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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Well I heard the rumor and your disbelief motivated me to google it. As it turns out, it was indeed a rumor.

    Of course I am glad to be correct, but I must say that I appreciate your quest for the truth. Nothing like a good reality check.
    Very cool, D-man.

    TagMan
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    Same 3 LS commercials have run early in the Redskins/Bucs game on Fox. Clearly Lexus is doing a big media buy for football fans.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Thanks, Tag. It's a never-ending quest for truth, justice, the American way.
  • clarkkentclarkkent Member Posts: 154
    OK, here is my first question! How come the cars today
    are always done is bland colors?? ie: When you buy a ANY car today the interior (and most of the time) the exterior looks like seating for "The almost dead"?

    I haven't seen a 2007 car that has a good looking color scheme yet. 98% of all new car interiors are egg shell, gray, black tan, etc. NO red, blue, yellow Green.

    I used to drive Cadillac's and Jags. back in the 70's and 80's. I could get any color of leather I wanted. They were very nice. Not just all Bland! If you had a yellow Cad. you could get yellow cloth or Leather interior! That goes for green, red, blue, brown, black white, aqua, etc.

    I have not bought a new car in years and I'm not going to until I can get an interior that doens't scream (undertaker) evertime you get in!

    What's the problem? The only cars with color in the interior are the ones with the camel interior.

    No colors, no sale!
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    OK, here is my first question! How come the cars today
    are always done is bland colors??

    Good first question, superman. ;)

    While there are rare exceptions to this, you are correct!

    A major reason is that the manufacturers must make models that will sell easily and quickly. No dealer wants to be "stuck" with a car that only a tiny percentage of buyers might be interested in, and have it sits on the lot until an interested buyer finally comes along, if ever.

    If a significant percentage of buyers wanted blue, red, or green interiors, then they would be widely available.

    Over the course of many years, the color preferences for cars interiors and exteriors has made itself known. In addition, market research further illuminates the preferences of buyers.

    Quite a few years ago, for example, silver replaced white as the number one exterior color choice.

    With enough money, I am under the impression that some of the high end marques will custom build you a vehicle with your very own color and material choices for the interior.

    Perhaps that will solve your dilemna.

    BTW, Resale value could be negatively affected by an unpopular or unusual color, or could be difficult and challenging to sell . . . just a thought.

    TagMan
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Member Posts: 767
    Gary, thanks for posting the article. It seems to reflect exactly what has been discussed on this forum, especially the LS460. I could almost swear that the article was written by a member of the forum.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    It's a never-ending quest for truth, justice, the American way.

    Especially with regards to Finnish built Porsches.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    1)I could almost swear that the article was written by a member of the forum.

    Nope I am not responsible. Honest it wasn't me!

    2)Also this article posted by Garyh1 is quite insulting about Japanese German car buyers:

    But in Japan, people want something that says, 'Hey, I spent stupid money on a car. Most Lexus drivers are over 40. "They don't want to be regarded as rich or rumored to have made money by doing something wrong.

    In otherwords Japanese German car buyers are regarded as stupid, rich Soprano-type characters. I dont think that is complimentary at all.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Oooh, touche! Now, now, it was only a parody. No slight intended to our Canadian friends, among which you are a luminary!

    ;)
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    It's a never-ending quest for truth, justice, the American way.

    Actually, based on the issue under discussion, it's more like "the British way." :P

    And what a coincidence that the very next post came from none other than "clarkkent"!
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    And what a coincidence that the very next post came from none other than "clarkkent"!

    Indeed, I noticed that. Coincidence? Who knows. I'm guessing he's a first time poster whose screen name was somehow inspired by the Superman parody. Hmm, I'm wondering if anyone inspired DrFill's screen name?

    ;-)
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Excellent and good for the LS. The LS may just sweep all the awards this year. The LS Super Car! If they ever have a sour grapes award I know where to get several nominees.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The new gorgeous XK has almost the same interior layout but has essentially improved the one distinctive weakness which is the "hood" over the central navigation, audio and climate control touch-screen.

    There's also the infamous J-gate, secondary controls that feel too flimsy for the price, and some very cheap, very hard plastics that have no place anywhere in a Jaguar. That, and it just looks like an old car on the inside. The attention to detail doesn't come near that of the LS460. When Jag turns the next one into a truly modern car, I'll definitely take a look at it.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I haven't seen a 2007 car that has a good looking color scheme yet. 98% of all new car interiors are egg shell, gray, black tan, etc. NO red, blue, yellow Green.

    Buy a Maserati QP. They'll be happy to use any color leather you like.
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    Coincidence? Who knows. I'm guessing he's a first time poster whose screen name was somehow inspired by the Superman parody.

    Not a good guess this time, D-man. According to his profile, clark has been registered since 11/05,and has posted 104 times. Just new to HELM/HELC. Welcome, Clark! How are things in Metropolis these days? But hey, how about not posting the same question in so many forums?
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    When Jag turns the next one into a truly modern car, I'll definitely take a look at it.

    Well then, it just wouldn't be a Jag then. I believe the classic appearance is part of what makes it a Jag.

    It does have the modern amenities, though, such as navigation, bluetooth, rear seat DVD entertainment w/ twin headrest monitors, aluminum construction (ahead of many cars) and the rest. Modern enough, yet classic in appearance all at the same time.

    There's no right or wrong here, so no argument. Just preferences.

    If it gets too modern in appearance, or parks itself, we'd have the likes of a Lexus, God forbid. ;)

    TagMan
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Oooh, touche! Now, now, it was only a parody. No slight intended to our Canadian friends

    I've diligently googled to find proof that Porsches are assembled in Austria by a Canadian firm called Magna Steyr in Austria using such search words as:

    Magna Steyr assembly Austria
    Porsche Austria
    Canadian Porsche Assembly

    And the end result of all my googling is the picture below which happens to be a Porsche model that was recently assembled by a Canadian boy named Joel Steyr in Austria. :cry:

    image
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    And the end result of all my googling is the picture below which happens to be a Porsche model that was recently assembled by a Canadian boy in Austria.

    LOL.

    Good work, Dewey. The search engines are smokin.

    BTW, I'd pay a fair price for that cool little Porsche, and it would have a nice home on display in my office.

    I hope that Canadian boy gets the real thing one day . . . he deserves it, don't you think?

    TagMan
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    BTW, I'd pay a fair price for that cool little Porsche, and it would have a nice home on display in my office.

    Dont worry I 'll immediately find out if you can buy that model from Ebay ;)
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    :D LOL
    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Well then, it just wouldn't be a Jag then. I believe the classic appearance is part of what makes it a Jag.

    Its classic appearance is what's killing it. We've been seeing the same basic appearance since the '68 XJ6 Series 1, and almost the exact same car since the '95 "X300" XJ6. Its had a great run, but its time to let it go. Jaguar isn't McIntosh, they don't have the kind of die hard fans that will buy products that look identical to those of 30 years ago. Jag needs to stop making "heritage" sedans, and start making modern, 21st century cars that can pull buyers away from Mercedes and BMW.

    If the XJ does not modernize itself enough for today's tastes, there will be no more Jaguar, its as simple as that.
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Member Posts: 767
    1)I could almost swear that the article was written by a member of the forum.

    Nope I am not responsible. Honest it wasn't me!

    I don't think so either, not for LA times, The Globe and Mails maybe since you are from Toronto ;) .

    Here is an article on Mercedes getting mad at CR for its recent new car ranking link title
    The old S class was not spared probably due to the issues with 7 speed tranny. I hope the new LS's 8 speed one does not meet the same fate.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Thanks for that article.

    This quote:

    For its part, a spokesman for Mercedes says that the data in the Consumer Reports rankings "is totally out of sync with what we're seeing in the mainstream research..."

    Made me wonder, what "mainstream research" was the MB spokesman refering to, since the JDP IQS says largely the same thing as CR when it comes to 2006 MB models? Or was he just trying to put one past the unsuspecting public, by intimating that only CR casts MB quality/reliability in a bad light, when in fact CR has alot of company.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I agree that the next rendition needs a sleeker and more modern appearance. But, I am still a fan of the classic lines. Even with a modernization, I hope that the "look" is still recognizable as the XJ.

    I have posted before that some streamlining of the exterior would help. And certainly an interior update.

    My point is that, I still enjoy the classic Jaguar XJ . . . a lot.

    To sell more, however, you are right, and I have posted that before in the past. On this point, we are in total agreement.

    I am afraid, though, that the next rendition of the XJ will ruin the car. We'll see. But I'll bet they ruin it, by not streamlining the classic look, and instead coming up with a new poorly sculpted exterior and a horrible grill or front end treatment. Look at that grill on the S-Type, for example, and that car's gangster-looking cartoonish body lines.

    For that reason, I think this latest series of XJ's may prove to be the best in history. Unbelievable as it is, this latest generation of XJ's are reliable as heck, as proven by reliability statistics and JD Power, unlike the X-Type and S-Type that fall apart. And...they have not yet been completely destroyed by a future styling disaster. Current models could very well prove to be the last of the "good ones". And, for an amazing price as well.

    But, ultimately we'll see what happens, won't we?

    TagMan
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    GS430 & Syswei,

    1) The source of MB's anger is that CR results are not representative of the new superior quality of the 07 S , 07 E and hopefully the 07 GL. MB is aware of their scarred past and they are seeking redemption with their new and improved models. Unfortunately the latest and current CR stats are a reflection of the past and not the present.

    2) Made me wonder, what "mainstream research" was the MB spokesman refering to

    MB is referring to data that is far more comprehensive than CR/JD stats. For example:

    A) He adds: "As you're aware, the IQS included a new survey methodology by JD Power which goes well beyond the actual quality of the vehicles and into subjective measurement (an important distinction) of how customers feel about such things as the design, look and operation of features, controls and equipment."

    B) Improved customer satisfaction surveys

    C) Improved warranty data

    The above results indicates that Dr. Zetche (despite his very short lived career in advertising ) is doing a heck of a job steering MB in a postive direction. If this trend continues MB will regain their number one position in "Quality and Reliability" sooner than you may think (hopefully during our lifetimes or at least our kids lifetimes) :)
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    the new superior quality of the 07 S , 07 E and hopefully the 07 GL

    I haven't seen anything on the 07 E or GL yet, but JDP has early results on the 07 S, and I think "superior" is a word that should only be used relative to the previous-generation S, not the current competition to the S. JDP rated overall mechanical quality "about average". Hardly inspiring, imho.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Wow, what a damning article. Not only did CNN Money agree with CR about Mercedes being low quality, they also accused Mercedes of being in denial of the problem and of wanting to shoot the messenger. It certainly appears that this is true.

    Quality and reliability go hand in hand. Lexus understands this but apparently Mercedes does not. They can't even fix the brake dust problem.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    Funny you should mention the break dust problem....I think hpowders is also sick of it as I am....Does anyone know why all the German cars are confronted with this....I am sick and tired of my wheels having to be cleaned (by me) every week.. Thanks Tony
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I read that Audi still has a 60% share of the luxury car market in China. Does anyone know how they got to be so strong, historically?

    Read separately that the China auto market (total, not luxury) is on track this year to be the 2nd largest worldwide, surpassing Japan.

    And, off topic, that Buick is on track this year to sell more cars in China than in the U.S. (Probably says something abou the perception problem Buick has in the U.S.)
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Funny you should mention the break dust problem....I think hpowders is also sick of it as I am....Does anyone know why all the German cars are confronted with this....I am sick and tired of my wheels having to be cleaned (by me) every week.

    There is no doubt that Mercedes, and others are plagued with the brake dust issue. I believe I read somewhere that it has to do with the softer brake pads that Mercedes, BMW, and many others use. While they have terrific stopping capabilities, the downside is the tremendous dust.

    There are ceramic brake pad alternatives out there, and I have not tried them, but I have heard good things about them.

    If you do not want to go to ceramics, then there are also coatings that can be applied to the wheels that will help discourage the dust from building up so quickly.

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I am afraid, though, that the next rendition of the XJ will ruin the car. We'll see. But I'll bet they ruin it, by not streamlining the classic look, and instead coming up with a new poorly sculpted exterior and a horrible grill or front end treatment. Look at that grill on the S-Type, for example, and that car's gangster-looking cartoonish body lines.

    I think that if anybody can save the XJ, its Ian Callum. His Aston Martins are regarded as some of the most gorgeous cars ever made. He's no Chris Bangle. Short of having Pininfarina do the car (and even they can screw up, look at the 612, or that Enzo ruining P4\5 bubble car) he's about as good as there is. I don't think the next one will be another company killing '86 "XJ40".

    The current S-type is former designers attempt to redo this car. As I've said, Jaguar needs to stop trying to "re-imagine" the works of Sir Lyons, and start from scratch. Also, they need a healthy dose of performance. The original S-type 4.2 was the M5 of its day, outperforming anything MB or BMW could throw at it. How long has it been since Jag could say that?

    image
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Yep...that's the pic of the historical inspiration for the S-Type alright...or at the rate they're going...it actually IS the NEXT S-Type. ;)

    TagMan
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Well yes, that is the point. The brake dust problem should be easy to fix so why hasn't it been fixed by Mercedes and or BMW? They have only had about 30 years or so to address this.

    The old high performance brake pads theory doesn't really hold water because most other cars don't have this problem and they stop just as good.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I had visited China twice. I was in Changsha, Hunan during 99 and in Hangzhou, Zhejiang during 02.

    During 99 most the non-taxi vehicles appeared to be VW Santanas(Passats). During 02 I hardly saw any Santanas(I dont know where they all disappeared to?) but instead I saw a variety of updated VWs and Audis.

    So I guess the prevalence of Audis has something to do with its parent VW. I've heard lately that there are now many Mercedeses and BMWs in China. During 99 I did not see a single BMW. And I can understand why---during that time the highways were full of potholes and the city streets were overflowing with pedestrians and bikes.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    They can't even fix the brake dust problem.

    All German cars have the same brake dust problem, it is hardly a Mercedes exclusive.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    What exactly is "mechanical quality" as they define it? Engine, transmission, A/C what?

    I mean really anyone who would say that the new S-Class mechanicals are just average is beyond clueless, buyers included.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The source of MB's anger is that CR results are not representative of the new superior quality of the 07 S , 07 E and hopefully the 07 GL. MB is aware of their scarred past and they are seeking redemption with their new and improved models. Unfortunately the latest and current CR stats are a reflection of the past and not the present.

    I'm not expecting anything good for the GL, after all it shares its guts with the R and ML. The S on the other hand is a different story, or at least it should be. The 07 E-Class might go either way, they got rid of the brakes, and they fixed the nav problems, but once people who live for surveys read something bad the slightest little insignificant thing is seen as a huge "problem".

    All this time around here we've heard how deadly reliabile Lexuses were until just recentlty when certain owners decided to open up and be honest about their experiences. Nothing terrible mind you, but hardly the flawless, nothing ever happens, Maytag appliance behavior that we have so told about over and over through the years.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Nothing terrible mind you, but hardly the flawless, nothing ever happens, Maytag appliance behavior that we have so told about over and over through the years.

    I think its pretty much impossible for something as complex and with as many moving parts as a car to be "perfect" or "flawless". Consider something as comparably simple as a computer hard disk drive. Only a few moving parts, and yet a failure rate of around 1% is pretty much industry standard. Seagate is "the Lexus of hard drives", and all of mine have lasted 10 years or more. Still, there are plenty who complain about bad experiences with Seagate.

    I think that what will probably happen in the next 20 years or so is that manufacturing methods will improve to the point where pretty much all cars, both mainstream and high end, will be as reliable as is reasonably possible.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I think that what will probably happen in the next 20 years or so is that manufacturing methods will improve to the point where pretty much all cars, both mainstream and high end, will be as reliable as is reasonably possible.

    Well I'm at the point of thinking Mercedes will never get this right in some people's eyes so if the 07' S-Class doesn't signal a change I can't worry about it anymore. I'm going to buy what I want anyway. On every forum on MBWorld there are problems with plenty of pre-07 models like the E,S,R,ML and the 07 GL, but with the new S there is nothing and the owners there report no problems, and some of them are going on 9 or 10 months of ownership. They all say the car is flawless, many of them that were disgusted with the W220. A small sample of owners true, maybe about 20-30, but the board itself has about 35K members. If an equally small sample of R/ML/GL owners complain about problems and it shows up on the surveys, the opposite should be true next year for the 07 S-Class. If not I say the hell with it, I'm done with surveys and the discussion of them. I can save everyone the trouble of waiting on the 07 surveys regarding the GL450, it will be the same story as the ML and R. Too many folks over there reporting problems.

    M
  • jsandsjsands Member Posts: 3
    I am interested in buying an S class next year. I thought this forum would be a good site to get information about what new owners like and don't like about the car and, perhaps even more important considering its checkered past, how reliable it is. But the forum, like the "HELM" before it, is not focused on the S class, Mercedes, or even large sedans. While I have no objection to a general forum on all luxury and near luxury cars, why not have a forum about the S class only and simply send entries about everything else elsewhere. It makes no sense to me to place this discursive forum on the Mercedes group under "S class" when almost all the entries have nothing to do with this car.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    What exactly is "mechanical quality" as they define it? Engine, transmission, A/C what?

    I should have been more specific. JDP's wording is "mechanical quality - manufacturing" and I think it is all those things you mentioned, in the way that IQS measures "problems", and does not include "design". 3 stars out of 5, "about average" according to their site.

    I mean really anyone who would say that the new S-Class mechanicals are just average is beyond clueless, buyers included.

    I think you are talking about what JDP would call "mechanical quality - design" (as distinguished from malfunction type problems), where the 2007 S rates 4.5 stars out of 5.

    link title
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    See the link in the previous post for early 2007 S reliability data, JDP-style.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    How was your TOL experience?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I think you are talking about what JDP would call "mechanical quality - design" (as distinguished from malfunction type problems), where the 2007 S rates 4.5 stars out of 5.

    Thanks for the link. According to JDP the 07 S-Class is "Among the best" or "Better than most" in:

    Comfort
    Features and Instrument Panel
    Style
    Performance
    Overall Appeal
    Mechanical Quality - Design

    And it is is average or slightly below average in :

    Mechanical Quality - Manufacturing
    Feature and Accessory Quality - Manufacturing
    Overall Quality - Design

    Body and Interior Quality - Design:

    Body and Interior Design Quality
    Taken from the Initial Quality Study (IQS), which looks at owner-reported problems in the first 90 days of new-vehicle ownership, this score is based on problems with the front-/rear-end styling, the appearance of interior and exterior, and the sound of doors when closing.

    Who buys a car if they truly have a "problem" with how it looks? Doesn't make sense. If styling was that serious of a problem why take the car home? A lot of their criteria is really personal preference, which is even more puzzling because if I didn't like the way the car was "designed" I wouldn't buy it.

    M
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    This discussion is about all nine of the cars listed in the header at the top of the page and it shows up under each one. We do have a separate S-Class board. You'll see this discussion listed, but there are also several dedicated to just the S-Class.

    Hope this helps - drop me an email if I can help you any further. My address is pat AT edmunds.com

    And welcome!! :)
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    We all went through a discussion when JDP added "design" criteria to the IQS and I think the consensus was that "design" shouldn't really be in the IQS. Maybe it deserves a separate survey.

    So when I look at that site I tend to ignore the "design" categories. Whether I like some aspect of "design" is something I can decide for myself, like you suggested. If I'm trying to get a picture of quality/reliability, it is the "manufacturing" categories that are most relevant, I think.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I recently met a friend whose brother-in-law is the one and only qualified MB SLR McLaren mechanic in Canada. In fact he serviced Pope John Paul's Popemobile when he did a brief visit in Toronto.

    I learned some interesting tidbits about the SLR McLaren and the mechanic:

    In Toronto this mechanic has his very own service area that is exclusively used for SLR McLarens. He is continuosly complaining about how problematical SLRs are. They are always being returned for him to repair. The ultra fibre frame of the SLR has a tendecy to bend.

    If an SLR owner lives in the east Coast or west coast of Canada their car will be picked up by MB Canada with a truck so that the SLR can be repaired and serviced thousands of miles away in Toronto. Unfortunately if the SLR warranty expires or non-warranty repairs occur then the owner himeself will have to pay for the transport.

    The seats are custom measured for maximum comfort for the owners rump and back. Turns out most the seats are very wide since the owners tend to be very plump.(I guess no narrow sport seats?)

    Is this $CDN 700K (614K US$) worth it?

    Maybe? Assuming you are affluent and indifferent to CR reports then the SLR McLaren may be just the car for you ;)
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    More active imagination. I like it, in and out.

    http://www.infomotori.com/a_40_IT_8068_1.html
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The pictures look ok.

    Personally I'd prefer it if it has only two doors, no rear seats and they change the name from Panamera to something more numeral-like as 911.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Toyota/Lexus Models Rank at Bottom of Crash-Safety Study

    By Greg Bensinger

    Nov. 21 (Bloomberg) -- Toyota Motor Corp., whose vehicles earn top marks for buyer satisfaction, has more models than any other automaker ranked at the bottom of a crash-protection study.

    Toyota and its Lexus division accounted for nine of 16 vehicles with ``acceptable,'' ``marginal'' or ``poor'' rear- impact protection, lowering their overall rating, the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety said today. Models included the Toyota Camry and the Lexus GS 350.

    ``The lower-rated cars may turn off some buyers,'' said Rebecca Lindland, an analyst with Global Insight Inc. in Lexington, Massachusetts. Poor safety ratings are more likely than high rankings to sway buyers because ``people tend to think their cars are safe, unless they hear otherwise,'' she said.

    SOURCE: BLOOMBERG
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