High End Luxury Cars

wishnhigh1 · December 2002

footie is correct, the days of mechanical innovation is over, its all about electronics and materials now. MR is a great innovation, and I havent heard anything bad about it, but I do realize its shortcomings.

First of all, it only modifies damping rates, it does not control release rates, IIRC. Also, it does not modify spring rates, only the shock absorbers. The spring rates, in combination with the damping factors, are really what gives that "European Ride" so I dont see how the shocks alone are going to help too much.

You also have to consider that suspension geometry, car weight distrobution, torque to the wheels, etc all affect handling to a great degree, and there is no one single fix that will dramatically change a cars dynamics on the fly.

Its a good innovation, but the rest of it needs to be there before we get to your idealogical car utopia, footie.

footie · December 2002

You are of course, right. There's much room for improvement in many areas of handling.

Without going to far into la-la land, I would expect that almost everything in a suspension that is 'fixed' today, like link lengths and geometry, gets a good hard look for becoming variable and smart.

On the MR shocks, if I understand your comment correctly, they do control both jounce (compression) and rebound (expansion).

It's also the case that in the Vette and STS, the roll, dive and pitch are controlled better by the use of these shocks. For example in the case of pitch, you can stiffen both ends of the vehicle at the same time having the front resist nosediving and the rear resist uplift. You can carefully control the ratio of these two to get the desired effect.

With older technology, the shocks are dumb and can't tell the difference between the wheels falling in a pothole or the front of the car nosediving. The systems based on (electro) or standard mechanical valving reacts the same way to both events. It doesn't matter whether they are air or liquid based.

sysadb · December 2002

An impressive innovation, Footie. When you made the original post describing that the oil changed thickness properties in order to control damping, I was puzzled as to how the oil could continuously change "real time" in the milliseconds needed to manage the system. Now I see - the oil doesn't actually change; it blends with an iron particle "additive" regulated by computer controlled coils. Slick...

DB

markcincinnati · December 2002

What are some of the opinions regarding Audis A8 air suspension efforts (presumably on the upcoming A8 and S8 a couple years later?)

I now have 3500 miles on a new allroad and I assume that the allroad was a bit of a mule for Audi to test some of the air suspension technologies on. Of course the allroad does not have a dynamic suspension -- it IS active but it does not act except when told to -- and never rapidly (other than the ride height reductions that happen "automatically" at certain speeds -- the faster you go the lower it goes, that is).

I would assume that if an air suspension could be made to be both active and truly dynamic -- in real time (or close -- perhaps 10 times per second) it would be (or perhaps could be) "better" than other suspensions, e.g., fluid filled, etc.

Anyway, what do you anticipate Audi will do with their S8 (in 2005 perhaps) with respect to the suspension systems.

I bought a new 1997 A8 and ordered an S8 suspension for it from Joe Hoppen -- and even though it was a "conventional" suspension, the A8 with S8 underpinnings (and tires and wheels, too) was one of the best riding and handling cars I have ever had, even to this day.

Thoughts, dreams?

wishnhigh1 · December 2002

do you still have it? Can I have it?:)

markcincinnati · December 2002

Traded the 97 A8 in on a 99 A6 2.8, traded that on a 2000 A6 4.2, then on a 2001 A6 4.2 and November of this year traded the A6 4.2 in on an 03 allroad.

The 2001 A6 4.2 -- all possible options except CD changer IS still avail at my dealership (36K miles on it).

e-mail me and I'll give you the salespersons name, etc.

Generally I get rid of my cars before 40K miles -- the allroad MAY make me change my mind, especially if they cancel the car as of 2004.

I got the allroad with a 36 month lease, most of the other cars were 30 months or less (the 99 A6 had a 12 month lease).

The A8 was a very nice car, but it had a 5spd NON-tiptronic transmission, pearl white, all options (at the time) and Plus tires (245 45 17 PZeros) -- hard to believe a car as big as an A8 could run (in my opinion) pretty well with my 2001 A6 4.2 with sport suspension option. Of course the 2001 A6 did in many ways rival the 1997 A8 (remember the 97 A8 was NOT the long wheelbase).

merc1 · December 2002

There is no "link" to those coments on the GM's suspension technology at Autoweek the negative coments they had were about the STS in one of these "Car Board" sections that they have every week. They (and Motorweek) were saying that ride goes from hard/soft too fast with little ground in between. Motorweek said that about the 2003 Aniv Corvette during a recent roadtest.

M

ljflx · January 2003

Boy - these cars couldn't be more different. The new Rolls is so-oooo tall and classic looking and the Maybach so sleek and low profiled. I like both but have a prefernce for the Rolls. It's the more classic high-end upper crust style but regardless MB will have no problems at all selling out the Maybach's.

merc1 · January 2003

Funny thing is that neither the Rolls or the Maybach look as good as the current Bentley Arnage. I like the Maybach better than the new Phantom. This new "Roller" is ugly from the front and the interior is a busy mess.

M

jagboyxtype · January 2003

I think the new Rolls reminds me of a Mack truck, and the lines are too heavy-handed to be graceful. The grille is straight off of those new big-rigs you see on the freeway all of the time. If you replaced the gille bars with the Dodge cross-hair grille, it might resemble a Dodge Ram pickup. It seems tall enough. And the headlights are right off of an 80's Cadillac. Did I mention it had iDRIVE... At least there's no "flame" styling. Looks like Rolls will have to put up with the shipping crate jokes that Volvo used to have to take.

ljflx · January 2003

Agree - the Bentley is the best looking car out of them all. Looked closer at the Rolls and Maybach today and changed my mind. There is something special about the Maybach and that interior is spectacular. I love a lot of high quality wood (which is why I like the LS430 interior so much) and the Maybach is loaded with it and it's interior looks like it has all top shelf materials and is very stylish to boot. I assume MB will take the S interior to a higher level by 2006 - on the coattails of the Maybach.

By the way the pics I've seen of the new 5 series - if they are representative - are absolutely terrible. MB should clean-up with the E vs. that thing and if Lexus makes the GS more stylish it will also put some hurt into BMW.

The comments that BMW makes about the 7-series - that people will have to come to appreciate its style (I guess because they think they cannot do anything wrong) - are the most absurd I've ever read. I guess we will soon be reading the same thing about the 5-series. The question I have is who is paying off Chris Bangle - MB, Lexus or both.

merc1 · January 2003

BMW has become a great center of worry for German car fans as of late. I too have seen the pics of the next 5-Series, and while I'm willing to wait until the actual car in shown, I'm still worried.

On the flipside of that, the 7-Series just had it's best sales year ever in the U.S. So somebody (?) likes the 7-Series' look.

I'm going to Detriot in 12 days so I'll see the Maybach and Phantom then.

ljflx,

Yep, the next S-Class is supposed to be closely related to the "Bach", interior and all. My only worry is that they'll try to make it look like a smaller Maybach. I don't want that.

M

wishnhigh1 · January 2003

Absolutely incredible. With only a few minor visual tweaks, we have a car that will rival the ultra lux brands, maybe even surpass. I know style-wise, there is no ultra-lux car that looks better than this car.

From what I have been reading on various forums, this praise is pretty much universal as well.

merc1 · January 2003

I have to admit that it is impressive. The interior more so than the exterior. Problem just like the Cien, Cadillac will never build it.

M

wishnhigh1 · January 2003

he had the balls to build the viper and the prowler when nobody was expecting those to be produced.

I think he will do well with GM, he has finally gotten GMs management to consider Cadillac worthy enough to have their own R&D department again.

The Cien, while cool, did not recieve as universal of praise as this car has in the last few days. I think the Cien has a limited production possibility, but wouldnt be suprised if it wasnt produced. The Sixteen, however, has everything to do with the new marketing scheme and target demographic that Cadillac is after, and I wouldnt doubt for a second that it wouldnt be produced.

Well just have to wait and see.

merc1 · January 2003

Oh I agree he does, but he won't. The Cien got the same exact praise last year, the Sixteen is no different. Both where cheered and lusted after, but in the end GM realized the obvious. Cadillac still has a long, long ways to go before charging 250K for a car.

That said I like the Sixteen, as I did the Cien.

M

wishnhigh1 · January 2003

it may be a bit before its time. We do need a suitable replacement for the Deville and Seville and possibly the Eldorado before a high end car like this can start building lust and prestige in a brand.

merc1 · January 2003

What I want is for Cadillac to produce a S/7/LS/A8 competitor in the DeVille replacement. That would be the best way for them to get a hold of the big-buck market. The XLR will be the immediate test of how much people are willing to pay for a Cadillac.

I admit Cadillac is in a tough spot, because business-case wise it doesn't make sense to dump the DeVille, or not to at least to offer a car of it's type (traditional). It's a iffy thing for them. It'll be interesting to see how they play it.

M

fjk57702 · January 2003

The Deville should stay in the lower end price range. A Fleetwood 60 special could become an S-class style car. This car should be a sigma chassis vehicle and since the volume will not be significant, it would not reduce the CTS/STS/SRX output much.

mariner7 · January 2003

If they can, I'm sure Caddy & Lincoln want to have models in all market segments to compete, like you guys suggest. But, unlike MB & BMW, they're not global brands. That makes a big difference. When BMW comes out with a new model, they sell it and recoup the investment all over the world. When Caddy comes out with a new model, they sell it mostly here in North America.

That's why Caddy & Lincoln were so eager to go global a few years ago. But Lincoln had to abandon last year. If Caddy is serious, it has to shell out billions of dollars for dealerships, repair shops, training etc. even before it can sell any cars.

That's one dilemma Caddy & Lincoln face. To be fully competitive, they have to go global. But to go global requires huge investments that they can't make now. Now Lincoln can share development costs with Jaguar, but the combined Lincoln/Jag is only a fraction of the size of MB or BMW.

kd6aw1 · January 2003

After owning many high end cars which included American and German I bought my wonderful Infiniti G35 sedan. It is by far the most satisfying car I have ever owned. Is fun to drive, reliable, very fast is very smooth and comfortable and has all the goodies including nav. and xenons. Have gotten more favorable comments on it by friends than anything I have owned including a Porsche which was the most troublesome of all. This car is a keeper! All this satisfaction in a $34,000. car. Infiniti has a real winner here. Yesterday a friend with a new Mercedes S500 was admiring it and thought it was great. This tells me that more money spent doesn't really mean more value or pleasure. Maybe we get a little wiser with age!

Paul
El Cajon, California

diploid · January 2003

If this is to rival the ultralux brands, should GM still use the Caddy name on it?

If even Mercedes has to revive the Maybach name to challenge RR and Bentley, I think GM should try the same (if they're serious about building the 16).

jagboyxtype · January 2003

Caddy wants to become "The Standard of the World" again. In order to do so, it wants its name on its supercars. Everyone knows Mercedes made the Maybach, but they didn't name it a Mercedes because they felt Mercedes didn't have the name to challenge Rolls Royce, and would thus loose sales because of perception. But since everyone knows it was made by Mercedes (and it looks quite like one), I for one think the rename had no effective purpose. If Mercedes can build a great car like the Maybach, why not get credit for it? Perception would simply rub-off on its other models. Cadillac has taken the route of building a 16 cylinder car to help its perception and reputation. Sales are not the car's main goal as much as improving brand image, while the Maybach was made simply to take sales from Rolls and Bentley.

fjk57702 · January 2003

was a trophy that cadillac won around 1910 for making a car with interchangable parts. This trophy was won in England and European cars were generally made from custom parts (not interchangable). "standard of the world" had nothing to do with "high end luxury".

magnetophone · January 2003

This may be true, but it's fairly obvious that Cadillac meant to construe the phrase "standard of the world" as high end luxury or quality, as they used it for their slogan for decades. My guess is that the buyers were not concerned with what kind of parts the car had or what trophy it was awarded.

fjk57702 · January 2003

Back around 1910, European's had to take their cars back to the factory to have replacement parts hand made and fitted to their cars because interchangable parts could not be made. That was the whole point of the trophy at the time.

Cadillac in the following decades used the trophy for advertising purposes that muddied the real meaning of the prize. But the old saying is that those who do not understand past history are bound to repeat it.

footie · January 2003

So if we don't get it, does that mean we have to take Cadillacs back to the factory for handmade parts? ;=)

fjk57702 · January 2003

What it means is that Cadillac farms out its advertizing to some firm that has no clue, but is happy to use anything in some clever way to make the client look as good as possible.

I should add that Cadillac did not market Cadillacs in England in the early 1900's nor did then enter the 3 Cadillacs that won the Dewar trophy into the contest. This was all done by an independent car salesman who happened to like Cadillacs.

http://home.iag.net/~middlebr/dewar.html

magnetophone · January 2003

Ironically enough they still can't sell Cadillacs in england after almost a century!

fjk57702 · January 2003

I think that they did sell a few back then. Now even the Roll Royce doesn't sell in England.

decentguy2000 · January 2003

Hello everyone,
It is my 1st time posting a message.I am planning to buy a used Q45 with 220k on it.but there is a problem with the car.when i press on the gas pedal it wont accelrate.The dealer told me that it needed a new oxygen sensor.He is giving me a good deal on the car.otherwise the car is in good condition.my question to everyone is that what could be wrong and is it a good deal?...thank you

JBaumgart · January 2003

If that's all it is I would think that the dealer should be willing to replace it before selling the car. If replacing the sensor does not solve the problem, then you'll know it's something more serious, in which case I would suggest that you look for a different vehicle.

aggie76 · January 2003

Another alternative is to get an independent mechanic to evaluate the problem. I've done that with several used autos on dealers lots and never had dealers complain with making the sale contingent on the mechanical inspection. With the glut of used cars on the market I would hope they'd love to move this one too.

bluestar1 · January 2003

Car won't move and the dealer says its an O2 sensor ? Suspicious to me. If it is JUST an O2, why was it not fixed prior to the car being put up for sale ? A Q with 220K Canadian miles (= 137,500 miles) is a whole lotta miles .... What year is this car ? It is your decision, but I'd do more checks before pulling the trigger on this deal, or better yet, just walk away from it. There are far better deals, and better cars than the Q. How about a fairly used Lex, or Merc ? Much better cars for the money IMO.

Good luck.

saltysam · January 2003

Any well organized "decent" dealer would have fixed this and any other minor issues before placing the car on the lot. Somthing sounds a bit odd. I'd look elsewhere.

merc1 · February 2003

Been away for a while, well fear not I'm back.

The Detroit Show was a true delight. I have never seen so much luxury and power on display.

The stars of the show were the Cadillac Sixteen, Maybach 62 and Rolls-Royce Phantom.

I missed my chance to sit in the Rolls by "that much" This is huge and elongated car. The interior is much nicer in person than it is in the pics on the net. The Rolls faithful will be pleased.

The car my friends and I voted "most needed to be built" is the Cadillac Sixteen. Too bad I don't have a reliable digital camera, I got some great shots of the V16 engine. Cadillac would truly be worldclass if they built anything like the Sixteeen.

The Maybach nearly generated a riot with people jumping up on the platform trying to get closer to it. The Maybach's magic is in it's interior, because truthfully the Cadillac Sixteen and Bentley Arnage look much better out the outside. Maybe the smaller 57 model will look better proportioned, it wasn't there.

There was some surprises for me. I actually liked the Infiniti FX45 and the G35 Coupe. I'll definitely have to give the G35 Coupe a test drive when the time comes.

Lexus isn't going to be able to meet demand for the RX330, it looks a lot better than the RX300.

BMW's 7-Series continues to draw a lot of attention at the show and sales (2002 sales were much better than 2001). I don't really get it, but ok.

Mercedes is putting 4Matic on every model that has more than 2 doors. The new SL600 was there and according to it's spec sheet it has a 6-speed automatic, I'm going to predict that this new 6-speed auto will become standard across the range, or at least for all S, CL, SL and E Class cars for 2004.

The Audi A8 didn't make the heart flutter like it should have. It almost to "conservatively-handsome" for it's own good. It does though have the best interior of the big three German luxury sedans. I just doesn't look as good as a S-Class on the outside. I won't go into detail about how bad I want an RS6.

Cadillac's XLR was like the Audi A8 somewhat of a disappiontment. It's too square and blocky, just doesn't have the look of a 75K car.

Ferrari, Aston-Martin, and Lamborghini drew the usual ooohs and ahhhs.

The Bentley Continental GT isn't a looker either, now that I've actually seen it. It's interior isn't up to the Arnage's standard either. I heard other people saying the same thing, so who knows.

Thats pretty much it on the luxury front at Detroit.

M

carnaught · February 2003

Thanks to our reporter on-the-job.....

footie · February 2003

Thanks!

merc1 · February 2003

Any of you guys want to chip in so I can get to Geneva by March 4th?

M

carnaught · February 2003

....what's so great about the Cadillac Sixteen besides the power that none of us would ever come close to utilizing if it was a production car? It's 16+ inches longer than a production Deville and looks like a garish Eldorado, a really ugly C-pillar. Then again, I've not seen it in person.

ljflx · February 2003

I was starting to worry where you were, my friend. Excellent (and very objective) write-up. I agree on the Sixteen (Cadillac has to build it) and am wondering why you think Lexus will have a hard time meeting demand on the new RX330.

I thought you'd come around on the G-35. Lastly -any excitement about the FX-45. What do you think of it?

merc1 · February 2003

Well I don't know if you've noticed, but I'm the type that likes big-engined, heavy, GT type cars. The Cadillac Sixteen's engine alone is a about as gross-excess I've ever seen. A THOUSAND hp!! Unbelievable. I was also taken by the cars interior, very subtle, but very rich. The rear end does look like an Eldorado, true....but hey the car won't be built so I'm somewhat less critical on that because in the end it doesn't matter.....the car had so much else that was "right" about it. I was just taken by the whole presentation of the car.

ljflx,

It's been kinda quiet around here lately I see. Well I figure Lexus will have trouble with meeting demand for the RX330 because even I thought it looked much better than the previous RX300.
The Infiniti FX45 was another surprise. I've already seen one on the road around here. It has the 1920's gangster look about it, you know the short, stubby, fat cars they used to ride in. In short I like it. I got a detailed, hands-on look at Detroit. This crossover is truly just that, and should be a bit hit for them.

The only thing Infiniti isn't getting totally "right" is the interiors of these cars, the G35 Coupe deserves a better interior, with less of the tacky aluminum-look plastic. Other than some interior issues and the sort of longish-looking wheelbase I think the G35 Coupe will make my short list when the time comes.

Infiniti seems to be alive now. All they need to do now in order to complete their makeover is a work on the Q45 and quit marketing it as a sports sedan (thats what the M45 is for) and something to replace the truly boring (but fast) M45.

M

mariner7 · February 2003

What did you think of new XJ? If A8 was bit of a disappointment design-wise, this must be a big one! Do you think Jag can dig out from its current troubles? X Type's not selling because no one wants to pay $40K for a Mondeo-based car. S Type just placed last in a C&D comparo!

Did you see the SRX? I wasn't too impressed by pics of the sheetmetal and interior!

I heard a new M45 is coming within about a year. Even though it's new to the US market, the identical Gloria has been in Japan for quite a while. And it shows, as you said!

merc1 · February 2003

Well to tell you the truth I really couldn't get a good detailed look at the new XJ. Though from what I saw of it looked just like the old car, only larger. Jaguar only had one on a stand and it was all silver, you know that pure aluminum look. The one on the floor was crowded by people so there was no chance to get a "perspective".

I've been on record for being critical of the X-Type. That said I think it's a decent car, but doesn't truly live up to the Jaguar theme of exclusiveness. Jaguar will try and tell you that they made it awd for an advantage, but the truth is that was done to keep it from being fwd. AWD just doesn't fit the Jaguar image. Nobody is thinking tough, winter, go-anywhere car when driving a Jaguar.

The way I've always seen Jaguar is a small exclusive brand...well Ford doesn't want that, they want Jaguar to be a volume brand. Jaguar was never meant to be a "volume" shop on the same scale as Mercedes, BMW or the Japanese brands. Jaguars were always the type of car you either liked or didn't.

I have no problems with the S-Type, as a matter of fact I'm quite fond of it, having done some seat time in a S-Type R. The 2003 model is so much better than the 2000-2002 model.

I'll have to see the new A8 on the street to make my final judgement. I didn't like the exterior of the SRX at all. I couldn't see the interior, they only had one on a stand.

M

rcf8000 · February 2003

I don't think the public is ever going to fully accept aluminum bodied cars. Too difficult to repair. Otherwise, I think the new XJ is a big improvement over the old one. (Even if the styling is back to the old Series III look.)

jagboyxtype · February 2003

The new XJ's panels "hang" off the car though, so that they can easily be replaced since the aluminum allow (aluminum alone would not hold the voluptuous shape of the Jag) is difficult to repair dents from. The A8 doesn't have this feature, which is why it may not have been accepted.

merc1 · February 2003

You guys see Edmunds roadtest of the Bentley Arnage? As much as I love the new Maybachs, Bentley still has the better interior skills when it comes to woodworking. Those interior shots are unbelievable.

M

footie · February 2003

Hi Merc1,

That shot of the birdseye looking maple is gorgeous.

My temptation would be to buy a Benz instead and put a small, birdseye maple extension on the house, fill it with leather furniture, a good stereo and a GPS system and maybe have a few K left over.

;=)

jstyle · February 2003

Anyone see this news? MB is releasing a 612hp bi-turbo V12 version of the CL600. I have a E500 and can't imagine what over 300hp more would do to performance, especially in a heavier car. Holy cow!

merc1 · February 2003

Mercedes has gone nuts. I don't see the CL65 coming to America though, it'll probably be a Europe only car like the SL73 was. I would gather a 600hp CL was needed to combat the 550hp Bentley Continental GT. What I'm waiting for is something else from Maybach.

M

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