Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Most popular vehicles
Popular New Cars
- New Acura MDX
- New Acura RDX
- New Audi Q5
- New BMW 3 Series
- New BMW X3
- New Buick Enclave
- New Cadillac Escalade
- New Chevrolet Equinox
- New Chrysler 300
- New Dodge Challenger
- New Ford Edge
- New Ford Escape
- New Ford Expedition
- New Ford Explorer
- New Ford F-150
- New Ford Focus
- New Ford Mustang
- New Honda Accord
- New Honda Civic
- New Honda CR-V
- New Honda Fit
- New Honda Odyssey
- New Honda Pilot
- New Hyundai Elantra
- New Hyundai Santa Fe
- New Hyundai Sonata
- New Hyundai Tucson
- New Jeep Compass
- New Jeep Grand Cherokee
- New Jeep Wrangler
- New Mazda 3
- New Mazda 6
- New Mazda CX-5
- New Nissan Altima
- New Nissan Maxima
- New Nissan Rogue
- New Porsche Cayenne
- New Ram 1500
- New Subaru Crosstrek
- New Subaru Forester
- New Subaru Impreza
- New Subaru Outback
- New Tesla Model S
- New Tesla Model X
- New Toyota 4Runner
- New Toyota Camry
- New Toyota Corolla
- New Toyota Highlander
- New Toyota Prius
- New Toyota RAV4
- New Toyota Sienna
- New Toyota Tacoma
- New Volkswagen Jetta
- New Volvo XC60
- New Volvo XC90
Popular Used Sedans
- Used BMW 5 Series
- Used Chevrolet Impala
- Used Chevrolet Malibu
- Used Chrysler 200
- Used Dodge Charger
- Used Ford Fusion
- Used Ford Taurus
- Used Honda Accord
- Used Honda Civic
- Used Hyundai Elantra
- Used Hyundai Sonata
- Used Tesla Model S
- Used Toyota Camry
- Used Toyota Corolla
- Used Volkswagen Jetta
Popular Used SUVs
- Used Acura MDX
- Used Acura RDX
- Used Ford Edge
- Used Ford Explorer
- Used Honda CR-V
- Used Honda Pilot
- Used Hyundai Santa Fe
- Used Jeep Compass
- Used Lincoln Navigator
- Used Mazda CX-5
- Used Nissan Rogue
- Used Subaru Crosstrek
- Used Subaru Forester
- Used Tesla Model X
- Used Volvo XC90
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
If Lexus can do it with the interiors, why not the exteriors?
Your point?
Was BMW sweating and struggling with their Acousitic engineering and soft leather engineering. Imagine that?
Actually yes. BMW charges extra for the privillages of have real leather (not even all that soft) and higher end accoustics (not even all that good by compeition standards). They are on the option list along with bigger engine and sport suspension.
Space ship? I thought BMW's primary design goal is sticking to the ground. Levitation or partial levitation is a bad thing for automobiles.
Just as you had said in a previous post: BMW is a firm of marketing geniuses.
Why not charge more when you can charge more? Why give it away for free when your customers are most willing to pay extra for leather seats, metallic paint, a auto tranny and an improved audio system that is not even considered as good as the standard stereos of its competitors? BMW is certainly not in the business of giving away things. At least not as good in giving away things like their competitiors.
LS and S class are the main volume seller of the respective platforms, whereas SC and SL are more of a spin-off. It's a bit like the 5 vs. M5 or E/S vs AMG variants. One is for volume sales, whereas the other is a bit of a marketing tool. I always wondered if M5 or E/S AMG ever made money for either of the car makers. For a first attempt, SC has not done too badly for Lexus. On the other hand, Lexus probably has realized by now that a car like Z4 makes far more money for the company than something like the SL. The key is how to sell a not too expensive model in a lot of copies without diluting brand identity. BMW has shown the way in the past couple decades.
Overseas the Audi brand is as strong as BMW or MB. But not necessarily in terms of luxury. The one reason Audis have a strong image overseas is based on their understated designs , their renowned top notch "fit and finish interiors", unique technologies, perfromance and last but not least their understated image .
No the last words on the above paragraph are not there in error. In the past Audi has never tried to out-Bling their more ostentatious and conventional competitors like BMW, MB and Lexus. In fact Audi's understated image is one reason why I think Audis are far more successful overseas. People living beyond our shores are less concerned about image than us North Americans. (MB sold luxury for decades in Europe while every street there is covered with MB taxis). Just imagine what would happen to MB and Lexus sales if every other taxi is a Benz or Lexus in North America?
The image of Audi is strong overseas mainly because they are considered a maker of good performaing cars for people who do not seek security and acceptance with establish luxury marques like BMW or MB.
Although I am not denying there are image seekers overseas, they're just not as prevalent there as they are here in North America. And that is the reason why Audis sell better overseas.
I prefer BMW cars over Audis but at the same time I prefer the low profile marketing of Audis.
In fact an Audi is an anti-Lexus. An Audi is all substance with little image. While Lexus is all-image with little substance.
To prove my point have you seen or heard the latest ads from Lexus. The Moments ads and in Canada there are ads "About the Most Important Things in your Life". Unfortantely both those ads have nothing to do with Lexus cars. As I said Lexus is all about image and little substance (and what little substance there is I still cant find ) :confuse:
SOURCE:FORTUNE
link title
Very big statement, dewey.
If you are going to go down that path . . . here's another way to put it . . .
Lexus is all sizzle without the steak, while Audi is all steak without the sizzle. :shades:
Good luck.
TagMan
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
One, Lexus had much higher expections of GS than Infiniti of M, I think, about 3 to 2. M exceeded expectations, GS fell short.
Two, initially, GS outsold M by quite a lot. Now, they're even.
Three, GS is doing its customary sales nosedive right on schedule, but still has a way to go. It did it twice before!
Internal errors and missteps on AoAs part in the US, does not represent the core of Audi substance or culture in terms of its premier status on a world scale.
Plenty of "sizzle" in an R8, S6, S8, RS4, upcoming RS6 (now being tested in Germany -debut Geneva 2007 with 530-550 bhp), and the list goes on....
When Johnny Carson was still host of the Tonight Show, he was teasing actor Paul Newman (one of my all-time favorites) about fooling around with some of the beautiful women co-stars.
Newman replied "Why would I fool around with hamburger when I've got steak at home?"
TagMan
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I was starting to get concerned about you! Are you usually this slow?"
Actually I think it's the opposite!
You don't have to be a design genius to see the rear resemblances among the Camry, Avalon ES and LS."
Attention please: Get off of it.
If anything the Avalon lights resemble more of a Infiniti's lights. See the L-shaped design in the Avalon and Infiniti's??? Probably not. oh well.
And if you turned the Camry lights 180 degrees, they would look totally the opposite of the ES's talights. Any genius would notice the ES's tailights taper down as they curve and meet in the center of the trunklid. If you decided, for some stupid reason, to turn the Camry's tailights 180 degrees, the tailights would curve up as the tailights flowed towards the center of the rear decklid. Yeah, I know, that to you guys looks the same. oh well, I tried!! ! And the new LS's tailights look like the Camry's, or Avalon's, or for that matter, the ES's? Please tell, which way you would have to turn each cars lights to make it resemble a LS's tailights!!
About the tail lights:
You don't have to be a design genius to see the rear resemblances among the Camry, Avalon ES and LS.
"IMO,Lexus must break away once and for all from all this obvious Toyota-sharing and come up with their own unique innovative designs, drive trains, etc."
Sort of like DaimlerChrysler is doing with soo much of their products? Ever notice the rear most pillar on the R-class and Pacifica? Looks almost identical that one would think both are based off the same platform. How about the S-class side profile and rear end looking like a Maybach's? Wow! What innovation! Let's not forget the S-class's dashboard being a rip-off of the 7-series interior. Wow! more innovation. Hey, did you read the recent articles that more Mercedes-Benz's and Chrysler products will share engines & transmissions. You know what? that's just the beginning, after that here comes.......platform sharing! Pretty soon you might see a Grand Cherokee and M-class sharing common underpinnings! A E-class and the Chrysler 300 sharing underpinnings.
Oh wait, let's not forget about Audi & VW. Talk about how unique they are from each other. Let's see, TT based loosely on some VW architecture, either the A6 or A4 based loosely off the Passat platform, or vice versa(does it really matter), or the Q7 being based off the Toureg platform.
And you say Lexus brand will earn more respect and people will pay a bit more if they differentiate from Toyota.
Have you been living under a rock? A RX is priced right on top of a ML, the IS is priced right on top of a 3-series, the ES is priced just like a C-class, the LX470 costs $70K, and the LS460 now can cost upwards of $80K.
(1) In a society where buses and subways go everywhere people would normally go, taking taxi is the up-scale way of getting around without having to drive yourself. In many parts of Europe, a Benz taxi is not something you wave to stop by the side of the road like in the US; it's something you set appointment for, or have the conciege get one for you in front of the fancy hotel.
(2) There was a time when all VW and BMW offered were either too small or too unreliable as taxis. MB cornered the taxi market in Germany (see above, people did not need taxi to get around; they wanted taxi to get around in style)
(3) MB sell models there intended for fleet sales; they don't do that for the US market, for obvious reasons.
Americans are about average for image consciousness. Far more Rolls-Royces and S class are sold overseas than in the US.
Audi was the Lexus in marketing (minus the reliability reputation) before there was Lexus. It's a brand for selling VW parts bin for more money. Audi has a decent reputation for some parts of the world because it is the perennial forerunner in exploring new markets in the developing world. Compared to what had been available domesticly in those markets, Audi was the best brand available in many developing world markets before the likes of MB, BMW, Toyota and Honda get into those markets.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
That leads me to another point. Some talk about the sales disparity between the european products from Benz, etc. in Europe vs. Lexus. Let's get to the reality. A Benz in Europe covers the ground that a Camry and Lexus cover in the US. You can get a C-class with a 1.8L or so 4-banger, hubcaps, and cloth seats. In the not to distant past you could even get a 190 or C-class with roll up windows in Europe. In Europe these cars cover as taxi cabs, livery service, as well as police vehicles. As is the case with cars like the Ford Taurus' sales being inflated by fleet sales, the same is soo for especially Audi and Benz in Europe. Not to mention the earlier fact that one can buy a stripper C-class for a lot less than anyone can buy a IS for in Europe. This is one of the major factors why Lexus gets slaughtered in Europe. The other big factor is the European market demands loads of variations such as probably a half dozen plus different engines in the C-class, Toyota hasn't learned this yet. For Lexus to succeed they need broad engine varieties as well as broad price variations in Europe and a Diesel for every car line is a must. Something they seem to refuse to do as Hybrids just aren't going to cut it in Europe.
But the other fact is who cares if they don't cut it in Europe? Europeans are the total opposite of Americans. We'll buy anything from any country. Europeans are alot more protectionist and prefer to buy only cars from their own Country. A Chinese car will probably take a long time to gain traction in Europe, but it will take less than a decade for one to gain sales traction in the US.
Imagine that! Europeans appreciate diesel engines. Tell us more we don't know. :P
TagMan
I think they are working on it, but that kind of thing is going to take at least 10 years to implement. 10 years ago, the only Lexus that offered any kind of variety was the SC coupe, which had two engine choices and offered a 5-speed manual for a few years.
Today there is a lot more choice (especially if you include the '07 LS), but they still have a long way to go to match the kind of variety that BMW, Mercedes and Audi have.
Guess that makes me a stupid genius in-training! :P
What I did say is there is a little too much resemblance among the rears of the Camry, Avalon, ES and LS.
Lexus should make its designs more distinctive from Toyotas. Whether you happen to like it or not, it is a valid complaint, and it puzzles me that anyone would disagree with that.
But now when I visit many family members they live in the outskirts, shop in far away big box stores and have to travel on the highways to get to work. In otherwords their European lifestyle is beginning to resemble the lifestyle of many North Americans.
Ironically my European relatives view my lifestyle in midtown/downtown Toronto with nostalgia since I walk both to work and to nearby shops, theatres and restaurants.
Regarding your Audi views I beg to differ. Today's Audi is not like yesterday's Audi. Today there is only the A3 that shares a platform with VW. All other Audis are distinct and unique in their chassises and in most cases their drivetrains.
Guess that makes me a stupid genius in-training!
What I did say is there is a little too much resemblance among the rears of the Camry, Avalon, ES and LS.
Lexus should make its designs more distinctive from Toyotas. Whether you happen to like it or not, it is a valid complaint, and it puzzles me that anyone would disagree with that.
Well, it's a good morning. The first thing I see is that you and I are on the same page with this. Good post. And it's good to see you stick to your guns.
TagMan
overall the resemblance of the ES and LS to the Camry is undeniable.
It is not a question of being an Einstein or being a village idiot to figure that one out.
I agree one hundred percent with your observations.
I think you are right about this, but the recent "Audi" grill being used by VW seems to have caused a perception that there is more in common between Audi and VW than there actually is.
BTW, interesting stuff about your lifestyle.
TagMan
Personally I wish I could not see the luxury in BMW myself. I would prefer BMW just to focus on performance cars without entertainment electronic gizmos and without an interior that resembles my grandfather's library.
TagMan
As I approached, I noticed the Toyota emblem. It was a Camry!
This may be great for Toyota, not so good for Lexus.
The Japanese are much more disciplined and focused. Lexus's priority is to build the best built luxury cars, and it does it. Infiniti's priority is to build the best performance sedans that it can. They don't let themselves be distracted from their priorities, such as matching BMW M or producing outlandish expensive sports cars that find very few buyers.
You associate 38 miles a gallon with squirrel-driven subcompacts, not a powerful midsize luxury sedan. But that is the mileage the Mercedes test car delivered in 250 miles of highway cruising. The Bluetec also posted a thrifty 28 m.p.g. in the city. Both numbers exceeded the car’s federal rating of 37 on the highway, 27 in town.
Now, 208 horsepower may not sound that forceful. But take a look at the 400 pound-feet of torque, which exceeds that of the 500-horsepower BMW M5 sedan. Commanding torque — the thrust you feel when racing away from a stoplight — is the secret weapon of diesel engines. Abetted by a turbocharger in the E320 Bluetec, this results in swift 0-to-60 acceleration of 6.6 seconds.
For luxury buyers who have suddenly awakened to the imperatives of economy and conservation, this is a no-brainer bargain. With a base price of $52,325, Mercedes is charging just $1,000 extra for the frugal engine and Bluetec emissions system, compared with the gasoline V-6. Contrast that with the big premiums for luxury hybrids: the Lexus GS 450h costs $8,000 more than the gasoline V-6 version, yet its overall E.P.A. rating is just 1 m.p.g. higher, at 25.
In the real world, this means that in about two years you break-even with the Mercedes. In contrast, the owner of a Lexus GS 450h might as well be Rip Van Winkle: he will have to drive the car more than 130 years to get back the premium.
SOURCE:New York Times
One of the cars that got me most excited is an upcoming super gas efficient plug-in-hybrid Lexus or Toyota that can be powered solely by battery for the first 20 miles or so.
The above scenario was based on the use of lithium ion batteries instead of nickel carbide batteries. Unfortunatley that may happen later than sooner due to the lithium battery problems associated with burning/overheated laptops.
If you are worried that a laptop powered by a dozen lithium ion cells may burst into flames, how do you feel about cruising down the highway at 70 mph in a car powered by 6,000 of them?
Lithium ion batteries wont be overheated if they are 45 to 75 percent charged like the current nickel carbide batteries in the GS or Prius hybrids. But unfortunately a super efficient plug-in hybrid needs to be 100 percent fully charged in order to be solely powered by battery for longer range driving. And 100 percent charging could lead to overheated lithium ion batteries in cars. In otherwords dont expect to find many plug-in hybrids in a few years or so unless you are willing to spend a $12K premium:
A handful of companies, like A123 Systems and Valence Technology, are rushing to come up with safe lithium ion batteries specifically engineered for use in these vehicles. The big automakers won't be selling plug-in hybrids or all-electric vehicles soon, but tinkerer EnergyCS is developing a kit it hopes to sell for $12,000 or so that will replace the nickel metal hydride battery in Priuses with a plug-in lithium ion pack
SOURCE:FORBES
While the LS as far as I know have had no major tranny issues.
Acura is focused? Tunnel vision would be a more appropriate term. All Acura cars are based on the Accord platform. Acura is the only marque that claims to be a luxury marque without a V8 or RWD model. That IMO is far too focused for me.
Infiniti, I do admire for their performance. But again Infiniti's focus is too narrow to be called focus in a positive sense. How far can a luxury marque go with just two cars: a G and a M . Who on this planet takes the Q seriously anyways? Oh yes I know, I know there will be a new Q that will stand up high among its competitors. Well in that case I will have to see it to believe it.
The Lexus? Their focus is also too narrow and resembles tunnel vision. A luxury brand has to be international and not a mere one of a kind US phenemona. Lexus still has a long way to go to establish their marque overseas. Will Europeans like being groped by the seat of their pants and on their spines with that new massage LS feature? And what if their ticklish? In order to accomplish international success Lexus will have to define themselves beyond such gimmicks as electronic groping and a self parking feature that only works when there is a lot of parking space (unfortunatley when I parallel park my bumpers are usually kissing other bumpers)
And braking problems as well. As long as the LS continues to be built in Japan, it will be a cut above the entry level, NA built Lexus cars and trucks.
;-)
I would definitely not want to be charged with the task of making the Q into a sellable car. What I'm hoping they do is make a sort of "poor man's Quattroporte" (a.k.a a two year old Quattroporte) with a 4.7 or 4.8L V8 and 360+ hp. I would expect the car to top around $68K. A 6-speed auto is an absolute must have. The G and M may be able to squeak by with a 5-speed, but not the Q. The cruising gear cannot be .83+ in a luxury car. If they can do that, I'll definitely be interested. If not, no thanks.
As for sharing components between Audi and VW, A3 is a huge volume platform, everything from A3, to TT, Golf, Bug, Rabbit, etc. are all based on the same platform. The 1.8T, 2.0T and 3.6 engines are all shared between the two brands. So does Phaeton with A8/S8. A4, Passat and A6 still share a lot of parts. It would be crazy for VW/Audi not to share the parts bin. Multi-tiered marketting is the correct strategy for an industry that heavily depend on economy of scale. There is no shame in that. Wine makers learned to put the same wine in different bottles ages ago.
We're going to stop that. We need to stick to the actual cars that make up this segment and I would very much appreciate your cooperation.
Thanks!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
No stinkin' bank loans for me! (Places hands threateningly close to his 2 silver 6-shooters with the ivory handles).
Next time I will be trying something new: the 2 year lease.
That way I get re-embursement from BMWCCA every 2 years, which is anywhere from $500-$1000 and, even better, a brand new iDrive knob which doesn't have enough time to tarnish.
Of course the vehicle will be a BMW 7 Series, which happens to be a HELM, which happens to be both the vehicle and the company, and the topic of our discussion for the penultimate time.
Audi lacks focus? Let's see.
First, the Japanese may be the most lacking in the attentiveness category.
One, you have a car company that tells you that you don't need V8 or a 6 or 7 speed tranny. In North America? Then they're still selling cars that are based off of a $25k ride. This is Acura.
Two, Infiniti. This brand has two aces in the hole and we're supposed to go bungo? Paaaalllleeezzzzz. If not for the G and M, this company would be null and void as the QX is so problematic that they should've left it and it's 2 cousins in Mississippi. And I don't care what review says what about the FX, it ain't runnning an X5 Sport or 4.8is under the table. And the Q: Do they still make those laughable attempts in this day and age??
And Lexus: This is the big one. The most disciplined? What do you call selling a 10 year old SUV for 60 large? That's discipline? The RX is no longer the top dog in a category it help create. The SC is the laughing joke in it's class. The IS is close, but no cigar when paired with the 3 or G35S. The ES is still too much like a Camry. The GX sure is not a Toureag in terms of dynamics and overall satisfaction. And this model has not been able to live up to the reliablility MUST of Lexus brand cars, right along with it's platform mate, the 4-Runner.
Do I need to say more on this whole "discipline" thing? Fine, the GS is so ill-placed in Lexus'line-up(in it's class for that matter) that it needs to have a total redo like RIGHT NOW on a 2 year old car. The GS450h? What the #$(@ we're they thinking? And finally the LS. Now this is a touchy one, but that car isn't here yet, so here goes: This car has the most cushiest ride of it's peers. The build quality is great, if not best in class. The resale values are out of this world, and the car continues to get top spots on it's fav. journal. But the buck stops here. This car has the dynamics of a '79 Buick LeSabre(no pun intended). The seats are as flat as Nebraska. The wood is as shiny as Flava Flav's golden teeth. And to boot, nothing exciting really happened with the car in terms of new features and options during it's whole 6 year span.
Out goes that theory big time.
Audi, OTOH, is so meticulous in their work that they will pull a single car out of line if it's not done correctly.
The attention and execution of quality is so well done that rarely has a car come close to the details this company puts into every single model, rather base model or loaded up to your eyeballs.
That is discipline...
Even with the lumbar support my back was hurting, and I wasn't in either car for more than 10 minutes tops.
2. The Q45 is a nice luxury sedan just because it needs a redesign doesn't mean its bad.
3. I didn't know the NSX a supercar priced at 90K was based on an accord? The new NSX will have a V8 or V10. The RL is AWD and the new MDX is not based on any accord.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Here's the Hot Tip of the Day: No brand is 100% reliable, trouble- and maintenance-free.
Please take that with you as you continue talking about HELM vehicles. I don't think that anyone is going to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that one brand is, in all categories, universally, forever and ever amen, better than any other of all time.
Thanks for keeping the conversation civil, and creating a welcoming environment for any new members who might think of jumping in.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
Share your vehicle reviews
Please take that with you as you continue talking about HELM vehicles. I don't think that anyone is going to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that one brand is, in all categories, universally, forever and ever amen, better than any other of all time.
By golly . . . then I'll take one of each HELM please!
TagMan
I've personally never seen an Audi on a tow truck. Conversely, there was a GX and LS in the same day just yesterday.
Audi's sell poor here? And the line is forming for 2 years for these demented, unreliable, unusable, failures of cars? That's interesting that you say that as the A4 is still outselling the IS, the car that was supposed to be the dominator in this class. Cheap prices can't get you out of this one.
Ah, and let's not forget the "world's best selling luxury car", the Audi A6. So let me breakdown this down to lowest smallest form of math:
The world market, which includes the biggest of them all, the grand USA, gave the thrown of the world's best car to the A6. So yes, to answer(or correct you), the US does give a hoot about the Audi brand...
You really want to compare the A8 sales to LS sales in the U.S.? I didn't think so. Game, set, and match.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460