sedans and SUVS is giving people variation? Not one sports car or even sporty car in the bunch and this is called variation? Nonsense. Toyota has about the most non-diverse group of buyers of any brand today! That is why they have a stick-in-the-mud image with people who don't buy Toyotas. You've got to be joking if you think Toyota offers any kind of "variation". They're the dullest, most boring mainstream brand going. Nissan and Honda are much more "diverse" and offer more "variation". Ditto for Mercedes and BMW compared to Lexus. Toyota is a lot of things, but diverse isn't one of them.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Actually, it's sales have tanked big time in the US. It's not the "gotta have it factor" which meant everyone bought one last year and nobody will buy one this year. I just think the 4-door coupe concept isn't flying like Benz thought it would. It hasn't lived up to expectations like the GS, which Lexus continuously screws up! The GS is a flop because of a few factors, it is underpowered, it is not as roomy as it's main competitors.

    Then you don't understand the coupe or in the CLS' case, the fashion accessory market. Secondly most cars experience some type of sales drop in their second model years nowadays it seems. There is absolutely nothing to indicate that the CLS hasn't done everything that Mercedes wanted it to do and it has created a new segment that others are quickly trying to enter. You don't get any bigger endorsement than that! Take a look at the CLS compared to the E-Class and you'll see that the market for such a car compromised in the name of style is limited and not going to stay current like the sedan it is based on. Why are you so stuck on the CLS' sales here in the U.S? MB is looking at the big picture, and since the CLS rolls down the same assembly line as the E I hardly think anyone in Germany is worried about its sales slowing down. The goal last year here in the U.S. was 8K, they sold 13K.

    The CLS is a fashion accessory and that market booms and falls just that fast. The CLS will likely get something of a boost this year as the CLS550 and CLS63 AMG take over this month, but one look at the car and you'd know that such a car isn't going to be a big volume seller forever.

    Now the GS' that is mainstream car that has a problem I agree.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    So, the JDP study shows Mercedes Benz, the often accused repair shop lizard, as just a bit below average, which is certainly no nightmare as it is often portrayed.

    And . . . it is rated better then Porsche and even Hyundai, which have been getting lots of quality kudos lately.


    And this for 2003, the year of the awful E-Class and SL which were brand new that year. Go figure.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    And this for 2003, the year of the awful E-Class and SL which were brand new that year. Go figure.

    Stranger still is that Porsche's very poor showing came from Boxsters and 911s, which are supposed to be very reliable. The Cayenne won't be included until next year's VDS.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    That is why I just can't get too excited about or understand people that worship these surveys and take them as the absolute and ultimate truth about reliability.

    M
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    I read that BMW is working on a turbo 8 cyl. that might be for the next 7 series. Does anyone think that they will also offer all wheel drive? It would seem to make sense since they now have X drive versions for each of their series: 3, 5, suv of course and now will offer the coupe in X drive. If they don't offer it in the 7, I think it's a big mistake especially if they want to combat the new S Class. By the way, I think that Lexus misses the boat on this as well with the LS. Why not offer all wheel drive on the new LS?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    drfill,

    one Ting and only one Ting.

    you have mixed me up with another poster! You are accusing me of a statement that I have not written.

    I do have the right to remain silent until I see my lawyer. :P
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    You've got to be joking if you think Toyota offers any kind of "variation". They're the dullest, most boring mainstream brand going. Nissan and Honda are much more "diverse" and offer more "variation". Ditto for Mercedes and BMW compared to Lexus. Toyota is a lot of things, but diverse isn't one of them.

    Have to correct you there.

    Even though Toyota has forgotten about the sports car market, they still make Best-selling Tacoma, have legendary truck heritage with Land Cruiser/FJ Cruiser, INNOVATIVE (Yes, I said INNOVATIVE) SUVs like the RX, they make great cars, great hybrids, and they've sold a luxury car or two through some scrub off-shoot......I forget the name of it right now. But it's doing ok. Certainly nothing to shout about. :blush:

    I'm sorry making viceless cars/trucks/SUVs that do their owners bidding expertly, but doesn't bring you to a cold sweat, is such an offense. :cry:

    BTW, Toyota made the Supra in 1993, and showed that they can make the best sports car in the world (yes, internationally), if they so choose to. The pot wasn't big enough at the end of the rainbow, so now we sit and mourn the loss.

    Don't hate us 'cause we're beautiful! :blush:

    DrFill
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    But you can tell by my posts that I've gone senile!

    Yesterday I rebooted my TV set.....kinda. :confuse:

    DrFill
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    BMW: World Car of The Year

    Audi: South African Car of The Year

    Subaru: International Engine of The Year

    Lexus: Uhhhh....who???

    Well, that pretty much covers it.
    Take your language dictionaries to any place on this planet and ask the native folk, which is the best car in the world and more often than not, assuming they understand your question (speak slowly), the answer will come back "BMW" more often than not.

    Very satisfying!
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Thanks Doc, now I can break my vow of silence :)
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