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High End Luxury Cars

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  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yeah it is all pretty much speculation for now. If Porsche really does offer a version of the Pana for E/5-Series prices they'll reach that 100K units a year goal in no time. Can you imagine a Porsche sedan for the price of a mere E-Class or 5-Series, going to be a riot in the Porsche showrooms, IMO.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Thanks, merc1, I enjoyed reading your views. Glad you enjoyed the event.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I'm with you. I believe Porsche should not enter the luxury marque arena.
    I think it's a mistake.
    There aren't enough people out there who will be interested.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I wouldn't have known that rear photo of the new LS wasn't that of a new Camry.
    You are correct. Lexus must get its designs as far away from Toyota as possible.
    Imagine spending $65k+ for that? Outrageous!
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I've seen the new 335i Coupe on the road a few times now and there is no way I'd take a 335i sedan over the coupe.

    I'm with you on that one. I think the new 3 is generally a good looking car, (gorgeous compared to styling abominations like the 6) but I still have some issues with certain angles. The 3 coupe on the other hand is quite sexy. It looks much less like the sedan than the old coupe.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I've seen the new 335i Coupe on the road a few times now and there is no way I'd take a 335i sedan over the coupe.

    It's like night and day, isn't it?

    Nice report. Our Taste doesn't come until Oct. 21. How do you compare the LS460 seats to the S550?
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    The 3 coupe on the other hand is quite sexy. It looks much less like the sedan than the old coupe.

    Exactly. And it's the first BMW I am trulty excited about in a while.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Yikes,

    my bad! :sick:

    Pardon my ignorance about the Lotus brand. In fact I dont ever remember seeing a Lotus around here in Toronto?

    Lotus cars are a bit too exotic for me. I am just a mainstream guy whose attention is on mainstream marques like BMW and Audi.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Good report. There has been much talk about the LS having very poor, grabby brakes. Did you notice any indication of this?

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I've seen the new 335i Coupe on the road a few times now and there is no way I'd take a 335i sedan over the coupe.

    I know the feeling, although I chose to take the 335i sedan instead. Unfortunately in my case I bought the sedan because the middle rear seating of the coupe is like sitting on a elevated park bench (one of my kids will not be too pleased if I bought a coupe).
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Understood. My car choices are handcuffed too. You get a pass. ;-)
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    There has been much talk about the LS having very poor, grabby brakes. Did you notice any indication of this?

    Not on the examples I drove and believe me the brakes were "tested" throughly. I drove the LS460L only, twice.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    It's like night and day, isn't it?

    Yep, darn near. A huge improvement over the sedan. In certain colors it looks a little thick around the mid-section, but a lot of things do in America? ;)

    For you to be excited about a new BMW design means it has to be a looker!

    M
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    "...because the middle rear seating of the coupe is like sitting on a elevated park bench (one of my kids will not be too pleased if I bought a coupe)"

    In that case you made the right decision...the rear only accommodates two passengers (no restraints)

    image
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Merc - Firstly, thank you for a great post that has clearly injected some fresh adrenaline into the board.

    When I saw the IS at the auto show, after its release, I was impressed as well. For a car of that type, I thought it was well executed.

    However, I am quite positive that I would end up a BMW buyer if purchasing a car in that segment.

    If you were a buyer choosing between the LS460L and the S550 . . . does one car truly stand out, based upon your impressions and tests of both vehicles?

    TagMan
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Hell, my 05 has what many would call "grabby" brakes. I kind of like them, once you get used to them. :surprise:
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    On the subject of grabby brakes. The 335i coupe I drove had REAL grabby brakes, so much that when I got back into my Boxster I felt like it had NO brakes. Takes some getting used to.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    When I drove the 330i in the spring of 2005, the brakes were so grabby, I immediately crossed the vehicle off my list.

    The 545 brakes on the other hand are not grabby.
    Just impossible to modulate to a nice smooth stop.
    Always a jerk at the end (not referring to me) which I find maddening.

    The next vehicle I shop will definitely have nice smooth brakes. If it is not a BMW vehicle, so be it.

    Looking forward to checking out the LS brakes when I get my "Taste" in November, although I cannot honestly see myself getting involved with this particular vehicle or the GS450h which I will also have the opportunity to drive.

    Of all the cars I have test-driven over the last 2 years, the only one that had completely acceptable brakes was the Infiniti M. The worst belonged to the 330i and the GS430.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    No restraints was the real deal killer. Otherwise I would have found a real good excuse for owning a coupe instead.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Buffett’s car goes for $73,200 on eBay
    Money will go to nonprofit organization that helps young girls

    You know the old saying: Never ever be on the other side of a transaction when dealing with Warren Buffett.

    A price of $73,200 for a used Town Car .

    Oh well at least the funds are going to a charity.

    Buffett
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Even the head of Lexus thinks the current LS430 and prior LS models was not considered by buyers as a premium luxury car (in other words a HELM)

    At Lexus for instance, Mr. Carter concedes that up until now, when wealthy customers considered their choices for premium luxury cars, "we weren't on those shopping lists" next to the segment defining Mercedes S Class and BMW 7 series

    SOURCE WALL STREET JOURNAL Sept. 25, 2006

    Ofcourse Carter claims the LS460 and the hybrid models will change things. Similar to his predictions that the Lexus GS and IS will be very competitive to the BMW 5 series and 3 series ( a highly debateable prediction at this point of time)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    When I test drove the 2005 LS, it had a very thin slippery, wooden steering wheel with an uncomfortable driver's seat. My back began to hurt after a few minutes despite the lumbar support. It had very sensitive brakes which quite a few other posters agreed with me about. The vehicle had noticeable body lean.
    Given all that, I felt it was overpriced as a HELM. I didn't feel there was much value there for the money.

    When I test drove the 545 vs the GS430, it wasn't even close:

    The GS had a slippery, thin, partially-wooden steering wheel, highly sensitive brakes, wishy-washy adaptive steering, a confining cabin, limited head room, an uncomfortable driver's seat, a ridiculously-placed utility tray containing needed switches and buttons and a very narrow trunk.

    What the GS didn't have thankfully, was an iDrive type controller. In its place was a fairly easy to use touch screen.

    I leased the driver's car, the awesome, impeccably-styled, 545 (even though the Lexus salesman came down to only a few bucks more than the BMW and people on the GS board were begging me to name the salesman).

    Just don't ask me to change from FM to AM in the BMW.
    I'm only a chemist, not a rocket scientist. :blush:
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I leased the driver's car, the awesome, impeccably-styled, 545. Just don't ask me to change from FM to AM.

    My idrive solution is to avoid listening to AM.

    Hopefully I will be able to master some functions of idrvie before I sell my car. So at least by then I can show the new owner how to handle the radio :(
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    With my baseball team in last place, my football team 0-3 and the quarterback injured beyond repair, you are right.
    There is absolutely no reason to switch to AM, which in my neck of the woods is all sports all the time. :sick:

    iDrive is okay, Dewey (aside from radio band switching) once you program your initial settings. You set it and forget it.
    There are the usual buttons and knobs on the wheel and dash that you will use after you customize the iDrive.

    One possible problem: I dread taking my vehicle in for service because I fear the dealer will disconnect the computer and I will have to input the settings all over again. Hope it has stored memory!

    Sooo..when you get your twin-turbo beauty, how about we go 10 laps around the Air Canada Centre? ;)
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Thanks, I'm glad you liked the writeup.

    If you were a buyer choosing between the LS460L and the S550 . . . does one car truly stand out, based upon your impressions and tests of both vehicles?

    Both vehicles are very impressive, but I like the sturdier feel and more buttoned down nature of the S550 more than the lightness of the LS460L. Though unlike the LS430 I can see the appeal behind the LS460L, it is a very comfortable, extremely capable car. It is so much improved over the insipid LS430 it isn't even funny.

    M
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    I did the 335 event in Houston on saturday afternoon. Much different than the Audi streets of tomorrow event. The 335 event was more driving oriented and sporty driving to say the least. Anyway, I would be like Dewey and have to go for the sedan as well, after seeing the coupe in person it's cool but has some lines that are ill-matched towards the back IMO.
    This from a guy who for the most part puts styling towards the bottom of the list.
    Their is defiantly some lag but some of this could be the automatic factor, no manuals available to spool up rpm's on launch. When it does kick in it is noticeable, but smooth. It under steers a bit, but I'm sure that's a little bit of a set up thing for safety. They had G35's to compare directly against. These under steered like a [insert comment] I should have checked the tires to see if they were unevenly matched but I forgot to look.
    Anyway, BMW seems to do the "look how awesome our cars are"
    Where Audi is saying, "look how classy our company is" some of that is marketing I'm sure. The Q7 is for families and the 335 coupe is for single guys. None the less, two different days, both entertaining.
    I will be at the Lexus "taste" next month and will post
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Even the head of Lexus thinks the current LS430 and prior LS models was not considered by buyers as a premium luxury car (in other words a HELM)

    Well this goes back to what I and others have said for years here, going just by the price and look of the old car it wasn't a true helm. It regularly sold for V8 E-Class/5-Series prices or a little above them, not S-Class or 7-Series prices, but that couldn't ever be accepted by the faithful. Well since things have changed here you won't get the usual go-behind and reinforcement of everything a Lexus official says, especially not this.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    How do you compare the LS460 seats to the S550?

    Sorry, didn't see this question before. I'd say the LS460's seats are about the same from what I can remember, I do know they aren't the same flat chairs of the LS430. They both seem to have a ton of adjustments.

    M
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Perhaps the reference is to the long-wheelbase versions of S and 7? Lexus only had a short-wheelbase offering previously.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    how about we go 10 laps around the Air Canada

    Only when Toronto's traffic control officers go on strike. ;)
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Well, my 05 LS may not be a HELM, have good seats and a fat sticky steering wheel, admitted has some body roll and the brakes are grabby, and but I can switch from FM to AM 4 different ways, by voice, on the steering wheel, or on the actual radio panel, or the touch screen. No I-drive, no waiting. There is something to be said for that.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Their is defiantly some lag but some of this could be the automatic factor, no manuals available to spool up rpm's on launch.

    My first 335i test drive was with a manual and I had difficulty noticing any turbo lag. My second test drive was with a automatic and the lag I felt was very subtle (hardly noticeable).

    Surprisingly I was even impressed with the automatic 335i. Not as impressive as the DSG tranny in the Audi A3, but good enough.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Perhaps the reference is to the long-wheelbase versions of S and 7? Lexus only had a short-wheelbase offering previously.

    That may very well be the case. But apparently most Lexus fans here felt their SWB LS was comparable or even superior to the S and 7. Carter, the head spin-doctor of Lexus thinks otherwise.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    So when a Lexus official is hyping the New LS by saying the old one wasn't a HELM, in comparison, you are betting the farm on it.

    And when a Lexus official says the IS is a 3-series competitor, you can't wait to ignore that?

    Can you make the line any squigglier?

    DrFill
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    If someone cross-shopped the LS430 before buying an S or 7, wouldn't the LS be a HELM to that person? If they cross-shopped the LS430 before buying a E or 5, then maybe the LS wasn't a HELM to that person, but was whatever class of car you want to call the E or 5.

    The autorags tended to do comparos that lumped the LS430 into the same class as the S and 7. Wouldn't that make the LS430 a HELM in their eyes?

    If the LS430 wasnt't a HELM, was the S320/350 also not a HELM?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Dr. Fill,

    I am just quoting Carter himself.

    Carter hyped the IS, GS and the upcoming SWB/LWB/hybrid LS. There is nothing here to squiggle or to straighten here.

    He is paid to hype. His views on older LS models are more sincere since he is not paid to hype older LS models.

    Based on his previous press conferences on the introductions of the IS and GS ,I have learned to take his words about the upcoming LS with a grain of salt.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Syswei,

    you should send your letter to the top guy at Lexus!

    Carter himself thinks 7 and S shoppers have paid little attention to the LS. Carter and German Car Fans seem to share the same opinion. Is that mere coincidence? I dont think so.

    Reality Bites!
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Well, my 05 LS may not be a HELM, have good seats and a fat sticky steering wheel, admitted has some body roll and the brakes are grabby, and but I can switch from FM to AM 4 different ways, by voice, on the steering wheel, or on the actual radio panel, or the touch screen. No I-drive, no waiting. There is something to be said for that.

    Good point, but those features are now fairly common. Consider that even a Honda Civic can now do the same thing.

    The original iDrive's complexity has been well-known and apparently will be addressed with the next version. We'll see, and keep our fingers crossed.

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Yes there is indeed something to be said for that.
    I just want to switch from FM to AM one way without having to audit a graduate computer science course.
    BMW has to change this. There has been a unanimous collective cry from everybody who has reviewed the 5 and 7 series to the many unhappy consumers enduring this major blemish on these otherwise very fine vehicles.
    At the very least, iDrive and the radio should be made mutually exclusive.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    This is ridiculous. Let's not twist that executive's true meaning.

    BY COMPARISON, is the point. The new LS460 is so much better than the LS430 (from the perspective of Lexus), that the LS430 is paled by comparison. Only in that spirit, does it (the LS430) become less of a HELM.

    Before the LS460 became a reality, the LS430 was still a reasonable achievement by Lexus. It's just that the LS460 is so much better. The point (with the LS460) is "now we've arrived".

    The LS430 has certainly qualified to be a HELM, and any suggestion otherwise is BS, or else such a suggestion can only have merit as a rhetorical means to illuminate the greatness of the LS460 by comparison (not by my opinion, mind you).

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    really knows if the LS460 is better than the LS430 until each of us test drives each of these vehicles and can then speak from experience.

    I have driven the 2005 LS430 and have been disappointed.
    I will drive the LS460 in November at one of the "Taste" events.
    I remember quite vividly what turned me off about the 2005 LS430 and I will definitely be able to tell if the new one is better.
    I look forward to the experience and I sincerely hope the LS460 is a better vehicle.
    (I do hope they got rid of that annoying lag when stepping on the accelerator).
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Well none of us really knows if the LS460 is better than the LS430

    Sorry, but I don't find it hard to say at this point that the LS460 is probably better, based upon all the feedback so far.

    I'm certainly not forming any major "in-stone" personal opinions about the vehicle yet, because I am reserving my final opinions until I have put the car through the paces. But, I'll pretty much bet the ranch that this LS460 is an improvement over the outgoing LS430. At the same token, I am not expecting it to be giant leaps beyond the previous car.

    The point I made earlier was that the Lexus engineers and executives certainly without hesitation think the vehicle is much, much better, and it was in that spirit of comparison between the new and improved LS460L and the outgoing LS430, that the statement was made to suggest that the LS430 was not up to snuff. Only by comparison.

    BTW, did I misunderstand merc's post, or did he indicate that the LS460L is an improved car compared to the LS430, in his opinion, of course, which was based upon test driving, which you say none of us has done? :P

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    So when a Lexus official is hyping the New LS by saying the old one wasn't a HELM, in comparison, you are betting the farm on it.

    Nope, just saying that it backs up what I've said about LS430 all along, it played in the HELM space in size, but not in price (or styling) which is why all that sales nonsense we've had to hear about all these years was just that nonsense. You should be asking your fellow Lexus fans why they aren't here to shout and give amens to what a Lexus official says, they do any other time.

    And when a Lexus official says the IS is a 3-series competitor, you can't wait to ignore that?

    Not my issue, talk to guys on the ELLPS board, they'll tell you that the IS isn't even close to the 3-Series. I'm not as hardcore as those guys, how could I be when I'm a Benz fan, the land of very few manuals!

    I think the IS is definitely a competitor to the 3-Series, but until they get the suspension tunning right and give it that manual to please the shifting crowd it won't be seen as one to those guys, but me personally I like the IS350, but I wouldn't try to go over there and float the idea of it being superior to a G35 or 335i as a sports sedan.

    Please don't talk to me about squiggly lines, that is the official practice of your camp! They switch allegiances every month depending on what type of review a Lexus gets!

    I can't help it if Lexus' folks are starting to become like GM's people by making comments about their upcoming models that don't hold water, i.e. the GS vs. 5-Series.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Exactly. Yet when a Lexus offical says that the end-all from Lexus is coming, it is supposed to be taken as gospel, now one slips and says something not in line with all the previous rhetoric and it can't be accepted and/or MB has to be brought up.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well none of us really knows if the LS460 is better than the LS430 until each of us test drives each of these vehicles and can then speak from experience.

    Well I've driven the LS460L and I can tell you it is way better than the LS430. It doesn't exactly keel over in corners like the LS430 did, it has better seats, it even looks much better in LWB form. It has a gang more features, accelerates like it is powered by hydraulics, and is roomier. It is a stunning improvement over the previous car, there I said it. Bias, what bias?

    However if you're expecting it to drive like a BMW then you're going to be letdown, it is luxury cruiser first and it really doesn't pretend to be anything else IMO.

    M
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    730 hp and gorgeous.

    image

    image

    Some of us appreciate these things. :)

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Stunning! Looks like something an evil vilan in a cartoon would drive.

    M
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Dewey - Is this it?

    image

    C&D says 0-60 in 4.8 seconds with the stick!

    Heck with any child seats . . . better get helmets for the rest of the family.

    link title

    Congratulations again.

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The next M3 really has some work to do in topping the "regular" 3-Series models.

    M
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The next M3 really has some work to do in topping the "regular" 3-Series models.

    The regular 3 is now truly awesome.

    I believe the next M3 will pack a V-8, yes?

    TagMan
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