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Comments
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
C'mon, houdini, you're crackin me up here.
And you still haven't proved your claim that people called the LS460 a "piece of crap".
Man, I'm good with you loving the LS and all that, but what's going on here? :confuse:
TagMan
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Good enough.
Now we can get back to "fair and balanced" (sounds like Fox news) posts again.
TagMan
I generally give higher credibility to the majority, or general concensus, and avoid any extreme perspectives.
TagMan
Also, Audi has taken Lamborghini from sales of 300 unreliable cars to nearly 2000 in just five years, suggesting that Audi does know something about the supercar market yet alone the its own premium status. Audi Czar Dr. Winterkorn knows exactly what he is doing and VW and Porsche know it.
I won't be able to accurately determine this for myself at the "Taste", but my 545 is around 5.4, so I know what it feels like to be that fast, and I will be able to tell if the LS is closer to the 5.4 as claimed or the 6.0 that C&D found.
I wouldn't bet on Jack Nicholas either. He lives several blocks away and has a 23 handicap, but he has won a few club tournaments and wears a genuine Relox to prove it.
The 7 series is not a real HELM :confuse:
IMO the A8L is no HELM if the 7 series is no HELM. Your opinions and my opinions dont really matter one bit since the world knows that both the A8 and 7 Series are real HELMs.
CAR is notorious for it anti-Audi tribble and its kissing [non-permissible content removed] of BMW.
CAR and almost every major auto magazine in the world kisses BMW [non-permissible content removed]. Why? Is it a conspiracy? Are most auto journalists under control from Bavaria? Or are the majority of auto journalists ignorant about cars? No, no and no again. Is it maybe because BMWs are really that good? Maybe?
This whole idea that most opinions among auto journalists are drivel is mainly held by disgruntled individuals whose favorite cars are not favored by the press. Maybe you will change your mind when Audi manages to improve the reviews of their cars . In that case I assume you would consider auto journalists far more objective. :P
At the end of the day the most important reviewer is the car buyer/leaser himself. But that does not in anyway diminish the role of a good auto reviewer. Most of us in this forum read auto mags for a reason and it is certainly not to waste our time. There are many good auto magazine reviewers that do provide valuable and different perspectives about a car.
If you asked Tiger Woods who is the greatest golfer ever, he'd say Jack, no question. Lexus would give Mercedes the same respect.
The S550 is the "benchmark". Period. Ok? Not disputing that.
Is that the end of the story? I think not.
All I know about the two cars is the LS was more tasteful and elegant, especially out back, after seeing them together.
My "extreme remarks" were always qualified with Maybe, or words to that effect. Again, the car isn't out yet. The LS always competes well against ANY luxury car, because it has been that good.
All I'm sayin' is the LS460 has all the ingredients to be the new "benchmark".
What was the Toyota Camry before the 1992 redesign? The Camry is now the standard, ever since.
That might be a more "balanced" Camry comparison, because that may not be so far-fetched.
I will drive the LS460, and hopefully the S550, on the 29th.
DrFill
If nothing else, it will give me some insight as to where the Lexus posters are coming from.
It would be nice if all regular posters here would test drive as many of the HELM offerings that we discuss here as they can so we can compare notes.
Hopefully my great grand children will give me a soft riding luxury car during my 100th birtday.
Geesh!
Back to your post, I get your point this time.
It's all starting to heat up a bit isn't it? As we get closer to the real understanding of what an LS460 truly is and isn't, and how it will honestly compare to the offerings from Mercedes, BMW, Audi, and even Jaguar.
It will be interesting, and I do hope that we are able to reach some areas of agreement as to how the LS460 ultimately stacks up. That will depend, of course, on how objective we are able to be.
If history is any lesson, it ain't gonna be all that easy.
But who knows, maybe the qualities of the LS will be so obvious that they will leave little room for doubt or debate.
Since I won't be participating in one of the Lexus driving promotions, I will ultimately inspect and test drive the vehicle when it becomes possible at a local dealership.
After that, we'll be in a better position to compare notes.
TagMan
Actully, yes. Most auto mags are in the leisure, past-time and entertainment section, not considered peer-reviewed scientific journals or real news, the last time i checked.
If a Lexus rep accompanies you in the right passenger seat, make sure he understands your driving techniques and then proceed to offer him a vomit bag.
Let me know what you think the 0-100 time is, please. This should prove to be more representative of the way you and I drive, anyway. Since you'll already be at 100, might as well check the 100-0 braking distance, to check for any grabbiness.
Good luck with your mission. Lethal force is prohibited. And don't eat that pate until after your drive. We wouldn't want your reflexes slowed down.
TagMan
A 8.7L V8 from Lexus seems somewhat unlikely. I'm thinking by 2064, the LS will be hydrogen\electric with a motor per wheel. Ultra capacitors and extremely powerful electric motors will eliminate the need for a traditional big engine.
We will certainly see the result of competition shortly. Within a couple years, we will probably see substantial lease subsidy on one of the two models . . . talk about marketting gimmick :-)
Those will also power the massage recliners in the back seats while watching the motorized 42" plasma satellite TV with THX 7.1 surround sound utilizing Mark Levinson Jr.'s 48-speaker 5000 watt system.
And of course Lexus in the year 2064, still trying to conquer BMW, will have their new slogan: "Lexus - The Ultimate Passenger's Machine".
TagMan
Wow! This is a terrific in-depth article on BMW that we should all appreciate (especially hpowders and Dewey).
BusinessWeek - BMW's Dream Factory
TagMan
BMW is also willing to take more styling risks than either MB or VW/Audi too. You'd think with all the complaints and general dislike of idrive and their newly launched styling theme (2002 7-Series) BMW would be in trouble now, but just the opposite has happened. So much for critics.
That part about Toyota sending people to BMW factories to look at their production techniques isn't going to be accepted by some of the Toyota/Lexus faithful.
M
My mission at the Lexus Taste arranged in descending order of importance after a 4 hour drive will be:
restroom, wine, pate, restroom, acceleration, braking, cornering, Maalox, restroom, drive home.
It's always good to have a plan.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I think I'll go out there and see if Jack Nicholas will do me the honor of allowing me to play with him today. He should agree if I give him 16 strokes! Heh! Heh!
Ya gotta love it!!
Can you really tell the difference between 5.5 and 6.0?
Man, you got me!!!!!!
TagMan
Neck-snapping REALLY depends upon first gear . . . and how quick it jumps out of the gate.
With LS460's very low first two gears, there could very well be some neck-snapping out of the gate, but the question would be if third gear and beyond keep it moving fast enough to achieve that 5.4 time.
Either way, at least you'll get a strong sense of its acceleration, even if you can't put a definate number on it.
TagMan
That part about Toyota sending people to BMW factories to look at their production techniques isn't going to be accepted by some of the Toyota/Lexus faithful.
Yeah, terrific article indeed. One of the best highlights of BMW to come along in a long time.
And for those that still do not beleive that Lexus has BMW in it's sights, this should help convince them, as BMW's Reithofer says it himself.
Toyota's Lexus also has BMW in its sights as it makes a move to gain in Europe with sportier, better-handling cars. "We will be challenged -- no question," says Reithofer. "We have to take Lexus seriously."
Glad you enjoyed it!
TagMan
Hey, Dewey, I knew you'd be one to enjoy it. Glad you did.
TagMan
Expect a Blutec VW Tiguan, BMW X5, Audi Q7 and Q5, Jeep Cherokees and ofcourse MB R, M and GL Classes.
In my case I am disappointed since I expected to get confirmed news about diesel cars and not only SUVs.
An interesting challenger to Blutec will be Honda's diesel system which is not bogged down with Blutec's urea bladder.
restroom, wine, pate, restroom, acceleration, braking, cornering, Maalox, restroom, drive home.
It's always good to have a plan.
Good luck with your mission. I hope you accomplish at least some of those things
Yes, they have an improved catalytic system, I believe, and the engine is suitable for all 50 states.
blkhemi posted (#19547) this statement on Oct 5th, but I have not been able to find any news to back it up.
MB just announced that they had good reason on holding off on the urea tank for the Bluetec, they've found a way to get the clean stuff without it.
Hopefully he will read this and give us the source so we can see if his interpretation of the news is correct, and if this applies to all 50 states. If so, that would be great.
TagMan
Very true. My XKR is capable of 0-60 in 5.5, but its definitely not head snapping. Because of the gearing, its practically impossible to get the XKR to spin its wheels. Power comes on in a huge rush after about 20mph. A clutch drop launch in a 6.0 or even 6.5 second car could produce more of an effect.
However, you were only guilty of bad pasting.
Good excuse!
So according to you we cannot take these positive A8L reviews seriously
It is not a hard thing to do for the A8L to do better in reveiws than the 7 series especially when the 7 series is close to the tail end of its product cycle and soon will be replaced by a new generation model that will put the A8L in its place.
Toyota's Lexus also has BMW in its sights as it makes a move to gain in Europe with sportier, better-handling cars. "We will be challenged -- no question," says Reithofer. "We have to take Lexus seriously."
Tagman,
Reithofer was certainly not referring to a Lexus threat in terms of performance or handling. The Lexus IS, GS, LS and their SUVs are not able to out-handle or outperform BMW 3 , 5, 7 series and X5/X3 SUVs.
What I believe he is refering to is the following:
Vögel says the next generation of BMW 5 Series and 7 Series sedans will be the most Net-savvy cars on the road.
Who in this forum is impressed with BMW electronics like idrive? Nobody I presume! And who in this forum honestly believes that BMWs will be more Net-Savvy than Lexuses? Nobody?
In terms of electronic gadgetry I think Toyota will be able to out-spend and out-innovate BMW with no problem. It is in electronics that BMW is threatened by Lexus and I believe that BMW is trying a bit too hard with these endeavors. Their focus should be on cars that make driving enjoyable and certainly not cars that are equipped with the contents of a Best Buy Store.
an onboard computer that will recognize you, then seek out information you want and entertainment you love.
I dont know about you but would you like a HAL-type computer in your car that practically knows what music you want to hear right here and now without even pushing a button or saying anything? I certainly dont! And what if the computer malfunctions and plays Eminem instead of a Schubert Violin Concerto? D-I-S-A-S-T-E-R!
I just want a car that performs and handles well. If I want a mind reader I can just go to my local psychic.
As for the 7-Series putting the A8L in its "place", is very unlikely to occur. The A8 has surpassed the 7-Series for good as has every other HELM. There is no way BMW is better than Audi in any respect these days as both are very equally matched with each doing certain things better than the other. This is more of brand cultural values in terms what each brand perceives is important to it.
Fair enough! Both marques have their different strengths which attracts different types of buyers. Both have their inferiorities and superiorities.
In fact the frustratingly complex iDrive resulted in the 550i losing by 1 point to the winning M45 Sport in its latest "upscale sedans" comparo.
The Lexus 450h came in dead last in an absolutely scathing review-nothing good was said about this vehicle.
They didn't like the MB E550 much either.
I will take another long hard look at the Infiniti next year.
I agree that BMWs outhandle Lexus vehicles across the board. But, Reithofer's words were exactly as follows:
Toyota's Lexus also has BMW in its sights as it makes a move to gain in Europe with sportier, better-handling cars. "We will be challenged -- no question," says Reithofer. "We have to take Lexus seriously."
His words regarding Lexus were "sportier better-handling cars". In my opinion, he was referring to performance. That's what "better-handling" is about, as I understand it.
In other words, Lexus vehicles aren't "better-handling" than BMWs, they are "better-handling" than previous Lexus vehicles . . . which he further explains makes them something to be aware of.
TagMan