High End Luxury Cars

brightness04 · October 2006

In addition to easily meeting the price criteria

E class MSRP starts at $50k, and that's a fake number anyway. Leases on E350 starts at $399/mo. That's almost the same as ES350, an entry-level luxury car.

HELM means "High End" . . ."End", not "somewhat higher than entry-level." The very existence of S class makes E class ineligible for HELM. Sames goes for 5 series, IMHO. Exx-AMG and M5 may be close to High-End in a way that is not about luxury.

Besides, HELM also means full-size cars, that means 200" length or thereabouts. At 190" or thereabouts, both E and 5 are middlings.

tagman · October 2006

The E-Class base prices are as follows: This is Truth. Before options and packages:
E350 = 51,325
EBlueTec = 52,325
E550 = 59,775
E63 = 85,375

The idea that E-Class prices are on a par with the Lexus ES is a lie.

ES prices start at only $33,170. This is the real truth.

However, The LS430 as recent as model year 2006 had a price of only 56,325, LESS than the E550! This is the truth.

The idea that the E-Class and 5-Series are priced the same is a lie.

The 5-Series are generally in the mid $40's range. This is the truth.

The E-class is 191 inches in length and the LS430 is 197.4 inches in length, both slightly under 200 inches. This is the Truth.

If the LS430 qualified to be a HELM at $56,325 (it was less in earlier model years), under 200 inches in length, then the E-Class has earned the same right to be treated the same, at a similar price and size, with even pricier models and more horsepower. This is the truth.

brightness has compared the E-Class to the Lexus ES, when in fact the E-Class is closer to the LS430, as the specifications and prices absolutely and clearly prove. This is the truth.

So far, everyone has posted in favor of the E-Class being included . . . except brightness. Coincidence? Of course not. And read his post comparing the E-Class with the $33K Lexus ES. I think we all know what's going on here. It's so obvious, but this time we're not going to get sucked into a downward spiral by ridiculous posts. I'm sticking to the high road, my friends.

Heck, it wouldn't surprise me to see Dewey make a special post just to vote for the E-Class.

Case closed. No more lies.

TagMan

hpowders · October 2006

whether the E Class is a HELM or not, the only model I would be interesting in driving would be the E320 Bluetec, hopefully brought to these shores next year with its 27/37 estimated mileage numbers.
This event will truly be revolutionary, making the hybrids merely pretenders, IMO.

Really looking forward to this one!

tagman · October 2006

Really looking forward to this one!

blkhemi, houdini, and I are also interested in the E BlueTec. So, with your support, we can legitimately discuss it from now on. Are you in?

TagMan

hpowders · October 2006

ooooh yeah!

Can't wait for that baby to get here and the other big leaguers' inevitable response to it.

I believe our Canadian sabbatical man is interested too.
If anything can bring him back soon, it's Bluetec.

brightness04 · October 2006

Edmunds.com lists E350 MSRP as $50,550, not $51,325,
so if we have to use the word "lie," either Edmunds is lying or Tagman is.

In the world of vendor financing, MSRP is meaningless. The true acquisition cost of E350 comes down to $399/mo, which is remarkably close to that of the ES350. This is the truth. I never said the MSRP's of the two are comaprable, so any mis-characterization of what I said is . . . you guessed it, a lie. BTW, if MSRP is the criteria, Cadillac still boasts the highest sales of cars with MSRP over $40k (or is that $45k) among all brands . . . of course we know MSRP is not the real picture . . . in other words . . . you guessed it, lies.

The E-class is 191 inches in length and the LS430 is 197.4 inches in length, both slightly under 200 inches. This is the Truth

Perhaps to the completely un-initiated. 200" and thereabouts is the domain of full-size cars. 190" and thereabouts is the domain of midsize cars. Incidentally the ES is 191.1" . . . so tell us again is the E closer to ES or to LS, at least as far as vehicle length is concerned? The current LS460 is 200"

So far, everyone has posted in favor of the E-Class being included . . . except brightness. Coincidence?

Does every disgreement have to have a conspiracy theory behind it? Does every argument have to turn into personal attacks?

BTW, if $50k and thereabouts is the line for HELM, then quite a few models from other mfrs would also qualify:

Acura RL,
Audi A6
Caddy DTS
Caddy STS
Caddy CTS-V
Inifiniti Q
Inifniti M45
Lexus GS430
Lexus GS450H
Lincoln Town Car

Obviously, it would make a hash of this board despite I'm sure every model probably has its advocates. The real acquisition cost of some of these cars are no where near what their MSRP would suggest.

tagman · October 2006

I believe our Canadian sabbatical man is interested too.
If anything can bring him back soon, it's Bluetec.

Absolutely!

Thanks powders.

TagMan

tagman · October 2006

is indicated on the Mercedes Benz website. Here's the link that shows the prices exactly as I represented:

MBUSA

E350 = 51,325
EBlueTec = 52,325
E550 = 59,775
E63 = 85,375

TagMan

brightness04 · October 2006

MBUSA lists MSRP with desitnation charge, whereas edmudns does not, I suppose. So don't bother pin a "lie" label on me as E350 is listed at MSRP barely over $50k on edmunds. In any case these are "suggestions" (MSRP) . . . they are not real market-clearing prices. How many people plunks down $51k+ of their own money for a Caddy STS?? Likewise, with the tremendous incentives that run around routinely, the "suggestions" from the manufacturers are meaningless when they are handing out lease money with the other hand. Whichever cheapest way a product can be acquired by a normal person without going through tons of hoops is the real price of the product in the market place; MSRP, "appraised value" etc. etc. are utterly besides the point . . . especially when you were trying to make the point that people pay more for MB because it's worth more. People pay higher counter price on products with mail-in rebates not because they deem the product more valuable than the competition without mail-in rebate. How hard is it to understand that anyway? With a lease, you don't even have to mail in the rebate or even put up the cash up front . . . you get your rebate worked in through subsidized residual . . . in other words, the nominal "sale price" is a lie. BTW, the nominal "sale price" in a lease is already a little more truthful than MSRP, which is an even farther off-the-wall lie.

hpowders · October 2006

I have to hope the new diesels don't sell too well, so I can pick one up for a bargain lease in August, 2008.
Should be enough people fearful of the "new" technology to make my wish come true!

tagman · October 2006

Don't expect too much of a "fear factor". They will sell very well for a while. Possibly at a premium, or full MSRP in the begining. Nothing at all like the diminished value some might suggest.

To top that off, there WILL be pricey options-a-plenty that will further add to the price, again nothing like the cheap car some might suggest.

I've been seriously thinking about that car as well, but in California, I have to wait one more year to even consider it.

But, lucky you, your timing might prove to be el-perfecto.

TagMan

hpowders · October 2006

We live in exciting times.

Looking forward to the first diesel reviews here.

They've been mostly good across the pond.

brightness04 · October 2006

I wonder if they are serious about making the car in-operable when the urea tank is empty (in order to satisfy EPA requirement; otherwise, EPA has good reason to believe that people would run the car without a drop of urea . . . wonder how it smells now to be driving behind a Benz diesel ;-). From what I read, the urea tank needs to be filled at every oil change . . . well, did they mean every 3k miles or every 15k miles? ;-)

tagman · October 2006

There was a recent Europe/Asia Mercedes rally of some sort that has been talked about on the internet. From what I understand, the BlueTec car was nothing short of magnificent.

I'm looking forward to the reviews as well. I'll bet a chunk of the ranch that the reviews will be fantastic.

TagMan

tagman · October 2006

In case someone should try to spread rumors, the urea tank (if actually used) would need topping off at the dealership ONLY at very extended intervals, not every 3K miles. This is according to MB.

The reason I posted "if actually used", is because there is speculation at this time (not confirmed) that MB may have come up with a way to eliminate it altogether, as has Honda.

Honda has confirmed that they do not need it, due to a special catalytic system.

TagMan

hpowders · October 2006

Let's face it, If that were indeed a problem, we would have read about it by now.

As I see it, nothing to get "pissed" about.

tagman · October 2006

Yes, I get your point.

The experienced 545 driver is using the throttle and brakes effectively on the good Tag, huh?

Thanks.

TagMan

brightness04 · October 2006

Until we have the product on the street, obviously everything we can find is rumor. How did they define "very extended intervals"? The technology has been in development for quite a few years. Compared to the original model fill the urea tank at the diesel pump, even a requirement at oil change is "very extended intervals".

Interesting tidbit from Honda, wonder when their product is going to be here. Here I thought the Euro's had a techno lead on diesel. It doesn't sound good if they have to license the less troublesome urea-free approach from Honda.

brightness04 · October 2006

The urea refill legal requirement, if the system requires it to achieve low NOx emission, is one of the leading topics at diesel engine adoption discussions (not just about passenger cars). If they (MB or Honda) figured out a way to make do without the blue liquid at all, it would be great news indeed.

brightness04 · October 2006

To top that off, there WILL be pricey options-a-plenty that will further add to the price, again nothing like the cheap car some might suggest.

The good news for people who are actually interested in getting one of those buggers is that the subsidized leases will include some of the most popular option packages, with the same inflated residual per centage . . . so getting options won't cost much real money.

brightness04 · October 2006

Good point on the 5 vs. 7 analysis. BMW probably thought the same thing when they based the 8 series on 5 series platform, not 7 series platform. There is however a real market acceptance problem when one tries to sell a $70k+ sedan on performance, and expect sales volume significantly higher than the likes of Quattroporte. HELM is somewhat a tough proposition for BMW, which has proven its market prowess second to none with 3 and 5 serieses. The failure of 8 series proved that point.

Incidentally, trying to expand the HELM portfolio in the other direction, with more carry capacity, like the R class tried, did not prove successful either. Apparently, HELM with decent sales volume at high price premium faces a rather conservative target audience: four doors, full-size sedan, and load up as much luxury as possible.

nvbanker · October 2006

Oh Lexus, nor BMW or Mercedes ever worries about Cadillac or Lincoln. I don't think they ever did.

Of course, you are right. I was being sarcastic - certainly when LExus was conceived, there was nothing at Cadillac you would want to emulate, around 1985.... And Lincoln, well that old boxy Town Car was selling like crazy, but it was very old tech compared to what the Europeans had going.

lexusguy · October 2006

That fact that the E63 has a HELM price tag does not make the whole line deserve to be on this board. The 190" class is midsize, saying its "close enough" to the 200+ class doesn't count. You can't include the E without bringing the entire rest of the segment in, or at least the A6 (because of the S6, RS6 pricing) and 5 because of the M5 pricing. There's already a board to talk about the E, the LPS board.

merc1 · October 2006

Doesn't "HELM" mean High-End Luxury Marque, not sedan? If that is the case then shouldn't this board be about the brands and not just one sedan from each?

Doesn't "Marque" mean a brand, label etc. etc.?

M

lexusguy · October 2006

Yeah I know, I just meant its not a car for this board. That, and "HELS" sounds a bit wierd. Maybe its just me.

tagman · October 2006

Well, actually the entire line, before added options easily meets the over $50K arena, not just the AMG. Heck, the LS430 had a low price with marginal horsepower and minimum performance for years and was included here. It never had any AMG-type version either. Even in its latest 2006 year the LS was only based out in the mid $50's. Just because it is a Lexus, doesn't entitle it to special treatment. Or does it?

And the HELM designation is just fine. No need to change it.

Today's E-Class has evolved far enough to more than qualify. Heck, we're talking an E-BlueTec, an E550 and an E63. For goodness sakes.

Especially considering the LS430 was here for so long with its borderline qualifications.

TagMan

tagman · October 2006

Doesn't "HELM" mean High-End Luxury Marque, not sedan? If that is the case then shouldn't this board be about the brands and not just one sedan from each?

Doesn't "Marque" mean a brand, label etc. etc.?

I remember the discussion as to whether or not Porsche qualified without the sedan.

Good point.

Either way, the inclusion of the E has lots of merit. Overall the line-up would inject a healthy dose of added content for this forum, especially considering the terrific nature of the evolved vehicle and its different variants. Read my posts and consider the points I have made. The Host has granted this open window here for this additional German marque, and others have expressed a similar approval of the E's inclusion. Let's not miss the moment.

How 'bout it Merc? We are close to a concensus here.

TagMan

merc1 · October 2006

Well Porsche is definitely a High-End Luxury Marque. They sell high-end luxury goods for sure. No doubt about Porsche's status here IMO.

Well you know I read everything here so I've read your case for the E, but honestly I don't see it as a High-End Luxury Sedan in the sense that we've used the designation for this board.

Now I used to raise this very same question along with others about the LS430, which wasn't priced like a S/7/A8 nor did it sell (outside of a lease) for what those cars sell for with the average one going for 60-67K, not the 70K+ where the Germans reside, but then you got the size argument and what Lexus said the competition was for the LS430. Funny thing is that even one of Toyota's execs basically said that the LS wasn't thought of as a high-end sedan by U.S. buyers, after the fact of course!

Anyway without getting into all that rigamarole about pricing and leasing (why did you waste your time with that?), the E and 5-Series would have to be included too if MSRP is going to be the meter, but I don't see them as high-end.

I hope this disagreement doesn't shock you...lol. :surprise:

M

lexusguy · October 2006

Today's E-Class has evolved far enough to more than qualify. Heck, we're talking an E-BlueTec, an E550 and an E63. For goodness sakes.

Thats great. Unfortunately that doesn't change the fact that the A6, 5, and STS offer just as many choices (minus diesel, for now). You can't just bring in the E without bringing them as well. What makes Mercedes so special that they get to bring their full size and midsize car to the HELM board and no one else does?

And if you bring in those three, you have to bring in the RL, GS, and M as well, as it wouldn't be fair to exclude them just because they dont have UHP variants, because neither do the 7, Quattroporte, and LS.

designman · October 2006

Don't have much time here but just wanted to say I was at the Taste at Belmont on Saturday. Apparently you guys who went on Sunday had much shorter lines. Next time I will go early, that should solve the problem? I wouldn't have even gone but I just had to drive the GS 450h and I waited 1 1/2 hours to get to it. Then I waited about 45 minutes for the LS 460L. Wanted to drive the S550 badly but that was another 1 1/2 hour wait, lost patience and left.

All I will say now is that I was greatly impressed with and suprised by the GS 450h. I remember being puzzled when R&T did the comparo with the 550i and one writer chose the Lexus. Now I know why. My comments pretty much mirror what psychdoc said and all I will say right now is that I would definitely consider buying it. Of course, the drive was too short as syswei pointed out but there was enough there to get a good indication. Aside from the space problems and exterior styling my biggest criticism is the light Lexus steering which essentially has more power assist than the 5-series but I think I could tolerate that considering the confidence and it has for a 4100+ lb car. That hybrid drivetrain feels so smooth and powerful, a rocket out of the gate, responsive and steady in corners. On the other hand the LS 460L fell to it's knees (roll, nose dive) when pushed. Can't comment on the VDIM because all of my hard stuff was done while braking.

syswei · October 2006

Wow, those wait times sound awful! Now I know for the future, don't sign up for day one.

Did you have the 460L in sport mode? When I got into mine, it was set to 'normal'...there's a rocker switch on the console, near the shifter.

merc1 · October 2006

You guys have much longer lines than we did here. I couldn't have waited 1 1/2 hours to drive anything, not even the S550! Yes the GS450 was a surprise for me too. Do you hear any clicking/beeping when layiing on the power?

M

merc1 · October 2006

Did you have the 460L in sport mode? When I got into mine, it was set to 'normal'...there's a rocker switch on the console, near the shifter.

You drove the LS460L? Did I miss what you said about it?

M

designman · October 2006

Did you have the 460L in sport mode?

No, as you know the drive is very short and I wanted to concentrate on steering, handling and basic power with the default tranny.

designman · October 2006

Do you hear any clicking/beeping when layiing on the power?

Can't say I noticed. What I noticed about the power delivery and sound is that I always heard the engine in a steady fashion which kind of surprised me given the big dependence on the electric motor when zooming. I was expecting more of an erratic on/off type of thing. As such, I am very impressed with the technology. I need to get this car in my hands at least for a good 1/2 hour test drive. Too bad it's just impossible at this point.

merc1 · October 2006

Yeah the seamless operation is what made the biggest impression on me too. I really couldn't tell it was a hybrid.

M

hpowders · October 2006

Well, price wise, the 550i fits right in there with the new LS at $58,500 "unstuffed", to about $77,000 MSRP.
However, I would not consider the 550i to be anything more than a large sport sedan, surely not a HELM. It's not just the price, but also, the look and the feeling.

However, using my 545i iDrive controller makes me feel as close to HELS on earth as humanly possible.

syswei · October 2006

You drove the LS460L? Did I miss what you said about it?

I didn't have much to say (in this post) about driving the 460L, other than the steering felt a little light. I just found the drive to be too short to offer great insights, and besides, since I gave up on waiting to drive the S550, I had nothing to compare to.

syswei · October 2006

Have you considered possibly going again? Maybe if you went this Sunday and arrived before the doors opened to fill out the waiver, you could be first up for the S, drive the LS set to 'sport', and drive the GS400h some more. Just an idea.

lexusguy · October 2006

All I will say now is that I was greatly impressed with and suprised by the GS 450h. I remember being puzzled when R&T did the comparo with the 550i and one writer chose the Lexus. Now I know why. My comments pretty much mirror what psychdoc said and all I will say right now is that I would definitely consider buying it.

Why??? Is 0.3 seconds quicker to 60 and 1 more mile per gallon worth $10K more than the GS350? The PCS with radar cruise, 18" wheels, NAV, ML stereo, and everything else the 450h has is all available on the 350. GS450h "perks" are 400lbs. of extra weight to lug around, and a 5 cu.ft smaller trunk. The GS doesn't have much to begin with (12.7). 7.5 cu.ft is what convertibles have. Actually, my XK has more space in the trunk. A Boxster has more total luggage space than that.

I just dont get it, the 450h makes no sense.

syswei · October 2006

The price difference isn't $10k when the cars are comparably configured.

tagman · October 2006

Well, price wise, the 550i fits right in there with the new LS at $58,500 "unstuffed", to about $77,000 MSRP.

True.

The 5-Series, however, basically comes out of the gate with a base price of well under $50K. Additionally, the emphasis is not so strong on luxury, but on performance.

The E-Class, however, has the styling, luxury, driving dynamics, and as well, even the E350 is out of the gate above $51K, with the E-BlueTec, E550, and E63 well above with a comfortable margin even before options.

I understand that the vehicle is in some ways on the borderline here. I really do. But, just because it barely crosses the line in a few criteria, doesn't mean it hasn't done so, and in other criteria it blows across the line easily.

So far, Houdini, Blkhemi, Powders and myself TagMan have agreed that the E-Class has evolved far enough to be included here. Although Brightness hasn't posted much here on this forum until these recent days, he still has a voice to be heard, and he, Merc, and Lexusguy still have reservations about including the E-Class here.

At this point, we need Dewey, Syswei, Designman, and others, if interested, to review the posts and arguments, and then give us their points of view.

If they agree that the E-Class has finally crossed the threshhold to be included, then it would seem logical to do so. If they do not, I would then not see enough of a concensus here, IMO.

So, let's just wait and get some more insight into the idea from others. It's been interesting so far.

TagMan

hpowders · October 2006

I totally agree with you. I will make a point of skipping the GS450h at the Taste. However, I do want to see the trunk. I could use a good laugh after the long drive. I bet they have it bolted shut.

hpowders · October 2006

I consider the 550i a HELS rather than a true HELM and its inclusion would be out of place here, allowing my one or two "allusions" to it from time to time, of course.

pat · October 2006

I have a question. If the E-Class is a high end luxury marque (which by my understanding means either the vehicle or the brand for whomever asked), what is the S-Class?

(The dewey proxy snuck in on me.

)

laurasdada · October 2006

Just a technicality, but as this discussion is entitled, "High End Luxury Marques," as a Mercedes-Benz (the HEL Marque) the E Class is certainly acceptable to this discussion. As is the full range of MB (BMW, Jag, Audi, Lexus et. al.) offerings. Had the discussion been titled, "High End Luxury Marque Premium Models" (or something as such), then the specific model inclusion debate would be more germane.

Or am I wrong, that the word "Marque" is being applied more granularly, i.e. to specific models within a marque?

pat · October 2006

I thought it meant brand only but I wasn't sure, so sometime back I looked it up in a humongous dictionary I have (but don't have access to right now) and was surprised to see it could mean either. I'll try to check it and quote you the source.

laurasdada · October 2006

Thanks, Pat. I didn't read through ('till now) the entire thread before I posted to realize that the topic had already been discussed a bit. Although through the years I've just believed that "Marque" was the brand. In articles I'd oft read phrases such as, "Model X truly represents the marque" or "...doesn't befit the marque..."

Not a big deal. I'd vote to include the E class. For a majority of folks (I'll postulate), any cars that MSRP (using MSRP just for consistency, not reality) at $50k+ represent "High End." Of course, I'm just a poor workin' man with no CPA or CFA to append to my name. But I can append MCSE, FLMI, AFSI, ACS and ARA (whatever the heck they stand for?!)!!! :shades:

pat · October 2006

I agree with how you read it - I did too. I forget what made me question it, but I was surprised to see what I saw in the dictionary.

psychdoc · October 2006

Looks to me like it can be applied to individual cars within a brand as well as to a whole line.

4 results for: marque
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Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source
marque1 /mɑrk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mahrk] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

noun 1. letter of marque.
2. Obsolete. seizure by way of reprisal or retaliation.

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[Origin: 13751425; late ME < MF < Pr marca seizure by warrant (orig. token) < Gmc; see mark1]
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source
marque2 /mɑrk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mahrk] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

noun a product model or type, as of a luxury or racing car.

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[Origin: 190510; < F: lit., mark, sign, n. deriv. of marquer to mark, prob. dial. deriv. of OF merc, merche boundary, boundary marker < ON merki (from same Gmc base as march2, mark1, marque1]
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source marque (märk) Pronunciation Key
n.
A model or brand of a manufactured product, especially an automobile.

[French, from Old French. See marquetry.]

(Download Now or Buy the Book) The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
WordNet - Cite This Source
marque

n : a name given to a product or service [syn: trade name, brand name, brand]

WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

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