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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Because of your recent post, I glanced at the 2007 LS board.

    Their conversation seem to be most concerned with what we HELM posters are talking about.

    I wonder what a new poster looking for insights concerning the 2007 LS would think going over there for the first time?

    I would hope the Host over there gently reminds them not to snipe at us, but to discuss the new 2007 LS. :)
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    the review states what "team Europe" has always been willing to say, The LS, and Lexus in general makes great quality cars that severely lack in descent driving dynamics but for anybody that doesn't care about that it's truly a great car, at a great value price.
    Bottom line, don't feel bad about calling a car as you see it I think the veterans here Merc, Tag, Design, Lg, HP, blkhemi have way more knowledge of cars than I do, but ya can't lose sleep [not that anyone is] over someone that can't handle that their particular choice in cars isn't being worshiped in all categories. None of these HELMS do "everything" well. They can all stand to improve is some area. End of rant
    Now, back to the discussion of German vs Italian Vs English design philosophy. Very interesting IMO and hopefully not to off topic for our good host.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    What would also be really good is if the Host over here gently reminds all of you to discuss the cars and not the other discussion! ;)
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I asked one of the Lexus fans long time ago what the advantage was to having a V8 in a luxury car that needs to be revved (to a sports car like RPM) in order to get the torque/power to move the car, but never got an answer. Simply put a larger engine that makes better low-end torque doesn't need to work as hard.

    I recall that thread, and I remember how I mentioned the advantage of torque, as is relates to smooth quiet luxury, and then you sent me a link to the CLS AMG video which demonstrated torque at the extreme.

    To Lexus' credit though I'm sure there isn't an ounce of harshness...

    Not so fast, merc. That is not the case. They can deny it all they want, but there IS, I repeat, there IS harshness to the LS high RPM engine. Lexus has done a great job at isolating it, but it was one of the things that bothered me on my test drive of the LS last Thanksgiving. I wonder how much different this one will be.

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Thanks for posting this review of the new LS.

    What a great quote! "Objectively it does everything you could ask of it, subjectively it falls a little short."
    Really sums up what we Euros have been saying for years.

    Am I reading too much into this, or does the guy driving the new LS in the photo look completely bored out of his skull?

    As to the new sport package, I hope this version will be available at many Lexus dealers for people like me to test.
    I remember last year inquiring about the "euro-tuned" version, and both salespeople at 2 different dealers looked at me like I was nuts-they acted like they didn't even know it was available!
    Well, at least the coffee was good-served with cream from genuine Angus cows!
    It's pretty easy getting used to the "Lexus Experience." :blush:
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    For a car with so many weaknesses, the LS (and accompanying board) sure gets a lot of airtime!

    I frequently hear that the LS430 rattles like a hampster cage when you put your foot into it. This is what is known as "common knowledge". Hopefully Lexus will correct that defect in the LS460.

    Does anyone else find it hard to fathom a 4300lb car that does 0-60 in 5.5 seconds being short on low-end torque, or NEEDING to be revved to draw power?

    Maybe it has the greatest mid-range torque in the Universe! :)

    I know everyone here is eager to see what the Next LS can do. In about two weeks, we will have more answers than questions.

    Time will reveal. The force is strong with this one. ;)

    DrFill
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    only hope that if an auto rag tests the new LS, that they do so with the sportier suspension setup.

    Testing the base LS will be a waste of time because there is no way a performance-oriented magazine is going to rave about it.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Does anyone else find it hard to fathom a 4300lb car that does 0-60 in 5.5 seconds being short on low-end torque, or NEEDING to be revved to draw power?

    Good question, of course, but the current LS has indeed relied on a high RPM power curve.

    Is this new LS packing a completely different engine technology that should change things in some significant way?

    TagMan
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    If Lexus is smart, they'll lend the sport-leaning car rags (which is pretty much all of them) sport versions of the LS for the comparos.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Wasn't there a sportier version of the current LS that was made for reviews, but was subsequently very "rare" in the real-life marketplace?

    TagMan
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    There was a euro-tuned version, and you are right it was rare. But I don't recall it ever being reviewed.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Interesting that the enhanced performance version carried the designation "Euro"-tuned. ;)

    Never reviewed? What a waste.

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    That in my opinion would be a "no-brainer" and having such a vehicle available in a dealer's lot would get me over there to check it out.
    Makes good business sense.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    You realize, of course, the original name was supposed to be "Club Euro-Tuned." :blush:
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    My guess is that an LS460 in sport trim is still going to under-handle an S550 with ABC. But since the car rags are likely to try to equip the cars to be closer in msrp, they probably won't test the S with ABC. Which means that if Lexus supplies them with a sport version, the LS has a chance of handling credibly well against a non-ABC S. We'll see.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Yes. This will probably be true.
    But if Toyota can make the Camry SE fun to drive, I don't see why Lexus can't offer a similar package for the LS.
    I wouldn't be expecting miracles-just some improvement in handling with more road feel from the steering.

    I still have 2 years to decide on my next vehicle and as Designman will tell you, I have a rather short list of around 27 vehicles which seem to change daily, but if Lexus made a serious effort, they could sell a lot more vehicles as folks like me would be taking a look.

    I highly doubt that I would ever get an LS, but a sportier offering would make me curious enough to take a test drive.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    For a car with so many weaknesses, the LS (and accompanying board) sure gets a lot of airtime!

    Stop flattering yourself. The new LS is imminent so it’s only fitting to discuss it here. In case you haven’t noticed, this is one of the places where it can and should be discussed. Any car that is in the thread masthead will be put through the mill in the same manner, ESPECIALLY upon its introduction.

    Having said that, you should know that we still love you and your self-exiled compatriots.

    ;-)
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I highly doubt that I would ever get an LS, but a sportier offering would make me curious enough to take a test drive.

    I will test drive it anyway, just to know exactly for myself how it handles (and compares) . . . just like I did the current version, and more than once.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I highly doubt that I would ever get an LS, but a sportier offering would make me curious enough to take a test drive.

    I will test drive it anyway, just to know exactly for myself how it handles (and compares) . . . just like I did the current version, and more than once.

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Well, unfortunately Canadian Driver put a damper on testing the LS for me as they indicated "same old, same old."
    I wouldn't go to the showroom unless the sportier suspension was made available to drive. I will make some phone calls and inquire.

    Excellent Post #2370.

    As with previous posts of mine, I'm sure this message will self-destruct within several minutes.

    Maybe if I disguise myself...... :shades:
    Yeah. That oughta work!
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Is now out, link title.

    Of the sport version it says:


    A sport-tuned air suspension highlights the Touring Package, which incorporates 19-inch five-spoke wheels and summer tires, Variable Gear Ratio Steering (VGRS), and high-friction-coefficient brake pads with larger rotors.


    Sounds like it won't be "enough" for the sport-minded among you....which seems to be just about everyone still posting here.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    0-60 in 5.4

    mpg 19/27. Compares to:
    16/24 2007 S550
    17/26 2006 S430
    17/25 2006 750i
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Variable Gear Ratio Steering (VGRS), and high-friction-coefficient brake pads with larger rotors.

    Doh! The VGRS system is my absolute least favorite "feature" on the GS430. It appears that road feel will not be part of the Touring Package. Not good.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Amazing how they can't just make it a stand-alone option. BMW went through this BS with variable steering foisted upon the original E60 5-series sport package, then made it stand-alone after all of the complaints. However, nobody complains about Porsche's variable steering which comes on all of the sports cars. It is mechanical as opposed to electronic and is very subtle.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Thanks for the link.

    Whether it's "enough" or not, it's good to see Lexus moving a bit in this direction.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Who's trying to convince each other?

    The 2 reviews I read have both said driving the new LS is pretty much a snooze just like the vehicle it replaces.

    Plenty of folks don't seem to mind owning the "limo" experience.
    For them this car is just what the doctor ordered.

    The basic LS driving experience is, how shall I say, the feeling of being embalmed, I guess.
    Heh! Heh!
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    ABSOLUTELY LG!! On my test drive of a GS earlier this year, the car would've had BETTER steering and handling WITHOUT the supposed super-cool steering system.

    BUT: Lexus is not alone. BMW, the king of all things performance, should recalibrate the active steer as it saps so much fun out of the 3/5-Series that it's not worth buying the car. HP, does your 545i have active steer? A back-to-back drive of car equipped/non-equipped proved that there is nothing that can perform better than good ol' hydra-steer, no electronics please...
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    "Big, clunky automobiles"

    Try this: The LS460L will measure 2" wider and 4" longer than the 760iL/A8L, 3" longer than a S550.

    So for us "europhiles" wasting money, it's the other way around. Nobody on this board is wishing ill-success of the LS, HOWEVER, this vehicle will not nor will it ever be the vehicle to change the class. Lexus promises this with each iteration of the car, and fails miserably on all counts save for US-only sales.

    I, as I've related several times, hope that Lexus has corrected all of the shortcomings of the LS. The soggy 90's era handling/ride, the ho-hum styling, and the precise but boring interior have gotta go. Judging from what I've read, some if not all of these things have been corrected.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    focusing on other posters will be deleted without notice.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Are you kidding? There is absolutely NO WAY I was getting any BMW with active steering.
    I was exposed to this atrocity on the GS430 and it was HORRIBLE! And of course, it was not an option.

    BMW was very smart to offer the active steering as an option-otherwise there is no way I would be driving the 545 right now. I hope they get rid of it entirely, and they should be ashamed of themselves for offering it.

    The Porsche steering system sounds ideal. For that, I will put the Cayman S back on my list of 28 possible vehicles I must decide on within the next 2 years.

    I won't drive anything that has "electronic" or "drive by wire" in front of the function.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    mpg 19/27. Compares to:
    16/24 2007 S550
    17/26 2006 S430
    17/25 2006 750i


    18/27 2006 Jaguar XJ Vanden Plas
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Hadn't though to check Jag. However it is only a 4.2l engine and 0.9sec slower to 60.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    19/27 is very good for a V-8.

    The rating for my 545 V-8 is 18/26.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    The operative word here is "clunky".

    Pat, I have no clue what you are talking about or why you deleted my last post. If pro Lexus posters are not wanted on this forum just tell me. Thanks.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The impressive 18/27 rating is partly due to the fact that the Vanden Plas, like the other new-gen Jag XJ's and XK,s is made from aluminum. Considering the size of the vehicle, performance is very brisk, but not a bullet.

    The 545 rating is also impressive, IMO . . . expecially considering the performance.

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "Nobody on this board is wishing ill-success of the LS."

    I agree. I would hope every vehicle discussed here continues to evolve and be improved.
    This process tends to lift all HELM boats.
    Competition is very, very good for all of us!

    I don't believe anybody here wishes the demise of Lexus and/or the LS.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Absolutely. The LS is the ONLY Japanese representative of these HELMs, and therefore has a larger share of the burden. The European HELMs have it surrounded, yet the Lexus continues to challenge the status quo. Very healthy, and admireable, IMO.

    :)

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    It's my opinion that the new '07 Lexus is a case example of offering almost every option that could possibly be desired in a luxury vehicle.

    This is something the German manufacturers could stand to learn from. Goodness, just to get cup holders from the Germans took an act of God, and they somehow made us feel guilty for even wanting them. And then they over-engineered them, of course, with these contraptions that spring open and risk spilling the good Starbucks all over the place.

    The Lexus press release indicates an outstanding level of feature selections that will be available.

    Sounds good to me.

    TagMan
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    BMW, the king of all things performance, should recalibrate the active steer as it saps so much fun out of the 3/5-Series that it's not worth buying the car.

    It's a stand-alone option now and no one seems interested in it. Ignore it, it sucks and will die on the vine.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    The Porsche steering system sounds ideal. For that, I will put the Cayman S back on my list of 28 possible vehicles I must decide on within the next 2 years.

    I won't drive anything that has "electronic" or "drive by wire" in front of the function.


    Just for the record, Porsches have had drive-by-wire throttles since 2000. There have been several but not numerous complaints about slowness of the throttles. Of course they now offer the SportChrono as an option which increases the throttle speed by 20%. Gotta love the extortion tactics.

    I do seem to notice a sluggishness but it is not anything overwhelming. What I really notice is that you can't toggle the throttle in neutral with that vroom-vroom in-your-face challenge that often precedes a street match, not that I get into street matches but it's nice to hear the bluster. Once the rpm gets up it recedes very slowly. However, I think this is better for the engine.

    It's funny how we were talking about sound recently. The sound of the old V8 American muscle going through their excercises at a stoplight was spectacular and sits deep in the memory banks of my teenage and college years, as is the crescendo of a Ferrari symphony climbing through gears. Heh, heh... Ferrari plays Carnegie Hall...

    ;-)
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Just for the record, Porsches have had drive-by-wire throttles since 2000.

    I think there are probably very few luxury cars that dont have drive-by-wire throttles by now. It's the E-brakes and E-steering that have not been as successful.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    And of course for only an additional $8k, you can have bragging rights to the best brakes on your block.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    "It's the E-brakes and E-steering that have not been as successful."

    You couldn't said it better. Look at MBZ. The '03 E320/500 was released with much fanfare about the world class braking. It was the first mass-market use of electro-hydrolic braking. Well only 4 model years later and a refresh, the once ubiquitous braking system proved useless and MB scrapped them for a conventional setup.

    The wooden feel that I experienced when I drove a loaner E500 from the dealership was something that I've never experienced in any car that I've every driven or owned. The artificial feel often caused drivers to wonder if the brakes were working at all.

    BUT: E-brakes and E-steering are not the only culprits. Some supposed world-class e-transmissions are some of the most annoying things on the market today. Lambo's e-Gear is probably the biggest blunder behind the CambioCorsa/DuoSelect of Maserati. Lambo, while owned by Audi, whose DSG is so good in fact that premium sports car maker Porsche is in the process of replacing all of it's Tiptronic cars with the system, can't get the DSG in fear that it may not be bullet-proof enough to withstand the mighty V10/V12 power these cars produce. Well then, why offer the clunky systems at all? Ferrari learned their lessons with the first rounds of F1. It seems all they did was lift the F1 straight out of Schumacher's car and put into street use, the lurching and all.

    I'm like HP on these things. Sure electronics have made it possible for us to enjoy the technology that we have today. But it does have it's limitations. Steering, braking, and some drive-by-wire systems should not be fitted to every upper end car.

    Now there are some makers even going full electronic with things like the AC compressors in the attempt to ride out whatever strategy they have setup for themselves. Let's just stick with the basics please
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Lambo's e-Gear is probably the biggest blunder behind the CambioCorsa/DuoSelect of Maserati.

    Actually, I think that honor probably goes to the SMG in the V12 Vanquish. When Top Gear went to track test the car, the Stig broke the transmission, so they sent another car, and he broke that one. I'm not positive, but I think he may have even broken a third Vanquish before he was able to get one to survive a single lap of less than a minute and a half, and even in that case he had to take the launch very easy as to not break yet another transmission.

    You'll notice that the DB9 and V8 Vantage did not inherit their transmissions from the Vanquish. With SMGs though, I can at least see the point behind the idea, even if in many cases the execution is flawed. A tip-tronic automatic, while smoother around town in "D", even with paddle shifters, is just not as fun as a SMG can be.

    With E-brakes and E-steering though, I don't see any point at all, as it seems all they can ever be is "almost as good" as the hydrualic systems they are meant to replace. Is there a build cost advantage to using electronics?
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    With E-brakes and E-steering though, I don't see any point at all, as it seems all they can ever be is "almost as good" as the hydrualic systems they are meant to replace. Is there a build cost advantage to using electronics?

    WOW! That's an excellent question. After all, what IS the real advantage?

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Have to agree with you, Blkhemi.

    Stick to the basics!

    Last summer I test drove the GS430 and the GS300.
    The GS430 was excruciating with its wishy-washy flabby adaptive steering and ridiculous hyper-sensitive electronically assisted brakes.

    The cheaper GS300 was fun to drive-at its price it did not come with Lexus' latest electronic-meddling technology-it had normal steering and normal brakes.

    Too bad it was so cramped, with uncomfortable seats and a laughably small trunk.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Supposedly, the cost is lower in producing electronically controlled systems v. conventional ones.

    Not all of them have low cost. MBZ said that with the switch back to hydraulic brakes the company was actually able to keep the '07 E350 $875 CHEAPER than a comparable '06. The '07 E550 is only $349 more than a '06 E500, despite all of the great upgrades for this year.

    It is my understanding that no company has of yet produced or even closely replicated the feel of natural steer or brake. Some cars with varible-assist and speed-sensitive steering such as Porsche and Ferrari have blended electronics and natural feeling hydraulic together to produce a close-as-possible feel. But these are two of a very short roster of companies that have done so.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    You and I along with a slew of other people have experienced this with the GS. No wonder why the GS300 is outselling it 4-1. And this may have something to do with the lower price, but I think the GS300 is a much better buy than the GS430. The performance difference between the two is not as great a difference as in a E350/550, A6 3.2/4.2, or even a M35/45. And with the GS350 on the horizon, the sales division should widen, particularly since the GS350 will close in on V8 numbers.

    And yes, you do pay for that swoopy bodywork. The interior volume is near the back of the pack, maybe a smidge better than a S-Type.

    And to boot, they are to offer the steering system on the perfect LS?? Whoa!! I hope they don't offer it initially as this may be a problem for the brand trying to sell this car off as a touring/luxo cruiser. I hope Lexus is as smart as we think they are...
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    You and I along with a slew of other people have experienced this with the GS. No wonder why the GS300 is outselling it 4-1. And this may have something to do with the lower price, but I think the GS300 is a much better buy than the GS430. The performance difference between the two is not as great a difference as in a E350/550, A6 3.2/4.2, or even a M35/45. And with the GS350 on the horizon, the sales division should widen, particularly since the GS350 will close in on V8 numbers.

    I dont think thats really it. The GS300 has always outsold the GS400\430 by 4-1 or so, and this is the same with the rest of the segment, where sales are usually 70%+ V6. Supposedly this is why Honda decided not to make a V8 RL.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I recall that thread, and I remember how I mentioned the advantage of torque, as is relates to smooth quiet luxury, and then you sent me a link to the CLS AMG video which demonstrated torque at the extreme.

    Right, it was Oac in one his Lexus-is-everything rants that mentioned that LS460 was superior because it had a higher reving engine and a 8-speed/CVT. The first boast is now being proven incorrect and the latter doesn't exist. I remember the CLS55 video, but I don't think I posted it to demostrate torque or did I?

    Not so fast, merc. That is not the case. They can deny it all they want, but there IS, I repeat, there IS harshness to the LS high RPM engine. Lexus has done a great job at isolating it, but it was one of the things that bothered me on my test drive of the LS last Thanksgiving. I wonder how much different this one will be.

    Ok, we'll have to see then. So far the reviews are coming in saying what they've always said about the LS, loaded with features, smooth/quiet riding, but no fun to drive. As predicted on the LS board the usuals are already crying a river saying that the writers have mindset that won't allow them to see the LS in a new light. As if Lexus is all of sudden going to make the LS any more fun to drive. They promised that with the GS and didn't deliver so why would they risk messing up the ride of the LS?

    M
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