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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    it is bland and boring to me

    It's boring even before you drive it? Wow, I can't even imagine what you will be saying after you take it around the racetrack - especially following a lap in the Targa!

    I haven't even seen one close up yet, but I am concerned that the SWB is all the size I want and need, but it can't be outfitted with the upgraded suspension, and it probably will never get AWD.

    I'll be interested to see how much "de-Banglized" the next 7 will be the spy pictures give me some hope on that (were those pictures from early October posted on here while I was on hiatus? If not, here's a link). And if I could only get beyond the ugliness of the "bass-mouth" of the A8 and my concern about service from the local dealer, it likely would be my next car. It's still going to take more time for me to warm up to the exterior of the S - if ever.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    It's boring even before you drive it? Wow, I can't even imagine what you will be saying after you take it around the racetrack - especially following a lap in the Targa!

    I'm sure an invigorating drive in the LS is all it will take to make me forget about that S600. ;)

    It's still going to take more time for me to warm up to the exterior of the S - if ever.

    I assume you are referring to the trunk? A bit too chunky?

    TagMan
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    .

    While Volkswagen and Mercedes already sell diesels in the U.S. market, BMW has no plans to do so any time soon and declines to use the BLUETEC name, currently being used to help sell Mercedes-Benz E 320s that run on ultra low sulphur diesel in the U.S.

    I think BMW is doing a big mistake. Fuel efficiency is becoming of greater importance for luxury/nonluxury and performance/non-performance vehicles

    SOURCE:REUTERS
  • guestguest Member Posts: 770
    What's with the comparison LS vs. S600?

    That's not what Lexus is going for! These cars aren't comparable, in price, power, or exclusivity. :confuse:

    But if you insist on comparing them, maybe Lexus is doing better than I thought!

    Having driven both the S550 and LS460L back-to-back, let me reiterate that the LS is clearly better-looking, has similar quality of materials inside, I had no footwell problems, was close to being as fast, if not as fast, and the Benz was a little more happy on the TOL driving course.

    Considering the mistake-free, NON-slabsided exterior, easy to use, but quite luxurious interior, ample power, with vise-free handling (didn't roll or squeal once under two rather intense drives), it is a remarkable improvement on a car that had few faults to start with.

    I've driven a late-90's E420, and I remember the seats being......hard, not firm. The leather was not there to make me feel comforted.

    Driving the LS and S, I didn't notice much of a difference on that note. I thought both seats were appropriately soft, without being mushy and non-supportive. Lexus has influenced Mercedes here, there is no doubt. :)

    DrFill
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Thanks to the rest of you with regards to the Targa...but, until I take delivery next Tuesday, it's not "official". I'll post after the final "official" outcome

    I am planning to order a 2013 Porsche 911 Carerra S. I haven't phoned a Porsche dealership yet but I will definitely leave Nov. 15th, 2012 6:30PM free for a test drive. ;)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The Automobile Journalists Association of Canada did not award the MB S or Lexus LS as the prestige car for 2007. They chose the Audi S8 instead.

    At least you and I can agree that Audi is the best automaker in the HELC segment . Unfortunately Lexus has a long long way to go in terms of introducing a car like the Audi S8.

    Prestige Car (over $75,000): A new record was set here for the most expensive vehicle to ever win an AJAC award, when the $150,250 Audi S8 claimed victory over the Lexus LS 460L and Mercedes-Benz S550. .

    BestCarsfor2007
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Car of the year in Japan, Popular Mechanics Top Luxury Car Award of Excellence, AutoWeek Top Luxury Car. And they are just getting started folks.

    To quote AutoWeek. "The new LS has them stammering in Stuttgart, shaking in Swabia, and incredulous in Ingolstadt. Lexus has upset the balance in the luxury car market".

    I expect this will become more and more apparent in the coming months.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    What's with the comparison LS vs. S600?

    Doc...I checked my comments and they were only to illustrate the stark contrast, not comparison, between the two.

    These cars aren't comparable, in price, power, or exclusivity.

    Exactly...no comparison.

    You say that the LS is better looking, but that's only your opinion, because the looks of the LS put me to sleep.

    The LS460 is boring from the standpoint of looks, but I haven't driven it yet, and unless it somehow is full of driving excitement, I don't see it's advantage when there are other more beautiful cars out there.

    I'm sorry, Doc, but this is not personal, I promise.

    I just don't see these LS cars as being worth their ridiculously high prices. All that plastic inside, and while they may be an improvement over the previous models, they've got a ways to go in the looks department, especially for those kinds of price tags.

    Personally, I really think the cars are very much like upscale Toyotas. That's what I see when I look at them. Upscale Toyotas.

    The LS460 looks like a $50K car.
    The LS460L looks like a $60K car.
    The LS600hL looks like a $75K car.

    But, please do not take this personal. Your opinions are fine with me, and I respect the Lexus vehicles for their ultra reliability. They are good cars...and boring, IMO.

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    On the other hand, the Audi S8 and S600 left me wishing for one and truly admiring them. Big (really big) difference that can't be ignored.

    True, very true. The problem with the LS460 is that the design inside and out has nothing special to it. The interior design is the same as the new Camry, only turned up a quite a bit in the way of features and materials. The car continues to be the plain paper bag luxury car.

    The thanks part has been taken care of.... ;)

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Considering the mistake-free, NON-slabsided exterior, easy to use, but quite luxurious interior, ample power, with vise-free handling (didn't roll or squeal once under two rather intense drives), it is a remarkable improvement on a car that had few faults to start with.

    Keep telling yourself this and the design won't appear slab-sided to you anymore, but it is. That crease at the upper part of the body is really off too.

    I've driven a late-90's E420, and I remember the seats being......hard, not firm. The leather was not there to make me feel comforted.

    I see the problem with your test drive and Topspin's both of you are comparing a 2007 Benz to one that was designed in the 80's (1995 E420) or even earlier in the case of Topspin's test drive. To sit here and say that Lexus has influenced Mercedes is a ridiculous if you can't see where the LS' series entire being is due to Mercedes. A few cues from Lexus for Mercedes pales, doesn't even compare to a lifetime of envy and up until now blatant copying.

    A S-Class is supposed to be plusher than a E or ML, no matter what year they are.

    M
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    It's still going to take more time for me to warm up to the exterior of the S - if ever.

    I assume you are referring to the trunk? A bit too chunky?


    "Chunky" is putting it nicely. But my bigger problem is with the oversized wheel arches, especially the front ones. They make the car look like it is a crouching cat.

    Judging only from the pictures I've seen, the new LS looks pretty well proportioned with a "clean design". That's what I loved about the previous S. But somehow I don't suppose you called that exterior "boring"? I think the previous LS's exterior could more justifiably be called boring than the new one. But of course, that's just IMO.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Good grief, if the same people are going to post 20 times a day just to bash the LS, then at least come up with something new to whine about. We get the message. You are intimidated and you fear this car. Now take a break and try to come up with something constructive and positive for a change.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Houdini,

    no need to get so defensive. But since you are in defensive mode I'd like the priviledge of tweaking your nose a bit more with the following from Forbes about the LS:

    1)Not all of the new technology on the LS 460 has such palpable advantages. Lexus demonstrated the car’s self-parking feature, which uses cameras and sensors to parallel-park itself, using an unrealistically large parking space and wouldn’t let us try the system in a normal-size spot.

    Having said that, this new Japanese super-sedan challenges the widely accepted notion that the Germans are wrong in pursuing their attempts to concentrate as many control functions as possible onto a central computer joystick or controller. BMW’s system is called iDrive, Mercedes-Benz has Comand and Audi’s is called MMI (Multi-Media Interface).

    + click to enlarge | view gallery >

    Lexus, instead, has a riot of buttons and switches, some of them half-hidden, with sometimes-incomprehensible acronyms. Air-suspension settings, an electric parking brake, brake hold, radar cruise control with distance-setting control, four-zone climate control, 16-way power driver’s seat, 12-way front passenger seat, a complex 19-speaker audio system, an embedded 30-gigabyte hard drive for both music and navigation-data storage, navigation system, Bluetooth telephone integration, parking assist plus a totally automatic parallel-parking system, rain-sensing wipers, heated steering wheel, heated and cooled seats, power mirrors, pivoting headlights … these and other features, some standard and some optional, all require switches, buttons, knobs and a touch-sensitive screen. And that’s just for the driver; in the long-wheelbase L version, various upgrade options can litter the huge between-the-seats rear console with controls as well.

    2)A caveat: Even with the front passenger seat fully forward, the ottoman feature won’t allow longer-legged rear-seaters to stretch out.


    3)anything, the eight-speed Lexus transmission seems a bit busier than the seven-speed in the Mercedes-Benz S-Class, which is almost imperceptible in operation. The LS’ slightly numb-feeling electric steering also suffers a mite in comparison to the Mercedes mechanical rack-and-pinion system

    4)Amid all the electronic marvels aboard the new LS, the one sure to be most frequently demonstrated to slack-jawed neighbors is the hands-off parallel-parking system, which automatically backs and steers the LS into a curbside gap. (It’ll also automatically back the car into a space between two cars in a parking lot.) Lexus demonstrated the system to automotive writers using a curbside gap a full eight feet longer than the car itself — hardly a typical urban parallel-parking spot. When I insisted they make the space smaller, they closed it up by less than two feet … and then refused to let me do the test parking, saying they “didn’t want to risk the car’s paint job.”

    A Lexus representative let me watch the system do its job, which involved about 20 seconds of programming via the dash-mounted navigation screen, but I was impressed only by how much money I’d save by not ordering this option ($1,200 on the LS 460 L and $6,845 on the LS 460, because it’s bundled with other pricey options).


    5)You prefer scintillating driving dynamics, in which case a top German sedan might prove a better choice
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I believe that the Forbes writeup is yet another realistic perspective on the LS. It reflects my sentiment very closely.
    Thanks, Dewey.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Judging only from the pictures I've seen, the new LS looks pretty well proportioned with a "clean design". That's what I loved about the previous S. But somehow I don't suppose you called that exterior "boring"? I think the previous LS's exterior could more justifiably be called boring than the new one.

    You are comparing the old S to the new LS?

    In any event, I agree with you that the old LS was even more boring than the new one, but with regards to the old S, that vehicle would be more appropriately compared to the old LS, and not the new one. In its time, however, the previous S was a sleek beauty, while the old LS was a box.

    I actually do think that at the very end of its cycle, the previous S was getting a little old in the tooth, and was quite ripe for a change. This isn't uncommon, however, for a vehicle to need an update by the end of its cycle. The LS needed one, too.

    Now we have a more dramatic and contemporary S, which is applauded by most, but there are some folks that haven't warmed up to it. That's fine, because those folks can always get an "improved", but still boring, LS.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Just to be clear, and avoid any over-reactive defensiveness, my posts about the LS styling have nothing to do with the merits of the car and where they are deserved.

    I have posted that the styling is rather bland and boring, and that there is a considerably large amount of hard plastic surrounding the instrument cluster and in the center stack. I have also indicated that the dash/stack/console layout is a common layout and is typical in many cars, including economy cars. Lastly, I have indicated that the LS reflects the appearanc of an upscale Toyota. I also think it may have become overpriced.

    These criticisms should not be misunderstood to mean that I have lost respect for the LS. It is perhaps the most reliable vehicle ever built, with some of the best fit and finish I've ever seen. It is obviously built with precision, and offers one of the finest sound systems in any car at any price. Quality is overflowing.

    I still believe, as always, that it is a serious contender in the HELC segment. Anyone that chooses such a car, would undoubtedly get a vehicle that will most likely deliver trouble-free comfortable transportation for many years. There is something to be said for that.

    I just want to make sure that it is clear that I am not bashing the vehicle just because I am willing to see both sides of the equation.

    TagMan
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    Yeah guys, but it parks itself. I don't know about you, but I've been fearing a car that can park itself for a while now, dreading it, shaking in my boots. Houdini got it right, we are all terrified of this self parking Toyota.........Hilarious
    I'm posting this from under my bed with all of the lights turned off. Ooops, my cell phone just went off, ieeeaggghhh the new LS just parked itself on top of me. Somebody call 911.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    About 90% of all the interest, posts and discussions here are about the LS. An unprecedented amount of interest is being shown in the LS. That leaves about 10% of whatever time is left to discuss the other 7 or 8 cars. This probably reflects the interest of the general population as well. I am sure that Lexus appreciates the interest, I know I do.

    Oh, and Dewey, if you want a nose tweaking contest just tell us about all those fabulous Canadian Car Companies. How you doing with those these days? ;)

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Oh, and Dewey, if you want a nose tweaking contest just tell us about all those fabulous Canadian Car Companies. How you doing with those these days?

    Are you referring to this 1974 Canadian classic called the Bricklin? Canadian Bricklins and American Cadillacs and Lincolns are hardly ever mentioned in these forums. What a shame.

    image
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    About 90% of all the interest, posts and discussions here are about the LS. An unprecedented amount of interest is being shown in the LS.

    Well, of course. For goodness sakes, it is the only one at the moment that has just been launched as a new model.

    And with additional all-time new models such as the LS460L and the upcoming LS600hL. On top of that it is a big-seller in the U.S. market as well.

    I'd say those are some good reasons.

    But, if the percentage of chatter somehow makes you feel better about the shortcomings of the vehicles, then help yourself . . . but you'd only be fooling yourself. Because in reality, regardless of how much chit-chat, the cars are still exactly the same.

    TagMan
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Glad to see that you agree with my assessment, but you are wrong about the reason being the new model introduction. This forum has been dominated by the LS for as long as I can remember (a few months anyway). All anyone could talk about for 6 months before the introduction was the LS. It got as much attention before it was introduced as it does now.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,684
    Memories... Ahh, the Bricklin. To this then 14 year old, this was a car to lust after. My father actually had a deposit down on one. When the first one arrived at our local dealer (which, if I remember, also sold Triumphs and Fiats. I also wanted a TR7 and an X1/9. I probably got my appreciation of the odd car from my father whose first car that I remember him having was a Borgward. I'm sure that it was an HELC in it's day...), we cruised on down to give it the once over. Oy! I think I could have screwed a car together better than the lovely white example gracing the showroom floor. The windshield did not come close to fitting being the most glaring imperfection in my memory. Anyhow, Dad immediately cancelled the order and ended up buying a Datsun 260Z. My lust was satisfied, although I had to wait a couple of year to drive it.

    Thanks for the trip in the Wayback Machine, Dewey. And it still looks pretty good to me. Is it yours?

    And current lust? Jag XK. They had to drag me out of it at the Auto Show. I think I dropped my free Scion key ring in the Jag, but not my Suzuki waterbottle or Hyundai beach blanket. Ah, to have the tastes of a king and the pursestrings of a pauper... :(

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    In short they said this car just did not have what it takes. They said the RS4 and the TT did a better job of combining chassis control with ride comfort.

    Bottom line. "If the Audi S6 wants to get the same respect in the U.S. as the BMW M5 and the Mercedes E63, it needs a more refined suspension, better handling and, of course, more power". They called it "a heavy dancer with big feet". Ouch. Pretty harsh words for a car that costs almost $80,000.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    All anyone could talk about for 6 months before the introduction was the LS. It got as much attention before it was introduced as it does now.

    There was increased buzz about the new S-Class before, during, and after its intro as well.

    Heck, the '07 LS had its own forum prior to its intro, but I'm not sure if it hasn't changed once the car was officially released . . . all part of the "new vehicle" chatter.

    Bottom line thought is that all the talk in the world won't make the LS any different than it actually is . . . and that all becomes a matter for the reviewers and all of our opinions.

    I never said the news surrounding the new LS is boring, just the body style . . . and once I drive it, it's quite possible that it will deliver a boring drive as well.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Good memories indeed. :)

    And, your current lust is right on target, IMO.

    TagMan
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484

    I see the problem with your test drive and Topspin's both of you are comparing a 2007 Benz to one that was designed in the 80's (1995 E420) or even earlier in the case of Topspin's test drive. To sit here and say that Lexus has influenced Mercedes is a ridiculous if you can't see where the LS' series entire being is due to Mercedes. A few cues from Lexus for Mercedes pales, doesn't even compare to a lifetime of envy and up until now blatant copying.

    A S-Class is supposed to be plusher than a E or ML, no matter what year they are.


    No, apparently you don't see the problem, since I spent now 2 days with the S550 and LS at the same time. :blush:

    The leather was nite and day better than a 90's E420, which is no excuse for having leather less appealing than a Geo Prism Lsi! :mad:

    C&D made mention as much of the LS' influence, when they tested the 2000 S430 against the LS, in one of the LS' wins over the S-Class, as the 1999 model developed a "tropical" interior, with colors and textures reminiscent of the LS. Too bad the interior didn't function like an LS. :cry:

    I have no problem saying the last S-Class was clearly better-looking than the LS was. But that script has flipped. "My Humps" is not even really close to the LS on that front now.

    So I guess your point is because the LS was inspired to meet, or exceed, the S from the satrt, that Mercedes couldn't possibly learn a new trick from the LS? Keep repeating that until someone believes it. That class is still in session. ;)

    Tag

    Sorry the LS doesn't impress you, but the New S has the same effect on me. It's rear end is GM-bad, and it's interior is no better in materials or appeal than the LS, plus it is still harder to use.

    For a car asking $86k to start, it better be impressive. VERY impressive! I don't see anything there to be impressed by but a legendary badge.

    I guess those saddlebags remove any slab-sided design, but, on second thought, maybe a slab-side wouldn't have been such a bad idea?

    DrFill
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Sorry the LS doesn't impress you, but the New S has the same effect on me.

    It is interesting to me how we see this so totally opposite one another, but that's what makes the world go 'round.

    Let me tell you that I do appreciate that you and I can have a difference of opinion without getting personally insulting (unlike some of these other posters) . . . you've got class, Doc.

    TagMan
  • esfesf Member Posts: 1,020
    The LS460 doesn't really impress me, either. It looks unendingly boring on the road- an LS460L drove right in front of my face, and when I glanced at it I thought it was an ES. But then it kept going, and going, and going... so I finally saw the back and it said "LS460L".

    If you have the means, the S550 is the only way to go in this class. It's dazzlingly beautiful. To say the interior isn't more appealing than the LS's is like saying the Audi A8's interior isn't nicer than the 7 Series's. The S-Class has a beautifully executed interior, whereas the LS460's looks almost identical to any other sedan in Lexus's lineup. A flagship sedan is supposed to be special, different, exclusive. The S-Class, A8, 7er and even XJ all fit this rule. The LS seems to be the only one that didn't get the memo.

    '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Let's compare the interiors of the LS to the S-Class.

    Here's the LS: Extremely common and typical dash/center stack/console layout, old stale idea in use for years. Nice, well-executed and functional, but nothing unique ... as these 3 pics show ...

    image

    image

    image

    And now here's the S-Class interior: Much less typical and less common, contemporary, unique, representing a new modern appearance and fresh theme. Very graceful as shown by these 3 pics ...

    image

    image

    image

    :)

    TagMan
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Continually throwing the ES into the converstaion is irrelevant, since the C-Class has aped the S-Class for generations, and nobody brings that up. Does the C-Class cheapen the S' looks? That plane flies both ways.

    I enjoy the New ES' looks too, (finally)! :)

    Tag

    The S-Class interior borrows from the 7 HEAVILY. More than the LS does from the 7 on the outside. I think I've seen this movie before (and didn't like it).

    So what was "unique" 4 years ago (uniquely bad) in the BMW is now the hot stuff in the Benz?

    When you are running to BMW for interior design ideas, your walking blind without a cane, my friend!

    Apparently Mercedes doesn't like it's own interiors too much, since they radically change with every generation. Maybe their customers are saying "Try Again, please!"

    How about doing the same with the 7 and S?

    Thanks for illustrating my point so well! ;)

    'Ppreciate dat!

    DrFill
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Member Posts: 767
    And now here's the S-Class interior: Much less typical and less common, contemporary, unique, representing a new modern appearance and fresh theme.

    I know this is subjective, but it looks off-balance to me.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The S-Class interior borrows from the 7 HEAVILY.

    I disagree. The 7's interior dash is basically a straight line from driver's to passenger's side, while the S's is curvaceous. The 7's has seat controls on the sides of the center console, not the S, and the 7's central dash is illogically littered with buttons, switches, and knobs... nothing like the S-Class's very clean layout at all.

    Apparently Mercedes doesn't like it's own interiors too much, since they radically change with every generation. Maybe their customers are saying "Try Again, please!"

    Oh, now I understand... that's why manufacturers change the exterior... customers are saying "Try again, please."
    As you should know, sarcasm doesn't get any point across at all.

    Your sarcasm aside, in real life most folks appreciate and eagerly anticipate new body styles with every new model cycle... or even a mid-cycle refresh.

    So, it also makes sense to re-style the interiors of cars as well. Not an easy accomplishment, but Mercedes rose to the occasion. Lexus only tweaked the same old interior dash/center stack/console layout, while Mercedes S-Class interior represents a more recent and contemporary restyle.

    TagMan
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Gotta agree with drfill here. All very subjective but the Lexus looks much more modern and tasteful to me. Different strokes.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    So, it also makes sense to re-style the interiors of cars as well. Not an easy accomplishment, but Mercedes rose to the occasion. Lexus only tweaked the same old interior dash/center stack/console layout, while Mercedes S-Class interior represents a more recent and contemporary restyle.

    Contemporary to what? Buyers wanted the LS to offer AWD, more trunk sapce, more rear seat room, more features, more power. Lexus delivered.

    Apparently, the interior design was not a problem, or else changes would've been made. Having driven the car, I don't see any problem with the interior. I expected a great interior and got it. Luxurious, easy-to-use, and not changing for changes sake. ;)

    Merc has constantly, ad-nausium, put up pics of Mercedes evolution in exterior styling. But they are at best inconsistent on interior styling, as the 1998, 2000, and 2006 have little incommon with each other. I didn't know the wheel needed reinvention. :confuse: Mercedes interiors aren't "restyled", they are thrown out and started from scratch!

    And the interior relationship to BMW is well-known and unmistakable. How is it gonna be recent and contemporary, if it mocks a 5 year-old design? Denial is not just a river in Egypt :blush:

    The S-Class is a step back, inside and out. Still a fine car and all, but nothing for Lexus to fear. Lexus has it right, and Mercedes is trying to find an interior identity, and maybe seperate it's design from Maybach, which is better (from the last S500/600)

    I see chinks in the armor.

    And the rear end is AWFUL. AWFUL! It's just AWFUL! :sick:

    DrFill
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    ... and not changing for changes sake.

    Change is an ongoing process in the automobile industry.

    Merc has constantly, ad-nausium, put up pics of Mercedes evolution in exterior styling. But they are at best inconsistent on interior styling, as the 1998, 2000, and 2006 have little incommon with each other. I didn't know the wheel needed reinvention.

    Meaningless point.

    And the interior relationship to BMW is well-known and unmistakable. How is it gonna be recent and contemporary, if it mocks a 5 year-old design?

    Now this is interesting. You have already admitted that the LS has got lots of BMW exterior styling... which is quite a few years old, yet suddenly you brag about the new and improved exterior styling, but on the other hand you say it is old BMW styling. You seem to use the BMW example only when it works for your argument, but discard it when it comes to the LS exterior styling, which is clearly borrowed from the BMW.

    The S-Class is a step back, inside and out.

    What kind of remark is THAT?
    That's your opinion perhaps, but not the opinion of most reviewers and critics, and certainly not mine.

    TagMan
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Thanks for the trip in the Wayback Machine. And it still looks pretty good to me. Is it yours?

    Nope that Bricklin is not mine. And today I certainly would not want to search frantically for Bricklin replacement parts. Good luck for anyone attempting such an endeavor!

    Dad immediately cancelled the order and ended up buying a Datsun 260Z.

    Sounds like your dad was quite an enthusiast. During 1974 my dad drove a dated 1967 Ford Custom 500 and vowed never ever to buy a BMW again after owning a problematical BMW Isetta during the late 50s when he worked overseas.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    It is almost certain that the exterior and interior styling of the next generation BMW 7 Series will be emulated by both Lexus and MB in fuutre years.

    And future Audi models will continue having a distinct and independent design as always. There is no single Audi that can be referred to as a BMW or MB wannabe.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    There is no single Audi that can be referred to as wanting to be a BMW or MB wannabe.

    Really? Just read the current Audi S6 follow-up here on Edmunds where it tried to be a BMW and/or MB but failed miserably!!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    These are some nice pictures, giving a person a great chance to see the different layouts....As I had a series of Lexus cars ( ls) for a number of years, I can attest to the ease of use, and further can say imo that the video screen (if that is what it is called) on the German cars is too small..
    I see where Lexus has a really large one, and it stands out in such a manner that it would be hard to design around...On my current A8 the screen rotates away which is one of my favorite features, as I dislike it`s constant presence...
    At first I was not to sure about the fender flares on the Mercedes as pictured by Merc, but after seeing the car firsthand I thought it to be quite interesting, and think it will age well....I guess I got jaded back in the eighties, so appreciate reliability to a larger degree....So far the Audi has aged well , but I still have my guard up as I remember the past....
    Unfortunately Lexus has jumped the price quite a bit, therefore the value factor that I have grown accustomed to may be waning--unless the Germans quickly ratchet upward...Tony
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Well, the Targa came in today and even though it cannot be delivered to anyone before November 28th, it was serviced and I drove it. Very nice, but I'm not all that impressed with the Tiptronic. One other little hang up is that when the glass roof panel slides back (open) all the way, it's lower edge (which contains the screen motor) blocks the entire lower 50% of rear window visibility. That was a total surprise I would have never anticipated. So, I left there needing to sleep on it.

    Instead of going back home, I test drove the Mercedes SL550 and then the Jaguar XK. I figured if I was talking automatics here, I might as well test two more of the sweetest ones out there.

    The SL550 was incredibly more powerful than the SL500 I had recently driven. The car handled beautifully and was smooth as silk. The retractable hardtop was wonderful. I left liking the SL.

    The XK was amazingly faster than I expected, since the car is so light. Unfortunately the transmission kept getting confused about whether or not it was in automatic mode or manual mode. So, when it was in automatic mode, and I used the paddle shifter, it sometimes would not revert back to automatic mode. In addition, in the manual mode, it didn't respond properly to the paddle commands every time. The salesman said it obviously needed to be fixed. If it hadn't been for that fussy transmission, I'd have had a better test drive. But, nevertheless, I was still able to get a good idea of how the car handles. I left liking the XK, but I think it is a little bigger than I want to go at this point in time.

    That leaves the Porsche with that Tiptronic, or the SL550.

    I'll probably need to drive them both again tomorrow.

    BTW, what's with those goofy cupholders in both of these German cars? The Porsche's cupholders are pathetic. I'd be scared to death to use them with a big hot cup of Starbucks. And the SL's are questionable, although the Mercedes salesman suggested I get the Mercedes beverage cup which is made to fit the cupholder. Goodness gracious, does anyone here have experience with the cupholders in the recent 911 or the recent SL?

    TagMan
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    ... and not changing for changes sake.

    Change is an ongoing process in the automobile industry.

    Merc has constantly, ad-nausium, put up pics of Mercedes evolution in exterior styling. But they are at best inconsistent on interior styling, as the 1998, 2000, and 2006 have little incommon with each other. I didn't know the wheel needed reinvention.

    Meaningless point.

    And the interior relationship to BMW is well-known and unmistakable. How is it gonna be recent and contemporary, if it mocks a 5 year-old design?

    Now this is interesting. You have already admitted that the LS has got lots of BMW exterior styling... which is quite a few years old, yet suddenly you brag about the new and improved exterior styling, but on the other hand you say it is old BMW styling. You seem to use the BMW example only when it works for your argument, but discard it when it comes to the LS exterior styling, which is clearly borrowed from the BMW.


    Change IS part of the automotive industry.

    Continuous Improvement (or kaisen) is not. Do I need to point out Exhibit A?

    The meaningless point you overlook is how Mercedes goes to such pains to show an evolutionary design theme outside, but that philosophy gets thrown out of the window when you get inside?

    YOU use the BMW to prove your point, but YOU are being hippocritical. :(

    The LS has some elements of the 7 series in the rear end (Only far better done).

    The S has some elements of the 7-series interior, and they are no better off for it. The last S-Class interior was clearly better. So good, in fact, the Maybach borrows heavily from it. And I've heard no complaints about the Maybach interiors, have you?

    I haven't heard many kudos for the 7-series interior, but Mercedes seems to like it well enough.

    Just not having COMAND or iDrive keeps the LS ahead of the others.

    Maybe you want something flashy, or more eye-popping, but Lexus is only guilty of not screwing up a great thing.

    I wish I could say the same for the 7 or S-Class.

    The 1995-2000 7 was clearly better turned out than the current model, and the S has not learned from that history.

    Those who do not learn from history.......:cry:

    DrFill
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    You have expressed quite a negative sentiment regarding the S-Class. Yet, when you drove it, you were more complimentary of the vehicle as I recall.

    Obviously you do not like the Mercedes S-Class, and you prefer the Lexus LS. That's fine, but it doesn't change my opinion of the LS. I still think it gets credit for a terrific fit and finish and top-notch quality. I just do not think that it's appearance, interior or exterior, are as exciting as other cars in these high price categories.

    I guess, with all its credits, I wish it were more exciting a vehicle. That would get me to consider one. But as it is, it's just too mainstream and plain.

    The way I see it, the LS needs more pizazz!

    Remember, Doc, there is no right or wrong here, just our opinions. And, I think we already know each others point of view. So let's let it rest.

    Help me out with the Porsche Tiptronic 911 vs. SL550 dilemma. :confuse:

    TagMan
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Just to be correct about it, I don't have a particular problem with the S-Class as it stands alone, except for the rear end. The car is a world-class luxury car, and at the end of the day, we are splitting hairs.

    If you can call the S-Class more exciting or it has more pizazz, go with that. But don't sell that to me, 'cus I ain't buyin' it. I prefer the last one.

    The S-Class drives great, as does the LS, which only hastens the point, why buy the S-Class over the LS? That's all I'm sayin'

    Regarding the Porsche vs SL, if you want slush, stick with Mercedes. I think it's blasphemy to desecrate a Porsche with a killjoy.

    Porsches are for fun, so a slushbox is not an option.

    I was kinda hopin' you could drive, Tag. Sorry to hear that. :sick:

    DrFill
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Well, as you know, Doc, every sports car I've ever owned has had a stick. That's probably why when I drove the Tiptronic for the first time in my life (today) I was disappointed.

    Terrible situation here. I have to go very easy on the neck, and yet, I want to have some fun behind the wheel.

    Oh well.

    TagMan
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Fair enough. Sorry I doubted you. ;)

    The only automatic that maybe as good/better than it's counterpart is the one in the F430. Or a 2001 Mustang.

    DrFill
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,684
    Yes, Dad enjoys his cars. Usually a little off-center including a (I think the year was) 1956 Mercedes 300(?) grey four door convertible that was not meant for the US. The rear view mirror flipped up like a periscope due to the huge rear stack created by the convertible top. The car had a "Dictaphone" in it, the speedo was, of course, calibrated in km/h. It was HUGE! He also had a '71 Saab 99 with "freewheeling" four speed stick, the car I learned to drive in and ended up using in high school. By then, very faded red, but fun and different from the plethora of Monte Carlos, Camaros, Mustangs, Pintos and Mavericks of friends... Dad also bought a "restored" 1964.5 Mustang convertible from a friend. From a distance, it looked fab, not so much under close scrutiny. And, after a post-purchase mechanical inspection, he was told that it was a time bomb on wheels... And, about as un-HELC as possible, a yellow w/black racing stripes Renault Le Car. Two friends and I drove the LeCar from CT to Jackson Hole, WY for a semester break ski trip. Car was an economical champ and got us through some wicked snow storms. Still the most snow I've ever seen in my life and the best seven straight days of skiing...

    Dad always wanted a BMW, a Bavaria specifically. He had friends who just loved driving them. But hated owning them, days of less than stellar reliabiility I guess back then. Mom did so like her Mercedes, though.

    And now for a sarcastic(?) moment:

    Another differnece in the LS vs. S interior is that all those lovely electronics will probably actually work reliably for the LS!

    I think the S looks much better on the road than in pix. While I absolutely hate the "Bangle-butt" (most egregious on the 6 series), it is done a little more gracefully on the S, but I'd prefer a more traditional posterior. Saw a shiny, black 2007 S today while spending the day on Cape Cod. Looked good to me...

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Doc, the trickiest stick I ever drove was actually in a Ferrari.

    I cursed more than once at its inverted 5-speed with first gear in the lower left corner. Just because it was in a Ferrari doesn't mean it wasn't goofy. It was horrible.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I think the S looks much better on the road than in pix. While I absolutely hate the "Bangle-butt" (most egregious on the 6 series), it is done a little more gracefully on the S, but I'd prefer a more traditional posterior. Saw a shiny, black 2007 S today while spending the day on Cape Cod. Looked good to me...

    As much as I like the S-Class, I would have preferred to see a little more of a streamlined graceful trunk.

    TagMan
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    Doesn't the Maserati Gransport come in a drop top? Could that be an option?

    On the cheap end, what about the new Ford Mustang Shelby cobra. I know, I know, not near as refined as the other cars were discussing, just thought I'd throw out some odd balls.

    What a dilemma you are in. It's kind of like the quandary that Mrs Blkhemi is facing on her return from overseas. The S600, or the S8. Oh the humanity
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Very nice, but I'm not all that impressed with the Tiptronic.

    I got the same impression in my Carrera S Cab tiptronic test drive. The Porsche autobox is average at best, it really doesn't befit a performance company of their stature. Porsche needs Audi's "R-tronic", and they need it now.

    I'm sorry the Jag test drive wasn't up to your expectations. I would suggest giving it one more go, if its not too much trouble. When its working properly, the Jag's gearbox is amazing. Mercedes' 7-speed is probably the most refined automatic on the road, but that doesn't necessarily make it "fun". When I test drove the SL I tried the manual mode briefly and then just left it in auto. The Jag on the other hand is all the fun of a SMG, without the drawbacks.

    The XK is a large car, but it doesn't drive that way. Its several hundred pounds lighter than the SL, and I can tell behind the wheel. Also, that size means the XK has a usable trunk. The SL has room for maybe one bag, and only a soft one.
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