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Comments
I believe that the LS460 can downshift at least 3 gears instantly, if not 4....can't remember which review that was in.
hence the S-Classes 5.1 secs to 60 and a 30-50mph passing time of only 3.2 seconds
You conveniently forgot to mention that that is with an engine that displaces about 20% more than in the LS. Let's wait until MB introduces an S450 (if they have the courage) for a more fair comparison. I predict the LS460 will beat the S450 in 0-60 and passing times, as well as in mpg.
It's actually quite a car that many folks so easily fall in love with, but for a variety of reasons many less will part with their green to actually own one. There are simply more mainstream choices out there.
TagMan
What exactly makes the SC's interior "plusher" than the SL's? The SC interior is plush for sure, but it is an example of a company trying to reach to far to be something it isn't, elegant. All those different materials and colors jocking for attention make it a tacky mess in some colors, IMO. It looks custom made for the pinky ring set. BTW, it wasn't just me that said the SC430 handles like a boat, it has been any and every magazine and some Lexus owners right here that have also said the same thing, so it was hardly just me.
LS engineers have stated that the 7-speed running in the S-Class is really a 6-speed spliced into an additional gear ration, not a true 7-speed, so they didn't think very highly of modeling their tranny after that.
What nonsense. If that is the case then their 8-speed is nothing more than a 7-speed spliced into an additional gear "ratio" too. Anything to say that the competition didn't advance the transmission game and that they did is what that statement is saying, what a load.
M
The 8 speed transmissions that are installed in the LS have received less than stellar reviews, particularly the review that Car and Driver gave it when it said the gearing was too tall on 1st 3rd and OD, and the transmission was lazy to react to the gas pedal, and forget about the manual mode. Then they go on to say that the Benz 7-G remains "top dog" in this class.
Doc, when you have the web page on your screen, simply highlight the web address of the page you are viewing, and then "copy" the address. Then simply "paste " that address in your post. That way, we can all see the web address. Linking it is optional, but also easy, and would further require you to highlight the address after you paste it in your post and select the "url" button just below where you enter your post.
But if it is simple enough, just copy and paste the web page's address in the future.
BTW, it is a distinct pleasure to see you posting on the HELM forum, my friend, and I truly appreciate your input. Whether we agree or disagree is secondary.
TagMan
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060905/FREE/60905003/1024/L- - ATESTNEWS
We decided right from the start. When we launched the LS430, BMW already had a six-speed, which beat us in the “world first” category. At that time we started studying eight speeds. We met with Aisin at a World Cup game (in Japan) about four years ago about the transmission’s development. The Mercedes S class has seven speeds, but sixth and seventh are so close that we think it’s just a six-speed.
Now because their first and second gears are so short does that make it just a 7-Speed is the question these engineers should be asked.
"We think it's just a 6-Speed".
Yeah sure.
M
That age old rule about their being no replacement for displacement seems to be in play here.
M
"Compared to the LS, the S class interior looks like a farm tractor. People who buy this car deserve better".
"The S class uses more gas than most SUVs".
"The S class is no match for the LS in terms of noise, vibration, and harshness".
"I won't even get into all the electronic glitches in the S and the crappy after sale service".
Well, I guess that about sums it up.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
The drivetrain should be extremely powerful, yet smooth as silk.
Hauntingly fast, yet technically efficient.
Eerily quiet, yet has a lion's growl when pushed.
The 750i has a pretty sweet engine too.
I think you'll be splitting hairs when comparing any one of the World's best engines.
But at 4.6 liters, the Lexus deserves special praise for standing up to engines much larger and coming to the show with a wink in it's eye.
DrFill
ALL your favorite comps trash the S-Class? Well that sums up your point-of-view pretty well, doesn't it?
I'll bet you must think no one could do the same in reverse . . . but what would be the point really.
TagMan
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Bad idea. Instead of two, Ford\PAG will now have three very similar cars with similar price tags. The Volvo\Yamaha 4.4L V8 combination will also out power the more prestigious Jaguar, although I've read that engine is proving too costly, and Ford is going to discontinue using it.
But there is one shining star: The XK. I saw the XKR in person in the City yesterday. The car is so stunning yet still Jag-stealth, and understandably so. The Taurus-esque grille is gone on this model, and Jag is getting serious with the performance of this car with next years 550hp+ XKR+R.
Jaguar has done a great job of making the new XKR look more modern, more distinctive, and more macho without spoiling the looks of the old car. The bright wire grille looks fantastic. Definitely at the top of my must drive list.
Why does it deserver praise?
Just to do it because they could? If you had to rev a Bentley (let’s say Continental GT – one of my favorites) in the same manner as the LS (obviously basing my opinion on others reviews) we’d all laugh.
We dismiss the higher revving 4.6L V8 (conjecture here I’ve never driven it just really shoot off at the mouth) because it’s “pretty good” for an engine of that size. In this category that is unacceptable.
Peak hp (in this class anyway) really is only useful for bragging purposes; which is why the diesels in Europe are popular (I suppose also the ga$...but if that is really a concern VW’s and Toyota’s are cheaper)
There are no engine size restrictions so squeezing more hp out of a 4.6 may have cost more than developing a larger 5L or 6L.
It doesn’t appear that they needed a smaller engine to fit in the engine bay, or are concerned about weight distribution; so to save 1mpg (or so) you have to rev higher or more so than the others.
Maybe I’m missing the whole “Lexus thing”; “why would you want to rev your Lexus?” Last LS I’ve driven was an LS400 so it’s been a while (MY 99 or so). But I can honestly say I found a 3 series more comfortable (for my driving style-why go slow when you can go fast?).
I respectfully disagree with your notion that the A8, 7 series and S Class are pre-destined to lose market share. I strongly believe that all car companies can avoid declining market share by redefining their new generation models with exciting features and specs. In the case of the new S-Class there is no need for MB to redefine anything in terms of remaining competitive. In fact the S Class may take market share from the new LS, especially if a new S430 or even better a S320 Blutec diesel is introduced.
And just wait a few more years for the car that will give the upcoming Porsche Panamera a run for its money: The BMW 7 Series, ofcourse.
you wrote the following in a prior post:
Certainly the A8 along with the S-Class and the 7-Series all are impacted when it comes to Lexus' significant market share. The sales have to come from somewhere, and those are the other HELMS in the arena, so they are the ones that lose market share.
Hey Dewey,
That was a response to your post 18678.
This, however, you just posted:
I strongly believe that all car companies can avoid declining market share by redefining their new generation models with exciting features and specs.
If all companies avoid declining market share, then the market is basically stagnant, with only population growth as the source of growth. Sales growth occurs from two sources: first from an increased population of buyers, and second from the competition.
It is not realistic for models to change fast enough anyway. The "newness" wears off and the model has to reach the end of its cycle before the replacement comes. Sales are typically weakest at the end of the cycle, and strongest at the beginning, although this is not a rule.
So, while your idea of redefining their new generation models is good, those models will still go through their respective cycles.
The bottom line in all of this is that there are always going to be some of the models at the end of the cycles while there are others at the beginning, and competition will force the buyer to make a choice. Brand loyalty is a factor, but not a requirement of a buyer.
Therefore . . . market share will shift, and there will be winners (gainers) and losers.
The LS460, IMO, will gain market share. And that means someone will lose market share that they might have otherwise had. And that leaves Mercedes, BMW, and to a smaller extent, Audi.
For the sake of clarification, I am not in the least suggesting that Lexus's gain in market share will seriously harm Mercedes or BMW, but I have no doubt that there will be increasing sales lost to the new and improved Lexus LS460 that otherwise would have gone to MB or BMW.
TagMan
We will let time be the judge and await future sales data to see who is right or wrong.
A job worth doing is worth doing right. If it can't be right, then don't do it at all. Ah, brings back memories...
Jag, IMO, doesn't know where to go with the S and X-type's. As the competition rises, these to along with their Saab comp. gets left in the dust. It's great to remain humble to the company, but in this business and in this class of car, humbleness get's you wiped off of the page.
I read too that the Japanese-built Yamaha V8 is costly to the company. Most of the reason being that the Yamaha company can't crank out enough to meet capacity and the engine costs 3 times as much to build a 4.6/5.4 modular Ford V8. You pay for what you get as Yamaha is known in the motorcycling and boating world to be the best, and judging from the past ventures with Ford with the Taurus SHO, the engines proved to be the best all around-performers with Toyota-like smoothness. Can't quite figure out the low-output of the 3.2L inline 6 either. With only 235hp, it seems that the engine should've best been left alone and just give the go ahead with the Duratec 35, as in previous years and generations.
As to the XKR, a definete must drive this year for me also. The reports have been generous for the XKR, a fresh breath for Jag.
It goes 0-60 in 5.5 seconds.
What would I be revving it for?
The LS460 doesn't "need" anything! :mad:
Except maybe a comparison test.
DrFill
Both companies report their cars at 5.4s. In arriving at your 1s claimed advantage, you appear to have picked the very worst carmag measurement for the LS and the very best carmag measurement for the S. In truth, the most rational way to compare is to take an average of all the carmag results for the S and compare to an average of all carmag results for the LS. Problem is, not too many carmags have yet presented 0-60 times (other than the offical Lexus number) for the LS. So the comparison will have to wait for some months. I would be willing to wager $100,000 that the difference, if in the S's favor, will not be as high as 1 second. If you are agreeable to such a wager, contact me through the host and we can each leave the money in escrow with a law firm.
I will grant that when a proper and fair comparison of 0-60 times is made, the S550 may top the LS460. What are you going to say down the road if and whn MB gets around to introducing an S450?
Back on the S550:
The Benz is heavier than the LS and one cog short of it's tranny
This whole line of discussion started when you started questioning the ability of the Lexus engineers. Well, let's take a look at your comment about weight and cogs. Does it reflect well on MB engineers that they managed to design a car that likely will prove to have less total room (passenger + trunk), yet weighs so much more that you use weight as an excuse for needing an extra 20% displacement to possibly outrace Lexus? Does it also reflect well on the MB engineers that their AT has 7 speeds to Lexus's 8?
So?
Does that make the S550 a better buy? A better luxury car? Worth the $20k premium?
By the first week of November, we will have a comparison test to digest, and I expect Lexus' value to carry the day.
I'm sure the S550 is an incredible car!
Does anyone see a way Mercedes can bring a S450 over here, and have it be competitive? :confuse:
BTW, the LS460 has a Handling/Performance option, so handling/braking stats on the other models is not indicative of the LS' ability.
DrFill
There is some sense in letting Volvo continue to use their own 5 and 6 cylinder engines, rather than just handing them a Duratec. It allows them to keep some individuality, as opposed to Saab, which is basically a mish-mash of Chevy\Opel parts.
LS or S550. It seems like Lexus will offer competitor cars for the event. Pretty generous I think.
Anyone else registered?
Test drove and found S550 to be not that impressive as it is made out to be. The interior looks similar to BMW. And the the car isnt any better than the previous one.
So what is the issue here. Is it not true??
It goes 0-60 in 5.5 seconds.
And it needs revs and short gearing to get there going by most of the reviews so far. Why? Because it is short on low end torque, that is the difference between 4.6 liters and 5.5 liters of V8.
M
M
On the mass-produced LS460 or the 30%-production LS460L?
Hey Doc,
BTW, the idea of an engine needing to rev is dependant upon its power curves, (torque and hp), so in the case of the LS460 engine, the Lexus tranny engineers knew that the LS460 engine's lack of low-end torque meant that the engine needed to rev up to reach sufficient torque to propel the car quickly off the line.
Too achieve this, they provided 1st and 2nd gears with very low ratios, which allow the engine to more quickly achieve the higher rpm's it "needs" to deliver its power more efficiently . . . because the engine's power exists at those higher rpms.
Doc, if you ever rode a 10-speed bike, or similar, when you were younger (heck, maybe you still ride one), you would remember how you needed to be in low gear to get an instant start from a standstill, and then quickly you would shift to the higher gear ratios.
Same principal applies to the engine/tranny. The point that keeps being made regarding the LS460 engine is that it does not provide a lot of low end torque, and that the Lexus tranny engineers addressed that issue by providing the necessary low gears to deliberately cause the vehicle to accelerate quickly.
It's not a "right or wrong" thing here. It is, however, something that should be acknowledged rather than denied.
It's too easy to say "it doesn't matter . . . the car accelerates 0-60 in 5.4 seconds". It's much better to understand what had to be done to accomplish that, IMO.
TagMan
100% agreement here.
TagMan
The S6 has been priced at 72K, with about $8550 available in total options. That base price is a steal compared to what a E63 or M5 can cost with options and loaded a S6 is still about 10K or so cheaper than a loaded E63 or M5. Now the RS6 is going to be 90K for sure!
M
Is it? The S6 doesn't really compete with those cars. Its more performance than the 550i and E550, but definitely less than the M5 and E63, similar to the S-type R. Its a "tween" car.
Yes this is true and Audi knows it, hence the "in between" pricing. That said I still thinks it makes a decent (if not outstanding) alternative to the AMG/M cars.
M
Don't know about Audi, since they are so miniscule in this country anyway, but I do agree that MB should prove more affected than BMW, since despite an effort (and imho some success) to be a bit more sporty, the LS remains closer in character to the S than to the 7.
Anyway, if the LS "needs to rev" it only becomes relevant, or a demerit, if the car has to get out of character (NVH) to perform the task.
That would be rather difficult, since most critics complain the LS is too "soulless" as a driving companion.
This is just another recourse for haters, trying to keep Lexus down. Side-stepping the innovation of the 8th speed, to attack the "need" for two low gears.
The current LS hits 60 in less than 6 seconds, and is as fast as the S500 was, but the Next LS will do it even faster, but will be lesser for having to "rev"?
Oh, the desperation. :sick:
I'm awaiting a true comparison tests, or my own comparison at the "Taste of Lexus" event in October, to get a sound judgement on the ascention of the Next LS.
DrFill
But I dont know what MB is thinking with the vehicle below? It is a CLS grafted on a E Class wagon. Does that mean we will we be seeing a CLS Touring wagon? Makes no sense to me expecially with AMG versions of the E Class wagon.
Autospies Link
lol . . . I was only referring to the gears. Didn't mean to be disrespectful.
This is just another recourse for haters, trying to keep Lexus down. Side-stepping the innovation of the 8th speed, to attack the "need" for two low gears.
Well, if you re-read my post or any of my other posts that relate to this, I do not believe I have expressed any hate, nor did I "attack" the "need" for the two low gears. As we ultimately look into every aspect of these HELM vehicles, particularly the new ones, it is inevitable that we will understand the different natures of the different beasts.
With all due respect, what is so "innovative" about adding yet one more speed to a transmission anyway?
If you see me being "hateful", you can call me on it, how's that sound? I am more interested in taking a close look at these vehicles for what they are and aren't, than generating any hateful spins regarding these vehicles. How 'bout you?
TagMan
Maybe they intend to drop the E-wagon?
On second glance, that car has the E-class taillights. Must be a hack job (excellently executed) somebody put together.
It seems that it may be a few of the folks on your team that are desperate. Why do you have to speculate on the 8-speed tranny that only last yeat was seen as frivilous when MB put out the 7-G.? How does the 8-Speed erase the needless 7 speed that was deemed overkill?
And to boot, why the need to brag on the handling/perf. package that Lexus is "supposed" to have this go 'round? I thought that LS buyers didn't care about those types of things? Hopefully this time around they won't leave these laughable attempts on the docks in Huro, Japan.
The 0-60 in 5.1 secs has been recorded by more than five entities, so this is not something that is made up. Take for instance my 5000 pound S600 that's on the way. MB has it getting to 60 in 4.6 secs. Well the model tested in MotoCar goes to 60 in 4 secs flat, the same the car I tested at the dealership.
The need for the LS to have 8 cogs in solely on attempt to (1) one up the supposed too-much 7-G, and (2) keep the car well in it's rev range to try and keep up with the MB's and BMW's. No matter how you cut it, the 4.6L has to be wrung out just to crack out 6.0 secs to 60. There is no replacement for displacement.
Do you know for a fact that the LS will have more room than the S-Class. For sure the LWB may prove a bit more roomy than a S, but it won't outshine a 750iL and definetely not a A8L in any dimension. The S's trunk however, is 23 cu.ft, the largest in the segment. I don' think Lexus will be topping that, even with the Bangle-esque trunk.
BTW: Why the need to pit a less powerful S450 against the S550 power matching LS460? Oh, just like that test when a S430 was pitted against the LS430? That may be the only time a LS outpaces a S550, and barely then. Keep your money, you'll need it to pay for the LS600hL.
I have a strong feeling that Allan Mually is an Edmunds member. In fact I can almost swear that I recently had a heated debate with him in this forum .
MB's website puts it at 16.3 cu ft, and the EPA puts it at 16.
Do you know for a fact that the LS will have more room than the S-Class. For sure the LWB may prove a bit more roomy than a S, but it won't outshine a 750iL and definetely not a A8L in any dimension.
Kind of typical germancarfan thinking, just blithely assuming that the Germans are on top in all respects. And no, I don't know for a fact re the LS460, which is why I used the term "likely" in my original post. Why is it likely? EPA data here show the following:
interior / trunk / total cu ft
2007 S550 109 16 125
2006 750li 105 18 123
2006 A8 L 107 15 122
2006 LS430 107 16 123
2007 LS460L ??? 18* ??? (*Lexus data, reported as being measured with EPA methodology)
So the old LS, despite being SWB, is already roomier (total cu ft) than the A8 L and as roomy as the 750Li. It doesn't take alot of imagination to believe that with an extra 5 in of legroom, the LS460L will be, as I stated, likely at least as roomy as the S550, despite being lighter in weight.
As to the MB's trunk, that is with rear a/c and 4 passenger seating with the twin buckets in rear, which reduces trunk capacity. Please post the standard dimensions next time as this has proven to be a less effective way of disproving ones point, typical Toyota likeliness.
Just so you know, the LS430 is not as roomy as any of the LWB models of the cars in it's class. The Audi has the rear seat of a limo, and the 750iL's cabin is so cavernous that it's often called "too big". This, again, is the wishful thinking of someone who is disingeneuously trying to prove a point. Please don't bring a butter knife to a machete match. This works better on the LS threads that you frequent.
I think LS 460 has the germans beat in every respect including handling.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=6&article_id=3902
WHo cares about gears and torque settings. So long as it is smoother and faster thats what matters.
I suspect that if Lexus was using a 5.5 L engine and mercedes was using 4.6L, then 4.6L would be good and 5.5L would be bad.
Talk about honesty!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
The point is that just because 2 cars have similar hp ratings doesn't mean they are equal. It seems to me that unless you really give the LS460 the boot it won't give the feeling of power that a S550 does, thats all.
What creates the fallout here is just what BH mentioned. When MB came out with their 7-speed it was deemed pointless and matterless and just a show of needless engineering and now that Lexus is going the same route of more gears for whatever reasons it is supposed to be hailed some type of gift-to-the-automobile innovation.
Truth of the matter is, except for some engine-related technologies, all of the "advancements" the LS460 brings to the table are based on existing technologies and/or the improvement of them by adding a previously unavailable feature. Some of, well no most of them done by MB a few years ago or last year with the new S and some from Toyota's own Prius.
M
When it comes to measuring interior and cargo space, I'd prefer to rely on a consistently applied quantitative methodology such as specified by EPA, rather than hearsay and subjective opinion such as 'so cavernous that it's often called "too big"'.
None of them have been at mercedes before. Mercedes will be following what Lexus innovates today.
Whether its inefficient engines, or safety technology, or driving dynamics, mercedes lacks and lags behind everywhere.
Mercedes was using and is still using 3-valve technology in its engines. Even Hyundai has moved to four.
That shows how far behind mercedes is.
First mercedes should match hyundai and then we will talk about its dreams of matching lexus, if ever.
When LS 460 was introduced, S550 became obsolete that very day. A stunning achievement for Lexus. But I am not surprised. Lexus has always been years ahead of mercedes anyway.
What mercedes could not achieve in 120 years, Lexus achieved in less than 17.
Hyundai refused to collaborate with daimler as they think its below their dignity.
One day I will write a book on german myths.
1. Superior technology
2. better handling: Thats another myth
Does anyone, more than 12 years old, care whether the slushbox has 6 or 7 or 8 gears, except to the extent it affects the actual driving experience?
And no one here, so far as I can tell, has actually driven either the new LS or S! But, by damn, my adopted marque is better than yours because I say so.
I can't believe you guys.