Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

High End Luxury Cars

1343344346348349463

Comments

  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The S-class is by no means the "ultimate HELM." The Arnage, Phantom, and 57/62 are in that rarified air as the ultimate high end luxury sedan.

    I think he meant in the class of S/7/A8/LS/XJ. If that is the case I would agree with him of course. Nothing tops a S600 or S65 AMG in luxury or performance and the way they blend the two.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well, well just got the invite. Must attend and drive the LS460!

    M
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    The reviewers that are heavily in to aesthetics are always going to find something wrong with a Lexus because no matter how much Toyota says that Toyota and Lexus are separate they still share the same design traits and philosophy

    Hmmm...I guess the same could be said about Mercedes and Chrysler. Why won't some people admit that? Some seem to be obsessed with this notion concerning Toyota/Lexus but they must get nervous when they see the R7 sitting alongside a Pacifica.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I was referring to the cars being discussed on this board.
    I didn't think I would have to qualify that fact every time I post.
    Given those constraints, the MB S-Class reigns supreme as the ultimate HELM.

    Toyota/Lexus is successful because most people out there are conservative and are satisfied with basic, boring transportation. They drive to the supermarket and drive home. They don't subscribe to automags. They use CR as their benchmark for what a good car is supposed to be.

    For many posters here, Lexus/Toyota isn't good enough.
    We prefer BMW, Audi and Mercedes Benz.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Correction:

    There is no Mercedes Benz "R7."

    I believe you are referring to the R-Class which consists of the small hearse, the R350 and for bigger funerals, the R500. :)
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The measurement for a HELM includes a broad a wide array of characteristics, but to narrow down the features to a vehicle whose best attributes are that it is a rolling tomb with 19 speakers and that it parks itself is . . . well . . . NOT the primary focus, IMO.

    There needs to be more substance than that!

    TagMan
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    There is no reason not to discuss the ultimate high end sedans on this board - I think that would be great! We may not have categories for some, but that's okay. The title certainly implies that we go higher than what we often do. ;)
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The title certainly implies that we go higher than what we often do.

    and history certainly shows that you've let us drift lower than we probably should have, that's for sure. ;)

    TM
  • scottphillipscottphillip Member Posts: 249
    This month's Motor Trend has a glowing preview of the LS460. I am considering a S550 Sport to replace my SL, but may wait for the Lexus. :confuse: Money has nothing to do with my decision--reliability does.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Money has nothing to do with my decision--reliability does.

    Motor Trend is not the source for information regarding "reliability".

    You need to test and compare these cars for yourself.

    If you personally prefer the LS for its features and styling, and if you also prefer its driving dynamics over the S-Class, then you should buy the LS.

    If, however, you truly like the S-Class better, you should feel comfortable enough with the good reliability it is demonstrating thus far. In that case, buy the S-Class and enjoy the wonderful driving experience it delivers.

    If it is just statistical reliability you are after, then you really should just buy the LS, IMO.

    TagMan
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Thanks for the correction. I was getting ready to play golf and was thinking about my old Taylor Made driver!!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    If you test the new LS, may I suggest you wear a helmet or a catcher's mask and possibly a good back brace:

    According to "4Car" in their online review of the 2007 LS460:
    "The brakes are a real disappointment... the brakes arriving in rather too much of a hurry."

    A fancy, schmancy way of saying the new 2007 LS has grabby brakes.
    They aren't just making this stuff up.

    A friendly word: Just be a little careful.

    Happily, that is the only objective criticism I have seen so far on the 2007 LS460.

    The "driveability" stuff is purely an individual matter.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Anytime! And if I post that I shot 67 from the tips, you have the right to correct me too! ;)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Why don't you check out the following MB threads: "MB S-Class" and the "S-Class Warranty Issues"

    Interact with some of those folks who have actually purchased an S550.
    They will either calm your fears or steer you toward the LS460. :)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    OUCH!

    MB Blutec fails the fifty State emissions test. These new MB diesels will only be sold in 45 States.

    Doesn't bother me since in Canada emission regulations are not as harsh as in the five States that will ban the sale of new MB Blutecs.

    Tagman,

    I know you were excited about the potential sale of MB Blutecs in California. I am sorry for being the bearer of such bad news :(

    Now at least you will have greater incentive to check out the upcoming hybrid Lexus LS. ;)

    SOURCE: GREEN CAR CONGRESS
    link title
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    Do you know what an ultimate HELM is?
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Tagman,

    I know you were excited about the potential sale of MB Blutecs in California. I am sorry for being the bearer of such bad news


    Yes, you are right that I've been awaiting that engine in California.

    There will be a lot of pressure to give it the green light, so I know that MB will continue to work to overcome the obstacles by improving the engine's emissions. Sounds like there are some EPA guidelines that also need to be clarified. My guess is we'll get it later in the '07 model year, or in the following '08 model year.

    Thanks for the news update.

    TagMan
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    that it is a rolling tomb with 19 speakers and that it parks itself is . . . well . . . NOT the primary focus, IMO.

    I believe the MB CL will be the quietest car in the world even quieter than the new Lexus LS(I dont know about the hybrid LS).

    In addition electronic parking assistance will be a a MB CL feature.

    In otherwords Lexus is not going to monopolize the self parking tomb segment of the auto industry. ;)

    SOURCE: GERMAN CAR FANS

    link title
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "Do you know what an Ultimate HELM is?"

    If you are going to refer to words I used in a previous post,It would be nice if you could press "reply."
    That's what the "reply" thing is there for.

    Do you know what DECORUM is??
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Do you know what an ultimate HELM is?

    No! But I do know what an Ultimate Driving Machine is.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I believe the MB CL will be the quietest car in the world even quieter than the new Lexus LS.

    In addition electronic parking assistance will be a a MB CL feature.

    In otherwords Lexus is not going to monopolize the self parking tomb segment of the auto industry.


    But, only one of those tombs might actually be suitable for a dead driver! lol. ;)

    Couldn't resist, and I'm gonna catch heck for it.

    TagMan
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    But, only one of those tombs might actually be suitable for a dead driver! lol.

    King Tut would definitely choose the Lexus :D
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    The ultimate HELM is the Mercedes Benz S-Class!

    There is no more Ultimate Driving Machine, Dewey.

    With the advent of iDrive and adaptive steering, BMW can now proudly call itself the "Company of Ideas." They never said the ideas had to be good ones. Very smart of them! ;)
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Declaring the S-Class the ceiling for this discussion makes no sense to me. :confuse:
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Human touch puts Lexus ahead

    ....a level of build quality that would do Rolls Royce proud.

    ....the LS manages to be remarkably stable when cornering. On tight and twisting Austrian mountain roads, the car tucked in nicely into the turns. It's never going to have sports car handling but for its size it kept a very impressive line and even on the tightest bends it never felt unwieldy.

    On faster motorway runs the ride quality throughout our two-day test drive was sublime.

    ....the LS has previously failed to sparkle in terms of driver interaction and enjoyment. The new LS goes some way to rectify that, though it's still very much designed to waft the occupants to their desired destination. Even after two relatively long journeys behind the wheel of the new LS we never got out feeling tired or jaded. That's perhaps the greatest compliment that can be paid to a luxury saloon.

    If there is any criticism of ride and handling, it's that at higher speeds the handling seemed too neutral for our taste, lacking the feedback you get from some competitors. That's a feature common with cars designed for the US market and given that it's the biggest sales arena for the LS, it's hardly surprising the development was honed to meet US tastes as much as European ones.

    ....All this add up to the greatest threat yet to the German dominance of the luxury car market. Where once we regarded Lexus as an also-ran, the new LS signals a serious effort to turn it into one of the leader's in this class.
  • greasykid1greasykid1 Member Posts: 336
    I'm sure that you are correct about Bluetech;however it will have a more complicated emmissions system that will incease the cost of the car and be more expensive to maintain. Practically the same performance and milage as the current CDI.

    Besides all this my wife says I can't buy any more cars. This is #19 Mercedes.

    See all these problems with MB posted. Bought my first MB in 1971.....a 280SL. Have had several of most models..SL,S,C,E,SLK,6 diesels. Guess I am just lucky as I have never had a bad one.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I have no objection to adding more vehicles here.
    My comments are confined to the vehicles discussed here.
    Of course there are some HELM that are, well, "more ultimate."

    Sure! Expand the list! :)
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    Toyota/Lexus is successful because... basic, boring transportation. They drive to the supermarket and drive home. They don't subscribe to automags. They use CR as their benchmark for what a good car is supposed to be..."

    Have you done a survey to make that statement? Or have you entered everybody's house to check what magazines they read? This is probably the most bigoted post I have read in last 3-4 days.

    I have seen dozens of Lexus owners who also own a porsche and vice-versa. Almost every person in their right mind would know that porsche enthusiasts along with ferrari owners are the most diehard racers.

    So this assertion that lexus is boring and its owners are boring is so wild and so out of touch with reality that its mind boggling.

    Rather than spending countless hours on these forums one should venture outside once in a while to observe the universe.

    Many owners own porsche alongside Lexus because they are symbols of excellence. Benz is the past, bmw pretends but isn't. Audi is wannabe and trying. Truth is very bitter sometimes, but its the truth nonetheless.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Well we may not be able to add categories for all the possibile "ultimate" high end sedans, but we can - and I believe should - discuss them. The Arnage, Phantom and Maybach 57/62 have been mentioned. Thoughts? Additions?

    I can add all of those four (57/62 are separate)if we drop two of the ones listed. IOW, we have a 9 category limit, but that does not have to equate to a 9 vehicle limit, especially not in a discussion such as this one.

    Anyway, let's see what folks might like to discuss and go from there.
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    How many people have the means to own them. Those who have, do not waste time in these forums.

    Why discuss if you cannot own them.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Why not? You don't find them interesting? Of course if you don't want to talk about them, you certainly don't have to! ;)
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    steve - the part of your post that indicates that Lexus owners might own or be interested in more exciting cars makes good sense to me.

    But, the way you characterize the Benz and the BMW and the Audi doesn't do you any good, because it represents you very poorly.

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    If you are going to quote from one of my posts, would you kindly press the "reply," so I can read the entire post you are taking this quote out of context, instead of having to search back to find it.
    It's called "common courtesy." :)

    When the warden allows me to "venture out" as you call it, I will repeat what I already posted:

    It has been my observation that approximately 70% of LS drivers are senior citizens. On the highway I have seen many of them driving too slowly even though they have this big powerful V-8 at their disposal.

    It's what I have found. Sorry if it frustrates you. :surprise:
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Yep, that Audi makes some of the finest taxi's in all of Africa. The LS is for the U.S. only. It's called exclusivity!!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    No I don't and by the way look at it yourself. How many posts have been posted under maserati, aston martin, rr, mm, bentley, ferrari in the past.

    Very very few. Infact some of them dont even have a thread yet. They are not relevant to any online forum.

    Porsche, Lexus, bmw, benz, thats another matter. They are mainstream and many forum users can afford them.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Let me just note that one poster represents only one poster and ascribing the views expressed in any one post to a group of people is unrealistic and unfair.

    We really, really need to get away from the "us vs. them" attitudes in here. Those attitudes have been the direct cause of the difficulties we've over the last month or two.

    Tagman, although I am replying to you and want you to hear me, I'm also speaking to everyone else here, anyone who identifies himself as a member of one camp or the other.

    Let's let it go. This is not a war. It's (supposed to be) a conversation about the cars that we all admire - in varying degrees and of course we don't have to admire all of them - instead of a "mine is bigger, um, better than yours" brawl.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Talk about whatever upper end vehicle you find of interest - or don't - your call.

    Numbers of posts in any given discussion don't tell you whether you admire a car, do they?? Those numbers certainly do not mean no one can discuss them here. :confuse:
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    note the edit
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Thank you, but what I said needs to be said. But thanks.
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    It has also been my observation that more senior citizens drive S-class and A8 slowly than LS owners.

    Also, you dont have to search back your post since the link to your post from which I quoted was in my post itself so its a useless argument, nor was my reply out of context.

    The fact is, your assertions on LS are just plain wrong and you are projecting your frustrations on me and accusing me in turn of being frustrated. Its pitiful but true.
  • warthogwarthog Member Posts: 216
    Agree that categorizing owners by the their cars is not completely reliable. As you say, the same guy might drive a LS430 to the office and go blasting around in a 911 on the weekends. (But not too many of them, I suspect.)

    Nonetheless, anyone but a true believer knows that the 430 is a vanilla, uninvolving car compared to an Audi or a BMW. Who cares? We all pick and choose what we like. But why pretend that a Lexus is other than what it is?
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    Well, you certainly can discuss. After all you are the boss here!
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    I have driven all four. A8, 7, LS and S and quite frankly I dont see much difference in terms of agility.

    quattroporte is very different. You can instantly sense it.

    But the german trio and LS are too close. On a scale of 0-100 I would rate

    70 Quattroporte

    60 S-class
    60 7
    58 A8
    57 LS 430
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I do agree. I have historically been careful to not claim to be a member of a "camp", but I do think my views themselves indicate my preference for European vehicles, and that alone seems to get me placed in a "category" or on a "side" . . . but I am typically known to be moderate and fair and balanced, with maybe an occassional jest, regarding the Lexus vehicles and those that prefer them.

    The main thing, Pat, IMO, is to be more respectful of all of our differences. You've got my support and I hope that any others that read this realize that I stand for tolerance and appreciation and respect of those that have different views.

    I would love to see this HELM forum as one that is not only about some of the best cars in the world, but contains posts made by some of the classiest people in the world as well.

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Okay Steve. Let's just agree to disagree.

    Anyhow, I am glad you found your way back to this board and even if we sometimes disagree, I will look forward to reading your future posts and having more spirited debates with you. ;)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Sure! :)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    You are correct.
    I sometimes catch myself doing just that.
    While the views I represent are my own, I am occasionally guilty of a "some of us" or a "we."

    I will attempt to edit myself more carefully in the future.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    I would love to see this HELM forum as one that is not only about some of the best cars in the world, but contains posts made by some of the classiest people in the world as well.

    We've been there before and there's no reason we can't get back there. :)
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    No problem - let's just go forward - and upward - from here. ;)
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I think that we've already had some Maybach discussions in this forum that proved to be interesting, and that if Pat officially cleared the runway, we might get a little more discussion from time to time in the future.

    Also, the heading will soon need to be updated to include the LS460 and then finally the LS600hL, or for simplification, the full Lexus LS line.

    TagMan
Sign In or Register to comment.