High End Luxury Cars

topspin628 · August 2006

I didn't mean to imply that the Audi isn't a fine automobile, just that it didn't "seem to me" to be as solid as the MB. This could just be my perception, but nothing came close to the vault like feel of the S Class. As for the length issue, I didn't realize that the new S Class was longer than the A8 L. I guess for me, I didn't see the major upgrade from the A6 to the A8 that I saw from the E to the S in MB other than the size. It's great that you love your car and I understand why. I was also just a bit nervous about electrical issues with the first year model when it came out as well.

blkhemi · August 2006

Agreed. Very few cars have that super-vault feel of the S. This has been a signature for the S for many years, especially with the start of the '92 model, with it's larger than life size and near tank-like solid feel.

With Audi, the way they put so much quality and precision in the A6 does in fact leave little to want in the A8. But the A8 does offer plenty of things that you can't get in the A6.

And I can understand why you said you feel like a limo driver. The A8L's cabin is HUGE! The rear seat is the biggest in the segment and it is so far away from the driver that you do get that "chauffered" feel.

But what I've heard about the new LS460L, this will indeed be a limo, with a massive 214" of length. I'm anticipating this car just like everyone else. So if you could wait a few months, you'll probably have more cars to choose.

I saw where you mentioned that if MB brought the S450 over, then you'd consider it. I think that they may just do so when the LS drops this fall..

topspin628 · August 2006

It would be a great strat for MB to slot the S450 with all wheel drive option against the LS460. The price gap should narrow and that would give MB a very competitive car especially since Lexus doesn't offer all wheel drive option.
As for the "chauffeured feel", I like that when I'm in the back, I just didn't want to get the "chauffeuring feel"

I would love to hear a review of your A8 since it has garnered so much acclaim from the media. Are you usually with other passengers or alone? Does it now have bluetooth and satilite? I think when it first came out I was amazed that satellite radio was not an option. What car(S) did you have previously?

blkhemi · August 2006

I have a huge dillema. I had to part ways with my beloved W12 yesterday so that my daughter would have a car that better suits her needs for transportation with the new baby and all as her S4 Cab ain't gonna cut it.

On yesterday, I almost cut the check for the S600 that I've been rambling about for the last couple of days. It has the perfect interior/exterior choice that I was actually going to order. The owner of the MB dealer(an old Marine/FBI Academy buddy) is going to sell it to me at cost.

The problem is: Is the AMG versions that I am so passionate about actually worth the additional servicing requirements? And is the additional power of the S65 that much more important than the arguably best V12(behind Ferrari no doubt)on the marketplace?

As many of you know, I owned an '05 S65 AMG that, while delivering explosive acceleration and an upped fun factor, just did not seem to be that much better than a S600(W-220). So I feel that with this car delivering a stout 510hp v. the AMG-fortified model delivering 603hp actually seems like overkill.

As a G-Car fan, we're all about the excitement of driving. So I'm in a situation now that I've got to do something. The S600 offers the complete blend of performance and luxury, without the sacrifice of spoiling the fun with power overkill, as what I experienced in my S65. Unless you live in rural areas, there will be nowhere to enjoy that much power.

So back to my original question: WHAT TO DO????? Remember that my wife and I sold her CLS55 AMG on anticipation that our Audi S8 will be arriving in Oct, which is still on schedule to do so. So with another performance-laden car coming, it seems frivilous to buy the S65.

So should I buy now or wait to get my hands around an S63/65? Tag, hp, d-MAN, Merc, LG, reality, dewey(oops on vacation-welcome to the States), dh and anyone else with a respective and unbiased opinion, give me somethin'.......

blkhemi · August 2006

I absolutely adore the A8. The car has some unusual features that are only available in cars costing 2-3 times as much.

The interior quality, build, and layout is tops amongst it's competitors. The exterior is very elegant and classy.

In my almost a year of ownership, the car has delivered 15k absolutely trouble-free miles, and I've got the W12, the car CR says not to buy. BEWARE: On your eventual car purchase, do not read into what the mag says as they gave the Jag and MB's black dots all around, yet these cars continue to deliver some of the best quality in the class, especially the Jaguar, considering that it is right there with Lexus on many fronts.

I ordered my A8L W12 with every option under the sun. It does have bluetooth and Sat. radio. I ordered the full-leather dress up from roof to floor, the B&O sound system, park assistm, rear fridge, 20" wheels, dual pane glass(std.), solar fan in the sunroof(for cooling/heating while the car is parked), and the Audi Extended Protection plan up to 100k miles, something ANY luxury buyer should get on ANY luxo car as these cars hae enough electronics to keep Bill Gates up at night And the car's price range is very flexible, from $68k up to a wallet-crushing $155k.

All in all, I couldn't have bought a better purchase last year. I sold the S65 AMG last year and traded the 760iL on the W12. Neither of those cars offered the complete blend of luxury, comfort, and performance as the W12 did, altho the new W221-platformed Merc. may do it better than the Audi judging from my earlier drives. But the car is still hugely competitive, and if AWD is a must, there is no car on the road today(yet) that can come close to the A8, which has quattro standard, and this makes the A8 as sure-footed as a mountain goat..

hpowders · August 2006

I would get the S600 without hesitation-this is the absolute HELM summit.
(However as a value player, I would be more interested in the S550).

However, given your situation, I would have to wait and then compare models to avoid any potential disappointment.

The reviews have been very favorable on the S600.
0-60 mph in 4.2 seconds. Geesh!
Even so, expect more of a balance toward luxury than sport. It is after all, a HELM.
From the photos, the interior looks absolutely gorgeous, as one should expect.

The only thing negative I've read is one would need a long time to master all the sophisticated gadgetry.

Also, there is the styling issue. Can you live with this design?

tagman · August 2006

So should I buy now or wait to get my hands around an S63/65?

Pardon me if I missed something about the logistics of your decision, but can you wait long enough to do a direct comparison of the S600 and S65? (So that you eliminate all possible second guessing afterwards.)

TagMan

blkhemi · August 2006

The pictures for the interior of this car does not do it justice. And very rarely do I complement cars other than Audi's for outstanding interior craftsmanship, but this one definetely has it, particularly in the parchement hue, the interior of choice for me.

Yes the level of performance is not expected in this size of car, but is not quite as blistering as the S65, which may be a better thing when you factor in ride comfort.

Styling? While the wheel bulges did intitially did seem a bit over the top, but I have come to accept them as part of this beautiful machine. They're not as profound in person as the pictures would suggest. And the sleek design of the exterior of this car is a sort of evolution of the sleek but somewhat conservative styling of the W220, and this car, IMO, adds to the beautiful styling of that car, which was the trendsetter for that time.

blkhemi · August 2006

Waiting around for the S65 may be the only option now as I have to eliminate that doubt.

I know that the S600 is probably the best S-Class as it has everything standard and a honkin' V12 engine, but nothing in this category is as fast as the S65 AMG.

We'll just have to wait and see. Looks like I'll be driving the Vette Z06 around when dry, the JGC SRT-8 when wet/snowy until I make my decision.

hpowders · August 2006

Well if I'm going to come up with $130k, the interior had better knock my socks off!

What about the tail lights?

As Tagman suggests, waiting to compare both would probably be a good thing.

tagman · August 2006

Looks like I'll be driving the Vette Z06 around when dry, the JGC SRT-8 when wet/snowy until I make my decision.

Why is it I don't feel sorry for you?

BTW, I do think you are making the right decision to wait a little longer. It won't be long. Time flies when you're having fun . . . and with the cars you drive . . . fun will not be in short supply!

TagMan

grntd · August 2006

what was the mpg on the bimmer suv?

topspin628 · August 2006

I'm guessing that the MPG on the X5 3.0 was around 17-18 combined. Around 20 on highway. This is just an estimate as I haven't checked it our recently.

dhamilton · August 2006

Boy are you in a pickle LOL. What about an M5? It may be to much of a compromise on the luxury side but boy what a blast. To bad the 4 door Aston, and porsches aren't out yet. Bentley continental GT?

designman · August 2006

Something tells me Blkhemi wont be making his decision based on what we say, kind of like manager Joe Torre listening to fans in the stands. But Ill eat my hot dog, drink my beer and shout WE WANT THE S65!

designman · August 2006

Italian "soul" isn't really about handling. It's about the sound and fury of those V8s and V12s. The M5 doesn't have that.

I alluded to an owners perspective of both the Quattroporte and M5 in an earlier post. The E39 M5 is a car on my shortlist because it is on a performance-sedan pedestal in a price range I am willing to spend. Its hard to compare the two because of distinct differences, and I refrain from further comparison because I have not driven it as mentioned. I am content to let others draw their own conclusions.

As far as the sound of engines, particularly Italian engines, it is a part of the hallmark but it is also an aural badge. Those who are star struck by Ferraris and other Italian cars will always point to the sound first. Nice, but its not the total picture, nor is it the most important part of the picture, far from it. I now cite your original comment:

It's [Quattroporte] not a well rounded car, but it is a fantastic Italian drivers car.

Whenever anyone points to drivers cars the handling aspect cannot, I repeat CANNOT be ignored or written off cavalierly. Superior handling is a quality of all sports cars and sports sedans, Italian or otherwise, as is engine performance. Anyone who does not recognize this is not a true sports-car or sport-sedan enthusiast. Soul cannot rest on the laurels of sound. Sport aspires to nobler characteristics. Sound is merely the sizzle in the steak.

BTW, when considering ancillary characteristics, we might as well throw styling into the mix of what Italian soul is comprised of even if the designer of the Quattroporte, luminary Ken Okuyama, is Japanese and the creative director at Pininfarina. Nation of origin still influences, but I think this is becoming less so as the world shrinks.

Ah-h, Italian soul a brisk drive in the country, returning home to the aroma of Locatelli, garlic and tomato sauce wafting to the heavens. Pours glass of wine, dips slice of pane di casa into the sauce, steals a piece of braccioli from pot and gets cracked over the knuckles by a signora for doing so.

;-)

hpowders · August 2006

Around 17 mpg average with the 4.4 X5.
I get 21 mpg average with the 545.

"Average" for me is about 70% highway, 30% city.

I save around $500 a year in gas with the 545 over the X5.

Money well spent for 3 meals at Ruth Chris Steakhouse served with my favorite vintage vino.

tagman · August 2006

I save around $500 a year in gas with the 545 over the X5.

You probably spill more than that at your business meetings.

TagMan

hpowders · August 2006

Ouch! :sick:

Well, while I surely cannot debate your latest point, it was hard to pass up the opportunity to get a 4.4-liter, 325-hp, 32-valve, outstanding V-8 engine with 4 overhead camshafts that could deliver mpg in the 20's.
An astonishing feat of engineering.

nvbanker · August 2006

"The SWB LS460 loaded is priced at $72K."

YIKES!!! If it's not a blast to drive, an S-550 may indeed be in my future.....

lexusguy · August 2006

Whenever anyone points to drivers cars the handling aspect cannot, I repeat CANNOT be ignored or written off cavalierly. Superior handling is a quality of all sports cars and sports sedans, Italian or otherwise, as is engine performance. Anyone who does not recognize this is not a true sports=car or sport-sedan enthusiast. Soul cannot rest on the laurels of sound. Sport aspires to nobler characteristics. Sound is merely the sizzle in the steak.

Sure, handling is a key aspect of any "driver's car". However, I think there's a difference between a driver's car and a car that has "soul". There are very few German cars that are not driver's cars. Germany is not the country you think of when you think "cars with soul", however. German cars are much more machine than animal.

blkhemi · August 2006

I have tested the M5, and you're right, WHAT A BLAST!! Very few cars offer that type of driving with 4-doors, EXCEPT: Audi RS 6. But we'll save that for another discussion. But the M5 does offer the best performance on our shores currently(something the E63 is sure to try and break), and shockingly, it isn't that hard to drive, save for trying to squeeze the 500hp out of the V10. It shouldn't be that hard.

I did not consider it because I'll need more room than what the M5 offers, altho the 5-Series is a relatively spacious car given what the tight exterior lines reveal.

And the Continental GT, once again I need the space and the next 2-door I buy will be the Audi R10.

Now the Continental Flying Spur. This car was high on my list, before I got serious about the S-Class. I was really all over it, until I actually saw one in person. Don't get me wrong, the exterior of the car is remarkably dashing and the interior is right there with the best. But the body is shaped odd to me. The high-roof/long-body, while a longtime Bentley styling cue, struck me as very odd in this age of swooping and dramatic body work, IMO. And this car is REALLY heavy, but it does have the superlative W12 to back it up. And to boot, the FS is roughly $40k more than the S600, BEFORE OPTIONS. And the S600 doesn't have any major options, except for those that are customer-related.

blkhemi · August 2006

ME, to drive a lowly Corvette and, of all things, a Jeep, around? How repulsive is that!!!

:shades: :P

dhamilton · August 2006

Designman is right, and brings a true drivers perspective. A car must handle well, the sound is not all inclusive. That hits home with me as I am always the boy who wanted to race but settled for music lessons and basketball/ soccer for my athletic outlets. These cars represent the divided priorities in all of us, wanting to rip around the track but needing to have a back seat to haul diapers and formula home. Someday when my bank account allows [errr my wifes, MD.] I will be able to have a dedicated club day track car, as well as a competent daily driver. Until then, I live cerebrally through blkhemi and and the good Tagman with his recent Lotus purchase.

tagman · August 2006

delightful post.

Gee, that's strange . . . Somehow I just feel like taking the family out to a nice Italian restaurant tonight.

TagMan

blckislandguy · August 2006

At this level, I think it is all about psychic satisfaction. The Bentley I think will give you more of it and longer (at least a couple of years worth). This longer retention period might erase the initial price difference.

Face it, a new S Class is now quite common in the Northeast. They've become almost steriotypical among certain tribes. My local junk yard owner (no joke!) even drives one. Not so with a Bentley FS.

reality2 · August 2006

Since you are getting the awesome Audi S8, another high perfomance car might be overkill. Since you are accustomed to the Audi A8L W12, another similar type of HELM like the Audi A8 is probably the best bet for you. I think the S600 with the V12 is the way to go since you had to part with your W12 (that must have been a very tough day!). The S600 and the A8L W12 are the best two HELMS in their class and have the same aura about them. But more importantly, the S600 will represent a nice alternative in terms of driving to your new S8. One very sports-like and one very luxury-like. Yet, both with extreme luxury and great performance. I am purposely staying away from details like engine, etc. I think this is more about appeal and contrast for you. Plus you stated that for this kind of money, the interior (not just the car) better be special. So, I think in this regard the S-Class (S600 that is) and the A8/S8 are the benchmarks. Either way you have a nice choice to make.
As you know, I have the A8L W12 as well and just ordered my new 2007 Audi S6 (due in November like your S8), so I like the contrast of high performance and high luxury. Since you are choosing between the S65 and S600, and like I said, I would go with the S600 to have a nice contrast in terms of of driving experience. Although, if your wife is going to drive the S8 all the time...hmm.. maybe the MB S65 is just what is needed... Man, this is a difficult choice. I'll get back to you...

merc1 · August 2006

Tag, Merc, hp, dewey, reality, even LG, what do you fellas think of the QP, particularly the GT? I respect your views on cars more so than most on here as they're unbiased, unlike some the "perfecto's".

Simply put the most chrasmatic car in the segment. I haven't read any reviews complaining about the Duo Select in the new Sport GT version so maybe they've gotten that under control now. Of course I personally love the look, inside and out and like you said it has a Ferrari engine. For a person that has other cars for daily drivers I'd say go for the Maser. This is from a Mercedes-Benz devotee no less! The S600 is a totally different car as you know, no comparison between the two at what each of them are designed to excel at.

Just so I'll understand you're looking at replacing the A8L W12 with either the S600 or the Q Sport GT or is there some other scenario in play?

EDIT: After reading the rest of your posts I see you gave up the A8L W12, so you're looking for the best 2 of the 3 cars you've mentioned: Maser Q Sport GT, S600, S8? Well since I don't see you doing without an Audi and because you're getting the sportiest version of the A8, the S8 I'd say the ideal balance in your garage would be the S8 and the S600. The S600 can't be topped for power and luxury and the S8 from all that I've read so far is about as close to something like the Quattroporte you can get in this segment. Correction, the S600 can be topped by the S65 which is a ridiculously powerful/luxurious car, but remmeber it requires another 50K. I mean you aren't likely to encounter any sedans that will outrun you in your S600 anyway. Another scenario cuts the S8 out and goes for the S600 and the Quattroporte Sport GT, but you have to ask yoursel do you want total opposites in your garage? The S8 and Maser are more similar than the S600 is to either of them IMO.

M

merc1 · August 2006

I agree on the interiors. The German cars are, well German. The attention to the smallest details in the A8 and the new S is of course first rate. Every last piece has been calculated to absolute perfection. That, I think, is what German luxury is all about.

The inside of the QP is also incredibly luxurious, but in an Italian style. It's in the look, the feel, rather than ultimate build quality. The QP reminds me of the famous Italian speaker company, Sonus Faber. They use lute shaped cabinets, with hand matched wood panels, leather baffles, and silk wire grilles. To Sonus Faber, the look and feel is just as important as the sound quality.

The QP is not an engineering tour de force like the new S class, and it feels out of its element on bumpy city streets. What the QP does have though is soul inside and out, that you can't get from Jaguar, Mercedes, Audi, or BMW, and certainly not Lexus. It's not a well rounded car, but it is a fantastic Italian drivers car.

You know LG you're alright with me! Excellent take on the Quattroporte Sport GT. I was really shocked to see EVO pick the CLS55 over the Quattroporte Sport GT recently. The E63 beating the M5 in several German mags, what in the world?

M

merc1 · August 2006

Very well balanced and more importantly truthful post! Thanks for proving that price does matter for some buyers in this segment. Once again thanks for a great level-headed post.

M

merc1 · August 2006

All this talk about different cars from different countries has me thinking about how each nation goes about building what they think is the ideal luxury/performance machine.

The Italians go for three things IMO, looks, handling, and sound. I see LG and Designman have touched on this. Proof of this is the recent comparo at C&D between the 911 Turbo, F430 and Z06. The Z06 beats them both in nearly all the measurements of performance, yet it came in last and slowest of the 3, the Ferrari came in first. That is simply called charisma. Nothing sounds, looks or goes like an Italian car, even when they aren't the fastest in instrumented testing, they apparently feel and more importantly sound like they are! Nothing looks or sounds like a Lamborghini or Ferrari to their owners even when they're being passed on the highway by a mere "Chevy". I won't even bring up the huge cottage industry the Italians have going on with sports cars like the Zonda. This lineage and heritage is what makes a car like Quattroporte Sport GT so irresistible to those who drive/own them. Just take a look in the Quattroporte thread and you'll see what I mean. There is an immediate sense of thrill and adventure and come what may attitude with the car as long as they get to enjoy it. Only old-time British car owners from the dark periods truly understand this disposition. Many German car owners have bailed on this point.

Germans go for cold efficiency and technical brilliance and superior/detailed construction. This makes them juggernaughts on the road, but next to Italian cars they come off "soulless" by many accounts. The 911 Turbo, a car with its engine in the rear and a shape that could only be pulled off by years of conditioning rich folks to accept it, is for all intent and purposes is a something a German rocket scientist would come up with. Cold, brutal, efficient performance during which form must follow function.

The British are similar to Italians in regards to going for how a car looks, sounds, and smells. Jaguar, Bentley, Rolls-Royce and Aston-Martin all share these elements. The difference here is that while an Audi A8 or S600 may be better "put together", their leather and especially wood work isn't lovingly wrought as say a Bentley or Aston-Martin. The British are somewhat the opposite of the Germans in another regard also, they'll stick wood and leather anywhere they please, function be damned. This creates charming if sometimes ergonomically flawed interiors that stun passengers, but at the same time would infuriate a driver coming from say a Japanese car to a Bentley or Aston-Martin. The British are pretty skilled with a V12s too.

One area where the British and Italians soundly whop the Germans is in the area of customization. For example, take a look at the Bentley or Maserati websites. The level of details that can be specified is mind boggling. I mean you can choose the color of the seatbelts for goodness sake! German, Japanese and American car company bean counters would drop dead at such a suggestion.

The Japanese are similar to the Germans in the way that they typically, but not always put function before form. Their problem has been that the form end of that hasnt come out to well. They also bring the whole reliability, ease of use game to the table, which has proven to be quite successful for Lexus in particular. The Japanese still miss out on a lot of the finer points when it comes to what makes European cars in general so desirable, but theyre attempting to make up for that with a more trouble free ownership experience. This works, but it has limits.

M

lexusguy · August 2006

I was really shocked to see EVO pick the CLS55 over the Quattroporte Sport GT recently. The E63 beating the M5 in several German mags, what in the world?

I can see why a mag might choose the CLS55. It's got good looks and great performance, but it can turn into a normal everyday car, which the QP can't really do. It's always in sport mode, which some may not want in a four door sedan.

I'm not really a big fan of the new M5. I think it's pointlessly over computerized and complicated, for example offering a choice between 400hp, 500hp, and 500 "Sport" hp. Why is that necessary?

merc1 · August 2006

I'm not really a big fan of the new M5. I think it's pointlessly over computerized and complicated, for example offering a choice between 400hp, 500hp, and 500 "Sport" hp. Why is that necessary?

I agree with this for the most part, but I can see the point of the having different power modes. The M5 is trying to be more versatile I guess. Around town 400hp is all you need, but at the track you want the instant gear changes and blade-sharp throttle response hence the 500 Sport mode. I think BMW knows they sorta over did it with the M5 because a much easier to use good ole fashioned manual is on the way!

The comparo I'm waiting to see in a U.S. magazine is the Audi S6, E63, M5 and Quattroporte Sport GT. Maybe MT or Road and Track will do this, C&D will find some excuse not to put these 4 together I bet.

M

lexusguy · August 2006

The British are pretty skilled with a V12s too.

Skilled, yes, but the Germans and Italians are masters of the V-12. The English can't match BMW's McLaren F1 engine, or the Zonda's AMG engine, or any Ferrari V-12.

merc1 · August 2006

The English can't match BMW's McLaren F1 engine, or the Zonda's AMG engine, or any Ferrari V-12.

Oh I agree. The British V12s aren't really "British" anymore anyway.

M

lexusguy · August 2006

Around town 400hp is all you need, but at the track you want the instant gear changes and blade-sharp throttle response hence the 500 Sport mode. I think BMW knows they sorta over did it with the M5 because a much easier to use good ole fashioned manual is on the way!

I think Ferrari's system is much better, with a single switch that offers Sport, Race, and all driving aids off mode. Suppose an E63 wants to drag race, and you're in 400hp around town mode. You have to tell the Benz driver "hang on, I've got to set up my car for this. Give me a few minutes".

merc1 · August 2006

Yeah I've heard that one before on MBWorld. The E55/E63 guys love to tell how they're half-way down the road before the M5 guy figures out how to get his car going.

Speaking of the M5.

M

dhamilton · August 2006

is a link on the LS460 board to a German review of the new LS. It seems to say [it's translated in english mostly, but at times hard to understand] that the new Lexus is on par with the Benz in quality and design but still lagging behind them and Audi/BMW in driving dynamics.
It's kind of funny because they're sniping at each other over there, LOL.

tagman · August 2006

Yeah, I saw the link and saw the favorable remark about the better German driving dynamics. Of course, it is amazing that this comparison is even possible already, and also that this was done by Autobild.de. Considering that, I'd say that the LS got favorable remarks, and that once the North American reviews come in, there will likely be even more favorable remarks.

BTW, I attempted some posting over there, but also noticed the "tension", as you have noted.

I wonder when the major North American rags will make their first comparisons. You can bet that every positive word out of anybody regarding the LS will be bigger than life. It is amazing to me that the S-Class, well regarded and quoted as "the new benchmark" gets minimum reaction from the Lexus camp. Go figure.

TagMan

merc1 · August 2006

I wonder when the major North American rags will make their first comparisons.

I'd say in either their November or December issues. I've seen it before where Lexus "asks" for these comparos whenever a new LS is introduced. Car and Driver of course will be first. The LS460L, S550, 750Li, A8L, and XJ8L will be the contestants. The Phaeton won't be asked back due to its pending death in our market and the Quattroporte is a different breed of car.

M

tagman · August 2006

The LS460L, S550, 750Li, A8L, and XJ8L will be the contestants.

When you think about it, the outcome is fairly predictable.

TagMan

merc1 · August 2006

When you think about it, the outcome is fairly predictable.

IMO, either the S550 or LS460L depending on how the price factor plays out.

M

tagman · August 2006

I'll even take it one more step . . .

IMO, the S550 as the preferred vehicle that is still top dog, and the LS460L as a terrific alternative nipping at the heels of the S550, and a better value.

TagMan

lexusguy · August 2006

IMO, either the S550 or LS460L depending on how the price factor plays out.

Yeah, it will really depend on how much weight C&D decides to put on the Lexus' price advantage. I can see it going either way. The XJ has already managed to beat the A8 and 7 in their last comparison, so it will probably be 3rd, with the 750 in 4th, and the A8 bringing up the rear.

merc1 · August 2006

Yep and we know how fickle they can be on price!

M

hpowders · August 2006

The more things change, the more they stay the same:

From Grant Yoxon after testing the 2007 LS460:

"The big Lexus does not excel on twisty back roads. It is best suited to highway cruising.
Tossing the big sedan around on tight curves too soon after lunch will have you wondering if you might toss something else.
It is unlikely LS460 buyers will be too concerned, as those interested in the sporting aspects of driving will have something more suitable in the garage."

But why, Lexus? After all this time you had to improve the car's driving dynamics, you apparently failed. Again!

The Lexus folk are anxiously waiting for the reviews of the new LS from the autorags.
Can anybody see C&D or R&T eagerly waiting to get their hands on such a non-driver's car as the LS460 apparently is?
NOT!

Meanwhile, the LS460 is batting a big fat oh for one!

merc1 · August 2006

I read that review too. I guess the Premium Grand Touring Package: adds sport tuned front and rear air suspension, 19-inch wheels and tires, larger front and rear disc brakes and electric variable ratio power steering...is needed.

M

hpowders · August 2006

The reviewer hints that the car would make a fine chauffeur's vehicle. How emasculating is that?

The Japanese Buick apparently lives on after a little cosmetic surgery.

merc1 · August 2006

Well in all fairness it appears that the press introduction didn't include any LS460s with the sportier suspension setup. There is another review, just posted on the British site Autocar. See article. A few quotes:

At its core, the new 375bhp, 4.6-litre V8 provides excellent performance (0-62mph in 5.7sec) but needs to be worked hard to deliver it. That strongly suggests that it actually needs its eight gears rather the transmission being a thinly veiled two-finger salute to Mercedes-Benz with its paltry seven-speed gearbox.

I asked one of the Lexus fans long time ago what the advantage was to having a V8 in a luxury car that needs to be revved (to a sports car like RPM) in order to get the torque/power to move the car, but never got an answer. Simply put a larger engine that makes better low-end torque doesn't need to work as hard. To Lexus' credit though I'm sure there isn't an ounce of harshness, but the reviewer hints that 8 gears are needed because of the high-rev nature of the V8.

Their verdict:

Should I buy one?
However impressive the LS460 is on paper, in real life its a hard car to love, even though you cannot help but admire it. Technological overload is all very well but not when its achieved at the expense of that sense of occasion so critical to all true luxury cars.

For all its undoubted abilities, it still feels like the worlds most grown-up Toyota. Its cabin functions effectively, but it is not the home from home customers increasingly expect from cars in this class and enjoy every time they step behind the wheel of most European rivals in general, and the Audi A8 in particular.

Technocrats will doubtless love it, but for the rest of us, the LS460 suffers from the same fundamental problem as both its predecessors: objectively it does everything you could ask of it, subjectively it falls a little short.

M

merc1 · August 2006

It's kind of funny because they're sniping at each other over there, LOL.

Interesting. I took a peek over there and wouldn't you know it reads just like this board did a few days ago. One of Lexus' most ardent supporters is still trying to convince the rest of them that Lexus' prices are too low. Then you have the faction that actually thinks that because they aren't going to post here anymore that this board will "die off" and just like some of them wish for the end of MB, they're wishing for the demise of this board.

This is the same thing that happened a while back when someone from Team Europe started another thread, but only this time it is the Lexus fans that have run scared. I still don't get the attitude that anything they aren't a part of will fail or is somehow not worthy - beyond ridiculous.

M

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