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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Doc a "superior" luxury car doesn't come last place. At best it should have been 2nd or 3rd if were that convincing as a pure luxury car. What you're not seeing here is that the LS460L luxury wasn't superior enough to overcome its other flaws and on top of that it was priced at a very un-Lexus like 93K. That was only 10K less than the Benz, not the usual 15-20K. For that type of money it needs to be more well rounded. Mercedes proves that you can have better handling with a still plush ride so there is no excuse to be made there.

    The LS has been, and is still, the superior luxury car, according to C&D, and many buyers.

    Right, going by this statement and its placement that puts it in the Buick ranks based on other aspects of a "luxury car", i.e. dynamics. I mean luxury is having the best of everything or a darn good combination of it all the S-Class dit that in this test at least. This luxury advantage you speak of is based on what exactly? A softer ride, softer leather, more gadgets, 1/2 of a Maybach recliner? The LS460L was simply overpriced and outdone dynamically this time around. Why should a buyer of a 93K car have to accept a smaller trunk if they want more options? What other make does that? Not BMW, Mercedes, Audi.

    The seats were embarassingly hard. Durability is no excuse for that, as you'll know, Lexus has no problem with the durability of their leather seats. Duarable and rich. Could Mercedes pull that off? I guess not

    What I said before still stands Doc, the leather was hard because of durability back in those days and the seats being hard was/is a German car tradition. I have seen a many older LS and especially Acura Legends with cracked driver seats whether or not you believe it or not is up to you. There is nothing rich about 90s era LS400s with cracked driver seats due to all that soft leather not standing up to wear and tear. Those seats lasted forever in those old Benzes anyone can tell you that. Mercedes still doesn't make seats like a Lexus, the previous LS430 comes to mind. NO support and like sitting on a couch, hardly the ideal setup for actually driving the car, heck that seat wasn't good for anything but giving you a place to sit. Even a luxury car should have had better seats than that.

    Again, what does any of this have to do with 2007? Ditto about the LS430's awful seats, as plush as they were.

    M
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Oh, so when Edmunds tested the LS in 2000, and it had the best braking distances, more than a car length better than the $70k+ S500, did that cross the S500 off your list? Did the S500 become an unacceptable car?

    Or did you change your tune, now that the S has good brakes?

    Let me know which words you'd like to eat. :blush:

    DrFill
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    What make offers the options this Lexus does? Not BMW, Mercedes, or Audi.

    Leather needs to be conditioned and cared for. Owners who take care of their leather seats, still have great leather seats, regardless of mileage, but they can crack, and that's part of buying a car with leather seating.

    I'd rather sit on the sidewalk than sit in some Mercedes seats. If the seat is uncomfortable, chances are I'm not buying the car. I can only imagine what a cold seat would feel like, first thing in the morning. :(

    Many would rather buy a Lexus that endure a Mercedes seat. Among other things to endure.

    To each his own.

    Lexus isn't building Recaro seats, and Mercedes won't make you drop your Bentley.

    DrFill
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I’d like to know how the LS in the comparo got to $93K. Must have had the Executive Package with the rear massage parlor which probably helps account for the heaviest-in-group 4700 lbs that C&D reported. It definitely had the air suspension and variable steering so the only thing APPARENTLY missing was the Touring Package and the only difference is that it comes with the bigger brake rotors and 19” wheels as opposed to 18” on the tester. So you can’t blame handling deficiencies on the wheels. C&D should have spelled this out in greater detail. I would however raise an eyebrow at the variable steering which never was mentioned in their drive. I would imagine it makes the steering even numb-er, and neither was there anything about air suspension settings. This is one of the reasons why I don’t like C&D. Loosy goosy and fluffy, certainly in this instance.

    You bring up some good points doc but don’t expect much more out of the reviews. If R&T gets their hands on this batch the LS is in for a serious [non-permissible content removed] whoopin’ unless they completely alter their standards to account for the luxury factor. But they will never overlook the handling qualities of the Benz, Bimmer and Audi. Seems like this new S has something going for it. That gotta-have-it factor really stands out, although so does the fun-to-drive factor of the Audi.

    By the way, I drove the SWB LS on Friday which allowed a more extended test than the LWB I drove at the Taste. There’s too much preoccupation with the LWB. SWB has its own merits and the LWB is not inherently better so if anyone has their eyes on the shorter version I would continue in that direction. There really is no need to be infatuated with longer unless you need the extra rear leg room. Maybe I’ll do a review.

    One more thing. Remember how iDrive induced the wrath of the writers? Seems as if frivolous luxury could be working to the same effect with the LS this time around.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Good luck once again!
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    What make offers the options this Lexus does? Not BMW, Mercedes, or Audi.

    And they didn't count worth anything this time around did they? A half-done recliner to mimic Maybach doesn't cut it.

    Leather needs to be conditioned and cared for. Owners who take care of their leather seats, still have great leather seats, regardless of mileage, but they can crack, and that's part of buying a car with leather seating.

    True and I'd think Lexus owners would do this, but all you have to do is look on a used car lot at some older Lexi and you'll see what I mean. Compare them to the Benzes there.

    Right, and you know full well Mercedes' current seats aren't as firm/hard as their seats from 10 years ago, don't be ridiculous.

    M
  • killerbunnykillerbunny Member Posts: 141
    LOL, you guys took a magzine too seriously. C&D is just several writers who need to feed their family. The very fact that you are debating about it vigoriously made them successful.

    Vote with you money, not your words. Just like Tagman did with his Porsche.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Right, and you know full well Mercedes' current seats aren't as firm/hard as their seats from 10 years ago, don't be ridiculous.

    Didn't say the seats are the same now. This only proves my point. The seats were too hard, unappealing, and needed to be improved. Mercedes improved the seats, which makes the car better and more appealing.

    I love it when Mercedes takes my edicts to heart! :blush:

    Good job. :)

    D-man

    One more thing. Remember how iDrive induced the wrath of the writers? Seems as if frivolous luxury could be working to the same effect with the LS this time around.

    These are $100k cars. Any $100k car is frivolous! Lexus didn't make a $93k Lexus to do cartwheels.

    My general point is an LS with the Touring Pkg., optionede up to $85k still would've surpassed Mercedes luxury, and performed better in the dynamic tests.

    Lexus is pushing the features the New LS has. They are touting it as the best luxury car in it's class, and that mission was accomplished. If they wanted a more balanced car, get a car with the Touring Pkg. Simple. :confuse:

    DrFill
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Oh well, I was too darned busy purchasing a new Porsche Carrera S Cabriolet today. Yes, I did it. But, I purchased the six speed, and not the Tip.

    Good to know that you got the Porsche you wanted, rather than the one you had to settle for. You should never be "settling" for anything at that kind of price. Congrats and enjoy. I know I'll be checking out the 928 when it launches in a few years. The Carrera Cab was a lot of fun, but it was just too small for me.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    By the way, I drove the SWB LS on Friday which allowed a more extended test than the LWB I drove at the Taste. There’s too much preoccupation with the LWB. SWB has its own merits and the LWB is not inherently better so if anyone has their eyes on the shorter version I would continue in that direction. There really is no need to be infatuated with longer unless you need the extra rear leg room. Maybe I’ll do a review.

    Maybe you should do a review. In fact previous C & D Lexus LS victories over the MB S Class were achieved in SWB form.

    I am willing to wager that if a 62K$ SWB LS460 was used in the Jan. 07 C & D comparison test then the LS would have preserved its number one rank over the MB S Class, Audi A8, BMW 7 and Jaguar XJ.

    Why? Because of price!

    In prior years price played the biggest role in making the LS stand out against the Germans and that one solo Brit called the XJ. If an overpriced and ostentatious Lexus LS460 LWB was not used in this latest comparison test then I can almost assure you that the LS would rank number one again.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    There were many inconsistancies in this report. They called the fit and finish on the LS "flawless", yet it scored lower than the S.

    Inconsistencies? You do realize the number results are averaged out among the group of testers while the comments were made on an individual basis by each tester. Just because one tester uses the word flawless about the LS does not mean that all the other testers will agree with him or her. Nope there are no inconsistencies in this case.

    Well,if they had thrown a 5 series or even a 3 series into the mix, either one would have won this comparo hands down since all the emphasis was on performance. A Honda Civic SI would probably have done even better.

    Really? In what way does a Honda Civic SI outperform a BMW335i?
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Really? In what way does a Honda Civic SI outperform a BMW335i?

    Please don't go there.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I would never consider a car whose brakes are not at or close to the top of its price category. One of the major reasons I feel secure in BMW's.

    Back in the day, I wasn't considering the S500. If the braking distances weren't good, as you maintain, then surely, I would have had no hesitation in crossing the S500 off my list.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Re: "The seats"

    I sank just as deeply in the S550's driver's seat as I did in the LS460's.
    Neither seat will appeal to serious drivers.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    The brakes in this pre production mule were obviously not set up to specs. Once they test a full production model LS I have a feeling you are going to have to live a long time with all you have been saying about brakes and how important they are to you. I will be making a personal effort to remind you from time to time. :)

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    I found the brakes to be quite grabby at the "Taste" Otherwise, I thought the car was very well done as far as it doing what it does. Give a Buick like ride with more sophistication, and technology. It's, no brakes, no brakes, ooops there goes the starbucks.

    Man, some of you guys just aren't happy unless everyone agrees with you. It's like the Bush regime calling everyone un-American, and lacking moral fiber that doesn't agree with the war.

    The new LS is a great vehicle, and more people in the US want it more, than any other luxury car. Toyota is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and the collapsible whoopy cushion. [According to my extensive research, they used to not be collapsible.] :blush:
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Many times when you drive a car for the first time there will be things that you are not used to. I have driven cars that had much more sensitive brakes than I was used to but in a short while they felt fine.

    Perhaps you and hp just need to hone your driving skills. I know my grandmother used to drive like that. She also thought everything had grabby brakes but in reality it was just her lack of skill and "touch". ;)

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "All you have been saying about brakes...I will be making a personal effort to remind you..."

    You can keep reminding me until you get callouses on your fingertips, but you will never brake me! :P
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    And how, pray tell, would you know that the Car and Driver LS460 test vehicle's brakes "were obviously not set up to specs"? :confuse:
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    "Them's the brakes" was very funny. You should have left it there!

    (Man, you can rewrite a post totally - you got me on that yesterday. :))
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I always seem to do that. One poster responded to my latest post a few months ago (I believe it was Tagman) and I made a revision and then deleted the post, all before he finished answering me!

    Why didn't I leave "them's the brakes?" What is wrong with me?? :confuse:
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    C&D very briefly states that the LS was a "pre production" vehicle, so it was not an off the lot ready to go LS.

    That plus the fact that if they were set up to specs the LS obviously would have won in the brakes category. ;)

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    But the thing is once they have tested the vehicle, they will not re-test it with a "real" one.
    So:

    if you are interested in the LS460, I would say go to the dealer and drive a "real" one. I would concentrate on braking hard from various moderate to high speeds. If you are right, the car should be okay.
    If I am right...it brakes my heart to even think about it! :cry:
  • esfesf Member Posts: 1,020
    Are you even on AutoSpies? Like posting?

    I do. It's a horrific website. I love it.

    '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
  • esfesf Member Posts: 1,020
    "I think many if not most LS drivers can afford an S Class."

    That's where you're wrong. The LS430 was about $30,000 less than a comparably equipped S-Class.

    I can't afford an S550 4Matic (and it's a little too big), and I'm getting my wife an A8 4.2 quattro SWB! We wouldn't consider the LS because...

    1. It's a Lexus. She has a Lexus now, and doesn't want another one.

    2. It's very bland to look at (yes, the new one!)

    3. It doesn't offer AWD

    We were considering the XJ8, but that doesn't offer AWD either, and the A8 simply puts it to shame in terms of execution (interior design, attention to detail, technology, etc). Another reason to be an Audi guy.

    7er is too pricey (easily overreaches $80K- base 750i is now $75,000) and too sporty (more of a CEO-ish car than a housewife car).

    The A8 is perfect for her. It has a backup camera (she wouldn't be able to live without it; she has her RX with one), AWD, a classy exterior, a gorgeous interior and an ultra-smooth ride. We were very impressed. I may be stealing it a few times this year (we're ordering it custom built in January).

    '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    One poster responded to my latest post a few months ago (I believe it was Tagman) and I made a revision and then deleted the post, all before he finished answering me!

    I remember that. You left me in the dust, that day.

    Oh well, no suprise ... you 5-series guys are quite used to leaving other guys in the dust, aren't you? ;)

    TagMan
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Dang, you did again!! :P

    FWIW, I have found the "preview" feature to be quite useful. You can edit to your heart's content without actually posting anything until it looks like you want it to look.

    But, truth be told, I can't say I never edit after exhausting the preview... :blush:
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Why should a buyer of a 93K car have to accept a smaller trunk if they want more options? What other make does that? Not BMW, Mercedes, Audi.

    Merc1,

    I can see you are not in the market for a brand new hydrogen BMW 760i. The trunk space of this car is equivalent to the trunk space of a MB SLK. The hydrogen tank takes up humugous trunk space.

    Now how about BMW performance? The BMW V12 engine is tuned to produce a maximum output of 260 hp in order to achieve 60MPH in 9.4 seconds.

    This hydrogen 7 Series is the antithesis of a luxury/performance sedan just like the Lexus LS460L or any Buick is the antithesis of a performance sedan.

    hydrogen BMW 760i
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    How is it my Canadian friend seems to know so much about BMWs?

    I suppose owning a cool one helps, huh? ;)

    BTW, I don't want to go off-topic, but since you brought up a hydrogen 7-Series, the latest Honda FCX seems to have solved the space/placement issue that will otherwise ruin the Bimmers trunk space.

    These vehicles will be evolutionary and I can't imagine who would buy one in the initial years.

    TagMan
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    These vehicles will be evolutionary and I can't imagine who would buy one in the initial years.

    Yes I can think of quite a few.

    Like the people who live within or nearby your neighborhood in LA. I am sure there are many Hollywood celebrities just dying to own the latest environmentally-friendly hydrogen vehicles.

    The Honda FCX makes much more sense to me. If BMW is serious about hydrogen vehicles they should apply it to a vehicle that is not as self-indulgent and grandiose as a 760i. A 760i is a vehicle that is completely inconsistent to the needs of a pro-green gas frugal driver.
  • esfesf Member Posts: 1,020
    "I am willing to wager that if a 62K$ SWB LS460 was used in the Jan. 07 C & D comparison test then the LS would have preserved its number one rank over the MB S Class, Audi A8, BMW 7 and Jaguar XJ. "

    Hmm... well, wouldn't it make sense that the others would be SWB too? This excludes the S550, because it's only offered in LWB on our shores.

    And, by the way, It actually doesn't start at $61-62K as Lexus says. That just makes the car look like a better value. However, the least expensive option package, which you MUST select on the Lexus website (they won't let you buy an LS460 without an option package), brings the vehicle up to $67K. That puts it squarely in A8 territory. Also, a loaded XJ8 is less expensive than the base price of the $69K A8 and about the same as a base LS460 ($68K). The 7 Series, on the other hand, is the car I see as the biggest ripoff in the group. $75,000 base for what, exactly? A badge? It's both incompetent and very gauche in this company. Whoever buys a 750i over an A8 or LS460 is out of their mind. You have to really want the handling- and even there, the A8 equals and/or surpasses it. According to most car mags, at least.

    I think the only players in this class are the LS, A8 and S-Class. With the money the S-Class commands, it's off my list. I'll be getting a 911 in a few years (probably just a Carrera Cabriolet- the S shaves 0.2 seconds off the acceleration for $10,000!), so I want to save up. I'd probably end up getting an A8 (which I am getting the wife, as I previously stated), because I drove it, and it offers a splendid balance between exquisite luxury and a small-car sporty feel.

    '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330

    Oh, and... I don't think a SWB would've made all the difference for the LS to be in the #1 spot. In the article, they LOVED how the rear seat was so luxurious. I actually think it would've gotten less points if it was a SWB test.
  • esfesf Member Posts: 1,020
    It's not actually a 760i. It's the size of the 760Li's V12 (they don't offer the SWB 760i any more- noone bought it -what's the point of it anyway?), but has only 260hp because hydrogen is so new. It's not as self-indulgent as you think.

    However, I wouldn't get one loaned to me if I could. A GS450h would be so much easier, if less efficient.

    '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Sorry about that. I am rarely satisfied with my first "draft." :blush:
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    No leaving you in the dust with that handsome, exciting Carrera!

    Saw quite a few 911's over Thanksgiving. All lookers.
    Best of luck with it!
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    How appropriate that your Grandmother drove a Lexus with grabby brakes, since Grandmother's are the Lexus core customer. It would be nice to think that the problem was me and to be sure, I'm no Dale Jr. However, since none of the other cars had grabby brakes, my money is on the.. well..Lexus has grabby brakes. No conspiracy theory here as we've seen this reported before.

    Now, I reported that I thought the LS was a very fine car, and If it were my money, it would be in the garage long before the 7 series. But it's still the car that appeals to my head and not to my heart. Or to put it like you described, the Grandmother in me would have to come out in order for me to have anything with the L on the hood.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "Grandmother's (sic) are the Lexus core customer."

    With comments like that, you will be putting me out of business! :surprise:
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    He described it perfectly. My Grandma used to drive cars with touchy brakes. Well we all know what cars those are.

    All in fun Houdini........
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Better car for this comparison:

    A 750i or M5?

    Since performance is so heavily-weighted at this time, why not? The 5 still doesn't have a stick, so it's basically a very fast slushy, just like the others. Just a lot faster! :surprise:

    Eye sore one today, in deep Blue. So Boss! MUCH more appealing than the 7. Nite and day.

    DrFill
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Hey, don't get so defensive. Just learn how to drive and you will have much more fun!!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    Your just at odds with yourself. Learn how to drive a Lexus and it will be fun?

    I had a great time at the "Taste" The food was great. I had a blast driving the S. Hey, does your Grandma do reviews for Edmunds?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Oh, and... I don't think a SWB would've made all the difference for the LS to be in the #1 spot. In the article, they LOVED how the rear seat was so luxurious. I actually think it would've gotten less points if it was a SWB test.

    I doubt it. It made one hell of a difference a few years ago. And despite everything the LS is a substantially better car than a few years ago.

    think the only players in this class are the LS, A8 and S-Class.

    All 5 cars on this list dont excite me at all. I am not into oversized bling. The car I would pick beyond the 5 would be....(please refer to my next post)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Better car for this comparison:

    A 750i or M5?


    A M5 definitely. I would pick a manual M5 over any of those HELCS on the C&D list. The next generation M5 will hopefully be my future family car.
    My future empty nester car will hopefully be a Carerra S as Tagman had just bought.
    So DrFill I am 99.999% certain that you yourself would prefer owning a manual BMW M5 over a Lexus LS460L. C'mon DrFill confess and say the truth and nothing but the truth! ;)
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Just go take your meds and lick your wounds. It will feel better tomorrow. It's all just good fun.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Didn't say the seats are the same now. This only proves my point. The seats were too hard, unappealing, and needed to be improved. Mercedes improved the seats, which makes the car better and more appealing.

    Doc you never had a point to begin with. You brought up a seat in a car that was designed in the 80's. The only thing you've shown here is Mercedes' progress. A S-Class seat is supposed to be plush, now go sit in a CLK or any other lower level Benz and you'll see that most of (not all) of that firmness is still there. Mercedes' seats used to have their own "suspension" and they were part of the ride, but things change and that change was primarily brough on by cost. Again anyone who owned an older Mercedes will tell you this.

    I didn't make any comment about idrive so you've misquoted me yet again. That was someone else.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I am willing to wager that if a 62K$ SWB LS460 was used in the Jan. 07 C & D comparison test then the LS would have preserved its number one rank over the MB S Class, Audi A8, BMW 7 and Jaguar XJ.

    Why? Because of price!


    Bingo! Their will likely be another round of comparos when the S450 comes out and it will be against the LS460 (no L).

    In this case of this comparo on this day, a 93K Lexus that doesn't have the driver skills that it should come with considering it carried a premium over the Audi and BMW couldn't cut it. A 10K price advantage isn't one at this level, now Lexus' usual 15-20K or more price advantage would have put it higher up in the rankings I think but still not the winner with the other issues they found which had nothing to do with it being a pre-production model.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I sank just as deeply in the S550's driver's seat as I did in the LS460's.

    Well all behinds vary...lol! Neither seat is supposed to appeal to a "serious driver", but I did find that S550 seat was a tad bit better. Considering what mush the LS430's seats were anything in the LS460 would be an improvement.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Many times when you drive a car for the first time there will be things that you are not used to. I have driven cars that had much more sensitive brakes than I was used to but in a short while they felt fine.

    To be fair this is true. I found the brakes in my CLK to be grabby and hard to modulate at first, but now I'm a pro at it.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Are you even on AutoSpies? Like posting?

    Heck no. I have never seen a bigger group of clueless people (on both sides of the aisle) in my life. I like to read it sometimes in order to appreciate Edmunds and Germancarzone, but thats about it. I'd never post there.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    To tell you the truth I don't understand the point of the car, but there it is a slow V12 BMW. Pardon me while I walk out across the interstate.

    Won't this thing explode if hit hard from the rear?

    M
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Well, I would eliminate both the the S-Class and LS460, based on the too soft driver's seats, but you are correct. These HELC's are designed more for pampering. Serious drivers need not apply.

    The A8 driver's seat was better than the S or LS-comfortable but firmer. If I was shopping for a HELC (instead of a 335i coupe), it would come down to the BMW 7 vs the Audi A8.
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