High End Luxury Cars

tagman · October 2006

In fact it may have more to do with the stigma of hatchbacks in the USA than with price.

Certainly a small car doesn't have to be a hatchback, as most small cars on the market prove. An exception to this might be the Prius, which is a hatchback of all things, but its appeal as a hybrid most likely overshadows the strange body design of that car anyway.

I'm convinced MB could make a terrific small car that consumers would gobble up, if as reality2 put it so well, they design it in a way that they stay with the manufacturer's core values, and I must emphasize that the car would benefit from very attractive styling, IMO.

Anyway, sounds like MB has made a mistake here, IMO, and is leaving the small car segment to the Japanese and domestics.

They are leaving significant $$$$ on the table, IMO. But, it's a mute point, since it's not going to happen.

TagMan

lexusguy · October 2006

A BMW M5 offered solely with a SMG transmission had triggered a major slushbox revolt. A non-manual M6 model without any revolt proves that BMW fans have become somewhat slushbox-pacified.

I'm not sure thats true. I think its due to much lower interest in the M6. It costs a lot more than the M5, and you don't get a lot for your money.

reality2 · October 2006

Thanks...I'm looking forward to giving my driving impressions as soon as they let me have him.

dewey · October 2006

For all you Audi R8 fans here here is some interesting info:

Thanks to a devoted reader we have our hands on a marketing document marked 'internal use only'. It includes some new information and additional colors that the Audi R8 Microsite does not. The document also lists a few key dates of items we can expect.
October 6 - R8 Q&A As Published on Desktop
October - PDF Pricing and specification guides will be available on http://audi.co.uk
October - Pricing and specification guides delivered into Centres
May/June 2007 - Customer Deliveries
Exterior Color Options Are:
Ibis White
Brilliant Red
Ice Silver, Metallic
Jet Blue, Metallic
Daytona Grey, Pearl Effect
Monterey Green, Pearl Effect
Mugello Blue, Pearl Effect
Phantom Black, Pearl Effect
With corresponding sideblade colors of:
Ice Silver
Brilliant Red
Apollo Silver
Ice Silver
Quartz Grey
Deep Green
Night Blue Side Blade
Lava Grey Side Blade
With two optional sideblade colors for each exterior color:
Oxygen Silver
Carbon Sigma
Please click the thumbnails for full size images

Link to actual copies of these internal documents (they're at the bottom of the web page):

R8 Documents

merc1 · October 2006

Thanks to everyone for the comments on the Peugeot 908 RC concept. Going by the comments posted, I think that you all seem to like the car somewhat just as I do. Interestingly, no one called it hideous or awful looking! I think the French could make it big here being different, but they would have to get with the program when it comes to reliability.

Did I mention that Alfa-Romeo comes back in 2008? Another charismatic, but historically troubled, brand.

Mercedes' C230 didn't make here in the U.S. for several reasons. For one hatchbacks have a negative stigma in the U.S. that not even the Mercedes-Benz name can overcome, that combined with the fact that the C230 "Coupe" wasn't sporty enough dynamically did it in. It was also a poor value for the money spent. People in this country consider Mercedes a luxury brand first and foremost, unlike the utilitarian/luxury image Mercedes has nearly everywhere else in the world. Mercedes builds and sells buses, garbage trucks, Unimogs and everything else on wheels (except motorcycles) in Europe, yet a S600 or SL55 AMG is still seen as prestigious, while an A200t sits next to it in the showroom. America is far to image driven to allow that here for Mercedes-Benz. Now some say Audi made it with the A3, but the A3 isn't a 3-door hatch like the C230 and BMW 318ti were, it is a 5-door hatch with some real utility and, and, and Audi' image isn't quite up to BMW's or Mercedes' in this country. Like it or not (I don't) Audi is still associated with VW to a lot of consumers so Audi can get away with a "hatch" before BMW and especially MB can. Change the badge to "Mini", give it go-cart dynamics and poof(!) you have a hit!

When BMW does import the 1-Series here it will be done as a sedan/coupe/convertible, not the hatch that has been running around Europe for over a year now. It is far too ugly anyway, IMO. The other 1-Series variants are going to be in the spirit of the E36 3-Series (1992-1998) or at least I hope it is. Pure.

It is far easier for BMW to bake "sport" into a cheaper vehicle than it is to bake in E or S-Class virtues into a cheaper vehicle. The C230 didn't provide the sport, which would have made it different and "fun" and it surely didn't provide an E-Class or even enough C-Class sedan experience either. Nobody wants to drive a stodgy hatchback, it needs to be sporty or luxurious enough to validate it being stodgy.

M

reality2 · October 2006

I think the success of the A3 is more to do with Audi's stylish and "in" image in this segment. The A3 is somewhat an icon, especially in Europe, due to the S3 and the like. Prestige has a different meaning in the 20-30 year old segment that is attracted to the A3 around the world. Audi definitely has that GenX and Yuppie 'aura' going on quite nicely that MB and BMW to lesser extent lack. Prestige is for "old men" more or less and is not substantive to quality or depth to this generation (or to anyone for that matter)...or as the studies have pointed out. As I did not read the studies first hand, an automotive survey found Audi highly popular and desirable in this segment.

tagman · October 2006

It is far easier for BMW to bake "sport" into a cheaper vehicle than it is to bake in E or S-Class virtues into a cheaper vehicle.

Maybe, but easy isn't the question. The current C-Class is Mercedes' largest seller. That says enough to know that you can bake a little E and S-Class into a cheaper vehicle. It's basically been done and proven with the C-Class.

The market is ripe enough to go one "Class" lower, IMO, if done well.

TagMan

merc1 · October 2006

That may be so, but that image you speak of is tied to VW, nothing really do with Audi's image in the lower segment, IMO. There really isn't a premium hatchback segment to speak of here like in Europe, the only other car in the A3's segment is the Mini. The Mini, IMO is a totally different type of car though, it trades looks and dynamics and the sheer "cuteness" factor. The A3 I think makes it on style to a degree (lord knows it looks better than anyting BMW or MB have done with hatches here), but imporantly I think it makes it on utility, again IMO.

M

merc1 · October 2006

Maybe, but easy isn't the question. The current C-Class is Mercedes' largest seller. That says enough to know that you can bake a little E and S-Class into a cheaper vehicle.

True, they could but then you'd be at the price a regular C-Class sedan. The C hatch needed to be sporty like other hatches to succeed. If one wants some E or S-Class in a C-C they're going to go to sedan not a hatchback.

I hope Mercedes never imports another C-Class hatchback to the U.S. or anything lower than a C-Class sedan, preferably with 6 cylinders. If Mercedes is seen as premium in this country then it has to act like that, they made their bed so now they have to lay in it sorta speak.

Mercedes simply doesn't do cheap well. Every single time they try they mess it up. Witness the first generation ML, the W220 S-Class (especially from 2000-2002), the C hatchback. Notice how their upper level cars dominate, S-Class, SL etc. Notice how just the opposite is true for BMW, neither company can beat the other at opposite ends.

M

merc1 · October 2006

Lutz: U.S. gov't should force gas prices up

General Motors vice chairman Bob Lutz said the U.S. government should gradually increase taxation on gasoline to force consumers into smaller, more efficient cars. "I'd say the best thing the (U.S.) government can do is to raise the gas tax by 10 or 15 cents a year until it reaches European levels," Mr. Lutz told the Wall Street Journal at the Paris Motor Show.

"In Europe people buy $30,000 Golfs," Lutz said. "People are willing to pay lots of money for extremely well equipped, fuel-efficient cars." Lutz said higher gas prices would help accelerate the transition to alternative fuels and cleaner forms of propulsion.

Lutz also says he thinks Americans have learned their lesson about buying fuel-thirsty vehicles, even if gas prices fall well below $2.00 later this year. "Three months from now if gas is $1.60 a gallon, people are not going to go rushing out to buy 400 horsepower SUVs," he said. "People now have understood the concept of volatility. People will hedge their bets."

This from a man who heads up the same company that depends on suvs and large pickups for their survival! This is said as GM gets ready to roll out their most important vehicles of all, full-size pickups! What am I missing here? Lutz needs to retire, he has officially lost it. Toyota has finally made him crack up. He would change his tune very quickly if the new large utes all of sudden stopped selling and the new full size pickups flopped. Uh...Lutz, GM doesn't have enough small cars or enough that people would even want to buy in order to offset the sales losses if the Feds did what you're asking! Hello earth to Yutz? You're calling for buyers to revert to the vehicles with the slimmest profit margins at a time when GM is dying?

M

designman · October 2006

Have you seen the GM TV ad currently running that says 90% of their cars get at least 30 mpg highway?

dewey · October 2006

Yes!

And I dont think we will ever see a GM Ad boasting about their Truck/SUV MPG figures for city driving.

dewey · October 2006

This from a man who heads up the same company that depends on suvs and large pickups for their survival! This is said as GM gets ready to roll out their most important vehicles of all, full-size pickups! What am I missing here?

The answer to your question could be the Sequel. The gas-alternative route seems to be GM's new Crusade. I just hope GM will live up to its hype.

SOURCE: FORTUNE Sept. 20th, 2006

The Sequel, GM (Charts) immodestly proposes, is the greatest leap forward since Karl Benz rolled out his gasoline-powered three-wheel bicycle in 1886. "GM has reinvented the automobile," brags Larry Burns, vice president of R&D.

The Sequel is a genuinely bold and innovative engineering achievement. DaimlerChrysler (Charts) and Toyota (Charts) have put a few fuel-cell buses in service, and Honda (Charts) has leased one fuel-cell-powered car, but GM has gone farther than any of its rivals to develop a car that burns no gas, produces no harmful emissions--and that normal people wouldn't mind driving.

It has already invested $1 billion in the program and might spend another billion before it gets a fuel-cell car into mass production. After losing $10.6 billion in 2005, it is a wonder that the company can afford it. But GM vice chairman Bob Lutz is so enthusiastic that he is willing to delay conventional new models to get a fuel-cell car into production. "It's a game changer," Lutz says

Honda and BMW are both experimenting with liquid hydrogen as a fuel for conventional engines; BMW announced it is putting 100 hydrogen-fueled cars on the road next year. GM's is a fundamentally different bet, leapfrogging past traditional engines altogether.

No wonder Lutz wants the government to impose hefty gas taxes. He is very worried that by the time Sequel is introduced gas prices will drop to about $1.20 a gallon and GM will have to pull the plug on the Sequel.

lexusguy · October 2006

Uh...Lutz, GM doesn't have enough small cars or enough that people would even want to buy in order to offset the sales losses if the Feds did what you're asking! Hello earth to Yutz? You're calling for buyers to revert to the vehicles with the slimmest profit margins at a time when GM is dying?

Quite. They would be handing whatever marketshare they have left to Japan and Korea. Their Daewoos aren't competitive in the ultra compact space.

tagman · October 2006

This from a man who heads up the same company that depends on suvs and large pickups for their survival! This is said as GM gets ready to roll out their most important vehicles of all, full-size pickups! What am I missing here?

What are you missing?

Well, with all due respect to you, one of our great posters, let me just say that I see this as nothing more than PR, pure and simple.

It's the same as the tobacco companies' ads which suggest that smokers should stop smoking.

Do you believe them? And you know it's PR?

Don't believe Lutz, either.

TagMan

dewey · October 2006

This has to be the worst 48 hours I have ever experienced in terms of HELM news. I cant find any news from media/web sites worth posting here.

Oh well at least there is always tomorrow or after-tomorrow.

merc1 · October 2006

Have you seen the GM TV ad currently running that says 90% of their cars get at least 30 mpg highway? +

No I can't say that I remember seeing that one. Interesting though. Lutz still doesn't realize what he is talking about though because most small GM cars are crap next to the competition and when people thing MPG they run to Honda and Toyota small cars, not GM's.

M

merc1 · October 2006

Well, with all due respect to you, one of our great posters, let me just say that I see this as nothing more than PR, pure and simple.

Do you believe them? And you know it's PR?

Of course Tag, I'm just shocked by it! Especially when GM has so much riding on their new pickups this fall. Maybe he should keep quiet for a while. Dewey's post on this is very interesting though!

M

tagman · October 2006

Of course Tag, I'm just shocked by it! Especially when GM has so much riding on their new pickups this fall. Maybe he should keep quiet for a while. Dewey's post on this is very interesting though!

Yes, I like Dewey's post. . . and regarding the Sequel, just maybe Lutz is actually a visionary, and instead of jumping all over him, we'll all be praising him down the road. Who knows? Either way, he's got a tough job ahead.

TagMan

houdini1 · October 2006

I guess Mr. Lutz should get out of the car biz and get into politics!!

blkhemi · October 2006

I'm sorry for neglecting my fellow brethern, but I've just got done doing a 100-mile blast in the new S8.

First things first: THIS CAR IS A AWESOME. Very few cars nowadays can make me say that, but this is one of the few.

The shorter by 5" wheelbase really makes this hi-po car what it is. Like I've related before, it's not as edgy as an M or RS car, and not as punchy as the higher-echelon AMG 55 and 65's, but it will flat out roll with the best of them, all the while not sending you to the chiropractor in the process.

For 100 large, this definetely the bargin of the big cars, particularly now that all AMG's push north of 100k , whereas last year you could get an S55 for 90+k.

I did have reservations about the ultra-low 35 series tires, but the 4-position air-suspension has the perfect settings. And with my W12 boasting 20" wheels with the Sport-pkg, so the ride harshness is nil.

The interior is the usual Audi pace-setting standard, with no detail overlooked.

On one note: This the first German car I've had since my 911 that actually "barks" upon cold start-up. Exhilarating to say the least.

Also, when I came to pick up the car, I asked could I get a matching R8, and the owner said how long do I have? I replied how long is long? He said well you can be put on the wait list in 3 years, so figure 5 for the car....

blkhemi · October 2006

GM, the car company with the worst CAFE standards in the industry, doesn't have room to talk about raising the cost of gas, particularly since that owner that wasn't worried much about the cost of fuel that bought that new '00 Surburban wants a new '07 only to find out that it'll cost him more in fuel than what the car payment is.

Or the fact that the Northstar-powered Caddy DTS and Buick Lucerne is in fact slower to 60, clumisier, and less reliable and sporty than a comparable Avalon 3.5L V6, yet the Avalon acheives 31 hwy. MPG, whilr offering 6 sec. flat 0-60 and a 270hp motor.

Or the fact that the Pontiac Solstice, as small as it is, got a lowsy 16mpg in the city in 3 different publication's tests.

Or the fact that it's old-as-dinosaurs minivans get worst mileage than the ancient but reigning champ Chrysler twins, but they all are behind the most powerful Honda

Fuel and GM in the same sentence? Get oudahere.

Once, I was behind the GM renaissance with the rebirth of the Camaro, the all-RWD Pontiacs, the RWD Impala's, and the total re-emergence of Caddy(again). And replete with an awesome truck line, fuel should've been the last thing that came out of that dinosaur's mouth..........

dhamilton · October 2006

just because GM says they sell so many cars that get x amount of fuel economy doesn't mean they do. Let's give credit where credit is due. This guy is the head of the company that is answering the questions that only guys like Rockylee is asking. My wife [a doctor] says that there are kinds of tumors that when pressed against a specific part of the brain will force that individual to say anything on their mind with no common sense, or socially acceptable filter. Clutz errrr Lutz has a career as a comedian.
Now, on to more important subjects. Blkhemi, pictures please, and then more pictures. Your posting my favorite kind of car porn, the kind with four rings

tagman · October 2006

Lutz is a klutz

Well who knows? BTW, congratulations on your new ride!

So sad, that GM's in the ruts.
Hey, let's all just blame Mister Lutz.
And tell the world he's only a klutz.
While with GM he will tinker and futz,
Sell more gas-guzzlers? He's gotta be nuts!
A loser, this Lutz?, Some say he's a putz!
Is it time for less benefits and time for job cuts?
Think the Sequel and fuel-cells can solve all, Mister Lutz?
Well of this I am certain . . .right now to be Lutz, and get GM out of the ruts,
Means our dear Mister Lutz will have to have guts.
'Cause Toyota is lurking ... No if's, and's, or but's!

Sorry guys, I'm not the best poet, but I couldn't resist!

TagMan

merc1 · October 2006

You've noticed that too huh.

M

dhamilton · October 2006

with a certain someone on the monthly car mag rag?

dewey · October 2006

What surprises me Merc is that the Fortune article actually stirred me to feel a pulse. No GM article has ever done that before.

I think I am the sole forum member here who finds Lutz's fuel cell bet as admirable. Four years hence we are going to find out if Lutz will become the greatest automotive visionary in the 21st century or the greatest buffoon in the 21st century.

GM history is riddled with timidity ( see the movie "Who Killed the Electric Car") And now Lutz is willing to bet the bank on a very disruptive and a uncertain technology. At least we can say that Lutz is not timid.

Here is a link to that Fortune article:

GM SEQUEL

dewey · October 2006

Sorry guys, I'm not the best poet, but I couldn't resist!

But you certainly are reputed to be among the best automobile poets in this HELM forum. I think your lyrics could be used for an upcoming musical about GM.

tagman · October 2006

I think I am the sole forum member here who finds Lutz's fuel cell bet as admirable. Four years hence we are going to find out if Lutz will become the greatest automotive visionary in the 21st century or the greatest buffoon in the 21st century.

sole forum member? . . . read my earlier post 19444.

TagMan

dewey · October 2006

Oops!

OK let me make a correction. At least there are only two members on this planet who respects Lutz's fuel cell vision

tagman · October 2006

This is what I call The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly.

According to Forbes:

U.S. automakers released sluggish September sales results Tuesday, while Toyota continued to gain market share against its U.S. competitors after posting another month of solid sales.

Of the three major auto manufacturers, Ford Motor (nyse: F - news - people ) was the only one to post sales growth in September. On Tuesday, its overall September U.S. sales were up 5%, year-over-year, while car sales were up 26% on strong demand for the Ford Fusion, Mercury Milan, Lincoln MKZ and Mustang models. Truck sales were down 5% despite higher sales of Ford's F-Series pickups, Explorer and Expedition sport utility vehicles, reversing recent sales trends.

Ford stock rose about 1.6% on the news.

DaimlerChrysler (nyse: DCX - news - people ) and General Motors (nyse: GM - news - people ), on the other hand, posted declining year-over-year sales growth.

DaimlerChrysler reported a 2% year-over-year decline in September U.S. auto sales to 188,761 units. The Chrysler Group  the U.S. unit of the German automaker that includes the Chrysler, Jeep and Dodge brandsposted a decrease of 4% to 168,888 vehicles. General Motors, the world's largest automaker, said its total U.S. September sales declined 6.8% from the same month last year. The company also revised down its fourth-quarter North American production forecast by 20,000 units to 1.11 million vehicles. Analysts had expected GM, which is in talks with Nissan (nasdaq: NSANY - news - people ) and Renault about forming a global alliance, to announce flat sales.

Meanwhile, Toyota Motor (nyse: TM - news - people )once againshowed the biggest surge in monthly sales, which were up 25% to 222,950 units from last year.

Nissan Motors posted a 5.6% year-over-year decline to 88,340 vehicles, while Honda (nyse: HMC - news - people )'s sales fell 4.1% to 116,226.

Overall, the Street had estimated an adjusted annual sales rate for September of about 16.6 million to 16.8 million vehicles, up from 16.5 million in September 2005.

BTW, Mercedes sales were up 13%!!

Considering the Toyota onslaught . . . gosh . . . do THAT many people read Consumer Reports?

TagMan

blkhemi · October 2006

"Considering the Toyota onslaught....gosh.....do THAT many people read Consumer Reports?"

Considering that a group of folks that post here thinks that everything that CR touches is gold, well the new MB S-Class must be the most precious metal yet to be discovered, considering the super strong demand it still holds, even with the LS due to be released any minute now.

The same goes for the GL class also, which September has been it's greatest month with over 4k of these babies being moved, huge news for any $50k vehicle.

On the flipside, the General has definetely got to get in gear in order to get back on the right side of the tracks. One, don't try to sell people an Impala and tell them that it's leaps and bounds ahead of a Camry, Accord, or even Sonata, when it's platform dates back to the '89 Pontiac GP.

Secondly, DON'T REST ON THE LAURELS OF PICK-UPS AND SUVS!!! At one point or another, an "it" has to be in order. And not just a Vette, but a car that shocks not only the US, but the world, as witnessed by the still-in-style Chrysler LX-platformed cars.

And lastly, don't just do nice concepts. Come through with the real thing. Some posters on this board ask why we G-Car fans are so fascinated by them. This is one reason why as the Germans make concepts, 2 years later you will be driving them.

dewey · October 2006

Toyota without a doubt is the best managed auto company in the world today.

Great company to write a business case study about. But still I cant seem to find one Toyota/Lexus that they produce in which I would want to buy right now.

ljflx · October 2006

Amazing. I guess title doesn't transfer until the cars are in port so we are not seeing anything on LS sales until next month. Shipments from the factory will never be made public and next months sales will now be inflated in all likelihood.

Tag - Lexus continues to be up significantly in general and substantially in cars vs last yaer and BMW sales are down now for the 3rd or 4th consecutive month. Your argument is gaining momentum quickly in my book. Lot of 3 series cvonverts to the IS in my dealership.

blkhemi · October 2006

"But still I can't seem to find one Toyota/Lexus that they produce in which I would want to buy right now."

I'm the same way with this one Dewey. True, the Camry has finally been given some curves. The LS has now gotten serious about taking on Europe. The RX is still a class-competitor, despite an onslaught of new comp. And the IS has given a lot of folks something to think about.

But, is it enough? With the S. Koreans matching Toyota [non-permissible content removed]-for-tat in quality and owner satisfaction. With many automakers matching them in reliability now(especially the domestics). And now with the competition now exceeding them in product development, despite their leadership in hybrid technology. With all of this, there is still work left to do. There is nothing that screams "this is "the" car".

But before the selected folks fly off of the handle, this is not intended to start another Edmunds warzone in the battle between "them and us". Just a matter of facts....

tagman · October 2006

There is nothing that screams "this is "the" car".

I completely understand and tend to agree, from a personal standpoint.

But . . . WOW . . . there sure must be a LOT of folks who seem to think a Toyota is "THE" car.

One reason, IMO, is that Toyotas are purchased more for their reliable utilitarian nature, and many of us on this forum purchase cars with a bunch more passion for design, dynamics, and performance.

Additionally, run the demographics of the American consumers, and it starts to make sense. There is a reasonable limit to the disposable income typically available for cars. Lots of people need (or just plain want) dependable reliable transportation. That simply translates into Toyota for a LOT of people.

TagMan

justinstaford · October 2006

Is this forum for discussing LS? Why are there so many posts on IS then? :confuse:

ljflx · October 2006

We've discussed it verbatim. That's why there's almost 3,000 posts on a car that is still unreleased. If you have news that none of us have discussed please share it. In the meantime most of us that post regularly have done a lot to figure out pricing, features, option packages and supply of this new LS. With no new news to discuss, and the lack of sales data with todays news release is more evidence of the lack of news, we are bound to veer a bit off topic occasionally.

pablo_l · October 2006

> .. One reason, IMO, is that Toyotas are purchased more
> for their reliable utilitarian nature ...

Many of them, but Toyota's Prius, for one, has achieved utter hipness status in the Bay Area. There's a wait for the things. And Toyota's do command a certain permium over directly comparable cars, given their reputation for being build solidly etc. I wouldn't want one, but I think the brand image is actually excellent, as is Lexus'.

I think attacking any of these cars on associated brands' "perception" is a losing exercise.

I do make enough to basically get any car I want, and honestly right now I don't see anything that truly appeals to me in the market. My wife's an MB brand freak, why I don't know, her ML was a huge and disastrous fiasco, and of course she went and got another one. The irrationality of it all.

The only cars that ultimately warrant irrational passion are true sportscars, and especially classics. Sedans? Luxurious and extremely refined as they are, I don't think any sedan really represents a very passionate car choice, but that is just me.

All the cars discussed in this topic are
- extremely comfortable and refined
- superb expressions of sedan design
but on the other hand they also are not
- a true driving enthusiast's wet dream

As to which one is "better"... the only thing that counts is "better for someone with a specific taste and specific priorities". Rational absolutes will miss the mark there...

mickyl · October 2006

I have been shopping online for a 2007 S550. This car has about 9,500 miles, and the owner has piled up the mileage in 1 month. Now, the car came with Active Body Control, premium package II, panorama sunroof, some other small added options, and 20'' chrome wheels.

Now, I tried to look at the bluebook value for the car and I couldn't find any.

Does anyone feel this is a good deal? Any comment will be greatly appreciated.

dewey · October 2006

I don't think any sedan really represents a very passionate car choice, but that is just me.

If you cant feel passion driving a Audi RS4 sedan or a BMW M5 then I can guarantee you that you will find little passion in a sports car.

My wife's an MB brand freak, why I don't know

Maybe you should find out why before calling your wife a brand freak. Apparently everyone who drives a luxury car is not a brand freak.

her ML was a huge and disastrous fiasco, and of course she went and got another one.

If I had an such a disaster I would not buy one myself. Fortunately I've owned German luxury/performance cars for decades without such disasters.

As I said before there is not a single Toyota/Lexus out there that I find compelling in terms of wanting one. The only reason I would buy a Toyota/Lexus is if I had your wife's MB ML experiences.

Apparently there are many car buyers who have had sour grape experiences with their cars and as a result are using CR magazines as a car buying bible. As Tagman had pointed out the majority of Americans appear to be strongly swayed by CR stats.

dewey · October 2006

Does anyone feel this is a good deal? Any comment will be greatly appreciated

A deal is not a deal unless you disclose to us the price?

hpowders · October 2006

"Not a single Toyota/Lexus out there that I find compelling."

I have to agree with Dewey.

I will probably cancel my "Taste of Lexus" invite for November based on my disappointing previous experience with Lexus test drives and the rather mixed reviews of the LS460 and GS450h that I have seen.

May sound crazy, but I'd take the Accord EX V-6 over either of them (so long as I can still keep my 545) and somehow try to work through the loss of not having the car park itself.

dewey · October 2006

Your argument is gaining momentum quickly in my book. Lot of 3 series cvonverts to the IS in my dealership

Maybe in your dealership :confuse:

But currently BMW 3 series USA sales are up double digits compared to September MTD and YTD 2005 figures :shades:

tagman · October 2006

I will probably cancel my "Taste of Lexus" invite for November based on my disappointing previous experience with Lexus test drives and the rather mixed reviews of the LS460 and GS450h that I have seen.

Whoa, powders.

Don't give up your opportunity to see for yourself. You remember your recent post when you argued that nobody really knows what the LS460 is like until they drive it themselves?

Besides, some of us will want to know your impressions.

TagMan

tagman · October 2006

As Tagman had pointed out the majority of Americans appear to be strongly swayed by CR stats.

As usual I enjoy most of your posts.

I just want to clarify the point I had made. I indicated that a LOT of American consumers (I do not know if it is the majority, but I do know it is a large number) are clearly influenced by the publication, particularly with regards to the reliability ratings, and therefore one reason that Toyota sales are so strong.

You are correct that CR is a huge influence. Absolutely.

TagMan

tagman · October 2006

Your argument is gaining momentum quickly in my book. Lot of 3 series cvonverts to the IS in my dealership.

Thanks, but let me clarify.

I think the new 3-Series should do quite well, and even improve in year-to-year sales figures, but the IS will still take some market share. Where else would it mostly come from? So, in that regard the Lexus IS will convert a fair number of otherwise 3-Series sales, even if 3-Series sales climb.

I am still watching the GS to see if it will have much impact. I am just not that convinced.

The LS460, however, WILL take market share from the 7-Series, IMO. Of course, it will also take market share from the S-Class, but that is another discussion.

My prediction hasn't changed. Lexus will increasingly take market share from BMW. That's how I see it.

TagMan

ljflx · October 2006

Completely agree. The 3 gained but the market expanded and the 3-series share of that market is a now lower, actually noticably lower, than 12 months ago. We're both talking the same language.

dewey · October 2006

My prediction hasn't changed. Lexus will increasingly take market share from BMW. That's how I see it.

Is that so?

Prove it!

It will be more appropriate to discuss this matter in the HELM forum. I dont want to disrupt the LS discussion here.

cyclone4 · October 2006

He gave you his opinion and reasoning. How in the world can he prove this now? It will be proven or disproven months from now by studying the sales figures at that time.

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