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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Doesn't the Maserati Gransport come in a drop top? Could that be an option?

    Unfortunately no, the Gransport is only offered as a coupe.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Help me out with the Porsche Tiptronic 911 vs. SL550 dilemma

    Test drive again and again until you find your answer!

    The SL would get my vote. Its 7 G tronic speed transmission is the best automatic transmission offered on any boulevard cruiser/roadster. Its styling is classic. And its high tech folding roof is the best in the industry. Porsche and tipronics is like oil and water. They just dont mix.

    Why haven't you even bothered to test drive the BMW 6 Series?

    Personally I prefer small roadsters vs. boulevard cruisers and would pick a smaller and nimbler BMW 3series convertible coupe/M series but certainly not as fun as a Porshce with a stick. I think those cars are more fun to drive especially with a stick. But with a auto tranny my choice would be for a larger boulevard cruiser like the SL. Definitley the SL.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I dont think Tag is a mustang kind of guy. Also, going from an Elise to a Shelby is pretty backwards, from one of the lightest, best handling cars in the world to a big nose heavy straight-line only muscle car with a beam axle.

    A CLK AMG would be a much more logical choice I think.
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    I agree, however , every reviewer that tests it says all those things, nose heavy, not up to a stock vette's performance, but still a blast to drive.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Test drive again and again until you find your answer!

    That's what I should do.

    One other disappointment about the Porsche that was totally unexpected... The styling is certainly darn good, but as I spent time with it I realized that the front has gotten very plain in this latest rendition. There's absolutely nothing going on up front any more, and it seems a bit old in the tooth when I look at that front end.

    On the other hand the XK and the SL were stunning, IMO.

    BTW, I'm not a 'stang guy. Former owner of a Camaro H.O. 5-speed stick (years ago!)

    TagMan
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    Uhh, 0-60 in 5.7 seconds. I think someone forgot where the fun pedal was. That's by far the slowest I've ever seen that car. Their must have been something wrong with it. Yeah, all that weight on the nose, and it still out handles the benz. When is that news? It will be news when benz comes out with an AMG version that out handles anything in the class.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Why haven't you even bothered to test drive the BMW 6 Series?

    Coming out of the Lotus, which is tiny, almost anything else seems big. The Vanden Plas seems freakin' enormous on the occassional drive. BMW 6 would be too big.

    For this car, I'm after small and quick and fun... but, it's got to be smooth.

    The SL seems the likely candidate. I hope I'll have some time today to drive some more.

    TagMan
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Just back from Turkey Day in Maine at the parents house. The S600 made the trip probably the most relaxed it's ever been.

    Tag and LG. CONGRATS!!!! The Targa and XK, as you know, are in the top half of a dozen of coupes I'll be looking at next year. LG, the color scheme is nothing short of magnificent. Tag, which color did you go with?

    Merc1, thanks for the E-Class family tree. Very good history, and yes, like yourself, I'm on the hunt for the best E-Class of all time(or up until this year's E63 perhaps), the 500E.

    Houdini, I'm sorry to hear that you put so much faith into Edmunds.com reviews, ironically, the same people that dissed the now-released LS460, interestingly enough. If all the people that has interest in the S6 and the people that have bought one, then the car wouldn't have a 2 year wait period, or enjoy rave reviews from other more credible sources. I for one found the car to be the all-arounder of the 3, yes the E63 will blow it's doors off in the str8's, but the Audi will tear it to shreds in the twisties and braking, and the M5 is so not a daily driver that it should be considered for track-use only, that and it's near-impossible way to get it's 500hp.

    Dhamilton, as of now, the wife is driving the Z06. She's now in Mario Andretti mode, where it's all pedal to the metal with two doors only please. Soon, she'll need to step out onto 5th Ave, and the S600 will be summoned.

    And no, I haven't owned an Aston Martin, but the Vantage V8 is especially appealing. And in late '07, it's supposed to get as much power as the XKR(another top contender). And I've always loved the Vanquish. Such a shame the parent company is putting this gem of a company in harms way.

    BTW: I did come horrifyingly close to buying a DB5 on the auction block last year, but was outbidded by $20k. Almost.....
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,325
    Just reporting what Edmunds said blkhemi. I didn't say whether or not I agreed with it.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The article below from Chicago Tribune about the Lexus Intelligent Park Assist system reminds me of my earlier posts from January, 2006 linked below:

    LINKS from Post 12805, 12914

    lexusguy, "High End Luxury Cars" #12902, 11 Jan 2006 1:45 am

    Almost a year ago I wrote the following:

    Lexus Intelligent Park Assist system
    Notice how Lexus has to use the word "Intelligent" to describe this dumbed down device.
    Driving safety starts with the driver and when a driver becomes too dependent on a gizmo then safety will really become an issue


    Below are Paragraphs form the Chicago Tribune dated Nov. 25th, 2006:

    The advance parking guidance system makes your car the ultimate valet. Or so we thought. On a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 the easiest, we'd give automatic parking a 2, sky diving 3 and bullfighting 4.

    For starters, the system works only when backing up, vertically or horizontally, between two vehicles. So you can't use it when pulling into the space in the mall lot front-end first.

    When the gearshift is in reverse, touch the navi screen to choose vertical or horizontal parking. A backup camera shows what's behind or along the side on the screen.

    But you don't just let go of the wheel and have the car park itself. You have to pull the car into position as if parking manually, make sure the steering wheel is straight and adjust the green parking target box on the screen.

    We tried the vertical move first. A series of arrows appears on the screen to position the green box between the cars.

    The arrows don't show unless the steering wheel is straight and you're at the correct angle to back between the cars. So others in the lot have to wait for you to perform the required tasks.

    That done, the screen advises you to let go of the wheel but keep a foot on the brake. The car and steering wheel then move to park between the cars.

    But take foot off the brake and the car backs up too fast, the automatic assist stops and you're on your own to steer and/or call your insurance agent.

    Simple, if you pulled the car into proper position in the first place and adjusted the green box perfectly. If not, the car goes where the box tells it. You'll miss the other cars, but you also may miss the curb by several feet.

    Actually, backing up was relatively easy, but getting up the courage to let go of the wheel requires a few words to the Almighty. (Oprah was out of town.)

    Horizontal, or parallel, parking is trickier. Pull alongside the car ahead, fiddle with the arrows to adjust the box, then let go of the wheel

    First try we hit the green box perfectly, only the box was positioned so the car ended up about 3 feet from the curb. The system requires lots of practice--and patience.

    The system first requires you purchase park assist for $500, sonar sensor in the front and rear bumpers that set off beeps in the cabin when backing from the drive or parking and getting too close to an object ahead or behind.

    And how often do you back into a parking spot or parallel park? Three attempts to parallel park is embarrassing, but no more so than parking on the first attempt 3 feet from the curb.

    If you can't back into a parking space or parallel park without doing damage to yourself or those around you, you should be taking cabs or buses.

    link title
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    I didn't mean for this to come off as a rant to you. It's just that 98% of other publications are more or less in line with one another, except for Edmunds.

    Take the A8L W12 for instance. They found the ride to be on the bouncy side or almost Buick-like, while all others say it's one of the best in the class.

    They say that the S550's controls are just as hard to configure as the 7-Series, yet most agree that the controls aren't the most intuitive, but they're far more user friendly the daunting 7-Series and makes the old COMAND system look like an Atari compared to a PS3.

    I do agree that the S6's ride borders on stiff, but isn't that what a performance sedan offers. You won't get a comfy ride, but you'll get the ride of your life.....
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    In agreement, I can say for sure that the M5's ride is fairly rough as well. But, I've only driven the last gen [for about 20 minutes] and ridden in the new one for about the same time.

    I don't take any one evaluation as gospel. But, a few that are pretty much on the same page make sense as far as getting a balanced view.

    To be fair, the S6 never seems to get first in any that i've read. But, the acceleration #'s seems to be way off.

    It will be interesting to see what everyone says when the RS4 comes to town and blows every one up.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,325
    Got to agree with you on this one Dewey. I never liked the idea from the start. This is something you might want on a Buick.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    ...the Gransport is only offered as a coupe.

    Droptop... GranSport Spyder

    BTW, good luck with your new XK!
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The leather was nite and day better than a 90's E420, which is no excuse for having leather less appealing than a Geo Prism Lsi!

    Doc you prove you knowledge of Mercedes to be non-existent with comments like these. The leather in 90's era Mercedes was that way for durability. Tell me when you see a 90's LS or Acura on a used car lot how many of the driver's seats are cracked and split down the middle compared to a Benz of the same era. Secondly, again if you've got to go back 10 years to make a point about leather quality in a 2007 Benz you're reaching to make a point that can't and won't be made. Ridiculous.

    C&D made mention as much of the LS' influence, when they tested the 2000 S430 against the LS, in one of the LS' wins over the S-Class, as the 1999 model developed a "tropical" interior, with colors and textures reminiscent of the LS. Too bad the interior didn't function like an LS.

    Only part true, they noted the change but I don't remember Lexus being mentioned in that sentence. Oh doc I don't think you want to talk about Car and Driver right now, I'll get to that in due time.

    I have no problem saying the last S-Class was clearly better-looking than the LS was. But that script has flipped. "My Humps" is not even really close to the LS on that front now.

    Good, we disagree then. True the new S does have large wheel arches, but have you seen one with the AMG package? It blows the stylized packing crate of a LS460 into the weeds. The S-Class has prescence and a stance that no giant Toyota could ever match.

    So I guess your point is because the LS was inspired to meet, or exceed, the S from the satrt, that Mercedes couldn't possibly learn a new trick from the LS? Keep repeating that until someone believes it. That class is still in session.

    No, my point is that nothing Mercedes has done or learned from Lexus comes within 200 miles of all the blatant copying, mimicing that Lexus has done. Period. To say MB was influenced by Lexus in the interior softness seems kinda silly when Lexus up until 2007 used to transplant whole bodies from Mercedes.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    If you have the means, the S550 is the only way to go in this class. It's dazzlingly beautiful. To say the interior isn't more appealing than the LS's is like saying the Audi A8's interior isn't nicer than the 7 Series's. The S-Class has a beautifully executed interior, whereas the LS460's looks almost identical to any other sedan in Lexus's lineup. A flagship sedan is supposed to be special, different, exclusive. The S-Class, A8, 7er and even XJ all fit this rule. The LS seems to be the only one that didn't get the memo.

    Bingo. The LS has the same design and layout of a Toyota right down the shape of the center stack.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Continually throwing the ES into the converstaion is irrelevant, since the C-Class has aped the S-Class for generations, and nobody brings that up. Does the C-Class cheapen the S' looks? That plane flies both ways.

    True, I bet Lexus SC430 drivers hate this when a Toyota Camry Solara flies by. Talking about cheapening the brand. Oh wait a mintue, they're different brands. Yikes.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Merc has constantly, ad-nausium, put up pics of Mercedes evolution in exterior styling. But they are at best inconsistent on interior styling, as the 1998, 2000, and 2006 have little incommon with each other. I didn't know the wheel needed reinvention. Mercedes interiors aren't "restyled", they are thrown out and started from scratch!

    Which is how design works when you trying to keep things fresh. For years Mercedes used the same interior layout right down to the pattern of the seats, but unlike Lexus Mercedes is more forward thinking when it comes to design both inside and out. Lexus couldn't build a CLS if they tried.

    I see chinks in the armor.

    Apparentley you're about the only one.

    The S-Class is a step back, inside and out. Still a fine car and all, but nothing for Lexus to fear. Lexus has it right, and Mercedes is trying to find an interior identity, and maybe seperate it's design from Maybach, which is better (from the last S500/600)

    IYO, allow me to use a Lexus theme here: "the market has spoken and it loves the new S-Class".

    I gotta tell ya all this design commentary from you is really funny when Lexus has nothing that even evokes any passion or lust in any of their "designs". For years we have to hear ad-nausium how great the LS430 was yet it looked like the box that the IS or GS came in. How you can go from accepting a design like the LS430 to being such a critic of a brand like MB that has had "design" all over Lexus is beyond me. The new LS merely manages to look ok at best and yet it is supposed be some type of design revolution?

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Really? Just read the current Audi S6 follow-up here on Edmunds where it tried to be a BMW and/or MB but failed miserably!!

    I think he meant in terms of design. It is no secret that Audi wants to be as prestigous as MB and BMW.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    It is almost certain that the exterior and interior styling of the next generation BMW 7 Series will be emulated by both Lexus and MB in fuutre years.

    Gotta disagree with the "MB" part in there. The current S-Class has a rear end like the original Maybach concept from 1997, not the current 7-Series. The 7 came out years after the Maybach concept of 1997 so if anything..........

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Merc1, thanks for the E-Class family tree. Very good history, and yes, like yourself, I'm on the hunt for the best E-Class of all time(or up until this year's E63 perhaps), the 500E.

    There is one in the classified in the back of Autoweek right now. A 1994 model with only 8K on the clock supposedly owned by Al Unser Jr. No price listed of course, it is likely in the ridiculous for me category, but you can't beat that mileage.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Remember you said you could live with the LS placing second in a C&D comparo? Well I don't know how you're going to take this, but Autospies is reporting that in the Jan issue of C&D there is a comparo of the LS460, S550, 750i, A8, and XJ8 Super 8. The S550 placed first and the LS460 place dead last.

    As I type this I'm trying to remember that really wasn't a fair test to the LS460 because they should have used a LS460L, not the SWB LS460, but still last place? I wouldn't have guessed that in a million years. That is the same place the S430 you loved to talk down about placed.

    Now this by no means is an etched in stone impression. I still want to see the all the LWB variants compared.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Ok these are the LWB variants, the A8L, 750iL, LS460L, S550 (only comes one way, long) and XJ Super 8 so it looks like this was a fair fight afterall Doc. Some scans of the article from some of the autospies posters:

    link title
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    The official rankings:

    1st - MB S550
    2nd - Audi A8L
    3rd - BMW 750iL
    4th - Jaguar XJ8 Super V8
    5th - Lexus LS460L

    An upset of major proportions IMO. Second place I could see, but the LS460L placing last? The LS460L was 93K, only 10K less than the Benz, that may have cost it. Lexus seems to have forgotten their value price roots. Still reading....

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Ok guys, I got around to taking and uploading some pictures. Enjoy.

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  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Wow she is pretty! I don't think I've seen that color interior relationship before with the dash/seats. Is the dash supposed to be a similar color to the top?

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Is the dash supposed to be a similar color to the top?

    Actually the top is navy blue, but it appears more as a dark gray in the photos.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,325
    What a laugher. The only surprise here is that they didn't award Mercedes an extra 20 points for having the largest wheel well arches. Unbelieveably biased to the point of being ridiculous.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Only the first of many similar responses I'm sure. I guess when they put the previous LS430 and LS400 models over everything else they were right on the money? Right?

    Gotta find out what the Doc will say since these legendary Car and Driver comparo have been the meat of his "LS is superior" rants through the years and they've put the LS so highly in the past.

    The only thing they were obviously biased towards was the actual driving aspect of the cars, because on the luxury side of the equation they clearly stated the LS460L is likely the most opulent car in the class.

    A Lexus shouldn't cost 93K either, with a scant 10K seperating it from the most expensive car in the test, the Mercedes. Lexus seems to have forgotten that their price advantage was a big part of those wins in the past. I think you forgot that too while hollering "biased".

    When you think about it, a brand new LS has never faced a brand new S-Class (both new for 07') before so things have changed. No more aging S-Class models to kick around.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Unbelieveably biased to the point of being ridiculous.

    I dont think thats really true. The article was written from a performance perspective, and the LS is going to lose that race. They did mention that if driving dynamics are not a top priority than the LS would be a good choice.

    I thought some of the middle place finishes were strange, though. Last time they didnt really like the A8 or 7, and gave the XJ second place. This time they think the A8 and 7 are great.. but the cars havent really changed.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Bingo, they said exactly that. LG, the voice of reason from the opposing camp.

    I guess the location and specimen on hand accounted for the placement of the A8 and 7-Series this time around.

    I've been waiting for the A8 to get some glory from a U.S. magazine outside of the MT comparo.

    M
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    that A8 sure is long on the tooth to come in second like that. I guess it's long in the gorgeous tooth as well.

    And only 1 point between 1st and second place. well, well.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Congratulations Lexusguy!
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The S550 placed first and the LS460 place dead last.

    Great post Merc1. Following your posts is like following a chess mathch and that last post of yours is equivalent to a "Check Mate" move. The new anthem in LS forums will be : "The King is Dead, Long live the King "(in the form of the 2012 LS480) !
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,325
    The article was written from a performance perspective.

    That is exactly what I meant by the article being biased. No surprise.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Member Posts: 767
    OMG, I can't believe this is happening! How the heck do you read those scanned pages anyway, the letter are way too small?
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Member Posts: 767
    Very nice LG.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    You can enlarge the page by moving your cursor to the box with the four arrows on the bottom right side of the page.
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Member Posts: 767
    Thanks. It's a good day for German HELM fans, enjoy.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Oh c'mon GS,

    the S vs. LS vs. A8 vs. 7 Series vs. XJ has as much relevance to me as watching Monarch butterflies fluttering around during spring.

    BMW 5 series or 3 series comparisons to other models has more relevance to me since those are the two cars that are currently in my garage. And I couldn't care less even if every magazine/web reviewer thinks less of my cars since it is me the owner(including my wife) that loves these two cars.

    I am certainly not anti-Lexus. I have a friend who is a VP of Toyota Canada and he invited me over to his house at Whitby to test drive his company car which happens to be a Lexus GS450h. I am very excited about his invitation since I am very interested in the novelty of the 450h's drivetrain.

    Nor am I anti-Toyota. I was the first person in Toronto to order a hybrid Camry. But after learning about its small 10.5 cubic feet trunk space I cancelled my order.

    So this C & D article may be a victory for some, but certainly not for me.
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Member Posts: 767
    Well, the article left no room for the wars of words on this board by placing the LS last. It's like watching a close fight and one guy got knocked out :cry: .
    Of course, the review/write up represent just the writer's point of views. We all make our car buying decision based on what fit us best.
    I agree with you on the GSh. Keep us posted on your impression. I saw couple people here liking it.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    the S vs. LS vs. A8 vs. 7 Series vs. XJ has as much relevance to me as watching Monarch butterflies fluttering around during spring.

    So this C & D article may be a victory for some, but certainly not for me.


    Gosh, this is the HELC forum isn't it? It has all the revelevance in the world here.

    You're just having too much darned fun with your 3 series. ;)

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Welcome back. As you can see I was duking it out with the Doc for a while there and going it solo. I think I held our ground.

    That C&D comparo? Very interesting! I'm not really THAT surprised, if you've been reading my posts.

    BTW, you'll be interested to learn that I have decided that I will probably not be taking delivery of that Porsche Targa with the Tiptronic tranny. I didn't like the Tip.

    So, if I'm going automatic tranny here, of course I drove the XK and the SL, and my current favorite is the SL550. Gorgeous car.

    What gets me is that I suddently realized that I've never owned an SL, and I've always admired them. So, I'll be taking more time this week to drive the SL some more, and check out the different options and accessories.

    Could be an SL550 will be my next driver. I'll keep you posted.

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    That is exactly what I meant by the article being biased. No surprise.

    It is Car and Driver, not Limousine Quarterly. If their performance angle was a bias, it was at least transparent, and they were consistent with it.

    Your post made it sound like Mercedes literally paid for their first place finish.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "Helm"? What's a "helm"?

    As for the rest, get real, people.
    BMW makes the best performing vehicles across its entire sedan line. It has no competition. Protesting this fact is simply rationalization.

    How Lexus turns out the ridiculous vehicles they do should be thoroughly investigated. It's absolutely scandalous.

    I do believe the dearth of posts "over yonder" symbolizes the extreme disappointment of those who have seen and driven the new LS 460 after the manic anticipation of something wonderfully different only to be left with a familiar variation of same-old, same-old.

    I agree with a previous posting. Lexus vehicles are luxury Toyotas, plain and simple. Uninspiring like Toyotas, with some soft cushy leather seats that you can fall asleep in and some upscale wood.

    Why don't I talk about BMW's here? Simple. There is little to criticize. Beyond the iDrive and rather drab interiors, BMW's are just about perfect for lovers of driving. No foot well problems. No leg hitting the console. A perfect driving position, etc;

    Why all the LS 460 talk? Speaking for myself, I find it fascinating that Lexus can turn out such consistently uninspired vehicles year after year and still remain financially solvent.
    All I can do is shake my head in amazement.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    hpowders - now you are making sense. That's a passionate good post.

    I agree with a previous posting. Lexus vehicles are luxury Toyotas, plain and simple.

    Posted by yours truly, athough I used the words "upscale Toyotas".

    Take care,

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Yes. "upscale Toyotas" does indeed say it better.

    How Toyota/Lexus gets away with using the same exterior for most of their sedan line is beyond me.

    I would be so disappointed if shopping for an LS 460, not just for its uninspired styling, but also, how closely it resembles the Camry. The ES 350 is more of a looker given the same styling theme, and that vehicle isn't exactly awe-inspiring.

    It would also be nice to see some intelligent debating points issued from the Lexus camp, instead of the usual poison darts whose aim does more damage to the character assassins than it does to the rest of us.

    Come on folks, surely you can write some articulate points about why the LS 460 should be taken seriously by the rest of us.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Come on folks, surely you can write some articulate points about why the LS 460 should be taken seriously by the rest of us.

    'cause CR says so. ;)

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    CR will be testing the LS 460 and MB S-Class in an upcoming 2007 issue, for what it's worth, which isn't much.

    Also to be tested by CR next year will be the 2007 MDX vs the new X5. Hopefully it will be a V-6 X5 to make it a fair fight.
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    Thanks dewey, I to was having trouble Tony
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,325
    Well,if they had thrown a 5 series or even a 3 series into the mix, either one would have won this comparo hands down since all the emphasis was on performance. A Honda Civic SI would probably have done even better.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

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