High End Luxury Cars

esf · October 2006

I always knew that Audi was a Tier 1 and was the third-largest luxury automaker in the world, but I had no idea that Audi was on its way to be No. 1 in Europe.

China, I know of- there's 2 Audi A6s for every 1 BMW sold there! Just A6s!

But, CarSpace is a welcome change from the grueling, never-ending flame wars of AutoSpies (go to it; it's terrible).

Audi has set its clear target: they are upping the ante in advertising here, as shown by the Q7 ads, and they want to be No. 1 in the world by 2015. There's a large chance they'll be at least in 2nd by then, as all three of the Germans are pretty much neck-and-neck in the top spots right now.

esf · October 2006

The 525i is pathetic. Lexus can do better than that.

Any man who drives a 525i/xi and calls himself a car enthusiast is sadly mistaken.

'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG  '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet  '03.5 Lexus RX330 <---Soon to be replaced

hpowders · October 2006

So, if a 2007 BMW 525i appeared in your garage tomorrow, you wouldn't attempt to drive it, because you would feel too embarrassed?

dewey · October 2006

1. BMW is a HELM
2. No shaking boots.

At least we got point one established.

The "shaking boots" part is fully my responsibility and I have no proof whatsoever that the the CEO of BMW shakes in his boots or even wears boots. But I do detect some Lexus anxiety from the following quote:

One BMW staffer who has worked with the new CEO Reithofer says he "never spoke about Mercedes. He was always looking over his shoulder at Toyota.

Over the next decade, BMW expects Lexus and Infiniti brands to set up plants in Europe and then hire German engineers to work on building cars with BMW-like handling. Within five years, predicts Reithofer, it could be "Lexus that we will be most busy competing with.

dewey · October 2006

Houdini that is just one survey on VALUE . You conveniently forgot the most important Strategic Vision survey that measures the most important measurement of owning a car: SATISFACTION.

And BMW is number one in terms of satisfaction. Hyundais ,Lexuses and Honda Civics provide value. Based on Strategic Visions surverys car owners are more satisfied with overpriced BMWs than with bland value cars like Lexuses. You want value go to Lexus. You want satisfaction go to BMW. Personally I prefer satisfaction over value any day. :P

San Diego-based Strategic Vision surveyed more than 64,000 people who purchased new vehicles from October 2005 to March 2006. Participants were questioned after 90 days of ownership. The study, separate from Strategic Vision's quality survey, tries to capture whether consumers believe they got their money's worth and factors in emotional components.

Overall, BMW AG outperformed all companies, including Honda, but because it sells only luxury vehicles and the Mini sports coupe and convertible, it is not considered a full-line automaker.

dewey · October 2006

a frenzy over sales and the fatuous desire for Lexus to increase prices.

Show me a community that prays for higher car prices other than the one that exists in Lexus forums and I will show you a community that lives comfortably in padded cells. I can assure you Porsche drivers are not unique in complaining about high prices.

dewey · October 2006

So, If a 2007 525i magically appeared in your garage, you wouldn't drive it because you would feel too embarrassed?

Only if your 545i is beside me at a red traffic light. I would make an illegal U turn with the 525i and drive away in complete humiliation and despair.

tagman · October 2006

Dewey, I'm familiar with the BusinessWeek article . . . heck, I posted it. I believe the proper interpretation is that Reithofer is aware of the intentions of Lexus and he has expressed his concern. He shows a realistic and yet balanced perspective, IMO.

Let's just say . . . no boot shaking . . . but he's not in denial.

I'm finding your recent posts interesting, because you and I went around quite a bit on the LS board (before we got "transferred"), and you now seem to have come around to the idea that Lexus is indeed something for BMW to be concerned about.

Some other thoughts to toss around . . .

Personally, I do not see Lexus stopping any time in the immediate future. Long-term, however, I'm not as sure. I am starting to wonder about them pricing themselves too high. (Maybe Doc and friends have shared their Kool-aid with Lexus headquarters.) They do seem to be getting a bit "full of themselves" . . . a little too cocky and arrogant for their own good perhaps.

Arrogance is usually a sign of a future downturn in real-life business models.

Once Lexus discards the "value" card, it's a whole new ball game, IMO.

TagMan

hpowders · October 2006

Heh! Heh! Sometimes I catch people in the parking lot heading behind me to see which 5 Series I have. I do enjoy that.

But, Dewey, you and I both know there are a lot of folks out there who would be thrilled to be driving a 525i. I mean, it's a BMW! And I personally would rather drive the roomy 525i with its 50/50 front/rear perfectly balanced weight distribution, than a cramped Lexus IS. Once you get the 525i up to speed, it is a lot of fun!

dewey · October 2006

Tagman,

Obviously I do not believe the new LS and the GS and IS are serious competitiors to the German marques.

Previouly I had doubted Lexus would try to build cars like BMWs. Why would they anyways when they have a vast number of soft luxury-riding fans? But based on the Businessweek article my doubts appear to be wrong. Especially if Lexus builds a factory not far from BMW factories and starts raiding BMW talent. European built Lexuses for the European market will have to handle superlatively with stiffer rides in order to be received well in Europe. And if that is the case then BMW and the other German marques will start losing their distinctive reputations in terms of producing the greatest handlers in the luxury/performance segment.

dewey · October 2006

I definitely would choose an underpowered 5 series over a more powerful Lexus GS anyday.

A BMW 525i vs. a Infiniti M35 is another story altogether. In that case I would pick the M35. But I would change my mind and favor a BMW if it turned out to be a 530i.

brightness04 · October 2006

I was not the one who first brought in the commodized view of engineers in here . . . you were, when you described engineers as "German engineers" vs. "Japanese engineers" Obviously, when taken in those terms, the implication is that there is such a thing as indistinguishable German engineers and indistinguishable Japanese engineers. If you want to talk about individual talent, then drop the German and Japanese labels, talk about individuals. Otherwise, you are treating them as commodity items.

The reality, IMHO, engineering is a classic case of 1% doing 99% of the innovation. Regardless German or Japanese engineer pool, 99% of them are just run of the mill staff members that keep the ship running ho hum . . . it's the 1% that brings us truely great innovations every once in a while. For that very reason, engineers who are worthy of being transplantted half way across the world are very rare; that's why most engineering staff are usually hired locally.

CEO of BMW would like to project the company as some kind of engineering-centric company. . . it is not. The Quandt family has final say on what product gets made at BMW, not the engineers, not even the management like most car companies.

brightness04 · October 2006

Using interior room as the yard stick to assure that 525i beats IS is a bit like the old joke of some bloke bragging about beating the chess champion and the tennis champion in one day: by playing chess wit the tennis champ and tennis with the chess champ.

brightness04 · October 2006

Lexus/Toyota's modus operandi is dominating 60% of an existing market, then 60% of the remaining 40%, so on and so forth. Lexus/Toyota can do this because its forte is execution in detail.

European and American manufacturers' forte is creating new market segments. SUV, Minivan, luxury sports sedan, etc., nonoe of were serious market propositions before the rise of Toyota and Honda in the mid 80's.

houdini1 · October 2006

You don't seem to understand. We are talking about the exact same survey!! You are quoting from what someone wrote about the survey in Forbes. I am quoting from a straight newspaper article. Apparently two differing viewpoints.

pat · October 2006

By the way, a HELM is the brand, not the car.

Can be either. From the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language:

marque (märk) n. A model or brand of a manufactured product, especially an automobile. [French, from Old French. See MARQUETRY].

hpowders · October 2006

I know what you are saying but given the choice between a 525i and an M35, I would have to go with the 525i because even though the M provides more power, the M's steering isn't as good, nor is the weight distribution. The M feels like it is: a heavy car. The 525i does not. Also, I don't think I could get used to the constant loud rasp of the M's engine.

hpowders · October 2006

on the Lexus website, that the cheapest LS 460 in my area, MSRP's for about $69k. It includes the nav and ML audio.
I figure next year at this time after it all calms down, it should be available for around $63k, pretty much a 9% discount, like the LS430 was.

dewey · October 2006

You don't seem to understand. We are talking about the exact same survey!!

Houdini,

Strategic Vision has many other different automobile surveys. Forbes is reporting their satisfaction survey and your post is reporting their value survey.

These are two very different surveys with two very different results.

Strategic Vision Satisfaction survey--BMW is #1
Strategic Vision Value survey --Lexus is #1

hpowders · October 2006

Funny, though. Given the great performance of BMW vehicles and their appealing lease deals, BMW is actually a better value than any corresponding Lexus vehicle.
To find anything comparable in driving excitement, you have to start shopping Porsche and a big price jump. No lease deals there!

BMW should have easily won in both Strategic Vision surveys.

houdini1 · October 2006

Dewey,

Obviously they do more than one survey but in this case I think we are talking about the same survey. Think about it. Even the Forbes article, which you posted, said they were measuring how SATISFIED the people were...THAT THEY GOT THEIR MONEY'S WORTH. And money's worth means VALUE. The article you read was info from the survey contained in an article in Forbes. The article I read was a newspaper article containing some of the info from the survey.

BMW won in two categories, near luxury (3 series) and small specialty (Mini) AND these two cars had the overall highest scores assigned to them of all the cars surveyed. There were about 15 or 20 categories, however, and Honda won more of the categories than anyone else. Presumably because they had cars entered in more categories. That may have been why your article stated that BMW had the highest scores but did not win overall because they are not a full line mfger(did not have entrants in many of the categories). The Lexus LS, Acura RL, and Audi 8 tied in the luxury class.

Anyway, I am not trying to be obstinate, but I do believe that two separate articles merely putting stress on two different WORDS in the same survey was the cause of this confusion.

pat · October 2006

The thing I don't understand - and am surprised that no one has brought up - is how is it that a survey of how satisfied a consumer is after 90 days of ownership can give any indication of reliability. Seems to me that, by definition, reliability has to be for way longer than 90 days. I suppose you can measure satisfaction and value after 90 days, but I still think that 90 days is a heckuva short evaluation period for any of this.

houdini1 · October 2006

Pat,

They were not measuring reliability at all, just satisfaction as to whether or not they got their money's worth. Reliability was not a part of the survey.

merc1 · October 2006

Yes Audi's advertising and promotion could use a good tearing apart/rebuild couldn't it?

They have to seperate themselves from VW much the way MB does from Chrylser and Lexus does with Toyota. This goes for styling options, marketing, dealers, and even some engineering that was once exclusive to Audi, altho on that one, they're on the right track developing cars that will be Audi only.

Yes, this is exactly what I'm saying here.

M

merc1 · October 2006

Hey I still like the company, but I'm a realist. I'm not one of those Lexus fanatics with blinders on who thinks that Toyota will one day be the world's only car company.

How refreshing!

M

merc1 · October 2006

In short, don't let this one get away. I'm pretty sure Merc would tell you the same thing, right Merc?!

Correct! How are the S600 and S8 BTW?

M

blckislandguy · October 2006

The irony of course is that while Bimmer because of their subvented leases may be a better value, this is only if you lease. For someone who doesn't want to step on to a 24 or 36 month rental treadmill, a BMW may not be the best deal. Rather a 3 year old XJ or, next year, a 3 year old 997 or A8, look far more appealing.

merc1 · October 2006

Please don't make me laugh. BMW only has one vehicle that even qualifies as a helm. The 7 series is the only true luxury auto that they build, and it is the tail end charlie of this group.

If that is the case then Lexus is out too. If the 3-Series isn't a luxury vehicle, neither is the IS. If the 5-Series isn't a luxury vehicle then neither is the GS and so on. The 6-Series is most certainly pricier than the SC430 and Lexus has nothing to touch any M product so your reasoning doesn't make Lexus out to be a "HELM" either.

In the real world BMW is much more of a "high-end luxury marque" than Lexus is.

Lexus doesn't even provide a full model range of vehicles like BMW or Mercedes. Lexus is still all sedans and suvs with one coupe/convertible that drives like a sedan. How in the world is that a true HELM? No lineup that boring, staid and lacking for choice can be a true HELM. Being a "high-end luxury marque" is much more than having a sedan that sells for a certain price. That is another thing that doesn't make any sense either. The outgoing LS430 doesn't even sell for 7-Series prices either, so again what makes Lexus a "HELM"? The LS460 just came on the scene.

M

merc1 · October 2006

Well, if you want to count the Mini and the 3 series as luxury autos I suppose you can, but I don't. Take their sales out and you don't have much left.

Yet you'd still have more than Lexus does worldwide I'm betting. This nonsense theory about BMW not being a HELM or barely being one falls apart the more you look at it. If we have to take out 3-Series sales then we have to take out IS/ES sales also, ditto for GS and 5-Series sales since according to you only the LS and 7-Series count. The 7-Series outsells the LS worldwide and the Lexus SC doesn't have a prayer against the 6-Series.

BMW breaks out their sales in many ways and MINI isn't even being used to make the case for their numbers worldwide.

M

pat · October 2006

The reason I said that, and I don't mean to pick on anyone here, is that dewey said "So it appears reliability issues may not affect the satisfaction of car ownership as much as what you would think" in the post that started this conversation: dewey, "High End Luxury Marques" #19747, 11 Oct 2006 10:17 am.

I meant what I said - I don't understand why everyone is taking as gospel a survey on ANY quality after only 90 days. When I buy a car I expect to own it for a lot longer than 90 days so my impression of it from every angle is continuously being formed. It might be one thing after 30 days, another after 90 days and a whole different one after a year or two.

blkhemi · October 2006

The S8 is still getting a complete workout as I simply can't stop driving it.

The S600 is supposed to port here on the 30th. Hopefully by the first week of Nov, I can report to you how the V12 simply can't be touched. :P

blkhemi · October 2006

And Pat, for this reason, as I've preached for so long on this very forum, I don't put much weight on Strategic Vision, JDP, Consumer Reports or any of those so called "info-hubs" as they're completely in the dark about what a car is really like

Especially the one that has "black dots" on a car before it hits the roads as this is what they project it to be....

merc1 · October 2006

Scathing post.

This goes back to what I've been saying all along. All this about sales and Toyota's might is beyond irrelevant to most buyers, even Toyota/Lexus buyers. You remember the long "discussions" I had with 2 Lexus fans in particular who tried to convince us that joe public the average luxury car buyer cared about Toyota's financials and what their CEO said or what rival carmarker did or didn't make each quarter and what their CEOs said? All of that stuff was so matterless as we now see. According to some of them Mercedes would be finished by now because of all the bad press they got a couple of years ago, yet sales are up every month.

Then we were told about how certain Lexi would rule certain market segments and yet when it didn't happen we got the usual "I never said that" or a general retreat from all the hype, especially about the IS and GS. Remember how the GS hybrid was supposed to be oh-so-damaging to the mid-level luxury class? Turns out the car isn't produced in enough numbers and is so seriously flawed it can't get out of last place. I haven't seen any variant of the GS ever place last in a comparo until the 450h.

Lastly you have the sale angle. This was always played up as being some type of way to gauge whether or not a Lexus was "better" than the competition, but yet the cars like the GS, SC still don't outsell their competition from Germany. The LS outsold the competition based on a huge price advantage that it took Lexus head guy to admit that it made a difference! You got no "amens" after that statement came out, but before everything the other Lexus guy said (Clements) was supposed to be good enough to be put in a stone tablets.

Now I'm reading about a super Lexus sedan and that the GS is due for some major change in 2-3 years. Nevermind that in 2-3 years the GS will be due for a change or needing one, yet this this hyped up as something revolutionary.

All this Lexus hype that doesn't amount to much reminds me of how GM supporters fall into the same trap only to have to back track later on.

M

merc1 · October 2006

Just imagine, instead, that the vast majority of Lexus buyers were in a frenzy over sales, freaked out about the Lexus image, and insisted that Lexus raise its prices.

Well some of them seem to want both, raised prices and more sales, but then they're asking for exclusivity too. Can't and won't happen. 40K LS460s a year mean "exclusivity" goes out the window for the almighty sales press release!

M

dewey · October 2006

meant what I said - I don't understand why everyone is taking as gospel a survey on ANY quality after only 90 days.

I agree 90 days does not mean much for me because I own my cars for about six to seven years. But the fact is automakeres use JD and Vision 90 day statistics in their advertisements to tout how wonderful their cars are.

maxhonda99 · October 2006

I don't think 40K LS460's is possible, especially at $80K!

More like 30K is possible.

BTW, If 40K isn't exclusive, is 30K exclusive?

Let's stop spinning people's posts as is usual with this general crowd. Nobody ever said Benz or even implied Benz or BMW would go out of business because of Lexus growth.

There is room for everyone in the market.

As usual read posts as they are instead of spinning posts.

Yeah, I know, it ain't gonna happen.

dewey · October 2006

This argument is like flogging a dead horse to a finish line. Where is this leading to anyways?

You dont believe that BMW is a luxury marque?

You dont believe the results of a satisfaction survey and try to dilute its significance by stating that BMW is number one because of the MINI and 3 series while in fact the survey itself states no such thing?

What exactly is your point?

merc1 · October 2006

Let's stop spinning people's posts as is usual with this general crowd. Nobody ever said Benz or even implied Benz or BMW would go out of business because of Lexus growth.

Then you haven't been paying attention to this forum for the last few years. This has been implied over and over and everytime a new Lexus appears it is at the demise of Lexus. You'd have to have been away for months at a time a number of times to not have seen this.

The average LS460 still starts out in the 60's and we don't know what the average one will sell for yet so the 80K comment is just a guess at best.

30K units is more exclusive than 40K units.

M

drfill · October 2006

I'll take the bait.

Merc and Dewey

I'm a very positive Lexus fans, but I'm more than willing to look for ways to improve.

Considering the fact that Lexus has been the #1 selling lux marque in the US for several years, Lexus vehicles have gotten MUCH better with redesigned ES, IS and LS models.

The GS is nothing special, but the 3.5 helps. As I've said on many occassions, I'd rather they built something along the controversial lines of the 5-series, which wasn't exactly welcomed with open arms a few years ago. It's a decent car, but a hedged bet, and Lexus at least seems to be admitting as much. They see the accolades the M gets, even with rather tasteless styling, and it is being taken seriously against the 5-series.

Maybe the Next GS will be a bigger IS? Which is what was, and is required. They are, at best, dissimilar, and it shows in market share.

The GS450h is fast, and it is efficient, but it doesn't seem to have anymore tricks up it's sleeve, and it certainly isn't dynamic like M45 and 550i.

The IS is nothing short of a success, with some small caveats. The nits are VDIM (fixed), rear seat room (a deal breaker for many, I'm sure), and the manual 350 issue, which doesn't seem to be an issue for cars like G35 and 330/335i. I think a lot of marques would like to call an IS their own. And it is a definite sighn that Lexus can build stylish, desirable cars, regardless of price of class. I'm expecting greatness from the IS Hardtop Conv. :shades:

The SC is another very successful car for Lexus, but it should evolve into something more dynamic and, interactive. And yes, I still find the car attractive, to this day, inside and out. But it is not SL. But it doesn't need to be.

I want the HPX produced, which seems to be in the cards, the future GX and LX to get fold-flat rear seats, and no Rav4 derivitive taking on RDX/X3. Not worth it.

Regarding what seem to be issues with my posts regarding sales, exclusivity, and price, Lexus goes as the LS goes.

Lexus NEEDS the LS to use it's valuable name and market recognition to cover the $65-100k premium lux class, and the New LS is more than capable of doing that.

It WILL appeal to current customers, and obtain conquest sales.

It WILL sell more than the S-Class next year. As it should.

It WILL be the best car Lexus has ever made, and WILL raise the image and cache of Lexus, as a whole.

Sales will rise considerably, as have prices. So Lexus will have problems establishing exclusivity, but the LS600 will make that approach.

The ES and LS are outstanding vehicles, and will accomplish Lexus goals.

Hopefully, future redesigns of the GS and SC will be as exciting and impactful as the IS and LS. I believe Lexus knows what needs to be done.

I have no comment on any rumors above the LS600.

Raising Lexus LS prices is good to for long-term business, and will help the marque's desirablity. The LS460 will continue being an excellent value, and is now a real threat to LWB S550.

DrFill

tagman · October 2006

I meant what I said - I don't understand why everyone is taking as gospel a survey on ANY quality after only 90 days. When I buy a car I expect to own it for a lot longer than 90 days so my impression of it from every angle is continuously being formed. It might be one thing after 30 days, another after 90 days and a whole different one after a year or two.

Very true, Pat. Good point.

It would seem, however, that if a buyer has initial regrets (buyer's remorse) about the purchase, it will typically happen within 90 days. Additionally, production issues and defective parts/assembly issues will very often show up early on.

The focus on the vehicle is intensified during the initial days and weeks, and a more significant overall opinion of the vehicle is being formed . . . one that goes past the initial love affair in the showroom.

So, there is definately merit to both the initial quality and satisfaction of a vehicle.

The long-term reliability is different, and overall, it represents one of the most important pieces of data about a vehicle. This is why Consumer reports has such an impact, even though they incorrectly "project" reliability at times. For the most part, however, CR provides important insight into many vehicle's likely reliability.

Long-term satisfaction would be yet another measurement, because even if the reliability were somewhat compromised, but the owenr just loved the way the vehicle performed or satisfied many other various conditions for ownership, then that owner could be very satisfied independent of reliability.

Reliability is only one measurement of what makes a vehicle satisfy the needs of the owner, and as we can see, satisfaction and reliability can both change independently over time.

So, yes, 90 days is important, but of course so is 1 year, 2 years, and even well beyond.

TagMan

hpowders · October 2006

Since over the years I have not been willing to bet on the long term reliability of BMW vehicles, leasing is the best way to go for me. The vehicles are covered by an excellent warranty. There are low monthly payments thanks to BMWFS' artificially high residuals. I give the vehicle back after three years having enjoyed a great trouble-free driving experience and then move onto the next confounding version of iDrive!

I have leased 3 BMW vehicles. No reliability issues.
Only oil changes accompanied by Famous Amos cookies and delicious coffee while I wait.

I will be doing 2 year leases in the future. BMW leasing deals have been incredible over 24 months ( with residuals of 70% in some cases) and of course, it will allow me drive more vehicles over the years.

tagman · October 2006

over the years I have not been willing to bet on the long term reliability of BMW vehicles

Hard to understand, especially since you also say this:

I have leased 3 BMW vehicles. No reliability issues.

So, if you are not basing your impressions upon personal experience, are you using your favorite Consumer Reports or something?

I've read many of your posts, especially to some of the Lexus reliability fanatics, whereby you swear by the reliability of BMW vehicles. Surely you must have faith in the reliability of the BMWs.

TagMan

hpowders · October 2006

Leasing for 3 years is not long term to me. Is it to you?
Long term to me is anything outside of warranty-these days 5 years and out.
I have no faith whatsoever in holding a BMW for some 5-10 years when I could press the iDrive controller and get a "ding dong" or "tilt" or whatever.

I have also posted somewhere that if I was going to buy a vehicle and hold it for some 5-10 years, it would probably be a Lexus, not a BMW. Since I have yet to find a Lexus with the exception of the GS 300 that I find even mildly interesting, I will continue happily to lease BMWs.

I have expressed this opinion several times: I have absolutely no faith in BMW reliability over the long term.

Dewey, Rich545 and I have had arguments over this point in the past-they "for" and me "against." Rich545 mentioned with pride that every BMW he has driven, he has owned. He obviously has a greater tolerance for risk than I have.

tagman · October 2006

Thanks for the clarity. I appreciate it.

As I think about it, the tire-screeching, neck-snapping manner in which you drive could definately challenge a vehicle to outlast a short-term lease.

TagMan

hpowders · October 2006

"Thanks for the clarity."

Always a pleasure!

Well, I have yet to lease a vehicle where I did not have to change the tires at around 20,000 miles. One thing about BMW's-you never hear those tires squeal.

I hope Lexus has some extra tires handy at the Taste because I do plan on putting some wear and tear on the LS.

From autobytel.com regarding the apparently much improved 2007 ES 350:

"Lexus says that the completely re-designed 2007 ES 350 is a better car in every way than the original Lexus LS 400, calling it faster, quieter and more powerful" than the original LS 400. "Just don't expect sporty handling."

But, if you want a very comfortable car loaded to the gills with every conceivable option including the 14 speaker ML stereo, DVD, ventilated seats, NAV, Bluetooth, pre-collision system and a beautiful interior, for about $45k MSRP that Lexus says is better than the original LS, instead of the current equivalent LS version for about $75k, well, there you go.

Looks like I will be checking out 2 cars at the Taste: the LS and ES. Should be an interesting comparison.
Whether either vehicle will convert me, that is a different story.

tagman · October 2006

Looks like I will be checking out 2 cars at the Taste: the LS and ES. Should be an interesting comparison.

Of course that's going to build up a larger appetite.

TagMan

hpowders · October 2006

That really shows how far Lexus has evolved-a 2007 entry-level luxury sedan is better in every way than its 1990 flagship HELM, this admission from the company, but unfortunately one thing has remained the same (according to autobytel), Lexus still can't get it to drive with any pizazz.

maxhonda99 · October 2006

I think just as some Lexus fans over exagerate, so do you. They say "BMW better watch out" or "BMW's market share is shrinking" and others spin it as "BMW is going to go bankrupt".

Just because I don't post, doesn't mean I don't read.

The LS460 is on the Lexus website, it says the cheapest one I can get in my area is $80K, $71K for a base LS460L plus $9K for the first option package available.

Ultimately, the 1st few month's of LS460 sales will tell if people are going to fork over $80K for a LS460. I think the majority of LS460 sales will be the L version much like S-class sales used to be dominated by the longer versions when they used to make a short and long wheelbased version. The LS definately is moving closer to S-class territory, but IS almost identically priced to the BMW 745.

I'm sorry, 30K is not exclusive and 40K is definately not exclusive. I'm sorry to break the news to you, but cars from Mercedes, BMW, Lexus just aren't exclusive by any means!

maxhonda99 · October 2006

"Lexus still can't get it to drive with any pizazz. "

Boy, you must have missed the point of the ES!

Do you keep thinking everybody on this planet wants BMW 3-series handling??

You must of missed years of Lexus having 2 totally different sedans in the same price range...one front wheel drive and the size of a Acura TL and the other the size of a BMW 3-series and RWD!

hpowders · October 2006

No. I certainly do understand. I was just speaking for myself.

I wrote above that those looking for a very comfortable luxury sedan with most of the pampering Lexus options, need not spend $75k. They can "have it all" with the ES 350 for about $30k less than the LS 460. I'm just saying that the car is not really meant for me because it probably isn't sporty enough. So what? It's Lexus' biggest selling car isn't it? Just behind the RX for total sales. If I am one of those Lexus people, after reading Lexus' admission that this car is better than the LS 400 in every way, I would be running to my Lexus dealer to check it out.

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