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Comments
The LS has been, and is still, the superior luxury car, according to C&D, and many buyers.
Right, going by this statement and its placement that puts it in the Buick ranks based on other aspects of a "luxury car", i.e. dynamics. I mean luxury is having the best of everything or a darn good combination of it all the S-Class dit that in this test at least. This luxury advantage you speak of is based on what exactly? A softer ride, softer leather, more gadgets, 1/2 of a Maybach recliner? The LS460L was simply overpriced and outdone dynamically this time around. Why should a buyer of a 93K car have to accept a smaller trunk if they want more options? What other make does that? Not BMW, Mercedes, Audi.
The seats were embarassingly hard. Durability is no excuse for that, as you'll know, Lexus has no problem with the durability of their leather seats. Duarable and rich. Could Mercedes pull that off? I guess not
What I said before still stands Doc, the leather was hard because of durability back in those days and the seats being hard was/is a German car tradition. I have seen a many older LS and especially Acura Legends with cracked driver seats whether or not you believe it or not is up to you. There is nothing rich about 90s era LS400s with cracked driver seats due to all that soft leather not standing up to wear and tear. Those seats lasted forever in those old Benzes anyone can tell you that. Mercedes still doesn't make seats like a Lexus, the previous LS430 comes to mind. NO support and like sitting on a couch, hardly the ideal setup for actually driving the car, heck that seat wasn't good for anything but giving you a place to sit. Even a luxury car should have had better seats than that.
Again, what does any of this have to do with 2007? Ditto about the LS430's awful seats, as plush as they were.
M
Or did you change your tune, now that the S has good brakes?
Let me know which words you'd like to eat.
DrFill
Leather needs to be conditioned and cared for. Owners who take care of their leather seats, still have great leather seats, regardless of mileage, but they can crack, and that's part of buying a car with leather seating.
I'd rather sit on the sidewalk than sit in some Mercedes seats. If the seat is uncomfortable, chances are I'm not buying the car. I can only imagine what a cold seat would feel like, first thing in the morning.
Many would rather buy a Lexus that endure a Mercedes seat. Among other things to endure.
To each his own.
Lexus isn't building Recaro seats, and Mercedes won't make you drop your Bentley.
DrFill
You bring up some good points doc but don’t expect much more out of the reviews. If R&T gets their hands on this batch the LS is in for a serious [non-permissible content removed] whoopin’ unless they completely alter their standards to account for the luxury factor. But they will never overlook the handling qualities of the Benz, Bimmer and Audi. Seems like this new S has something going for it. That gotta-have-it factor really stands out, although so does the fun-to-drive factor of the Audi.
By the way, I drove the SWB LS on Friday which allowed a more extended test than the LWB I drove at the Taste. There’s too much preoccupation with the LWB. SWB has its own merits and the LWB is not inherently better so if anyone has their eyes on the shorter version I would continue in that direction. There really is no need to be infatuated with longer unless you need the extra rear leg room. Maybe I’ll do a review.
One more thing. Remember how iDrive induced the wrath of the writers? Seems as if frivolous luxury could be working to the same effect with the LS this time around.
And they didn't count worth anything this time around did they? A half-done recliner to mimic Maybach doesn't cut it.
Leather needs to be conditioned and cared for. Owners who take care of their leather seats, still have great leather seats, regardless of mileage, but they can crack, and that's part of buying a car with leather seating.
True and I'd think Lexus owners would do this, but all you have to do is look on a used car lot at some older Lexi and you'll see what I mean. Compare them to the Benzes there.
Right, and you know full well Mercedes' current seats aren't as firm/hard as their seats from 10 years ago, don't be ridiculous.
M
Vote with you money, not your words. Just like Tagman did with his Porsche.
Didn't say the seats are the same now. This only proves my point. The seats were too hard, unappealing, and needed to be improved. Mercedes improved the seats, which makes the car better and more appealing.
I love it when Mercedes takes my edicts to heart!
Good job.
D-man
One more thing. Remember how iDrive induced the wrath of the writers? Seems as if frivolous luxury could be working to the same effect with the LS this time around.
These are $100k cars. Any $100k car is frivolous! Lexus didn't make a $93k Lexus to do cartwheels.
My general point is an LS with the Touring Pkg., optionede up to $85k still would've surpassed Mercedes luxury, and performed better in the dynamic tests.
Lexus is pushing the features the New LS has. They are touting it as the best luxury car in it's class, and that mission was accomplished. If they wanted a more balanced car, get a car with the Touring Pkg. Simple. :confuse:
DrFill
Good to know that you got the Porsche you wanted, rather than the one you had to settle for. You should never be "settling" for anything at that kind of price. Congrats and enjoy. I know I'll be checking out the 928 when it launches in a few years. The Carrera Cab was a lot of fun, but it was just too small for me.
Maybe you should do a review. In fact previous C & D Lexus LS victories over the MB S Class were achieved in SWB form.
I am willing to wager that if a 62K$ SWB LS460 was used in the Jan. 07 C & D comparison test then the LS would have preserved its number one rank over the MB S Class, Audi A8, BMW 7 and Jaguar XJ.
Why? Because of price!
In prior years price played the biggest role in making the LS stand out against the Germans and that one solo Brit called the XJ. If an overpriced and ostentatious Lexus LS460 LWB was not used in this latest comparison test then I can almost assure you that the LS would rank number one again.
Inconsistencies? You do realize the number results are averaged out among the group of testers while the comments were made on an individual basis by each tester. Just because one tester uses the word flawless about the LS does not mean that all the other testers will agree with him or her. Nope there are no inconsistencies in this case.
Well,if they had thrown a 5 series or even a 3 series into the mix, either one would have won this comparo hands down since all the emphasis was on performance. A Honda Civic SI would probably have done even better.
Really? In what way does a Honda Civic SI outperform a BMW335i?
Please don't go there.
Back in the day, I wasn't considering the S500. If the braking distances weren't good, as you maintain, then surely, I would have had no hesitation in crossing the S500 off my list.
I sank just as deeply in the S550's driver's seat as I did in the LS460's.
Neither seat will appeal to serious drivers.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Man, some of you guys just aren't happy unless everyone agrees with you. It's like the Bush regime calling everyone un-American, and lacking moral fiber that doesn't agree with the war.
The new LS is a great vehicle, and more people in the US want it more, than any other luxury car. Toyota is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and the collapsible whoopy cushion. [According to my extensive research, they used to not be collapsible.]
Perhaps you and hp just need to hone your driving skills. I know my grandmother used to drive like that. She also thought everything had grabby brakes but in reality it was just her lack of skill and "touch".
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
You can keep reminding me until you get callouses on your fingertips, but you will never brake me! :P
(Man, you can rewrite a post totally - you got me on that yesterday. )
Why didn't I leave "them's the brakes?" What is wrong with me?? :confuse:
That plus the fact that if they were set up to specs the LS obviously would have won in the brakes category.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
So:
if you are interested in the LS460, I would say go to the dealer and drive a "real" one. I would concentrate on braking hard from various moderate to high speeds. If you are right, the car should be okay.
If I am right...it brakes my heart to even think about it!
I do. It's a horrific website. I love it.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
That's where you're wrong. The LS430 was about $30,000 less than a comparably equipped S-Class.
I can't afford an S550 4Matic (and it's a little too big), and I'm getting my wife an A8 4.2 quattro SWB! We wouldn't consider the LS because...
1. It's a Lexus. She has a Lexus now, and doesn't want another one.
2. It's very bland to look at (yes, the new one!)
3. It doesn't offer AWD
We were considering the XJ8, but that doesn't offer AWD either, and the A8 simply puts it to shame in terms of execution (interior design, attention to detail, technology, etc). Another reason to be an Audi guy.
7er is too pricey (easily overreaches $80K- base 750i is now $75,000) and too sporty (more of a CEO-ish car than a housewife car).
The A8 is perfect for her. It has a backup camera (she wouldn't be able to live without it; she has her RX with one), AWD, a classy exterior, a gorgeous interior and an ultra-smooth ride. We were very impressed. I may be stealing it a few times this year (we're ordering it custom built in January).
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
I remember that. You left me in the dust, that day.
Oh well, no suprise ... you 5-series guys are quite used to leaving other guys in the dust, aren't you?
TagMan
FWIW, I have found the "preview" feature to be quite useful. You can edit to your heart's content without actually posting anything until it looks like you want it to look.
But, truth be told, I can't say I never edit after exhausting the preview...
Merc1,
I can see you are not in the market for a brand new hydrogen BMW 760i. The trunk space of this car is equivalent to the trunk space of a MB SLK. The hydrogen tank takes up humugous trunk space.
Now how about BMW performance? The BMW V12 engine is tuned to produce a maximum output of 260 hp in order to achieve 60MPH in 9.4 seconds.
This hydrogen 7 Series is the antithesis of a luxury/performance sedan just like the Lexus LS460L or any Buick is the antithesis of a performance sedan.
hydrogen BMW 760i
I suppose owning a cool one helps, huh?
BTW, I don't want to go off-topic, but since you brought up a hydrogen 7-Series, the latest Honda FCX seems to have solved the space/placement issue that will otherwise ruin the Bimmers trunk space.
These vehicles will be evolutionary and I can't imagine who would buy one in the initial years.
TagMan
Yes I can think of quite a few.
Like the people who live within or nearby your neighborhood in LA. I am sure there are many Hollywood celebrities just dying to own the latest environmentally-friendly hydrogen vehicles.
The Honda FCX makes much more sense to me. If BMW is serious about hydrogen vehicles they should apply it to a vehicle that is not as self-indulgent and grandiose as a 760i. A 760i is a vehicle that is completely inconsistent to the needs of a pro-green gas frugal driver.
Hmm... well, wouldn't it make sense that the others would be SWB too? This excludes the S550, because it's only offered in LWB on our shores.
And, by the way, It actually doesn't start at $61-62K as Lexus says. That just makes the car look like a better value. However, the least expensive option package, which you MUST select on the Lexus website (they won't let you buy an LS460 without an option package), brings the vehicle up to $67K. That puts it squarely in A8 territory. Also, a loaded XJ8 is less expensive than the base price of the $69K A8 and about the same as a base LS460 ($68K). The 7 Series, on the other hand, is the car I see as the biggest ripoff in the group. $75,000 base for what, exactly? A badge? It's both incompetent and very gauche in this company. Whoever buys a 750i over an A8 or LS460 is out of their mind. You have to really want the handling- and even there, the A8 equals and/or surpasses it. According to most car mags, at least.
I think the only players in this class are the LS, A8 and S-Class. With the money the S-Class commands, it's off my list. I'll be getting a 911 in a few years (probably just a Carrera Cabriolet- the S shaves 0.2 seconds off the acceleration for $10,000!), so I want to save up. I'd probably end up getting an A8 (which I am getting the wife, as I previously stated), because I drove it, and it offers a splendid balance between exquisite luxury and a small-car sporty feel.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
Oh, and... I don't think a SWB would've made all the difference for the LS to be in the #1 spot. In the article, they LOVED how the rear seat was so luxurious. I actually think it would've gotten less points if it was a SWB test.
However, I wouldn't get one loaned to me if I could. A GS450h would be so much easier, if less efficient.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
Saw quite a few 911's over Thanksgiving. All lookers.
Best of luck with it!
Now, I reported that I thought the LS was a very fine car, and If it were my money, it would be in the garage long before the 7 series. But it's still the car that appeals to my head and not to my heart. Or to put it like you described, the Grandmother in me would have to come out in order for me to have anything with the L on the hood.
With comments like that, you will be putting me out of business! :surprise:
All in fun Houdini........
A 750i or M5?
Since performance is so heavily-weighted at this time, why not? The 5 still doesn't have a stick, so it's basically a very fast slushy, just like the others. Just a lot faster! :surprise:
Eye sore one today, in deep Blue. So Boss! MUCH more appealing than the 7. Nite and day.
DrFill
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I had a great time at the "Taste" The food was great. I had a blast driving the S. Hey, does your Grandma do reviews for Edmunds?
I doubt it. It made one hell of a difference a few years ago. And despite everything the LS is a substantially better car than a few years ago.
think the only players in this class are the LS, A8 and S-Class.
All 5 cars on this list dont excite me at all. I am not into oversized bling. The car I would pick beyond the 5 would be....(please refer to my next post)
A 750i or M5?
A M5 definitely. I would pick a manual M5 over any of those HELCS on the C&D list. The next generation M5 will hopefully be my future family car.
My future empty nester car will hopefully be a Carerra S as Tagman had just bought.
So DrFill I am 99.999% certain that you yourself would prefer owning a manual BMW M5 over a Lexus LS460L. C'mon DrFill confess and say the truth and nothing but the truth!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Doc you never had a point to begin with. You brought up a seat in a car that was designed in the 80's. The only thing you've shown here is Mercedes' progress. A S-Class seat is supposed to be plush, now go sit in a CLK or any other lower level Benz and you'll see that most of (not all) of that firmness is still there. Mercedes' seats used to have their own "suspension" and they were part of the ride, but things change and that change was primarily brough on by cost. Again anyone who owned an older Mercedes will tell you this.
I didn't make any comment about idrive so you've misquoted me yet again. That was someone else.
M
Why? Because of price!
Bingo! Their will likely be another round of comparos when the S450 comes out and it will be against the LS460 (no L).
In this case of this comparo on this day, a 93K Lexus that doesn't have the driver skills that it should come with considering it carried a premium over the Audi and BMW couldn't cut it. A 10K price advantage isn't one at this level, now Lexus' usual 15-20K or more price advantage would have put it higher up in the rankings I think but still not the winner with the other issues they found which had nothing to do with it being a pre-production model.
M
Well all behinds vary...lol! Neither seat is supposed to appeal to a "serious driver", but I did find that S550 seat was a tad bit better. Considering what mush the LS430's seats were anything in the LS460 would be an improvement.
M
To be fair this is true. I found the brakes in my CLK to be grabby and hard to modulate at first, but now I'm a pro at it.
M
Heck no. I have never seen a bigger group of clueless people (on both sides of the aisle) in my life. I like to read it sometimes in order to appreciate Edmunds and Germancarzone, but thats about it. I'd never post there.
M
Won't this thing explode if hit hard from the rear?
M
The A8 driver's seat was better than the S or LS-comfortable but firmer. If I was shopping for a HELC (instead of a 335i coupe), it would come down to the BMW 7 vs the Audi A8.