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High End Luxury Cars

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  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I'm telling you guys that Lexus is no different from anyone else when it comes to listing curb weights. The S550 is listed at 4465lbs at MBUSA.com but in the C&D test it weighed 4680lbs - 215lb difference, not as much as the Lexus but still. Options and a full tank of gas adds weight and C&D weighs car on testing day instead of just publishing manufacturer specs. This time though they did round them for some reason.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I doubt they'll be that expensive. In the case of the IS-F we'll have to see what the upcoming C63 AMG costs first. ;)

    Lexus could have used some more imagination when coming up with the name of the division though. I mean really, "F" for fast, that just screams lame. At least Cadillac has "V" for Victory (over who though isn't known).

    M
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Victory for Cadillac?

    Surely not in the TV commercial dept:

    "Walk straight ahead. Turn left. Destination ahead."

    LOL!!
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    I think Lexus should spend less time on creating bad commercials (although Cadillac's condescendingly stupid navigation spot is the worst auto commercial I have ever seen) and more time on getting their numbers straight.

    Lexus makes the best HELC commercials, by a considerable margin, and has since 1989. Companies like Audi and Cadillac dream of capturing the essence of the cars the way Lexus does in it's advertising.

    More signs of desperation are evident when questioning Lexus credibility.

    Numbers, like 0-60 estimates, have been verified, since the LS tested by MT did 5.7 with 200lbs of options and fuel.

    Variations in test sites, track condition, and option level will easily cause changes in numbers. I guess I'll just make this a weekly addendum to my posts, since this hasn't penetrated the forum fully.

    DrFill
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Member Posts: 767
    Snow can never stop me from buying RWD. But fortunately I live in a city with no mountains

    True, I would not have AWD either on my main car, but I have it on my utility Subie just for those snowy days in our area.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Merc,

    but this is exactly where the plot thickens. Financially what would be the best sceario for Piech? Wouldn't it be a weakened and desperate VW that ends up selling Audi at a fire-sale price to Porsche. If that happened Piech's stockholdings in Porsche would immediately shoot up in value.

    In otherwords having a Porsche scion ruling VW is like having a fox ruling a hen house. VW has done some very self-destructive things lately while Audi has done some very smart things lately. Is that mere coincidence when it is in Piech's interests to buy a healthy Audi from its sickened parent VW?

    Piech and his descendants will be better off owning a Porsche-Audi automotive group verus a smaller niche company called Porsche.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Lexus makes the best HELC commercials, by a considerable margin, and has since 1989. Companies like Audi and Cadillac dream of capturing the essence of the cars the way Lexus does in it's advertising.

    Not enough commercials in mind to even debate that, but I do know Lexus makes the most annoying, irritating, shallowest, lamest holiday commercials in the business.

    Numbers, like 0-60 estimates, have been verified, since the LS tested by MT did 5.7 with 200lbs of options and fuel.

    True, the SWB model seems to get closer to the published numbers, but no LS has yet to get to that magical 5.4 sec 0-60 time yet, neither long or short.

    M
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    True, I would not have AWD either on my main car, but I have it on my utility Subie just for those snowy days in our area.

    If my wife's BMW 5 series Touring was available with RWD we would have picked RWD. We both drove RWD cars for decades and we encountered no problems with snow or ice.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    You make some very good points. I just can't adjust to the idea of Porsche running Audi.

    VW would be in a lot of trouble if they let go of the only division they have that makes any real money.

    M
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I just can't adjust to the idea of Porsche running Audi.

    Me either.

    At this moment when Audi is making its ascention in the U.S. market, it would be downright stupid to mess with Audi right now, IMO.

    Audi is clearly on a global roll, and the best medicine right now is the one Audi is already aware of and we've previously discussed here...expand the consumer's awareness of Audi. The rest will take care of itself, because the products are very, very good.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    If my wife's BMW 5 series Touring was available with RWD we would have picked RWD. We both drove RWD cars for decades and we encountered no problems with snow or ice.

    In the winter here, the only way we get to the snow is to drive to the Sierras surrounding Lake Tahoe. Gorgeous, massive amounts of snow, and world-class skiing/snowboarding.

    While I am in no condition to ski or snowboard this winter, my family looks forward to it and the only way to avoid mandatory chains is to have an AWD/4WD vehicle. It's like a free ticket to go, and it works very well in snow and ice without the otherwise required chains.

    My opinion of an SUV is that it might as well be 4WD for those occasions that require it. Even in the rain, and other normal poor weather, when I am not driving I just like the idea of the wife and kids being in a vehicle that provides maximum traction in slippery conditions.

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Ok, you lost me on this one HP. Since when does a Lexus anything cost MORE than a BMW? Your complaining about theoretical Lexus prices when an M6 can break what, $110K? Is that what you call a bargain? The only thing more outrageous than Motorsport prices is Quattro Gmbh prices.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Well what do you think the price range will be for those high-powered performance machines? I do think they will be quite high. We'll see.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    The scariest drive I ever had was back in the 1980's-moving through the Sierras-uphill, downhill and sidehill, completely on ice, in a blinding snowstorm skidding every few feet, going about 3 miles per hour with "no wheel drive" and no chains, going to Lake Tahoe. How I didn't hit anything, I'll never know.
    That's the place the new MDX should be road tested.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    In your case and in the case of other people(like GS2001) there is a need for AWD or RWD.

    In our case winter driving consists of 60 percent downtown driving and 40 percent suburbia driving in order to visit family, friends and Costco. We never plan winter road trips to rural or mountainous areas and I discontinue my NASCAR-type driving during icy conditions. So for us AWD/4WD is irrelevant.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I discontinue my NASCAR-type driving during icy conditions.

    :D
    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I'll be shocked if the IS-F costs more than the V8 M3. Same goes for GS-F and the M5. As for the name, I'm not really a fan of "F" either. I dont get what was wrong with IS500 GT. That has a nice ring to it. Another better possibility would've been IS500r, to go along with the "h" series. i know a lot of automakers use "r", but thats because it sounds good.

    Hopefully if\when Infiniti follows suit, they'll keep the Nismo badge, rather than making something up.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    76,050 people, 159 car models from 36 manufacturers-It's the U.K.'s biggest independent car satisfaction survey.

    Top Gear Survey 2005- Each of the 76,050 viewers and readers who took part in our survey this year were asked to reveal how every aspect of the car ownership experience matched up to the expectations they had when they first took delivery of their vehicle. Each car is given an overall satisfaction score out of 100. This is made up from:

    Build quality 22%
    Craftsmanship 22%
    Driving experience 19%
    Ownership costs 17%
    Customer care 20%

    Data analysis experts from Experian checked personal data and registration numbers to avoid faked entries. All cars included were built between 2002 and 2004.

    If you want to see all the different results go to topgear.com

    Here are some of the results pertinent to this board.

    Overall Manufacturers Positions 1 thru 36

    1. Lexus
    8. Porsche
    9. Jaguar
    10. BMW
    13. Audi
    31. Land Rover
    32. Mercedes

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Well at least with BMW, you can get a subsidized lease to ease some of the pain, which you cannot do with Lexus vehicles.
    Seems like Lexus wants you to buy their vehicles and BMW wants you to lease.
    Whatever works. I'm happy to continue leasing BMW's-only no more 3 year leases. Perhaps the 335i coupe is next for 2 years and then a BMW diesel after that.
    It's a tough life, but someones' got to do it! :)
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    All cars included were built between 2002 and 2004.

    We're into the 2007 model year already. While the results are certainly interesting, they are ancient history.

    Just look at some of the major shifts and significant changes in the results of other studies over the years, and you can appreciate that these results basically offer little relevant validity at this late date, and only have historical value... or should I say hysterical value? ;)

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Perhaps the 335i coupe is next for 2 years and then a BMW diesel after that.
    It's a tough life, but someones' got to do it!

    What a great idea! Who could find fault with that?

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Well if the BMW diesels get here soon enough, I may have to bypass the 335i coupe.

    Across the pond they have raved about the 335id coupe with the caveat that a new and more powerful BMW diesel coupe is due next year!

    The only time I need AWD down here is after my kitchen floor tile has been washed and I lose my traction.

    T..I..M..B..E..R...!!!
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Wrong. The point of the test was to give the people time to live with these cars for a couple of years. Car owners can't immediately tell how well the car performs until they have owned it for a few years. The actual survey was done 1 year ago. If you want to predict the future, look at the past.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    If you want to predict the future, look at the past.

    True, houdini... but, as you know, only to a limited degree when it comes to cars and certain technology. The innovations of technology and their relationship to automobiles is at an all-time high and will probably go even further, thus creating a situation where there is little to no previous footprints.

    Trends, however, do seem to rise above the other ever-changing factors, and we can, therefore extrapolate a general sense of which brands ought to do well and which ones will more likely have issues.

    BTW, I do appreciate the info, and your efforts to post it.

    I just always take those studies with a big grain of salt, as you probably already know. I cancelled my subscription to CR, for example, long ago.

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Edmunds has caught the IS-F 500 testing at the Nurburgring. According to them, it has 425hp, the 8-speed auto will be the only transmission, and the price is supposed to be around $50K. As we've suspected, it seems they are aiming at the C63 rather than directly at the M3, which I'm sure will have a MT.

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/GeneralFuture/articleId=118182?tid=edmunds.- il.home.photopanel..1.*
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Edmunds has caught the IS-F 500 testing at the Nurburgring. According to them, it has 425hp, the 8-speed auto will be the only transmission, and the price is supposed to be around $50K. As we've suspected, it seems they are aiming at the C63 rather than directly at the M3, which I'm sure will have a MT.

    A little off-topic, but interesting. The other little tidbit I picked up from the spy video was that the 8-speed will have paddle shifters. A small percentage may prefer that over the M3's stick, but the M3 ought to be safe, IMO.

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Well $50k isn't bad, but an 8 speed auto tranny? And that's it?
    They won't be able to compete with that exclusively in the high-performance arena, IMO.
    All serious performance vehicles I know of may offer an auto tranny to the pretenders, but always offer a great manual tranny to the serious drivers.
    Wonder why they are playing it safe?
    Disappointing.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Houdini,

    with all due respect these results merely confirm what we all already know. . Lexus has consistently won consumer satisfaction surveys for almost 17 years by not one surveyor but various surveryors like JD Powers, Consumrers Report, Strategic Vision and last but not least Top Gear.

    Kudos for Lexus!

    I knew these results for years and chose a BMW instead. Why?
    Because I dont need a customer survey to tell me what car will satisfy me. In fact I am most happy being a auto survey contrarian and so far cant imagine driving any other car then what I am driving today.

    Currently I need a new fridge and I will be looking at surveys. In the case of fridges my happiness will be determined by surveys.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Perhaps the 335i coupe is next for 2 years and then a BMW diesel after that.

    How about a 335i sedan?

    Let us do a swap deal. Your BMW 550i for my BMW 335i?
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    All serious performance vehicles I know of may offer an auto tranny to the pretenders, but always offer a great manual tranny to the serious drivers.

    By that definition, AMG vehicles are not "serious performance vehicles". So, the IS-F will have some company.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Not enough commercials in mind to even debate that, but I do know Lexus makes the most annoying, irritating, shallowest, lamest holiday commercials in the business.

    You forgot wildly successful!

    At this point, if Lexus sold less than 35k this month, it would be a surprise.

    I guess 30-35k this month, and 350k this year are rather lame and shallow luxury car buyers.

    Do you think Audi, BMW, and Mercedes need to work on being just that lame? And shallow?

    Audi commercials. Those are lame! :lemon:

    Success is never lame. Unless it gets too predictable. Than Lexus may indeed be truly lame. I guess I see your point. ;)

    DrFill
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I am a perfect candidate for the coupe because I have no kids living at home. Besides, it is, IMO, the coolest looking BMW at the present time. Even known Bangle-bashers who post here have been moonlighting ( read: salivating) on the 335i thread and they ain't talkin' sedan.

    If you had the coupe, I would indeed be interested. I do miss the dynamics of the incomparable 3-Series. The 545i is nice, but I do believe I would find the 335i coupe entirely more satisfying.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    If you had the coupe, I would indeed be interested. I do miss the dynamics of the incomparable 3-Series.

    That is why my wife is driving the 5 series wagon. I prefer smaller cars and the 3 series is a perfect size for my family. My kids are still young and my wife is petit and I am 5 '9 ( 5'10 if you include my pointy hair). :shades:
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Correct. A performance vehicle can only be taken seriously by true enthusiasts if it is offered with a manual transmission.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Well I can't quite imagine you with pointy hair :surprise: , but I do miss my 3 Series.

    The only fly in the ointment would be if my wife hounds me to death to get the new MDX instead, but I intend to put up a solid wall of resistance. Maybe it will work this time...for the first time. :sick:
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Just passing along info Dewey. It wasn't necessarily meant for you. If you have no interest then I would suggest that you ignore it.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Automatic transmissions are for pretenders.

    Oh c'mon Howard when I was a younger (just a few months ago) I used to preach those very same words above. But I can assure you if you ever test drive a car with a DSG tranny you may end up changing your mind real fast.

    I do row my own gears myself but I will not go so far as to call every auto tranny driver a pretender.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Just passing along info Dewey. It wasn't necessarily meant for you. If you have no interest then I would suggest that you ignore it.

    Oops I forgot-- what info are you referring to again? :P
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    My remarks were really directed at the high-end performance cars, such as the Porsche 911. I just can't see compromising that great performance with a tiptronic.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    As Tagman found out a Tiptronic Porsche will make a potential buyer look elsewhere. Fortunately his doctor was reasonable and allowed him to have a stick. Those are the kind of prescriptions I love.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    A good move. Once you enter the sports car realm, I do believe a manual is mandatory.

    For an every day driver, the way many BMW's are used, I have no problem with the steptronic. It's a practical decision.

    I wouldn't expect anyone to purchase a 911 for crawling along in bumper to bumper rush hour traffic.

    The word "pretender" was really meant to classify drivers who buy high-end sports cars and compromise them with automatic transmissions. Sorry for not being clearer.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Definition: Any car with a high-performance engine that CANNOT be mated to a manual transmission.

    Given the "advancements" of our society, the automatic transmission is not only expected, even on sports cars, but a mandatory option, to make a business case for production budgets.

    It is when they are THE ONLY option, that is when you no longer have a sports car, you have a neutered race house.

    Power is nothing without control.

    DSG is a fine option, but cannot replace a manual. You are still relinguishing control of the vehicle.

    As we get older, we are more willing to give up control for convenience, in the car, at home, whatever.

    I'm not whipped yet, at home, or by Father Time.

    People under-35 aren't buying IS-F, or other such vehicles. Those who've reached "The 2nd Plateau", married, with kids, will sell out to a more convenient option.

    How much fun is a fast car with an automatic? I haven't met one yet that would match the intrique of a manual. EVERY CAR is more enjoyable with a manual, with a few exceptions (due to a poorly made clutch/gearbox). EVERY CAR is more convenient with an automatic.

    Everyone who drives a Corvette with slush is a poseur. Period! If you can't/won't drive the car, get something that you can handle.

    I have no respect for the IS-F, C63, or any other poseurmobile without a real transmission for performance. It is a total waste of an drivetrain. I don't see the point, except to court those who can't/won't drive. Which is fine, but don't alienate the market for that vehicle at the same time.

    DrFill
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    What makes this chart most interesting is the lack of customer retention for Infiniti which happens to be the lowest among the luxury bunch. Jaguar has a lousy customer retention level too. Audi, Porsche, Acura, Land Rover are below average.

    Toyota knocked Lexus off its number one position. BMW and MB have pretty good customer retention levels.

    image
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    EVERY CAR is more enjoyable with a manual, with a few exceptions (due to a poorly made clutch/gearbox). EVERY CAR is more convenient with an automatic.

    EVERY CAR except a HELC sedan! :P
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    HELC aren't offered with a manual, so they are excluded.

    DrFill
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Dewey, with all due respect this survey merely confirms what we all already knew...

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    That Toyota/Honda/Lexus doiminate the top 3?

    I am surprised Infiniti, Audi, Chrysler, and VW are so poor. Reliability has been a problem at VW/Audi. Infiniti has no real excuse. Chrysler makes good stuff, and many are very durable vehicles.

    DrFill
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Thanks for the chart. A very good showing by BMW, just behind Japans's big 3.

    And to think I was just about to waste a day test driving Isuzus!
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I think you mean test driving Isuzu. There's only one left. :)

    It technically isn't Japan's big three, only the biggest two. Nissan is just average. I'm very surprised that Honda did so well, while Acura stunk up the place. I think the fact that the TL has been their only strong car in the last two years or so probably has a lot to do with that.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Here’s Ward's 10 Best Engines for 2007 at a glance (vehicle tested in parenthesis):

    Audi AG 2L turbocharged DOHC I-4 (Audi A3)
    BMW AG 3L DOHC I-6 (Z4 3.0si)
    BMW AG 3L turbocharged DOHC I-6 (335i)
    DaimlerChrysler AG 3L DOHC V-6 turbodiesel (Mercedes-Benz E320 Bluetec/Jeep Grand Cherokee CRD)
    DaimlerChrysler AG Hemi 5.7L OHV V-8 (Chrysler 300C)
    Ford Motor Co. Duratec 35 3.5L DOHC V-6 (Ford Edge/Lincoln MKX)
    Ford Motor Co. 4.6L SOHC V-8 (Mustang GT/Mustang Shelby GT)
    Mazda Motor Corp. 2.3L DISI turbocharged DOHC I-4 (Mazdaspeed3)
    Nissan Motor Co. Ltd. 3.5L DOHC V-6 (Infiniti G35)
    Toyota Motor Corp. 3.5L DOHC V-6 (Lexus IS 350)

    Do you notice the lack of HELC engines on the list?

    The two cars that are in my garage are equipped with two different engines on the list: A BMW 3.0L twin turbo i6 (BMW335i) and a BMW 3.0L i6(BMW 530xi Touring). I guess that coincidence is all due to my very good taste in fine cars. :shades:
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