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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • wahoo2003wahoo2003 Member Posts: 4
    As a 22 year old, I can say that I would never choose Cadillac over BMW, Lexus or even MB! My parents own brand new 2003 MDX and ES300 and I m quite certain that I would snatch up our MDX over our other vehicle, ES300. But if we owned new Cadillac insetead of MDX...will I choose Cadillac over Lexus? As much as I dont like our ES300, I would take it in a heartbeat over Cadillac!!!
    Wishnhigh1, I respect your opinion. But to be realistic, if college student like me were given a choice between a 3series (even hatchback MB and ES/IS300) and a cadillac, it's definetely easy choice! Most of my peers aspire to have "athletic" BMWs, "luxurious" Lexus, and "enticing" MBs. As for Cadillac...well...we associate Cadillac as a "old" person vehicle. To be fair, you could consider my preference of luxury brand as a minority representation of young people.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    but I fail to see the productivity of this continuing argument about what appeals to a certain group of people.

    Who cares?

    All that matters is what appeals to each of you.

    Let's move on to something else, please.
  • wishnhigh1wishnhigh1 Member Posts: 363
    I agree with Pat, this is a silly discussion. However, to say that the "average" young adult likes Lexus over Cadillac is pure speculation, not fact like Maxhonda likes to refer to it as.

    What the average young person likes is determined by so many different variables, mostly economic and geographic...it is impossible to generalize. Not to mention, anybody who makes an assumption on the opinions of others is also affected by their own perceptions.

    However, to say that young people DONT like Cadillacs is completely false. The cars I see every day in the student lots are a pure testament to that. Same goes with all the Cadillacs in music videos and other elements of youthful pop culture.

    That doesnt mean that BMWs, Audis(my favorite luxury cars), Lexi, MBs, etc arent popular...but it is pure speculation to say that one is more popular than the other.
  • magnetophonemagnetophone Member Posts: 605
    "However, to say that the "average" young adult likes Lexus over Cadillac is pure speculation, not fact like Maxhonda likes to refer to it as."

    "However, to say that young people DONT like Cadillacs is completely false. The cars I see every day in the student lots are a pure testament to that."

    That is a contradictory statement - a student parking lot in California is not any more representative than maxhonda's opinion!
  • wishnhigh1wishnhigh1 Member Posts: 363
    Read more carefully.

    To say that a group likes Brand A over Brand B is NOT the same as saying that a group does not like Brand B. Two completely seperate statements.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    move ON please

    :)
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    What is this forum going to be about once you elimate all the arguments? Why would people as a stupid question like "what is the point of this argument?" You might as well say "what is the point of Townhall?". Any topics where people dont debate are boring and sparsely attended. This topic was dead until a few days back. How long can you come here to read about the same people praising Lexus and MB over and over? If they love their cars that is beautiful but it doesnt mean we should shy away from any conflict.

    magnetophone:

    your post about cadillac not being a trendsetter was pointless. First off you mention a bunch of things that Cadillac just adopted and then say "I dont see anyone else copying them so they arent a top Luxury marque". How could anyone copy art & science after a year? Cadillac is trying to be different, they arent trying to design cars than can easily be copied. You give a lot of credit to BMW and Audi for setting trends that they didnt set. The Japanese luxury cars were the ones that forced the Germans to design inviting, logical interiors, not vice versa. The interior of a '92 Lexus was far better than the interior of any '92 Audi, MB or BMW. Look at some old motor trends if you dont believe me. While many companies have copied the handling of BMWs I dont see evidence of them copying BMWs styling or drab interiors (only recently brightened up with wood and metal accents) full of small buttons and red back lighting. The interior of the Ls430 looks better than any German interior to me, and yes Audi is included.

    You people are killing me with your XLR trashing. The car is going to be very limited production and cost thousands less than the XKR and SL500 and yet I keep hearing that no one will buy it because its a cadillac. Is that why the $85K Nieman Marcus models sold out in 14 minutes? People are saying that the car wont sell because its too expensive and its cadillac but there is no mention of the nice styling, the 315 hp engine and the state-of-the-art technology. Can anyone give me a REAL reason why it isnt an SL or XK8 competitor? Not everyone is a follower and I wish you people would get that. The car will sell because many people will want to be the first in their area to have one.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I though we already agreed on this re-tooling thing. Maybe I should have said that for SOME makers it isn't an issue. Mercedes for example has more than one plant that is able to build E-Classes. Maybe it's a problem for Honda, but not for everyone. Age and the news of a new E is what slowed the old E-Class down in the market.

    1487,

    Ok I agree with that. You admit that Audi has a better image than Cadillac? Wow, that is a revelation from you. Yes I was kinda rooting for you because as you well know I don't care much for Lexus either. But you still have that GM slant that I just can't fully agree with.

    magnetophone,

    Post #1804, EXACTLY!

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I don't think anyone is saying the XLR won't be a competitor to the SL, SC and XK8, what they're saying is that its not going to beat any of those cars. Cadillac still doesn't have the rep to command 75K for a car. A Nieman Marcus anything will sellout, Range Rovers and Thunderbirds included.

    M
  • wishnhigh1wishnhigh1 Member Posts: 363
    "I don't think anyone is saying the XLR won't be a competitor to the SL, SC and XK8, what they're saying is that its not going to beat any of those cars. Cadillac still doesn't have the rep to command 75K for a car. A Nieman Marcus anything will sellout, Range Rovers and Thunderbirds included."

    Beat them how? In the opinions of Magazine editors? You yourself has denied the value of magazine comparisons, because of the strong desire to compare everything to BMW. So what else is there?

    The only real comparison is in the eye of the buyer. If the XLR sells, it sells...it doesnt matter if it is Nieman Marcus or Fisher Price.

    And if Cadillac doesn't have the rep to sell $75k cars, how do they do it?...ESPECIALLY with a car that the public has only seen pictures of?!
  • sweetjeldoradosweetjeldorado Member Posts: 94
    How do you guys find the time to post so much?

    Maxhonda,

    I been out of school twelve years now and back then, my favorite luxury automaker was a Cadillac and still is to this day. Cadillacs were pure luxury back then in 1990 and '91 when I begin to take interest in the product. I don't care for Mercedes or BMW back then. I thought they were ugly as sin except few of the models. I like them (luxury imports) a lot better now but if I had a limited amount of income to choose between the STS, S500, or 745Li, I would choose the STS. Although the S500 and 745Li maybe a better car than the STS and in another league, the STS is an excellent luxury car without explaining itself to anyone.

    magnetohpone,

    What you said about Cadillacs being seen in poorer neighborhoods is somewhat spot on. That might been one of the reasons why I liked Cadillacs so much but calling them chump change is way off base. Most Cadillacs around here are driven by older people but more than 1/4ths. of age groups driving older models are younger people.

    However Matt, in the future, what you said about Cadillacs being driven by poorer people seems to be racist if you know what I mean. In poorer neighborhoods, African Americans predominantly live in those neighborhoods. Although you did not say that but anyone can read between the lines. So base on what you see, don't create a stereotype if you don't have a clue what's going on around you. I can easily say only white people drive BMWs and Porches out of ignorance which is false so clean up your posts a bit, please.

    Now to anyone, you guys need to stop being critics. I can tell you several number of Cadillacs that does get crossed shop between the high end competitors. It may not happen as commonly like the LS 430 between S 500 and 7 series but it does happen. The DTS may not be cross shopped according to you guys but it does and I can tell you some posters and their friends chose a DTS over a BMW, Lexus and Mercedes. So, if the car meets certain peoples needs so beat it if Cadillac won them over from Lexus or Mercedes.

    Also for those people that suppose to be rich on here that did not look at a Cadillac. Guess what, some percentage of people that are rich would never consider driving a Mercedes, Bentley, Rolls, BMW, or Lexus over a Cadillac also. So you guys need to stop giving in stereotype and just worry about the automaker you like so much and cherish the car you are driving right now and stop speculating so much.

    Again, I will tell you this like I would tell any of my friends that Cadillac, IMO, makes the best looking cars than anyone. Just about all the Cadillacs currently are drop-dead gorgeous and I can't say the same much about the luxury imports except a few. That is the reason I like Cadillac so much because of styling. So, take it whatever you want but that is my bias opinion.

    Lexus cars are nice but no excitement in styling and always tend to follow.

    Mercedes are nice especially the gorgeous SL 500/55 but Mercedes does not stand out anymore because they are being copied off of by anyone from Asian like Lexus and Acura.

    BMWs creating a new regime like Cadillac is in styling but their cars are funky looking to me like the new 7 and Z4.

    Jaguars have the most beautiful interior designs in its class but the exteriors are too old school and boring. I can't understand why anyone one consider the exterior of the Jaguars gorgeous anyhow. They simply are not.

    Audis are cutting edge in All-wheel drive and looks to be a contender in a few years but shared platforms a little too much like VWs. is turning me off.

    So, therefore Cadillac is the leader in styling direction, among the top in technology and best of all. They are original and they never imitate or duplicate. That is why I like them so much.

    J "CaddyLac"
  • magnetophonemagnetophone Member Posts: 605
    I never spoke of a racial connection to Cadillacs. At least where I live, most African-Americans don't live in the "poor" part of town. The "poor" part of town is about 1/10th the population of the city, so not many people at all live in the poor part of town. t's just something I've noticed. Lexi are also very common in poorer parts of town, but I wouldn't veture to say a particular race drives either.

    My aunt and cousins are Kenyan, and I also have a Vietnamese aunt and my parents are immigrants, so I wouldn't worry about me being racist.
    .
  • pcbrspcbrs Member Posts: 57
    J CaddyLac-

    "Mercedes are nice especially the gorgeous SL 500/55 but Mercedes does not stand out anymore because they are being copied off of by anyone from ASIAN like Lexus and Acura."

    Some may construe this as being racist as well, and ask you to "clean up your post". My guess is that you didn't mean it in that way, since you seem like a nice guy. But just goes to show how posts can be misinterpreted if read with a certain perspective.

    -Jeff
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Oh my, could we just talk about CARS???

    Again, it seems absolutely pointless to argue about (which is very different than "debating") what vehicle appeals to any given segment of society.

    Let's talk about what we appeals to each of us individually and not worry about categorizing people in any way.

    It's not necessary and the direction in which we've been going isn't even reasonable.

    Please, no more last words on this subject -- it is closed.

    Move on.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "Beat them how? In the opinions of Magazine editors? You yourself has denied
    the value of magazine comparisons, because of the strong desire to compare
    everything to BMW. So what else is there? "

    Obviously you haven't been paying attention, I said that I'm tired of magazines ranking cars below BMWs soley because of handling. If you read some of my other posts I usually more or less agree with MOST comparo's. In the case of this class of cars (SC430, SL500, XK8/R and XLR) handling isn't going to be as big of a deciding factor and better yet BMW isn't even competing in this class. Pay closer attention.

    Nieman Marcus can sell anything in a hot moment. When the XLR goes 3 years with constant sales it will be a success. The list of fallen-off cars at these prices is a long one, SC400, NSX, 850Ci etc and you can probably add the SC430 to the list by 2004. The previous SL didn't have such a problem, with 1997 (it's 8th(!) model year) being it's best year. Thats success.

    J "CaddyLac,

    "Audis are cutting edge in All-wheel drive and looks to be a contender in a few years but shared platforms a little too much like VWs."

    What is the disadvantage of this? Audi and VW are far more seperated than others who do the same thing, including Lexus, Cadillac and Acura. And Audi is a "contender" right now, easily ahead of everyone except MB, BMW and arguably Lexus.

    "Mercedes are nice especially the gorgeous SL 500/55 but Mercedes does not stand out anymore because they are being copied off of by anyone from Asian like Lexus and Acura."

    To some that may be so, but for those who like Mercedes it's all the more reason to want the "original". I'm not sure how your remarks can be seen as racist though, Acura and Lexus are Asian cars. I'm lost on that one.

    M
  • wishnhigh1wishnhigh1 Member Posts: 363
    Nieman Marcus can sell anything at the moment? I dont know about you, but I buy a car, not an "edition".

    As far as comparisons and your terms of success...we'll just have to wait and see. All your comments are pure speculation. I predict the best...in fact, I can see Cadillac up there with making a big dent in sales of Audi, BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus, in the coming 4 or 5 years.
  • sweetjeldoradosweetjeldorado Member Posts: 94
    O.K., I see what you meant now when you explained what you meant. Though I misunderstood when I was reading earlier in your post. Anyway, lets move talking about cars.

    Merc1,

    Can you enlightened us on the connotation of what the letters stand for? Remember in the CTS topic of how screwed up the Cadillac naming has been. Now what does C in "C Class", E and S in model classes stand for. I think if I recall you said SL stands for "small light" or sport light".

    On the Phaeton and new A8, the side profile looks very similar. However, I don't think I would spend $70,000 on it and I could get the A8. By the looks of the pictures, I am not too sure I really like the looks of the car (A8). I prefer the current A8 model which is very classy and elegant. The Phaeton to me is a touring car that is not sporty at all but on the inside, it is in another league of its on. Also too, I think the current A4 is gorgeous. I can see myself in this car as well. I don't know if you agree or not but is it me or is it that every time I use the word gorgeous about cars, cars look better and more stylish each generation. Don't you seem to agree. I used that word on various Cadillacs, on the SL and now on the A4.

    J "CaddyLac"
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    Neiman Marcus selling out of XLR's means nothing.

    Remember, Neiman Marcus also sold a version of the Thunderbird. And they sold them out quickly also. How is the Thunderbird doing now? It sure doesn't have a 1-year waiting list.

    The C-class, E-class, and S-class designations don't really mean anything. The C, E, and S, basically designate where the car is in the model hierarchy. C would be below E, E would be below S. It is similar to what BMW does except with they do it with number designations.
  • benzbuddybenzbuddy Member Posts: 10
    Neiman Marcus can do whatever he wants to the XLR but it still will be a Cadillac. Remember all cadillac's are, are nicer varients of Chevy GMC and oldsmobile's. For me im sticking to my 03 SL63.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "Nieman Marcus can sell anything at the moment? I dont know about you, but I buy a car, not an "edition"."

    And that means what? Cadillacers are touting that the Nieman Marcus XLR sold out so fast, and I'm basically saying that means nothing.

    "I can see Cadillac up there with making a big dent in sales of Audi, BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus, in the coming 4 or 5 years."

    Also pure speculation.

    J "CaddyLac",

    Well Maxhonda touched on it, and he's basically right. The "E" used to mean gasoline when they put the E after the engine size, like 300E, D was for diesels as in 300D. Now as per the last time they were laid out for me, they meant Compact (C), Executive (E) and Super for (S). Now SL, and SLK, CLK all have more meaning. Coupe, Short, Light, for CLK. Sport Light, is for SL, Coupe Light is for CL. All of this is translated from German words.

    benzbuddy,

    A SL63? Care to explain that one to me?

    M
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    I merely bought up a Nieman Marcus thing to show that there is a buzz about the car and that people were willing to pay $15K over the likely sticker price to get one. I didn't think merc1 would start analyzing this thing to death. Even if every other NM car sold out the fact is this is the most expensive of the models offered thus far and it sold out far faster than any of the other cars. The car will sell and the fact that it's a cadillac may help it because it makes it seem exclusive. Two years ago no one would've believed that cadillac would have a real RWD luxury roadster and people who have been waiting for cadillac to step up will be excited about this car. Like wishnight, I would like to know what you mean when you say the car won't "beat" anything else in the class. What are you talking about, this isnt a boxing match. These cars are all competent and luxurious, our point is that the XLR will be among the top two in luxury, performance and innovation. This crap about cadillac's "rep" is absurd and you all know that. If MB can charge $90K for the Sl500 then Cadillac can charge $70K for the XLR. Niether car is worth that much and anyone who puts that much money into a car isnt making the wisest investment. The performance, exclusivity and technology of the car sets the price, not the badge on the front. If the Sl500 had the same features as a Miata it wouldnt cost $90K, even if you plastered the MB star all over the car. If the XLR is up to snuff then people who aren't in love with Euro imports will consider the car. Of course people like Maxhonda and merc1 would be caught dead in a cadillac and that's fine, but you cant assume that rational people in the market wouldn't look at and BUY the damn car basedon its merits. If you have a personal preference that is fine but do not try and use (il)logical arguments to justify your position.

    also, merc1 don't insult me by acting like I have recently converted to your school of thinking. I have never said that Cadillac's image (image not being synonomous reality) is superior to audi, BMW or MB. I don't know why you are so shocked. I have a thorough understanding of the market and you know that so dont act like I am so pro-cadillac that I would ignore basic truths of the luxury car industry.

    There are numerous Audi, BMW and MB models that I would like to own, but the fact remains that I am rooting for the underdog and I hope that one day they can no longer be considered an underdog. If not following the herd makes me a "cadillacer" as you have so eloquently called us, than so be it. Now you know much more than the average import fanatic (and you dont like Lexus which is a plus) but let's be honest it isn't hard to go around praising the guys on top. Any 8th grader who was chauferred to school is his mom's RX300 can come on here and repeat a lot of the "lexus rules!" or "cadillac sucks!" nonsense I see on Townhall.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    "Two years ago no one would've believed that cadillac would have a real RWD luxury roadster and people who have been waiting for cadillac to step up will be excited about this car."

    It's been in the news for more than 2 years. The problem is RWD should have come around a decade ago. It should not have taken this long. I'm excited about the car also, it's the only Cadillac so far that wears the new design theme well, and corvette underpinnings don't hurt either. What sucks is the plastic body panels. GM's choice of skinning should have been aluminum.

    "I would like to know what you mean when you say the car won't "beat" anything else in the class. What are you talking about, this isnt a boxing match."

    If I remember properly(I'm paying attention), you are the one who started the boxing match. I can reference back to the "next year Cadillac is going to run past Lexus in sales." statements made repeatedly. Also, statements along the lines of "When is Lexus going to compete model to model with Benz & BMW" thereby, implying Cadillac does compete model to model with anyone.

    "This crap about cadillac's "rep" is absurd and you all know that."

    Actually, no it isn't. Cadillac has built Crap all thru the 90s. The last time Cadillac's rep was golden was in the 60's(?), it certainly hasn't had a good rep since Mercedes, BMW started exploding with models in the early 90s and since Lexus & Infiniti came on the scene.

    "The performance, exclusivity and technology of the car sets the price, not the badge on the front. If the Sl500 had the same features as a Miata it wouldnt cost $90K, even if you plastered the MB star all over the car."

    You have it all wrong here. The badge does set part of the price, otherwise a SL500 wouldn't cost $90,000. The badge on the front of a S600 also allows Mercedes to sell it and sell it for a premium. If you stuck a Cadillac badge on a S600, and tried to sell it for even $10K less, very few would buy it. The point is, Badge does set price, partially.

    Of course the SL500 with Miata features wouldn't cost $90K, because then it wouldn't be a SL500. The features of the SL500, as well as the ownership experience, the reputation of Mercedes, the build quality, and the Prestige factor is what makes it cost $90K.

    "Of course people like Maxhonda and merc1 would be caught dead in a cadillac"

    The proper word would be "wouldn't" not "would".

    Actually, I would love to be behind the wheel of a XLR, if it does compete with cars like the SC430, SL500, XK8. The art & science theme works on the XLR, unlike the CTS which is a big positive. If it drives luxuriously, handles well, has outstanding build quality(Something that has eluded Cadillac), and competes, I would take a XLR over a SC430. Of course at the price Cadillac is hoping to charge for the car, it better be a much better car than the SC430 for example.

    "Any 8th grader who was chauferred to school is his mom's RX300 can come on here and repeat a lot of the "lexus rules!" or "cadillac sucks!" nonsense I see on Townhall."

    So, I am assuming you were a 8th grader chauferred to school in a in your mom's Cimarron and that's where your "Cadillac is King" attitude is from.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    There is WAY too much emphasis on personal, uncivil and disruptive disagreements going on here.

    There are folks here who persist in posting messages which do nothing more than attack. There is NO less productive way to get your point of view heard. If the point of a posted message is nothing more than an attack of another poster, NO one is going to ponder for one second the perspective you wish to bring to the conversation.

    As I have previously noted, this discussion has a history of intelligent, reasonable and NON-attacking debate. We need to find a way to get back there, and we need to do it now.

    The childish back-biting and name-calling that has been occurring here is completely inappropriate and will not be tolerated any longer.

    Thank you for your understanding. Feel free to email me if you have any questions or further comments.

    Pat, Host
  • porknbeansporknbeans Member Posts: 465
    The posts were like reading War and Peace meets Jerry Springer.

    Back on topic. Does anybody have an idea of how Lincoln/Mercury plan to compete in this segment with all of the cost cutting going on. I understand that most people don't think that Mercury will be around much longer and that Lincoln really doesn't compete. However, they have to make up the appearance right? Do they relegate themselves to Buick/Cadillac fighters and let the rest of the PAG compete against Lexus/MB/Audi/BMW?
    Porknbeans

    Grand High Poobah
    The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
  • benzbuddybenzbuddy Member Posts: 10
    The SL 63 is a mere prototype. Not a production car. All I ment is that Id rather have a SL 55 than a XLR. What an ugly car that is.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    to respond to questions about topic management via email.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Just because Mercedes can charge 90K for a SL500 doesn't mean Cadillac can charge 75K for the XLR. Mercedes' reputation isn't in question here, Cadillac's is. Anyone who thinks that a luxury car's reputation isn't called into question when someone is considering droppoing 75K on a car is dead wrong to say the least, or blinded by the wreath and crest. Mercedes has been charging 90K or more for cars for years and years and with engineering to back it up. Anyone with an "understanding" of the market would know that Cadillac has never done anything to warrant or justify charging 70K for a car. Period.

    Nieman Marcus selling 99 XLR's doesn't mean much, as they sell out of every car they've ever offered through one of their online specials.

    I'm all for pulling for the underdog, but lets be real here, Cadillac isn't going to have no where near any easy time selling the XLR, unless they sell about 3K a year, which is what the SL, SC and XK do in a few months.

    M
  • baron87baron87 Member Posts: 93
    Why don't we compute the math here. If Cadillac sold 99/99 vehicles in 15 minutes, one could reason that the whole fleet of 3,000 XLRs will be gone within the first day of sale. What, do I hear shouts of "crazed idiot"?

    Well call me what you want, but when GM has already had more than 20,000 inquiries into this vehicle of people wishing to place deposits, it doesn't seem too far-fetched for a mere 3,000 vehicles to sell out in one day. That's less than 1/6 the inquiry number, anyway. And even with a computed atricion (sp?) rate, 3,000 should be easy to achieve.

    Who knows how the price was/will be set. Most likely just done by the GM bean counters using linear programming with constraints related to production, profit, vehicle price, etc., and that they chose number around 75k (with the sales of the more expensive Neiman Marcus version), provided what would produce maximum sales and profit. Who knows...
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    baron, en Anglais, s'il vous plait.

    And no, you're not a crazed idiot...I'm just really bad at math.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Be sure to read this very carefully, Cadillac will NEVER EVER sell 3000 XLRs in one day. Never. Please wake up.

    M
  • benzbuddybenzbuddy Member Posts: 10
    Yup. Merc got you there. There would be ABSOLUTELY no way Caddy could sell 3000 XLRs in a day. Do you accualy think they could sell 3000 of those cars that quickly? And besides its just a nicer Corvette. If you want a good car save your money and buy a Benz
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    We dont even know how much the XLR is going to cost and people are already saying that the car will have trouble selling because it's too expensive. I will say this again, you have to consider what a car offers when you look at the price. Just because the XLR is a cadillac doesn't mean it costs too much. If the car cost too little everyone would criticize it for being too cheap to be equal to the SL or XKR. If it costs 70K then it is considered too expensive to be a cadillac. I want to know what price would be appropriate for this car? I dont understand how Cadillac isnt allowed to charge $70K for a car when they have cars going up to $60K right now. This is not acura, VW or infiniti we are talking about. They know that to be seen as competitive they have to offer models that are in the same bracket as top MB and BMW models and that is what they are doing. There is no reason for this car to be cheaper if MB and Jaguar are going to charge 90K and 80K, respectively, for their two doors. I really wish the SC430 would drop out of this discussion. I dont think anyone really considers that car to be on the same level as the expensive euro convetibles. It's performance, handling and technology are all lacking compared to the Sl500 and even the revised XK8. You guys have to realize that almost everything GM comes out with (and this really applies to cadillacs) is predicted to fail or is met with skepticism. The first Escalade was predicted to be a failure,the '02 escalade was faintly praised but still called nothing more than a Tahoe with a caddy badge, the EXT was criticized, the CTS was supposed to be a slow seller because of its styling, the H2 was called a waste of time and now the XLR is being doubted. If we use previous models as an example I think we see that the doubts are always there but the sales follow anyway.

    If people were trying to put down deposits on the Cien (which wasnt even approed for production) at the auto show last year why wouldn't there be a demand for the Xlr once it arrives?

    merc1,

    please define the "ownership experience" that makes the Sl500 worth $90K. That is a joke. Putting up with arrogant dealers and making too many trips to the service department counts as a great ownership experience?? Spare me.

    honda99,

    If badge sets price why are lexus vehicles so much cheaper, model-to-model, than BMW and MB vehicles? I have already established that most caddy models are more expensive than Lexus models. We both know that Lexus has a better rep than cadillac but I want to know why they cant price their models like BMW and MB if their image is supposedly just as prestigous. Also, why would the XLR have to a "much better" car than the Sc430 if its going to cost the same or slightly more? The XLR will be faster, it looks much better and it has far more technology than the SC430 so it sure as hell should cost more.
  • sweetjeldoradosweetjeldorado Member Posts: 94
    Seems like to me the Escalade variants and the recently introduced Hummer H2 has more prestige than the higher end luxury imports. I am beginning to see H2s on music videos now and several of them on the streets.

    "I really wish the SC430 would drop out of this discussion. I dont think anyone really considers that car to be on the same level as the expensive euro convetibles. It's performance, handling and technology are all lacking compared to the Sl500 and even the revised XK8."

    Exactly agreed through and through.

    J "CaddyLac"
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    1487, As always, your posts always have issues.

    "I will say this again, you have to consider what a car offers when you look at the price."

    What you say or think doesn't really matter in the marketplace, now does it? I will say this again also, car pricing is based on MORE than just what it has physically. Car prices also include what people are willing to pay for intangibles. In the case of a Mercedes, people pay thousand of dollars for the 3-pointed star. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't pay more for a car with the 3-pointed star, I really do think people who pay thousands more for the prestige factor of a Mercedes are insane, but I don't set the market price neither do you. The marketplace as a whole sets the price and that basically means a car will cost more just because it has a 3-pointed star on the hood. And frankly let's face it, a Cadillac is no Mercedes. Therefore, even if the XLR had the same equipment, the same performance, the same build quality, the price in the marketplace would be lower for the XLR because it lacks 1 thing: The 3-pointed star(Prestige & heritage).

    "I dont understand how Cadillac isnt allowed to charge $70K for a car when they have cars going up to $60K right now."

    Let's get realistic. On paper Cadillac has cars that cost near $60K. Again I'll go through this, the price is really much less because of a few reasons: 1) Cadillac's are discounted deeply. 2)GM is always throwing out incentives to sell cars. This is in either of 3 ways, one is thru subvented leasing, two is thru factory or dealer rebates and three is thru subsidized financing(0%). 3) Cadillac sells very few cars fully loaded. Cadillac charging $60K for cars is like stating the LS430 goes for $70K or the S-class goes for $100K. Why is this thinking false? It is false because we all know the average LS430 costs nowhere near $70K MSRP. The Majority of LS430s sold are somewhere in the low $60K range. Same with the S-class, the most popular S-class is the S430, which doesn't cost $100K. And therefore, saying the Cadillac's cost $60K us just a wee bit(actually much more)misleading.

    "They know that to be seen as competitive they have to offer models that are in the same bracket as top MB and BMW models and that is what they are doing."

    I remember proving this statement wrong previously also. Where is Cadillac offering models in the same brackets as MB & BMW?
    As of know, Cadillac has no competition for the ML320 or X5. Don't forget the SRX isn't out yet.
    Cadillac has nothing that competes with the SLK, Z4 at the lower end of the roadster spectrum. Cadillac has no coupe or station wagon version of the CTS. Cadillac has nothing to compete with the 5-series or E-class. Cadillac has nothing to compete with the 745i or S430, and Cadillac has nothing at the high end of the spectrum such as a Z8, SL55, S600. Where is the model for model competition?

    "I really wish the SC430 would drop out of this discussion. I dont think anyone really considers that car to be on the same level as the expensive euro convetibles."

    If really nobody considers the SC430 to be a competitor with the euro convertibles, let me tell you, nobody is going to even consider a $70K Cadillac convertible against anything European or Japanese.

    "The first Escalade was predicted to be a failure,the '02 escalade was faintly praised but still called nothing more than a Tahoe with a caddy badge, the EXT was criticized"

    The first escalade wasn't predicted to be a sales failure, it just predicted that it would be a POS, which it was. After all, it wasn't a Cadillac in any sense of the word. It was merely a chromed up Denali. I don't ever remember the '02 Escalade being called a failure. In fact ever since it has come out, it's been pretty well regarded. The EXT is merely a Avalance. That's reason enough for it to be criticized.

    "the CTS was supposed to be a slow seller because of its styling" Who said anything about slow seller? I just said it was ugly and it can't hold a candle to cars such as the G35, IS300, 330i or C320.

    "If badge sets price why are lexus vehicles so much cheaper, model-to-model, than BMW and MB vehicles?" Refer back to the beginning of the post about prestige. Lexus doesn't have the prestige of a Mercedes, Lexus has only been around 12 years.

    "I have already established that most caddy models are more expensive than Lexus models."

    Key word "I". The only thing you have established is that YOU think they are more expensive. But really quite the contrary.

    RX300s cost about $40K
    ES300s cost about $35-$40K
    GS300/430s cost about $45K-$55K
    LS430s cost about $55K to $70K
    IS300s cost about $35K
    LX470s cost about $65K
    SC430 cost about $62K i think

    CTS runs about $35K
    Seville about $48K to $55K
    Deville about the same.

    Let's not forget what I went over earlier in this post: Cadillacs are heavily discounted and they have heavy incentives. Let's not forget how skewed the Deville sales figures are because of fleet sales. You have established something that only you yourself believe.

    "Also, why would the XLR have to a "much better" car than the Sc430 if its going to cost the same or slightly more? The XLR will be faster, it looks much better and it has far more technology than the SC430 so it sure as hell should cost more."

    One answer can explain it all: Prestige. Lexus has it over Cadillac, by a long shot. Really? how much faster is it going to be? by a few-tenths of a second, and that's not much. More technology? I haven't seen much on it's soo superior technology. Is it going to have the build quality of a Lexus or the reliability? I doubt that.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Why doesn't Lexus price their cars as high as BMW and MB?

    Because it costs them much less to produce them. They have better automation, less manpower per auto and cheaper labor costs. Though they have joined the club at the top the company still acts like they haven't which is just fine with me. They are also cohesively integrated with Toyota in spreading the technology around. How else do you explain a Camry having a better navigation system than Mercedes.

    SC430 - say whatever you want about the car but it is spectacular by my standards. Lexus doesn't care about the enthusiasts - it cares about its target market.
  • baron87baron87 Member Posts: 93
    It's entirely statistically possible, and to a certain degree, probable, that 3,000 XLRs would be ordered/sold in one day. Just as it is statistically probable, and fairly much dictated by the law of conservation of energy and quatum mechanics, that as I clap my hands right now, someone in some place in this universe or otherwise is "unclapping" their hands.

    Moreover, the greater point was that, ultimately, the XLRs price will be determined by what is a "best-fit" for production, price, profit, productivity, efficiency, labor, parts, etc., etc. There's an infinitesimal ammount of variables, but nonetheless, linear programming or some other form of computer modeling handles the job well...
  • magnetophonemagnetophone Member Posts: 605
    Most of your post, baron, could have been summed up in 2 sentences. The law of conservation of energy is misapplied in this case.

    It doesn't matter if it's statistically possible, what matter is what actually happens. Here's an example: The Audi A4 Cabriolet has already sold out for the year worldwide. So you could technically say, in the few weeks it's been 'out' that it has sold 30,000 units. But that's a misleading number - people have known about the car for many months and have placed deposits and have anticipation.

    The real judge of success is not Neiman's or whether it can sell 3,000 orders. I think the real judge of success is whether the XLR sells consistently for decades, raises the standard by which all other cars in its category are judged, and commands a premium, like the SL has. People obviously feel the car is worth $100,000 - doesn't mean it's worth that to you or me, but it's worth that to more people than for any other giant luxo convertible out there.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    You've somehow let the others confuse you. Where did I use "ownership experience" in any of MY posts? Though since you bring up the concept, why don't you take a look at the SL500 board and see what the owners have to say. Are you saying that every SL has to go back to the dealer and that all MB dealers are arrogant? If that is the case all of Cadillac's cars are junk. Period. Now do you want to get oriented or continue down the path of vast incorrectness?

    Secondly, I'm not sure why you can't understand that NOBODY is paying 60K for a Cadillac. Do you even read the Cadillac boards here? Cadillacs sell with huge discounts. Now before you say it I know the XLR isn't going to be discounted like the Deville, but if you think the market is already primed for a 75K Cadillac based on the sales prices of their current cars you're wrong at best, and simply ingnoring reality at worst. Mercedes, depending on the model either go for a few thousand off sticker: any left over 2002 (S and CL models especially), and the 2003 C and E class cars...or they go for sticker: 2003 SL and CL. Even if I'm not covering every single MB market in the country you can bet nobody is getting 5-7K off a new 2003 Benz, like you can readily get off of that new DTS. I know you know this.

    We do agree on the SC430 I see, though I honestly still want to "like" the car. It's hard for me to dismiss a GT car, even one made by Lexus. It's priced right and truthfully has very little competition at it's price point and Lexus knew this. Very smart.

    However I think you have my position wrong on the XLR. I would very much like the car to be a hit. I just don't want to see the car flop simply because it was overpriced. The XLR should be no more than 65-70K with every available option, that way it sits in between the SL and the SC and more or less eye-level with the Jaguar. I think a starting price of 75K and possibly over 80K with options is too much...the attitude will be "may as well get the Benz or XKR". That will ensure failure for the XLR. Price the car right intially and raise it if demand is high...thats what everyone else does (lol). Nobody is saying there won't be ANY demand for the XLR. How much demand is the question. Simply put, if Cadillac doesn't bite off more than it can chew by overpricing the XLR it will be a hit.

    I'm not sure who said the Hummer H2 was a waste of time. I personally think it's a great vehicle. Having seen just about every TV program, reading every article (including the one in CAR magazine, usually very harsh on American products) and lastly having gone to see it in the metal I think it's the best engineered vehicle GM has done in years. The thing is purpose built, every GM engineering unit should be as motivated.

    My only problem with the Cadillac trucks is that there is no where enough seperation from the Chevys they are based on. I mean honestly what did Cadillac do other than add some leather, wood, crests, and a few other small options to make a Denali worth 60K? A new and totally sperate interior would go a long way towards justifying the price difference.

    Why can't Lexus price their vehicles like MB and BMW? Easy, Lexus has three maing things going for them Price/Reliablity/Quality. Take away one of those by pricing the LS430 or SC430 the same as their MB/BMW competition and they'd sell a lot less....a whole lot less. The Japanese as a whole make the highest quality cars in the world, and they have gained the right in the market to price their cars higher than Americans or Koreans, but when it comes to German cars they still have to play the price card. Ask Acura about NSX sales when a 911 can be had for less.

    Lastly, you say that everything GM does is met with skepticism. Its not hard to see why. The CTS is a prime example. While it's head and shoulders above the Catera, we still have to wait until next year for the proper interior and base engine. And you can't say it's just me and GM bashers, Lutz himself has said that car isn't up to snuff. GM simply has a history of putting out half-baked cars, so naturally the press and foreign car enthusiasts are "skeptical". This isn't as big a problem with "regular" cars, but when it comes to Luxury cars, reputation is everything. Cadillac is going to have to do a string of cars "right" before their image turns around. Audi did it with one hit after another, 1996 A4, 1997 A8, 1998 A6, and back again with the 2002 A4. None of Audi's cars were "works in progress" upon their release like the CTS is. GM simply has to stop it.

    ljflx,

    "Lexus doesn't care about the enthusiasts - it cares about its target market. "

    Wow, you said a mouthful my friend. I guess thats why the IS300 hasn't been a hit huh. Your statement is exactly why Lexus didn't put the Europeans out of business like everyone said they would and thats also why I can't hardly ever see myself buying one. That said, I've come to really respect your opinion/slant on this whole luxury car thing.

    Baron,

    Come on now, you're starting to sould like a GM exec.

    M
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    If the target market for the car is the enthusiast then they will certainly care about the enthusiast for that particular model. But in general they have made it obvious that they don't care about the opinion of the enthusiasts.

    I am very curious to see where they go with the new GS design that is due out in the spring. I haven't seen any good stories on this.

    Never say never!

    By the way who, in their right mind ever said Lexus would put the Germans out of business. Personally I think Lexus increased the buying interest in luxury cars among a greater percentage of the population which is actually good for everyone.
  • fjk57702fjk57702 Member Posts: 539
    The current Audi lineup has not been in production for decades. All of their current models are relativily new names. This is because of the fiasco that occurred with the Audi 100? or perhaps the 5000. I don't quite remember what their model names were with the runaway acceleration problem.

    You have made some valid points - consistent sales over a period of time is a good measure. However, the Cimmarron sold quite consistently over the time period (7 years) that it was in production. Yet, everyone considers it a failure. Is Rolls Royce a complete failure? The company is now split up and owned by two german automakers.
  • magnetophonemagnetophone Member Posts: 605
    I never said that the current Audi lineup had been in production for decades. I was using the Audi A4 cabrio only as an example of advance sales causing a waiting list of a year. I was not indicating that this is any kind of sales success or longetivity, just an example of why "3,000 sales in one day" means almost nothing.

    The reason the Cimmaron was a failure was because it didn't redefine the class or do anything to advance small car luxury. For Cadillac's terms, it sold poorly - they were the #1 luxury car maker at the time and 50,000 units or less a year is infitesimal.
  • fjk57702fjk57702 Member Posts: 539
    What you said in general is that for a car to be successful, a model has to be in production for decades and sell consistently. I think that is nonsense. Cadillac has been in production for a hundred years and has had great influence on the luxury car market over that time period.
  • magnetophonemagnetophone Member Posts: 605
    Cadillac's also had almost 25 years of mediocre cars, which to me indicates a consistently subpar reputation. Let's agree to disagree.
  • fjk57702fjk57702 Member Posts: 539
    I agree that Cadillac has not built the kind of cars in the last 25 years that it built in the first 75. I hope that things will improve in the next few years. However, I do not view cars that sell for $60,000+ to be a desirable goal for Cadillac. They need to make some good medium priced luxury cars (in the $40,000+ range). I now own a Seville that I paid $40,000 for and I would say that at that price the car is not badly priced. (list was over $50,000)
  • zachmbenzfvrzachmbenzfvr Member Posts: 25
    I think Cadillac should concentrate on making their current cars better in every way possible before venturing out into a market where it is dominated by brands like Mercedes and Jaguar. The Seville and DeVille are essentially in the same class which doesn't make sense. The CTS, well to sum it up.. why so square?? Make sure that you have a good line of at least modestly successful models and then maybe, just maybe you can back a $75+ roadster.
  • wishnhigh1wishnhigh1 Member Posts: 363
    a 75k flagship isnt that big of a jump.
  • magnetophonemagnetophone Member Posts: 605
    I saw a CTS today with an atrocious gold package and some kind of mini-carriage roof. The car looked absolutely hideous. It's owners like this that continue to make Cadillac second-rate.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "By the way who, in their right mind ever said Lexus would put the Germans out of business."

    Read any early 90's Car & Driver, Automobile and the like. They all said that MB and BMW would have to partner just to stay in business.

    "But in general they have made it obvious that they don't care about the opinion of the enthusiasts. "

    Well it's pretty hard to cater to both, hence the IS300's failure in the marketplace.

    M
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    "Well it's pretty hard to cater to both, hence the IS300's failure in the marketplace."

    No, it's really not hart to cater to both the enthusiast market and the target market. And I would hardly call the IS300 a failure. Sure, the IS300 hasn't sold as well as Lexus expected in the states, but elsewhere in the world the IS-series is selling well. It's main downside is that it's simply not designed for the American driver. Lexus made a boo-boo when it came to bringing the car to the US as basically a carryover from Europe.
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    I agree with zach and fjk. Caddy & Lincoln will have to prove they can build a consistent quality 30+ car before they jump into the 70+ range. That means at least the next two generations of cts and ls will have to keep getting better. And no more than six years between generations. If more than that, customers lose interest and shop something else. It doesn't look good, Ford just axed the scheduled development of the next ls platform.

    bmw, mb, lexus build trust because their models keep improving every five, six years. Their reputation isn't built in a day.

    My advice is Caddy & Lincoln: go slow
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