Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Most popular vehicles
Popular New Cars
- New Acura MDX
- New Acura RDX
- New Audi Q5
- New BMW 3 Series
- New BMW X3
- New Buick Enclave
- New Cadillac Escalade
- New Chevrolet Equinox
- New Chrysler 300
- New Dodge Challenger
- New Ford Edge
- New Ford Escape
- New Ford Expedition
- New Ford Explorer
- New Ford F-150
- New Ford Focus
- New Ford Mustang
- New Honda Accord
- New Honda Civic
- New Honda CR-V
- New Honda Fit
- New Honda Odyssey
- New Honda Pilot
- New Hyundai Elantra
- New Hyundai Santa Fe
- New Hyundai Sonata
- New Hyundai Tucson
- New Jeep Compass
- New Jeep Grand Cherokee
- New Jeep Wrangler
- New Mazda 3
- New Mazda 6
- New Mazda CX-5
- New Nissan Altima
- New Nissan Maxima
- New Nissan Rogue
- New Porsche Cayenne
- New Ram 1500
- New Subaru Crosstrek
- New Subaru Forester
- New Subaru Impreza
- New Subaru Outback
- New Tesla Model S
- New Tesla Model X
- New Toyota 4Runner
- New Toyota Camry
- New Toyota Corolla
- New Toyota Highlander
- New Toyota Prius
- New Toyota RAV4
- New Toyota Sienna
- New Toyota Tacoma
- New Volkswagen Jetta
- New Volvo XC60
- New Volvo XC90
Popular Used Sedans
- Used BMW 5 Series
- Used Chevrolet Impala
- Used Chevrolet Malibu
- Used Chrysler 200
- Used Dodge Charger
- Used Ford Fusion
- Used Ford Taurus
- Used Honda Accord
- Used Honda Civic
- Used Hyundai Elantra
- Used Hyundai Sonata
- Used Tesla Model S
- Used Toyota Camry
- Used Toyota Corolla
- Used Volkswagen Jetta
Popular Used SUVs
- Used Acura MDX
- Used Acura RDX
- Used Ford Edge
- Used Ford Explorer
- Used Honda CR-V
- Used Honda Pilot
- Used Hyundai Santa Fe
- Used Jeep Compass
- Used Lincoln Navigator
- Used Mazda CX-5
- Used Nissan Rogue
- Used Subaru Crosstrek
- Used Subaru Forester
- Used Tesla Model X
- Used Volvo XC90
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
BTW, with the heavily subsidized lease deals on BMW's nowadays, it is becoming increasing tempting to hop on the bandwagon for financial reason alone. Good to know that they are not likely to break down in the first 2-3 years :-)
If that's all you got out of my post, then I'm giving you way too much credit.
Uncheckmate: Slide an LS next to an A8. Besides the preconceived supposed reliablility and Wal-Mart Roll-back pricing strategy and sales(that's a given, thanks to the warehouse pricing), what category exactly is it superior in? And that can go for any of it's peers. Oh and don't get cute, even you haven't drove the LS460 yet, at least for long.
Since you brought it up, again, besides Japan and the NA, where else is the LS sold? Try 6 continents and 47 countries for the A8 just to give you a hint?
I don't know how many times I have posted here that I have leased 3 BMW vehicles. Many, many times. Off the top of my head I believe the latest time was post #19896.
Don't ask me how I know. I am a BMW savant. :P
A lot can go wrong in 3 years with a vehicle. 3 BMW's. 3 leases. No trouble.
Some of you folks seem to think BMW's have meltdowns as soon as they leave the dealer.
I also mentioned that I would never own a BMW for the long-term, meaning out of warranty (5 years).
If you go back and read post #19896 and if I recall, post #19898 as well. It's all in there.
Limited regional success is now exclusivity? You are really reaching! Gotta give ya credit for that. But be realistic . . .
Lexus would LOVE to do better in Europe and elsewhere, and you know it. And you know they will be trying much harder to achieve some headway there. They simply haven't had the right ingredients so far. A lack of a diesel is just a part of Lexus' deficiency, and I've read many a post always blaming the lack of a diesel. That's a no-brainer. It's deeper than that.
But, yes you are right that Lexus does very well in the good 'ol USA. But keep in mind that the rest of the world clearly makes a different choice.
It makes good sense to consider the entire global picture, IMO. Otherwise we'd be hearing scientists telling us about USA-warming instead of global-warming. Sometimes it is good to see the whole picture . . . it doesn't get bigger than that.
TagMan
I am hereby resolving to clean my act up and cut back on some of my "spiteful" posts. I sure don't want to see this forum end up as "read only".
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I think you have a lot of company. Me included.
Statistics already indicate a higher growth rate for diesels than hybrids . . . and the really good products haven't even showed up yet. The best is yet to come . . . and fortunately will be coming soon.
TagMan
The NYT tested the E320 CDI, and raved about it. It actually beat its EPA estimates in real world conditions. A hybrid has never, never, never beaten its EPA estimates. The inconvenient truth for hybrid owners is that the 30 year old EPA testing methods give hybrids an artificial boost that will never be achievable for anyone that uses more than a big toe on the gas pedal. Diesels are obviously not the final solution to end dependence on fossil fuels, but they are a much better interim solution than 400lbs. of batteries.
Not true, it varies a great deal Doc. The E320 won a comparo when it was first released and various AMG cars have one comparos too. The CLK55 beat the 645Ci and Maser Coupe at C&D and the GL450 just polished off a bunch of new rivals. The S600 has never been beaten by anything, not the Rolls Phantom, BMW 760Li or anything else. So you see Doc your statement about MBs "never" being comparo winners isn't true at all. Not even close to being true. You've got to look at their whole range of car, not just the previous S430, E430, and C-Class losses.
Secondly this was not about whether or not "Mercedes" cared about the comparos this was about your use of comparos to prop up Lexus being "better" and choosing to forget about them the next when we talk about any other Lexus other than the LS430.
The same is probably true for Lexus. You don't want to be a bottom-feeder, in either case. But what would you rather be good at? I'm sure they don't build cars to please journalists.
This is an excuse, a cop out doc. The LS430 isn't built for enthusiasts or journalists, C&D even admitted as much and yet it has still wins more often than not. The SC430 on the other hand is bottom feeder as far as comparos go.
The M35/45 has put a nice string together, and can't outsell the beleaugered GS!
Careful here doc because when/if it does (it has during certain months) that will make it vastly superior to the GS by your logic because the M already has the comparos on its side while the GS has gone back to lagging the pack again.
You're falling on your own sword here Doc.
M
No the last words on the above paragraph are not there in error. In the past Audi has never tried to out-Bling their more ostentatious and conventional competitors like BMW, MB and Lexus. In fact Audi's understated image is one reason why I think Audis are far more successful overseas. People living beyond our shores are less concerned about image than us North Americans. (MB sold luxury for decades in Europe while every street there is covered with MB taxis). Just imagine what would happen to MB and Lexus sales if every other taxi is a Benz or Lexus in North America?
Bingo!
M
Audi and Lexus are getting closer to being full lineup providers or plan to, but Acura and Infiniti won't be there for years and years, if they're even planning to do so.
M
IMO they are. The old LS430's seats were like sitting on a padded park bench, good leather but absolutely no support.
M
Don't you just love it when slow sales are called "exclusivity""?
M
That makes the Q45 one of the most exclusive luxury cars in the world. Somebody call Infiniti!
And now for the facts (through Sep. 2006):
G35 Sedan US sales in 2006: 26,802
Audi A/S4 US sales in 2006: 28,167
Lexus IS US sales in 2006: 41,666
BMW 325i/325xi/330i US Sales in 2006: 60,724
So the IS sedan not only outsells the cheaper A4, easily, it also outsells vaunted G35 sedan!
Now back to your regularly scheduled postings, soon to be corrected, in the Passionate Pursuit of Perfection.
Source: Autochannel
DrFill
Not really. The GL is excellent!
The 3.5 in the GS will boost sales enough to stay ahead of the M, even though it's dynamics are more pleasant than fierce.
Not sure where I "copped out", but you seem to have made my point for me. The LS430 is the most unlikely of enthusiast's magazine champions, but it's inherent excellence wins out in the end.
You seem to be under the impression that I said somewhere that every Lexus is better than every Mercedes, which is an error on your part. Unless you have evidence to the contrary? :confuse:
DrFill
Nope, there are Maseratis, Aston-Martins, Motorsport BMWs, S/RS Audis and R Jaguars to contend with. Now if you're going to say that some comparos count and others don't then.... AMGs are Mercedes too.
Not sure where I "copped out", but you seem to have made my point for me. The LS430 is the most unlikely of enthusiast's magazine champions, but it's inherent excellence wins out in the end.
No your point hasn't been made, nor did you really have one. You gave an excuse about certain Lexuses not being made for journalists or enthusiast and that being why certain Lexus models never win comparos, like the SC430. I said that this notion is disproven a thousand times over if Lexus' dullest, most boring car (the LS430) can win comparos in the eyes of these very same journalist. The fact that Lexus' dullest car wins while their more exciting ones don't shoots down any point you could have even tried to make about comparos.
Like I said before you go back and forth from comparos to sales to make a point, one minute comparos are the most important thing and the next they aren't.
Reverting back to how good the car is a change of argument mid-stream doc.
M
A quote from the Edmunds review of the 2007 G35. "Last year, Infiniti sold 121,000 vehicles, 55,000 of which wore the G35 badge."
Automotive News used to allow non subscribers to view the sales charts but no longer does so I can't check it. Before they cut off access I looked it up and the G35 was second in sales only to the BMW 3-series. California makes up about half of BMW's sales. The G35 out sells the BMW in the rest of the country.
I've owned a single BMW323i for 8 years. A great car that had spared me a lot of heartbreak in terms of its low maintenance costs after warranty.
Am I the single happy long-term BMW owner in this universe?
Nope! I know other BMW owners personally and my experience is confirmed by various reliability surveys. Overall BMWs reliability is not stellar but they are certainly not below average.
BTW, with the heavily subsidized lease deals on BMW's nowadays,
BMW or MB does not monopolize the industry for good lease deals or discounts. I can assure you there are plenty of individuals that got great lease/discount deals at various Japanese luxury dealerships.
When the new BMW 7 series will be introduced you are going to have a heck of a time in terms of getting a good lease deal. At intro the days that a 7 series will sit at dealers lots will be very low in fact probably lower than what is currently observed with the new 335i:
The average 335i spends a mere eight days on a dealer's lot before selling, according to the Power Information Network The only rival model that's anywhere close is the Lexus IS 350, which spends an average of 20 days on the lot before selling.
The quote above is from a somewhat positive review of the BMW335i which is linked below:
BUSINESSWEEK
I've never felt so Californian in my whole life.
Although that still does not qualify me to vote for or against Schwartzenegger.
BTW, ever had a light bulb outage on those leased BMW? Besides the hassle of small things like the light bulbs, I had a transmission failure and a Motronic computer failure, both leaving me stranded, when I had my BMW's. That was during a phase of my life when my punctuality was not all that important.
Statistically surveys do not show BMWs as being below average in terms of reliability.
Please refer to Kirstie's recent post. You can alway google and find horror stories about any marque. No marque is perfect in terms of reliability and that is why Lexus is still relentlessly pursuing it.
335i has been on the market for only a few weeks, whereas IS350 has been on the market for a model year. I'm already seeing 328 coupe being offered at very heavily subsidized lease deals.
Definitely I cant think of a more worthy car than the new MB S600 in being crowned the benchmark HELM sedan.
There are some pretty good discount deals on Lexuses. But that does not make Lexus the inventor of good discount deals.
REALITY: Most luxury models especially when they're dated have good lease or discount deals. (BMW or non-BMWs)
My anecdotal evidience is backed up by Consumers Report. BMWs overall are not horrible lemons as you are trying to imply. Dont mix up your past BMWs with the general population of BMWs.
http://www.knucklehead.uk.com/html/player.php?id=100
BMW's quality has noticeably improved over the last several years.
The only BMW car that CR doesn't have at average reliability or better at this time is the BMW 7 Series.
I drive a lot and I can't remember over the last, say 3 years, seeing any vehicle stuck on the side of any road. The average reliability of all vehicles is extraordinary compared to about 10 years ago. The only ones over there are usually those fire engine red sedans being checked out by ol' smokey and his "money pad."
Leasing works for me not only because I avoid potential maintenance headaches, but also because I enjoy driving a new vehicle as often as I can. I love cars, but because I am not Jerry Seinfeld or Reggie Jackson, both of whom have many cars, I can at least change the one I do have every couple of years.
Maybe the one year lease will be created just for me. I would pounce on that!
Even some Lexus salespeople direct their customers to leasing companies or banks outside of Lexus that offer better leasing deals than Lexus does.
BMW is better with lease deals while Lexus is better with purchase deals.
I wasn't talking about Lexus purchase deals.
They discourage leasing through their artificially low residuals.
If I ever decide to change my behavior one day and actually purchase for the long term (5-10 years), it would probably be a Lexus vehicle like the LS. But not at this time.
See Doc, you can't believe everything that you see, hear, or prescribe, maybe not even YOUR on postings.
The A4 has sold 36k units at the time of this writing, compared to a paltry 32k units for the beleagured IS.
And the G35 is outselling it too!
Now basing your logic on 5 YEAR OLD can't comparos can't get your foot out of your mouth on this one
Up until now, I've stood back and let you ponder around about the greatness of this brand. But now the gloves come off.
After all that, you can't tell me what the "most exclusive" car in the USA possesses over it's "valueless" peers?
Furthermore, how is being the most selling car in it's class being exclusive? Just because it's not in other countries, doesn't mean it's more valuable than the Taj Mahal! Oh, and newsflash, the car is sold in other countries, Japan for one, but it flunks miserably there. I guess it's not exclusive enough.....
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Paying for Sizzle? Don't forget, houdini1, that Mercedes Filet Mignon is supposed to cost more than Lexus Tri-Tip.
BTW, now that the pricing is out, go ahead and price out a loaded LS460L against an S-Class and see just how much difference there is.
TagMan
Ooh that was good. I could not have said it better myself!
If you need to do so, check out those posts.
So, in my opinion, we can let him off the hook regarding his "exclusive" remark . . . he knows it wasn't one of his better posts and I expect he'll be making quality posts here again soon.
TagMan
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
STUTTGART Every couple of months, Thomas Weber, head of research for DaimlerChrysler, gets behind the wheel of one of his own cars, or that of one of his competitors, and drives through the mountainous terrain of Europe or on long stretches in the United States.
While taking a spin this year, the lifelong Mercedes man found himself impressed with a novelty on the European market: Toyota Motor's new Lexus GS 450H, the world's first luxury car that incorporates an electric hybrid motor but still performs for a demanding driver like Weber.
Based on the Herald Tribune article I linked below it certainly does seem that Mercedes, Audi and BMW are very serious about hybrids. Diesels are not going to be their sole pursuit in terms of fuel efficiency.
So I guess we are going to see a lot of future drivetrain experimentation for the three German marques. There will likely be many models offering both diesel and hybrid drivetrains simultaneously. A Audi Q7 diesel sold simultaneously with a Q7 hybrid, a diesel MB S sold side by side with a hybrid MB S or hybrid diesel MB S and so on and so on.....
SOURCE: HERALD TRIBUNE
The same is probably true for Lexus. You don't want to be a bottom-feeder, in either case. But what would you rather be good at? I'm sure they don't build cars to please journalists.
The M35/45 has put a nice string together, and can't outsell the beleaugered GS!
This previous post of mine seems to have you chaffed, still.
I apologized for not including GL and AMG vehicles.
All comparisons count, but I due place more credit on beating 6-7 cars in a comparison than 1 or 2 cars.
Apparently you didn't get my point, which was that winning a comparison and being #1 in sales have different values to different people.
The M has won at least two major comparisons, and it has it's work cut out keeping up with such unpopular cars (around here) as the Lexus GS.
Lexus has stated they want to sell 30k GS a year. As far as I can tell, every month they are getting 2500 a month out of it, so even if it isn't King of The Mountain, it is successful to it's maker, and to 30k buyers.
No one "copped out". Just stating the facts. I was the first one to say I envisioned a design more in the 5-series idiom, than what we received.
The SC doesn't have to win comparisons to be a success. Neither does the C-Class. Or the Lexus ES.
I remember when the 1996 Isuzu Trooper won an 8-truck SUV comparison in C&D.
Would you call the Trooper a success? No. Why? Because no one bought one.
If the boring LS can, consistently, win comparisons with other sexier, sportier, more powerful rides, it says something about Lexus and their ability to execute.
Usually when something is labeled "critically-acclaimed", that means nobody is buying/watching it. :sick:
DrFill
But any auto maker that uses your inflated residual argument will end up perishing due to losses or at least suffering the slow and gradual death that is afflicting the Big 3.
BMW and Audi profits are healthy and growing while MB profits are going through a healthy recovery(apparently the same cannot be said about Chrysler). Fortunately such economics as you are describing above is not applicable to the three German luxury marques.
The 2006 G35 is also a lame duck. G35 sales should get a nice boost next year.