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  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I read in Forbes that Honda's top priority is fuel efficiency. They have no intention upon manufacturing a gas guzzling V8 since such an engine would be inconsistent with their fuel efficiency goals.

    But how does Honda explain their fuel efficiency goals with their upcoming V10 supercar? :confuse: :confuse:

    link title
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I read in Forbes that Honda's top priority is fuel efficiency. They have no intention upon manufacturing a gas guzzling V8 since such an engine would be inconsistent with their fuel efficiency goals.

    Uh, the V6 RL is not really any more efficient than some of its V8 powered competitors. The Ridgeline is also not exactly a gas-sipper.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    While Honda is making huge strides working out greater fuel efficiency, it would be quite linear to think that their top goal is their only goal.

    After all, they are still in the automobile business, and the old NSX is most definately in need of replacement. Nothing wrong with a supercar here, IMO, while they keep up the terrific work with their fuel efficient vehicles.

    Honda is one of those companies that I just find real easy to like.

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The new 300 will use the new E platform.

    Just wait and see. This is from an insider in Auburn Hills, MI. They have to do it to save money.

    Yeah we'll, but anyway at this point and time it is mere speculation.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I agree that this should be an easy point to grasp. They are similar because they are both at the top concerning excellent practices, etc. Others are trying to catch up.

    What? I have no idea as to what you're talking about here...all this can be considered as is just a brilliant excuse. No amount of Toyota-induced spin will justify a LS and a Camry looking anything alike.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    It wouldn't just work, I think it would be the best Aston Martin ever. BMW could do for Aston what Audi has done for Lambo. The M3's V8 already has more horsepower than the V8 Vantage. If they used that as a base, 480hp+ wouldn't be a problem, which would make it the 911 fighter it was supposed to be.

    Yes, yes...and I'm reading now that BMW's supervisory board has ok'd a look-see at purchasing Aston-Martin. Aston would be a perfect fit for the BMW Group.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I do, but my dealer waves me off from them every time I mention that I'd like one.... Still, just once, I'd like to own a Vanden Plas......maybe even for just a little while.

    I'd say go for it then.

    M
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    There is absolutely no reason why BMW should have constraints on buying Aston Martin.

    First, the product in the line-up in relatively new. The DB9 is one of those cars that is hugely underestimated. The potential of the car has yet to be explored due to the mal-funding that Ford provides for the maker. The Vanquish V12 was a great lux/performance combo, but it had it's share of problems, hence it's relatively short life.

    As to the V8 Vantage, this is a car with a great chassis and build in search of better powertrain. Yes the car has only 100k price tag to split the difference between the 911C and the Turbo, but the car is supposed to be chasing down 911 Turbo's, F430's, and GT Conti's. 380 hp ain't gonna cut it. At least a naturally aspirated 500hp engine is needed nowadays.

    BMW is in great shape now. With the carmaker seeing double digit profits for the first half of the year should be enough to bolster it's confidence in pursuing bigger oppurtunities. Aston's line does not need a lot fixing, just tweaking.

    Bring it on Bimmer.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    I've read several posts about the 300/E platform sharing.

    Let me say this first. The 300 does not use a DIRECT CLON
    E OF THE E-CLASS CHASSIS. Only the 5-link rear suspension is used. The 300's front suspension uses a similar setup, but here to it's all iron v. all aluminum on the E. The E-Class even uses MB's Airmatic air-spring suspension v. a traditional coil-over-shock for the 300. The wheelbase of the Chrysler is 120" long(3 longer than a '06 S-Class, 8 longer than a new E550). Platform sharing? Might wanna rethink that.

    GM, followed closely by Toyota, are the kings of all-out platform sharing. GM managed to sell 7 different variations of the GMT360(Trailblazer) platform. Folks this is what you call cheaping out, not being cost effective, especially seeing how the chassis was great for '02, but a year or two later, it was found to be old tech with onslaught of new competition.

    Toyota has this problem also. But to a greater extent because they do vice versa of what MB does. The lesser brand lends the more luxurious brand the platform:

    Highlander= RX350/400h
    Camry=ES350
    Land Cruiser=LX470
    Toyota 4Runner=GX470

    And the following are based off of Japanese-market cars that we don't get

    GS
    LS
    IS

    True, platform sharing is a must in this business nowadays to stay afloat. But to say one brand is devaluing itself based on lending it's rear suspension geometry to a car that has sold 390k copies since it's '05 inception is flat out pathetic. Does BMW devalue itself by selling $20k Mini's? MB with Smart(albeit with a shaky start, questionable US stability)? Both makers posted bigger revenue's and profits over Lexus(not Toyota) this year. Interesting indeed.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    And the following are based off of Japanese-market cars that we don't get
    GS
    LS
    IS

    Not anymore. Our IS, GS, LS is now Japan's IS, GS, and LS. When they had Toyota badges on them, they were the same car, just with a different name. Its not as if a "lesser" JDM Toyota was used to make our LS. Its the same with the Honda Legend and Nissan Fuga. Same car, different badge.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    You seem determined to make platform sharing a shameful act when Toyota does it but somehow noble when European brands share platforms. Parts is parts and sharing is sharing. Keep on dancing. ;)

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Speaking of European sharing, has anyone brought up Audi/VW?

    Some of the people on this board that criticize Lexus/Toyota seem to be Audi fans....

    Are they employing a double standard? OK for Europeans to share, not ok for Asians?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Does BMW devalue itself by selling $20k Mini's?

    No. Because BMW does not share its platform with any Minis. And yes BMW's reputation would be diminished if they shared their platforms with Mini. The fact that BMW does not engage in platform sharing with non-luxury models is what makes BMW an exceptionally distinct auto company.

    True, platform sharing is a must in this business nowadays to stay afloat.

    BMW doe not only stay afloat but thrives without any platform sharing between luxury and non-luxury models. IMO that is the way it should be for any auto maker that manufactures exclusive luxury cars.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    That is the first time that I have seen a manufacturer say that it was cheaper to build a diesel than gas auto.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The days when the Audi A6 shared its platform with a VW Passat are over with the exception of the Audi A3 which shares its platform with a VW Rabbit.
    The new upcoming Audi MLP platform will not be shared with any Volkswagens.

    Despite Toyota being the best platform sharing company in the industry I would never consider a Lexus that shares its platform with a more humble Toyota. A Lexus LS, GS and IS are the only cars that I would ever consider seriously, otherwise I would save my money and buy a V6 Camry instead .
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    With 2 turbo-chargers included!

    That guy Clarkson is a real sour puss too. Hardly likes anything.
    He calls the 535d " a true 155 mph car."
    Looks like he was having a lot of fun putting it through its paces at the track.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I thought the days of Toyota platform-sharing with Lexus are over. :confuse:
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Speaking of European sharing, has anyone brought up Audi/VW?

    Some of the people on this board that criticize Lexus/Toyota seem to be Audi fans....

    Are they employing a double standard? OK for Europeans to share, not ok for Asians?

    Whether it's the domestics, Asians or the Europeans . . . it absolutely makes no difference.

    We've all seen different forms of platform sharing over the years, and we've even seen vehicles with engines from different manufacturers. Heck, my Lotus is a British Eurocar with a fabulous Japanese Toyota powertrain . . . so where's my double standard that you speak of? ;)

    The point is that there are big differences in the methods used for platform sharing. Re-badging what amounts to no more than cosmetic changes is certainly one thing we've seen, but sharing engines with otherwise entirely different vehicles is another, and sharing the chassis and suspension is still yet another.

    It depends upon what is shared. I was joking the other day when I mentioned the idea of a Mercedes using the Dodge "Hemi" engine.

    So, the platform sharing can be at many different levels.

    The old Chevy Camaro / Pontiac Firebird thing comes to mind. So, tell me . . . the Chevy is like the Toyota and the Pontiac is the like the Lexus . . . right or wrong?

    TagMan
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    ...and the Audi is like the Passat. So what? This whole discussion on platform sharing is pointless here. This is the helm board, right? If you want to talk about Lexus please talk about the LS. If you want to talk about the lower end cars like Chevy, Ponitac, etc. I am sure there is a place for that.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    This whole discussion on platform sharing is pointless here. This is the helm board, right?

    Well, someone on the HELM board brought it up, I believe, in reference to the relationship between Chrysler and Mercedes, and the rest of us made comments.

    And then the LS was brought up as it relates to Toyota.

    Certainly Mercedes and Lexus LS are both HELMs , so any discussion anyone wants to make about their respective platforms is a lot more on topic than many of the recent posts around here.

    And the references to other non-HELM manufacturers were merely for the sake of a comparative analogy with the HELMs.

    I see no reason to tell all those who shared opinions on the subject that they are pointless.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I thought the days of Toyota platform-sharing with Lexus are over.

    Old habits are hard to break. ;)

    TagMan
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Well, I don't really mind if you want to talk about sharing between Mercedes and Chrysler. :)

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    It's no secret that I am one of a very few Audi owners on this thread, so I take it that the comment could've been directed towards me.

    With that being said, no one ever said that Audi didn't platform share. I merely stated that DCX is not the only maker to do this. And of course sparks fly when a Lexus fan see a post from a G'car fan that is not what they think it's supposed to be .

    Well sorry, because it is what it is. Audi share all of what, one platform with VW now. The Phaeton is loosely based on the A8, but all of it's bits are nothing from Audi. The A3 is based on the Golf(Rabbit), and will remain so even with the MLP platform on the horizon.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Well, I don't really mind if you want to talk about sharing between Mercedes and Chrysler.

    Good, because I think that (and Lexus/Toyota) are still the main focus as I see it. (You'll just have to grant me a pardon for my domestic references ;) )

    And, oh, BTW, no need to bash blkhemi. He has a big job to do holding down the Audi front . . . and he does a darned good job of it. :D

    TagMan
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Money creates complacency.
    Complacency creates rot.

    As money lines BMW coffers there are rumors that BMW may flush a large portion of that hard earned money down the toilet.

    According to F1 Racing magazine there are rumors that BMW is trying to persuade Schumacher to join their Sauber team with a 100 million dollar base salary and a compensation package that potentially can grow into a billion dollars .

    A billion dollars? It appears BMW a relatively small niche player in the auto industry would rather invest a disproportionally large share of their hard earned money in image (fluff) than in engineering (substance).

    IMO such buffoonery is an ominous signal for any company.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    It appears BMW a relatively small niche player in the auto industry would rather invest their hard earned money in image (fluff) versus engineering (substance).

    Maybe so, but before we jump to that conclusion, do we know what BMW's advertising (image fluff) budget is, and whether or not this falls within that parameter, or whether it is truly excessive buffoonery?

    To be fair, BMW does seems to spend a fair sum on engineering, and seems to get results, but I wouldn't mind knowing some hard numbers here, before we condemn them so harshly.

    On the surface, your reaction to it seems darned logical and realistic.

    TagMan
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Ok let us try going a bit below the surface. I linked the 2005 BMW Anuual Report below:

    link title

    The Annual Report is in Euro so you will have to convert the currency values. Currently one Euro is worth 1.28 US$.

    2005 BMW R&D = 2.9 Billion Euros
    2005 BMW Sales & Admin = 3.9 Billion Euros
    2005 BMW Profit Before Tax = 3.2 Billion Euros

    Unfortunately advertizing is embedded in the Sales/Admin figure and is not disclosed seperately. Also Sale/Admin can include many costs that are not even directly related to marketing.

    Based on the figures above a potential billion dollars in Schumacher's pockets is quite significant indeed. Toyota can afford it but I think their executives are too shrewd to spend that kind of money on one individual.

    In fact I highly doubt that BMW is willing to spend a billion dollars in its upcoming steam engine technology. A technology that could radically improve BMW sales. (unfortunately BMW does not disclose how much they intend to spend on such a technology)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    As to who might buy Aston Martin, that's anyone's guess, though workers will hope that current management, private-equity investors or a rich entrepreneur in the mold of David Brown emerges. It was Brown who turned Aston Martin into a brand fit for James Bond to drive.

    Though ruling out a European or even Japanese car maker as a potential buyer would be foolhardy, it's unlikely that, in these difficult times for the auto industry, a volume car maker would pay a king's ransom for Aston Martin, even with the Lagonda and Tickford brands thrown in.

    Based on the above from Barrons, BMW is not expected to be the top contender for Aston Martin .
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Toyota can afford it but I think their executives are too shrewd to spend that kind of money on one individual

    They certainly didn't become #1 by writing billion dollar checks.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    It's a fine line of definition, howard. From my visits to Japan, I have seen no Lexus sold there. But the Toyoda Altezza in Japan has been our IS250 previously. So, it's more of a rebadge than platform sharing on that one. But I think that was an experiment, a successful one. Now, we're going to get a real IS competitor to the BMW 3. As for the GS, I know of no Toyodas built on that platform in Japan, certainly not sold here. The LS may be using a base platform for the Century or possibly the Athlete, although I didn't get to check the Athlete to see if it's FWD or RWD. So I don't know.

    It doesn't bother me. The LS is what it is. And I like it. If it's sold as a Toyoda in Japan, it must be a damn fine car.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I know I read that the ES and Camry shared a platform at one time.
    I would hope those days are now over.

    Are they?
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Ok let us try going a bit below the surface. I linked the 2005 BMW Anuual Report below:

    Where's ljflx when we need him? ;)

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I know I read that the ES and Camry shared a platform at one time.
    I would hope those days are now over.

    The ES and Camry share something like 30% of their parts. As I said before, Toyota could do a "super premium" package for the V6 Camry with real wood, the ML stereo, etc. Nobody would buy it. No one's going to pay $37K+ for a Camry.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Thanks. I didn't realize that about the 30% sharing.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Thanks. I didn't realize that about the 30% sharing

    That is exactly why I said Toyota is the best platform sharing company in the world. Many ES and RX buyers are not even aware that their car is sharing the platform of a more humbler Toyota.

    Kudos for Lexus marketing.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Well, I guess if Lexus didn't share a bit with Toyota, the prices of Lexus vehicles would be significantly higher, resulting in sales significantly lower.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    That is exactly why I said Toyota is the best platform sharing company in the world. Many ES and RX buyers are not even aware that their car is sharing the platform of a more humbler Toyota.

    Kudos for Lexus marketing.

    True. Recently, while chatting with some friends about their Lexus SUV, I mentioned something about the Toyota platform, and not as a put-down or anything, and they were oblivious to the fact, and I could tell that it darned near insulted them. Whoa. Close call. I said no more about it.

    There was no way they wanted to know that their Lexus SUV was really based upon a Toyota!

    Makes me wonder how many others are like that out there?

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    See post 2670, 2007 LS thread for the link:

    The sportier suspension seems to eliminate body lean and the brakes are fine and feel "normal."

    So we have a tie on the brakes: one for, one against.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Good point. I am sure the same would apply to Audi/Volkswagen and Mercedes/Chrysler owners. ;)

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    I know this is not important to most of you here but I decided to do some calculations comparing the 2006 LS 430 with the car it is mostly compared to here, the Mercedes S 600. True cost of ownership over 5 years as follows:

    1. Mercedes- $178,633. (Yikes!)
    2. Lexus- $77,212.

    Now I can better understand the exclusivity of the S 600, though it seems to be a rather poor investment.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Well, I guess if Lexus didn't share a bit with Toyota, the prices of Lexus vehicles would be significantly higher, resulting in sales significantly lower.

    Exactly. Making a bespoke platform for the ES would probably drive the price up to $50K, and for what? ES drivers don't care anything about dynamics or handling. They want quiet and comfortable, and the Camry platform is perfectly capable of that.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Reviewing the new LS460, Jeff James of "About Cars" offers:

    "The new L-Finesse styling is sleek and modern, but more than a few curious onlookers initially mistook the new Lexus for a BMW."
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    "but more than a few curious onlookers initially mistook the new Lexus for a BMW.""

    Isn't that the objective?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    HORSEPOWER is nice, but processing power is better. That seems to be the motto of the modern car, which is becoming as much an electronic system as a mechanical one.

    In some cars, such as the Mercedes-Benz S-Class or the BMW 7-Series, electronics already account for some $10,000-20,000 of the price. The most rapid growth is in the area of information and entertainment systems, sales of which will increase by 10% a year over the next decade, according to Roland Berger, a consultancy.

    Jürgen Hubbert, a former branding boss at Mercedes, says electronics accounted for more of the firm's warranty claims than anything else for many years.

    Roland Berger's research found that Japanese firms—which are also keen on electronics, but value simplicity too—have done a better job of pleasing customers. Carmakers should take heed. Electronics can make cars more fun. But when drivers leave their desks and slip behind the wheel, they expect to be done with technical support for the day.

    SOURCE: THE ECONOMIST, AUG. 24TH, 2006

    1) Ten to twenty thousand dollars of electronics in a S Class or 7 Series? Yikes, just imagine the potential repair costs for someone who owns such a car beyond warranty?

    Buyers in the resale market are far more frugal than new car buyers and how will these frugal buyers respond when they are confronted will four digit electronic repair costs?

    As I had predicted many months ago electronics in the 21st century will play the same role as corrosion did in the 1970s in terms of increasing the numbers of cars laying around in a scrap heap. Disposal will definitely become a tempting alternative when confronted with outrageous electronic repair bills.

    2) The strength of luxury German car makers is in mechanical engineering and their weakness is in electronics. It is likely that Japanese luxury car makers will be in a far better position than Germans in terms of taking advantage of the growing importance of electronics in the automotive industry.

    In my case mechanics means everything in terms of buying a car. Unfortunately that may not be the case for the younger Generation of Xers and Yers.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I don't know. Ardent LS admirers here have expressed their distaste for Bangle's designs.

    Not so sure they and other LS lovers will like Lexus' decision to go in that direction.

    From what I saw of the new LS on MotorWeek, looks pretty easy to like.

    Once that car starts parking itself, they will forget about the Bangle influence. :)
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    "Good point. I am sure the same would apply to Audi/Volkswagen and Mercedes/Chrysler owners."

    Nice try, but you know more than I that a potential A3 owner knows that the car is based off of the Rabbit. It's even in the sells pitch at Audi. Audi target's this car for 25-35 year old up and comers. These are the same set of people that cross-shop the R32 and GTI's.

    Now what other platforms were you blabbering about as Audi and VW doesn't share another, no, not even the Q7?
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Myself along with a slew of others would love to know when and where does a LS430 compares to the ultimate luxury S600?

    True Cost TO Own is what it is. A 278hp V8 car will burn almost half the gas than that of a 500hp+ V12 Benz. The price is double of that of a LS430.

    But what does True Cost not tell you? That high-to-maintain- '07 S600 will retain 91% of it's value over a five year period, compared to a lowly 69% for the LS.

    Poor investment? Only to the person that thinks that if they put up a loud enough shout that they'll convert someone to believe that this particular car is the ultimate save all. Only to the person that thinks that a car with such prestige as the S600 has is just a mere investment. ALL CARS ARE INVESTMENTS.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Hmmm...sorry, but you had better check your math on retained values. Edmunds does not have the 2007 LS listed but you can compare the 2006 LS VS. the 2006 S 600.

    According to Edmunds the 06 LS cost $61,918. and at the end of 5 years it will be worth $28,295. A 46% retained value.

    Also according to Edmunds the 06 S 600 cost $148,170. and at the end of 5 years it will be worth $54,257. A 37% retained value.

    Where did you get the 91% figure? A Mercedes salesman? ;)

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Also according to Edmunds the 06 S 600 cost $148,170. and at the end of 5 years it will be worth $54,257. A 37% retained value.

    What a lot of pie in the sky bunk. So Edmunds is an authority in telling you with 20/20 vision what the retained value of a car will be in 5 years? I dont think so! In fact no person or organization can make such a prediction (except Nostradamus but he died several centuries ago)

    Overall Benzes have strong resale values according to businesses like ALG/Bluebook that just happen to be in the business of estimating retained values and are renowned to be the most credible sources in North America for retained values.

    And let us not forget the car company that achieves highest retained values year after year (the name of the company is not Lexus but BMW). And no I did not receive this information from my BMW salesman ;)
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    "but more than a few curious onlookers initially mistook the new Lexus for a BMW.""

    Isn't that the objective?

    Thank you nvbanker. Yes, it is. Simply more evidence that Lexus will impact BMW, and more importantly, consider that it is deliberate.

    TagMan
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