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Comments
If they upgrade the engine to 3.5L from 3.0 at some point, it will address some of your hp concerns, though.
As far as I was able to tell on their site, those were the only two major features on the 450h not available as options on the 350. As for the engine, the 450h already uses the 3.5L, in the 450h it makes 292hp. In the 350, its 303hp. Unless Lexus makes major changes to the hybrid system, 339hp is all the 450h is going to get.
We have one more spot - want to give it to the Q45 and see where things go? We can always remove it (or remove any of the others) if another one comes to mind.
As far as the Q goes, brightness mentioned that it was already included here . . . if that is true then it's a done deal. If not true, then I'll toss it around a bit.
TagMan
Including a vehicle in the categories above means that when someone searches on that vehicle, this is one of the discussions that will be returned. The categories are limited to 9, but the number of vehicles under discussion certainly don't have to comply with that limit.
So, if the consensus is that the CLS (essentially a rebodied E500/E550) is includable here, is the E class really that much of an outsider?
I think, for example, that in this country MB is considered a luxury marque not because they sell a few very high priced models (e.g. as oft mentioned the S class), but because their cars have ALWAYS been expensive in the US compared to their competition (read Japaneese/US mfg. And maybe some smaller Euro marques). Model for model, a MB traditionally has been more expensive than the logical competition. Of course, thanks to Lexus (read: COMPETITION!), the price deltas are not as great as they used to be, but MB/BMW models are still relatively expensive.
Now I'm not assigning a "value" equation to the pricing structure. Simply, similarly equipped, a MB has historically been much more expensive than a Lexus, Caddy, Infiniti, (Saab, Volvo?) et. al. Enough buyers discount the price premium because there is value to them in owning the MB.
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
TM
While I did post that the CLK was indeed C-Class based, I somehow thought that the CLS was based upon the S-Class . . . but you are sure that it is E-Class based?
If so, that's terrific. Nice work.
TagMan
The category is now the CL-Class, forget what I said earlier.
TM
Of course not. Actually I put it in there for you!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Yep, its an E in a fancy tux. Platform, drivetrain, etc are all identical. Its the same with BMW's 5 and 6 series. The CLS was a genious move on M-B's part, it basically created a new segment that all of the other top brands are now rushing to fill.
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Traditionally MB uses one letter for sedans (C,E,S). If it's not a sedan, the second letter has always been L. SL for the large 2 seater, SLK for the small one. CL for the large coupe, CLK for the small one. If MB builds a small SUV, it's logical to call it MLK.
BMW and Audi are coming out with CLS competitors. Audi calls it A7, based on A6 of course. Does anyone know what BMW's will be called? In case no one has noticed, German carmakers always copy each other. I bet the Japanese won't have CLS competitors.
As much as I admire the G35, FX, and M35/45 dynamics, I don't consider Infiniti, or Acura/Lincoln/Cadillac, a HELM. Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe you have to successfully market high end cars before you make it to that class.
Maybe the Escalade is a HELM vehicle? I don't know. But this does tie in with my idea of 1st-tier luxury marques and 2nd-tier.
That turned into a Pandora's box, no?
Maybe the Next Q will be a hit? Don't know.
Same for the Photon. I think you need to sell more than 20 a month to make the cut of HELM. This is not hopscotch. This business is based on sales and image.
DrFill
My battle plan is to drive the S-Class first, than 750, than LS460L, to see how it stacks up.
Eye sore a 750 recently on the street and they really cleaned up the rear! Very nicely updated.
Wish they could do the same with the S
I'd like a 335i to match against the IS350.
I'll let you know how it went after the Giants game!
DrFill
Assuming SL is already on the list (it used to share platform with S, not sure about now), if another model from MB is to be added, it should have been the R class, with a 126" wheelbase, it's even longer than that of the S class. When it was introduced, it almost had the price tag to boot too with R500. However, it seems to have lost the spot due to some very funky market repositioning going on. Did anyone else notice that the 2007 R350 is $5000 less in MSRP than the 2006 model? No equipment change as far as I know. What's really funny is the lease deals currently being offered on MB USA website:
2007 R350 w/PP1, MSRP$47k, suggested nominal "sales price" (what is it anyway if what the mfr is suggeting is not MSRP) $44.4k, residual $32.4k, monthly payment $549
2006 R350 w/PP1, MSRP$54k, suggested nominal "sale price" $45.5k, residual $37.4k . . . monthly payment $499.
Now, what kind of genius will pay $5000 more for a 2006 R350 in January 2009 than for a 2007 R350, both equipped with Premium Package 1?? It goes to show that the residual is not the least bit grounded in reality, nor are MSRP and suggested "sale price" (which is not defined as MSRP despite the suggestion being from the same manufacturer). What is real is the monthly payment . . . the $50/mo difference to account for 2006 vs. 2007. All the other numbers are just cooked up in order to have the monthly payment numbers in the right order and amount.
BTW, I agree with adding Q45 if it is not already in the HELM. It qualifies in every which way, seeing that it's lower brother, the M35/45, is a legit competitor to 5, E and GS. The 340hp V8 and 200" body certainly count; they have been available since 2002.
Its already in the pipeline. Mercedes is not about to let the X3 be the only German compact lux-ute. You're correct on the name. Audi is also jumping in with the Q3. This segment is going to get very hot in the next few years.
In case no one has noticed, German carmakers always copy each other. I bet the Japanese won't have CLS competitors.
I wouldn't be so sure of that. There probably won't be one from Acura as they have yet to prove they can sell a car above $48K. Infiniti could go that route with the next Q though, no one knows what its going to look like. It would also be easy for Lexus to do a CLS style GS spin-off, (or just replace the GS entirely).
Actually, I think I agree with drfill on this one. The Q is sort of the opposite situation as the E class. Mercedes is without question a HELM, but the E is in the wrong segment for this board. The Q is in the full-lux segment yes, but is Infiniti a HELM? Not really.
Japanese already have a CLS competitor. It's called the GS . . . the swoopier and less mainstream mid-size offering. Unlike the CL above and the CLK below, both of which are sedan-derived coupes, the CLS is a sedan not a coupe. MB is seeing the wisdom in further differentiating the midsize range, into the sporty variety vs. the luxury variety . . . both being sedans. IMHO, it won't be long before we see E280 and perhaps even E220 diesel here in the US, to do battle with ES in a more direct fashion. ES on the other hand may take a page from Acura playbook and get AWD, assuming it does not get renamed to something else.
Not quite. The '98 GS also had that tiny rear deck, it takes a bit more than that to be a "4-door coupe".
ES on the other hand may take a page from Acura playbook and get AWD, assuming it does not get renamed to something else.
That seems very unlikely. The TL desperately needs AWD so that it can eliminate the torque steer issues with the 6-speed TL-S, and compete on a more level playing field with the G35 and 3 series. The ES competes with Buicks, not BMWs. I dont see any reason why AWD would be necessary.
Not exactly. VW is a mass market auto company, Infiniti is not. Unlike the Q, the XJ has in the past been a successful and definitely HELM class luxury sedan, its just in a slump right now. The XJ12 was a very high end car and a serious competitor to BMW and Mercedes V12 7 and S cars.
I see. Nothing really to report just enjoying the car. These summer tires hate cold temps though, so some winter tires are next.
M
The small MB SUV will be the GLK, not the MLK. MLK couldn't be used for obvious reasons.
Lexusguy, you continue to impress despite your handle...lol!
The Mercedes lineup for all of those who are bewildered by the sheer number of models and their meanings, stay with me here:
C = To the best of my knowledge stands for compact, "Kompakt".
E = This used to mean the German word for fuel-injection (Einspritzung) when it was used in everything from 560SEL to 300CE, but now it mean "E-Class" which from what I've seen on dedicated MB boards means "Excutive".
S = Special or Super, continued debate on this elsewhere. Derived from "Sonderklasse" which means super in German or something like that.
CLK = Coupe, Light, Short.
CL = Coupe, Light.
SL = Sport, Light.
SLR = Sport, Light, Racing. (my favorite)
G = Geländewagen.
CLS = Coupe, Light, Sport maybe? I have no idea.
SLK = Sport, Light, Short.
GLK = Geländewagen, Light, Short.
GL = Geländewagen, Light.
The ML and R I don't have a clue as to what they mean. M could stand for multi-purpose something. The R was originally the "Grand Sport Tourer", but they didn't call it the GST-Class so who knows. Knowing Mercedes though it means something.
Obviously the word "light" (Leicht) as in being lightweight doesn't accurately describe any modern day Benz! Neither does short really except for maybe the SLK.
Prior to the 1994 model year Mercedes used to put the letter before the number, that number being the engine size. The 560SEL which meant a 5.6L Super/Special, Fuel-injected, Long. The 300E for example meant 3L, Fuel-Injected. Then you had models like the 300TD which mean meant 3L, Touring (i.e. wagon), Diesel. 300CE meant 3L, Coupe, Fuel-Injected. Then you had 190E, which wasn't the engine size or anything, but still Fuel-Injected. Makes sense doesn't it?
Anyway, the greatest MB sedan of this era was the "500E" IMO.
M
What category would you put the Q in? I think it is close to the Jag in perception.
I saw a new Q in a parking lot the other day and I have to say that it looked great to me. The fit and finish was excellent. I will admit that I know nothing about the driving dynamics, etc.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
ES competes with Buick? only in the minds of some ES detractors. Even Buick only claims their sedan compete against Toyota's. Getting AWD will give ES a major differentiator from Camry, and position the model more inline with Audi A6. Sure, its mission is not to compete agaisnt BMW (that's the department of GS and CLS), but having AWD is a major credibility point on paper now that RWD and AWD are in fashion. Audi did not even bring the FWD base A6 to the US until recently, despite the A6 platform is basicly a FWD platform just like that of the ES.
E class was derived from the old 300 series, and you are certainly correct about where the letter E came from. MB used to be engine-centric, building cars around engines. It may not have been unique in that regard, just witness all the car companies with "motor" in their names. 1600, 2000/2002, 200, 240, 300 were all popular names for cars. BMW was the first one to systematicly classify cars according to body size instead of engines, and achieved great success doing it, in the 80's. By that time, electronic fuel injection had popularized to such a degree that, the coach building part had become a more expensive part of carmaking than engine manufacturing.
C stands for "cheap" or "commonplace," just kidding. It's probably a mistake when MB succeeded 190 series with the "C" designation when the company also use the same letter to stand for much more expensive coupes.
R may stand for "recreational" but more importantly, giving it a wheelbase comparable to the S class, MB was intending on taking the top end in a new direction and increase sales aggregate volume at the top end without diluting S class price premium . . . hence the "R," right next to the letter "S" in the alphabeic order. A,B,C were probably chosen for the alphabetic order to indicate their low status compared to the E and S. MB may have abandoned or made an exception to the alphabetic order when they named GL class, trying to capitalize on the Gelandewagon name that was already used in the army vehicle.
I've noticed that myself . . . It's worth repeating.
TagMan
Acura will probably succeed putting forth a HELM car in the next generation RL or the one after that, when the V10 becomes available. Developing a HELM car is actually easier than developing a successful mass market car: the R&D cost of the Maybach is only a couple hundred million, compared to 4-8 billion dollars that it takes to develop a platform like Civic nowadays. The tricky part of HELM is finding enough buyers of the car to make the whole project profitable . . . as illustrated vividly by the Phaetom experiment. The car is fine, finding buyers of the brand is the tough part.
Acura is not Saab. Honda/Acura has the money and the economy of scale that Saab never had.
There's a difference between the A6 and ES though, the A6 has usually only offered Quattro AWD here, where as the ES has always been FWD. There's no stigma about it being FWD, like say the Jaguar X-type.
A definite possibility would be an AWD ES450h. They could power the rear wheels using the electric motors, as on the RX400h.
I think there's a definitely possibility of the next one being invited to join the HELM club. I don't see any real desire on the board to include the current Q, as it only seems to show up in conversation to be the butt of a joke.
I'll admit I don't know much about the XJ's sales numbers in the early '90s, I just remember seeing a lot more of them then than I do now. I also know some XJ owning friends that have since moved on to Mercedes or BMW. I even considered an XJ6 myself, but I went with a LS400 instead.
There will have to be a major shift in the HMC culture before that can happen. Toyota and Nissan are no strangers to 200"+ cars, but Honda has never done anything like that. As was already said the question isn't can they do it, Honda has some of the most brilliant engineers in the world. Will they do it? I would say no, at least not for quite awhile. I think after the market recpetion to the RL, Honda\Acura is going to design the next one as a low-mid $40s car.
Honda skipped that segment and went straight to corporate jet.
I'm assuming you noticed Honda's new jet in the news this past month. Amazing.
Regarding the Acura HELM, I believe that the next Acura NSX will have to come first, and from there we could possibly see a branching off into a HELM sedan . . . but only maybe.
TagMan
I don't know why Audi bothers with A7. Luxury market will treat it as an afterthought after CLS, PA and the BMW.
Toyota supposedly has V12 hidden somewhere in Japan. They should bring it over here, I'm not sure V8+hybrid can hold its own against the German artillery.
To make Q worth doing, IMO Infiniti needs a V12, and I'm not sure Infiniti wants to go that far. Years ago when LS and Q debuted, V8 was the top end. MB and BMW didn't have V12, the only one on the market was in XJS. Midsize E and 5 didn't have V8, all they had was six cylinders. Now the HELM market has been taken up a notch and 2 cylinders.
V12's were historically stop-gap measures for companies that did not have V8 engines. V12's were relatively easy to make by putting two I-6's together. Porsche's own flat-6 may not lend itself to such packaging engineering.
I doubt that. While I haven't actually driven a Super V8 Portfolio, I have driven the XJR. The steering is too light and the suspension is way too soft for track duty, as seen on Fifth Gear when a CLS55 absolutely murdered a XJR on their test track. There aren't any major suspension changes to the Super V8s that I know of. They're like the XKR Silverstones of a few years ago, big wheels, some flashy bits and more luxury, but the actual running gear is the same. Also, the blown 4.2 isn't even in the same ballpark as AMG's 6.3L monster. Its only slightly more powerful than the standard S550.
According to R&T, the Panamera (as well as the rumored 2-door 928 version) will use NA and turbocharged V8s, with the V10 from the Carrera GT being a possible range topper. Power is supposed to range from 300-650hp.
Toyota supposedly has V12 hidden somewhere in Japan. They should bring it over here, I'm not sure V8+hybrid can hold its own against the German artillery.
The Toyota Century from '97 onward has offered a 5.0L V12 called the 1GZ-FE. Officially it makes 276hp, actual power is unknown. It doesn't have any of the ultra high-tech features of the new 4.6L V8 though, like direct injection and dual electric\hydraulic variable valve timing. Toyota would have to develop a new V12 from scratch in order to compete with the MB and BMW V12s and Audi W12.
To make Q worth doing, IMO Infiniti needs a V12, and I'm not sure Infiniti wants to go that far.
Nissan doesn't have a V12, even in the JDM. I dont think the Q needs one. No S600, 760 buyers will be interested in an Infiniti, period. If Infiniti can do a 4.7 or 4.8L V8 with 360hp+, and at least a 6-speed auto, they'll be fine. At least as far as the drivetrain is concerned anyway.
M
M